Angliskiot zbororvi so poteklo od Makedonija
Angliskiot zbororvi so poteklo od Makedonija
DJ_SHEMA Dosta interesen tekst. Bash pred godina i pol so Obi i nekolku drugi Makedonci zboruvavme za ovaa tema i gi spomnavme Pat, Voda, Tri, kako nekoi od zborovite koi se chini imaat Makedonsko poteklo, a se naodjaat vo Angliskiot rechnik. Musings on the Macedonian Language by Odisej Belchevsky November, 2003 If someone were to tell you there are words in the English language (as well as other European languages) that have their roots in Macedonian it might sound unusual and you may not readliy accept the idea. After much study, however, I have analyzed some 2000 words and my work indicates they are related to the Macedonian language. I have gone back to 1500 BC and confirmed the existence of Macedonian words in Europe's most ancient writings -- The Homeric Poems. I have found words with roots in Macedonian that lead to other words. Many are actual language concepts with their structure in Macedonian. They form, or are part of, "families of words." These concepts do not exist in English, German or French, but are found in the so-called Slavonic languages. How many are even aware that in 2003 the World Association for Rock Art Inscriptions established Macedonia as having the world's highest number of stone carvings and inscriptions since prehistory? As part of my studies I have created a rule for establishing the roots of a word by the use of what I call "functional etymology". In simple terms, most words can be explained by finding their family and related or "sister" words and then searching for their functional meaning in practical life. I have taken a number of years to test this rule and proven it in many instances. In official Oxford sources the root of many English words is given as "of unknown" or "obscure" origin. However, by using the Macedonian language some of them can be explained. I have talked to linguists about this but usually their comments are evasive as they try to avoid the subject. There is not a single linguist in the Western world I know of that has done any related studies. Let me make it clear that I am not talking here of universal words such as radio, tank, television, radar, coffee, laser, etc. I am talking about basic, fundamental words like: water, watch, wade, warden, book, trek, shire, path, meek, divine, odometer, etc. This, of course, is only a tiny example. When comparing these words with Macedonian words I had to go back and use the Old English and Old Germanic forms in order to acquire the proper meaning. I discovered that the older form is usually closer to the Macedonian meaning. Let me offer a few examples that explain how we can find the meaning of a word, its family relations, its roots and concepts: Water - Wota - Woda - Voda Water (Voda) conceptually derives its name because it is a liquid and moves. When we pour it, it takes the lead or moves ahead and creates its own path. By simply observing nature we see that rivers move and flow. These rivers, if large enough, are used as natural paths and roadways. In Macedonian this word is important and at the root of the concepts of movement and leading as well as other related words. This is the "key" that unlocks the meaning of many other words and concepts. Voda (Water) relates to vodi meaning to lead or to carry. From here we have odi - to go, to travel, to move. This contains two fundamental word particles in Macedonian that indicate movement or displacement. These are: "od" (from), and "do" (to) and together they create oddo (od + do) that again leads to "odi" meaning to go, to travel, to move. These particles are always used when describing movement, from one point to another. Thus we get the following: Voda - vadi, vade, navadi, livada (a moist or green pasture). Note here the English term "wade" which means to move in water. Vodi - to lead Vodach - leader Voditel - leader Vodici - Holy day associated with water Vodenje - leading Voden, Vodensko, etc., place names of wet regions Navodni, navadi - to water Uvod - the beginning and summary of a book Navod - to bring forward Uvedi - to bring into a record The Concept of Movement The concept of movement has developed from water Voda, Vodi = V + Odi Odi, ode, ojde, ajde, otide, ide, idi I have found the verb form idi (iti) in the Homeric poems dating back to 1500 BC. Doide - came Sjoide - went Po-odi(e)- short walk From here we can explain the meanings of many other words, for example: Odometer - Odo = to move or go + Meter = to measure. In Macedonian (odomeri). In electricity we have terms like, Anode. "An" is old Macedonian word for "Na" (Nad) meaning on or above + ode = go, move. Thus anode is explained as to go above or bring above. Cathode - In Macedonian we have k'ti, kutni = bring down, + ode = go, move. Thus cathode is explained as to go down or to bring down. Itinerary - has the Macedonian verb Idi (iti) = go, move, travel, as well as the noun Idenje = traveling. If we turn briefly to Greek we can see that the Greek language has borrowed from this large family /concept the word -"Odos "- street and "odeo" to travel, mainly found in the Homeric poems. However this concept of movement simply does not exist in Greek, English or many other European languages (Except in the Slavonic languages). Unfortunately, the Oxford and Webster authorities have referred to many of these words as "Greek" without any convincing proof as to their roots or families. Here is a brief explanation of the remaining English words mentioned here: Vardi, Varde - to watch or guard in Macedonian (Warden,Guard in English) Bookva, bookvar - Book Trk (trka trcha, trkalo) - Trek Shirina, shirinka - Shire Pat - Path Mek, Meko - Meek Divina, Divovi - Divine In Macedonian "bookvar" is the very first "book" for learning to read and write. The word bookvar is related to a large family of words. This represents the larger concepts of learning and writing. Alphabet, Learning, Writing and Science Booka (buka) - In Macedonian this is a type of birch tree the bark of which is used to make paper tablets for writing* Bukva, Bukvi - the letters of the alphabet Bookvar - elementary learning book Azbooka = (J)azik (Tongue or Language) + Bukva (Alphabetic Character) - used for reading and writing. Nauka, uka - Science of learning, Learning Nauchnik - Scientist Nauchi, Uchi - to learn Uchilishte - school Uchitel - teacher * In 1992 in Stobi, an ancient archaeological site near Veles, Macedonia, a wood-paged book was discovered along with a bottle for ink and a writing pen. Also in the Homeric Poems of approximately 1500 BC there is mention of the Ancient (Magic) wooden tablets that contained the letters /symbols that "spoke". The writing was done on the wooden surface prepared with natural bees wax and scratched with a solid /metal pen like tool . These examples only "scratch the surface" of what I have found, but indicate the Macedonian language may have had an influence on other European languages from early times. In the past many unknown inscriptions were dubiously identified as possibly Greek or unknown but, as I mentioned, they can easily be translated with the use of Macedonian and other Slavonic languages. Scholars will have to consider this influence if they want to get a better understanding of the languages in Europe. Odisej Belchevsky, Macedonian Language Researcher
mafisKumA den deneska lujge od sekakvi naci se pomesuvat (najmnogu preku brak i preseluvajne) pa normalno i jazik ke se pomesa zato i imat mnogu zboroj vo sekoj eden jazik so potekla od nekoja druga nacija
edlund Мислам дека ме прашаш за българските македонци и ке те помола да ми кажуваш отдека ти е информацията дека во България се намалувал бройот на македонците? Мислам дека таа информация е дело на люде како Блаже Конески и србската пропаганда. Македонци во България винаги е имало, йас сум от македонско потекло, другиот българин тука exact си е чист македонец, а освен нас има оште много хиляди. Пак морам да изясна едно нешто - под македонец аз разбирам човек от областта Македония, а вие разбирате човек от националността македонска. Ако требе да одговора според вашите разбирания - во България се е увеличил бройот на людете, които се самоопределят како да са от македонска националност. Преди втората светска война такива люде е немало, след нея може би са се появили, то и сега мислам дека има едно-две села които мислат дека са от националността македонска, живи и здрави да са.
OooOo zivi i zdravi da se i gravche na trpeza da imaat. Amin
Strelec
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
Преди втората светска война такива люде е немало, след нея може би са се появили...
kako toa mozebi??? se pojavile ili ne? i ako tie bile od makedonska TERITORIJA, a ne bile makedonci po NACIONALNOST, mozes li da objasnis zosto se opredeluvale lugjeto deka se makedonci po NACIONALNOST? i sakas li da kazes deka tie samo MISLELE deka se cuvstvuvaat makedonci, a VSUSNOST ne se cuvstvuvale makedonci?
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by melpomena
Ajde ne se raspravajte treba da bideme iskreni ida priznaeme deka sekoj narod si ja kreira Istorijata vo svoja polza. I ako edlund ima materijali i kupishta dokazi za odredeni raboti ne go krivete nego (takva mu bila istoriskata chitanka). Isto i nie mozheme da izvadime kupishta materijali i dokazi na primer deka Solun e nash, ama Solun realno vo segashnosta ne e nash i shto ni vredat tie dokazi. Taka da treba da se soglasite deka ima Makedonci ima i Bugari, postoi Makedonija i postoi Bugarija najprosto kazhano. I nezhnachi deka ako nekoj e Bugar avtomatski ja mrazi Makedonija. Ednostavno nekoi podatoci tuka se kompromitirachki so neshto shto toj go ima prochitano vo negovata istorija, napishana od nekoja desetta lichnost. A koja e vistinata i kakva e... e tuka ne se potrebni ednostrani gledishta bidejkji sekade ima poneshto dodavano i prisvoeno.
Фала за овоj пост.
DJ_SHEMA edlund Na ovoj forum se zboruva samop Makedonski ili Angliski. Dokolku ne znaesh da se iskazuvash na nieden od niv, togash nema shto da barash tuka. Bugarskiot jazik nema da se tolerira. So sledniot tvoj post na bugarski jazik kje bidesh baniran.
OooOo si senor [:D] sakaat da se druzhat so nas, ne ne vregjaat (barem jas ne primetiv) .. mene ne mi smetaat
OooOo edlund, sledniot pat napishesh li fyrom letash na ban momentalno.
DJ_SHEMA
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
OK, DJ SHEMA, here we go again: I think for the fifth time in this topic I say this - Macedonia is a region. Under macedonian we, the bulgarians, understand a man who lives in the macedonian region. That's why there are many macedonians in the Pirin region:) I see that this is something that you, the macedonians, can not imagine. Under macedonian you understand the macedonian nation and you are wondering how come there are 100% bulgarians who are macedonians. Yes, there are. The people from the town Goce Delchev for example (and everywhere in southwestern Bulgaria) are 100% bulgarians, they don't have macedonian citizenship, they feel bulgarians, but still know that they live in the macedonian region and that they speak the macedonian dialect of the bulgarian language. I know that this is some information that you are not going to like but this is the reality. Now, when the communism is over such things can not be hidden. About the VMRO - I don't think that this is so important, it's related to my words about the understanding of the term "macedonian" as a term for a region - the VMRO is makedonian organization because it is in the macedonian region and is fighting for the freedom of the people living there. That's why this organization is very famous in Bulgaria, there is still a political organization VMRO here and some of my friends voted for it at the last election.
[img]http://www.bundesligaforen.de/smilies/laugh.gif[/img][img]http://www.bundesligaforen.de/smilies/laugh.gif[/img][img]http://www.bundesligaforen.de/smilies/laugh.gif[/img][img]http://www.bundesligaforen.de/smilies/laugh.gif[/img][img]http://www.bundesligaforen.de/smilies/laugh.gif[/img][img]http://www.bundesligaforen.de/smilies/laugh.gif[/img]
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by melpomena
SEga u Bugarija ima antichki Makedonci, a u Makedonija imalo samo sloveni. Ajde de, kako uspeavte da ne se izmeshate so tie Antichki Makedonci, a kako kaj nas ovde uspea se zhivo da se isfiltrizira!
I see you haven't understood anything from what I said, I give up.
melpomena Slushaj da ti kazham.... Antichkite Makedonci imale prava vo Bugarija? Izvini zborat na antichki jazik? :) Druga rabota da ne gi meshame eve Makedoncite. Kolku Turci imate u BUgarija, i koga tie dobija pravo da si zborat Turski, i da se deklariraat kako Turci? ...Ili sea i tie se antichki Turci, onie Turcite Seldzuci?:) BTW Jas samo nesakam da vleguvam u bespolezni diskusii so tebe i zatoa ti odgovaram na najkratok mozhen nachin. Kaj mi e krajot ako ti odgovaram na sekoja tvoja rechenica. I pak kje ti kazham: Nemam nishto protiv tebe shto si Bugar, ni mnogu drugi nemaat. No ne go odrekuvaj nasheto nacionalno poteklo, i diskutiraj na forum kako i site drugi korisnici i se kje bide vo red.
edlund Това са глупости. Всички думи, които са споменати, са славянски, има ги и в българския език. Следователно няма как да са от 1500ВС.
quote:
Nauka, uka - Science of learning, Learning Nauchnik - Scientist Nauchi, Uchi - to learn Uchilishte - school Uchitel - teacher
Какво обшто има между тези думи(зборове)?
Strelec
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
...има ги и в българския език.
Toa dokazuva deka t.n. 'bulgarski jazik' e vsusnost dijalekt na makedonskiot jazik...:)
edlund Може и така да се каже, зависи от гледната точка:) А как би коментирал публикуваната статия, не е ли пълна с глупости?
deni tatar fuj
n/a Абе не знам дали българския език е диалект на македонския, или македонския е диалект на българския, но в основата им стои едно нещо - славянската култура. Колкото и да ме убеждават че имало различни нации българи, македонци не знам си какви , за мен всички ние - българи и македонци сме едно. Всичко е шибана политика, това разделение... ама нека всеки го приема както иска и както смята за добро ... \/ Peace ;] А статията е пълна ебавка с английския :)
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by deni
tatar fuj
Би ли се конкретизирала?
DJ_SHEMA Bugari, od kaj se nakotivte, plemeto vashe gnasno!
edlund Не знам дали си забелязал, но българите тук никого не са обидили, не са напсували, държат се културно. Специално в тази тема единствените псувни са от страна на македонци. Не искам да ви застрашавам "идентитетот", просто се изказах по темата. Можеш ли да ми обясниш какво не ти хареса от моето изказване?
Strelec
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
Можеш ли да ми обясниш какво не ти хареса от моето изказване?
jazikot blgarski ne mu se haresa na covekot...:)
NARCIS` Shema lupaj gi :))
edlund
quote:
jazikot blgarski ne mu se haresa na covekot...:)
Па интересно как македонскиот толкова си прилича с jазикот на едно "гнасно племе"
deni
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
quote:
Originally posted by deni
tatar fuj
Би ли се конкретизирала?
iskash da go prpash mojot desen ? :))
Strelec
quote:
Originally posted by edlund

nemoj taka... vie spored mene ne ste gnasno pleme... samo gnasen vi e karakterot...:) a drug ve narece gnasno pleme...:)
Strelec i uste nesto... ke mozeme seriozno da razgovarame onoj moment koga ke pocnes da gi primenuvas pravilata koi sto vazat ovde... a tie velat deka moze da se komunicira na makedonski ili angliski jazik... a ne i na bugarski... jas duri i bi napravil otstapka (koga jas bi se prasuval) i bi polemiziral so tebe i so tvojot bugarski jazik, no koga bi se izjasnil na primer deka zalis sto ne gi znaes makedonskiot i angliskiot, a da naglasis i deka makedonskiot jazik go pocituvas... ako ne si podgotven za takvo nesto, togas jas ke smetam deka si dojden na forumov da provociras, a so provokatori nemam namera da razgovaram...
edlund
quote:
deka makedonskiot jazik go pocituvas...
А къде сам казал дека не го почитувам? Jас би зборувал македонски, само дека не сум от Благоевград. Како видиш Exact зборува перфектно мекдонскиот jазик, а мислим дека и jас скоро ке се науча.
quote:
ako ne si podgotven za takvo nesto, togas jas ke smetam deka si dojden na forumov da provociras
Дойдох на форумов да КОМУНИЦИРАМ со македонци, не да ПРОВОЦИРАМ.
quote:
vie spored mene ne ste gnasno pleme... samo gnasen vi e karakterot...:)
Как ке го доказуваш това? Покажи ми тука в този topic каде сме си показали "гнусниот карактер"? И имам едно прашане во враска со топикот - македонците славяни ли сте, jазикот ви славянски ли е? Jас воистина не знам вие какво мислите, затова прашам, не ви провоцирам. To prove that I can respect the rules of this forum I will repeat in english - I have a question related to the topic - are you macedonians slavonic, is your language slavonic? I don't know your opinion, that's why I'm asking, don't want to be provocative. Und in Deustch - Ich habe eine Frage, die mit dem Topik verbunden ist - seid ihr Macedonien Slaven, ist eure Sprache slavisch? Ich weiss nicht was ihr meint, deshalb frage ich. Ich will euch auf gar keinen Fall provokieren.
ozonce
quote:
Дойдох на форумов да КОМУНИЦИРАМ со македонци, не да ПРОВОЦИРАМ.
Sekoj tvoj komentar na forumot e ebano provocirachki, i se chudam kako mozat adminite i moderatorite na forumot da ti dozvolat da serish celo vreme na se shto e makedonsko?!?[}:)][}:)] Nema tema koja se odnesuva na neshto makedonsko da ne dadish negativen komentar vo oblik, toa se gluposti, toa ne e makedonsko, toa ne e vakvo, toa ne e takvo... Sigurno imash osnovno obrazovanie.
ozonce biser i na biserot :))
edlund Ozonce, не знам ти какво образование имаш, но зашто не пишуваш на кирилица? По темата дека сам провоцирал - мога да ти извадя купишта документи, интервюта, материали, сите "провокативни". Но не го права. Опитвам се да вода нормална дискусиja а македонците ме псуват и не отговарят на савсем обикновени прашаниа. Ти като имаш висше образование, можеш ли да ми отговориш дали зборуваш славянски jазик и дали е имало славянски jазик 1500 години преди Христа? И ако не зборуваш славянски jазик то каков? П.С. Мислех дека со македонци може да се води културна дискусия но явно не е така.
melpomena Ajde ne se raspravajte treba da bideme iskreni ida priznaeme deka sekoj narod si ja kreira Istorijata vo svoja polza. I ako edlund ima materijali i kupishta dokazi za odredeni raboti ne go krivete nego (takva mu bila istoriskata chitanka). Isto i nie mozheme da izvadime kupishta materijali i dokazi na primer deka Solun e nash, ama Solun realno vo segashnosta ne e nash i shto ni vredat tie dokazi. Taka da treba da se soglasite deka ima Makedonci ima i Bugari, postoi Makedonija i postoi Bugarija najprosto kazhano. I nezhnachi deka ako nekoj e Bugar avtomatski ja mrazi Makedonija. Ednostavno nekoi podatoci tuka se kompromitirachki so neshto shto toj go ima prochitano vo negovata istorija, napishana od nekoja desetta lichnost. A koja e vistinata i kakva e... e tuka ne se potrebni ednostrani gledishta bidejkji sekade ima poneshto dodavano i prisvoeno.
Strelec glasam ovoj post da bide proglasen za "Post na nedelata"...:)
melpomena [:I][8)][:I][8)]
DJ_SHEMA
quote:
Originally posted by melpomena
Ajde ne se raspravajte treba da bideme iskreni ida priznaeme deka sekoj narod si ja kreira Istorijata vo svoja polza. I ako edlund ima materijali i kupishta dokazi za odredeni raboti ne go krivete nego (takva mu bila istoriskata chitanka). Isto i nie mozheme da izvadime kupishta materijali i dokazi na primer deka Solun e nash, ama Solun realno vo segashnosta ne e nash i shto ni vredat tie dokazi. Taka da treba da se soglasite deka ima Makedonci ima i Bugari, postoi Makedonija i postoi Bugarija najprosto kazhano. I nezhnachi deka ako nekoj e Bugar avtomatski ja mrazi Makedonija. Ednostavno nekoi podatoci tuka se kompromitirachki so neshto shto toj go ima prochitano vo negovata istorija, napishana od nekoja desetta lichnost. A koja e vistinata i kakva e... e tuka ne se potrebni ednostrani gledishta bidejkji sekade ima poneshto dodavano i prisvoeno.
Meli Ti kako da ne si bila na forum kade shto ima bugari. Ushte od vremeto na Makedon listata laat edna ista rabota i jas lichno ne mozam organski da gi podnesam koga kje pochnat so toa edno te isto. Sepak, ne znachi deka ako jas ne gi sakam nema da bidat tuka. Slobodno moze da se diskutira ama ili na Makedonski ili na Angliski. Bugarski jazik nie ovde ne razbirame.
OooOo Iskreno jas ne sum bil na takov forum, mozhda koga bi bil bi se stvorila nekoja omraza, ali sea za sea OooOo is cool
BorisVM Mene eden od mnogu dobrite drugari tuka mi e od Sofija, i jas koga go zapoznav mislev deka e od Skopje, tolku chisto zboruva Makedonski. Jas obratnoto ne mozham da go kazham za Bugarskiot. Mene momcive ne mi smetaat, poshto Makedonec da go kazheshe neshto od toa tie shto go kazhale, nemashe da ima nekoj problemi neli?
melpomena Epa togash neka se zabranat i sekakvi postovi pastirani od srpski i hrvatski sajtovi. Ako nekoj saka da gi postira neka si gi prevede. Kako za eden taka za site. Iskreno mislev deka staveni se Angliski i Makedonski kako oficijalni jazici tuka, od prichina site da mozhat da gi razberat postovite. Sepak ne gledam nishto losho da se napishe post na Hrvatski, Srpski i Bugarski, zoshto toj shto razbira Makedonski gi razbira i tie jazici
OooOo melpomena e bugarka! [:D]
DJ_SHEMA Dali hrvatite imaat teritorijalni i nacionalni pretenzii kon Makedonija? Dali Srbite imaat?Donekade mozebi, ama ne vo tolkava mera kolku Bugarite. Bugarite sekogash go osporuvale nashiot jazik i go narekuvale bugarki dijalekt. Da se diskutira tuka na bugarski znachi deka se opravduva nivnata teza donekade deka jazicite se slichni. OK, mozevi se slovenski jazici, ama so nivnite pretenzii kon Makedonskiot jazik, kultura, istorija, crkva i tradicija, mislam deka treba site nie da se trudime da go shitime nashiot identitet. Jas nemam nishto protiv da se diskutira so bugarite, ama kako shto tie nas ne ni go priznavaat jazikot (se sekjavate na potpishuvanjeto na oficijalni dokumenti pomedju mk i bg?) i nie treba niv da im se sprotistavime i da go branime nashiot distinktiven jazik. Znaete kako vodata leka poleka breg roni?
BorisVM Abe chek sea, pazi: Inzinjer si, bi trebalo da znaesh simbolichna logika: Lingvistchka pretstava: Macedonia is Greece Logichka pretstava: Macedonia = Greece Greece = Macedonia Makedonskiot jazik e dijalekt na bugarskiot. Makedonskiot jazik = dijalekt na Bugarskiot Bugarskiot jazik = dijalekt na Makedonskiot. Gledash kolku se besmisleni? :)
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by DJ_SHEMA
edlund Na ovoj forum se zboruva samop Makedonski ili Angliski. Dokolku ne znaesh da se iskazuvash na nieden od niv, togash nema shto da barash tuka. Bugarskiot jazik nema da se tolerira. So sledniot tvoj post na bugarski jazik kje bidesh baniran.
OK. I understand your opinion and have nothing against it. But I made my own conclusions. You don't understand anything in bulgarian - that's ok with me. I can't speak macedonian - that's true, too. But why don't you answer the question that I asked in english? Or I can't speak english neither? The question was related to the topic - "English words with macedonian origin". I have to point to the fact that noone here except me and exact wrote anything about the topic. I will repeat once again my question: Do you macedonians speak slavonic language and was there slavonic language 1500 B.C. ?
DJ_SHEMA I ll tell you what I believe. Macedonians in 1500 BC were speaking a Macedonian language, a distinct language from the helenic one at that period. This has been clearly noted on numerous books on Alexander the Great. He was stated that he can fluently speak hellenic language. That was a big deal since his native one was Macedonian one, a language that the ancient geeks did not speak. Cyril developed the Cyrilic alphabet in the IX century and tought the whole eastern world of his deed. Let us not mix the alphabet with the language, as the language existed before the alphabet was invented. The alphabet was invented on the basis of the language that was spoken in the area where he lived - Ohrid Macedonia. So the language the Macedonians spoke at that period existed prior to IX century. I think that what was spoken at 1,500 b.c. by the ancient Macedonians differes from today's Macedonian language. However, I belive that they were the same language, only this modern language evolved through time from that ancient one. The rulling of several tsars over the Macedonian teritory, and the migration of different nations may have further contributed toward the methamorfication of the ancient Macedonian language to today's modernt Macedonian language.
edlund Now that's what I call discussion. Are there any books or scripts left from the time of Alexander? Do you know some of the macedonian words that were used 3500 years ago and are used now? And once again I ask do you think that your language is slavonic. I don't know if it's proper to say anything about Bulgaria because it seems that only the name drives you mad, but this is the situation with the bulgarian language - there are only 6 words left from the ancient bulgarians, the current bulgarian language is slavonic. We use the cyrilic alphabet because back in the 9th century we needed an alphabet to write in our language and we had a language before the creation of this alphabet too.
DJ_SHEMA Now, who created the alphabet that the Bulgarians now use, and what nationality were they? What was their native language?
ozonce
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
Ozonce, не знам ти какво образование имаш, но зашто не пишуваш на кирилица? По темата дека сам провоцирал - мога да ти извадя купишта документи, интервюта, материали, сите "провокативни". Но не го права. Опитвам се да вода нормална дискусиja а македонците ме псуват и не отговарят на савсем обикновени прашаниа. Ти като имаш висше образование, можеш ли да ми отговориш дали зборуваш славянски jазик и дали е имало славянски jазик 1500 години преди Христа? И ако не зборуваш славянски jазик то каков? П.С. Мислех дека со македонци може да се води културна дискусия но явно не е така.
Batka sho ja tupish ja tupish i dzabe si go gubish vremeto...
DJ_SHEMA Here are few points for you to consider before you speak up. Note the herritage of the aouthoer. Unlike any of our neigboring countries, we do not pay hitorians to write finding for our own benefit. The authoer has come to thinc conclusion all on his own. Ancient Macedonians and their Macedonian language ANCIENT MACEDONIANS AND THEIR MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE Scholars, based on long and painstaking work and encompassing varied disciplines have, to a certain extent, arrived at an acceptable consensus regarding the ancients. You will be able to read the latest interpretations of history by the most prominent scholars and revisionists of the twentieth century. Here we make a deliberate effort to distance ourselves from scholars and literature emanating from the Balkans -- in order to avoid the trappings of politics and bias. The main concern of this study will be the "Macedonian language" MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE - THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM The language used by the ancient Macedonians has been deliberately politicised by Greece. It is, therefore, imperative, given the complexity of the situation, to carefully address the two structural underpinnings on which this issue (un)comfortably rests: (A) The political aspect of the problem, and (B) The technical aspect of the problem. (A) Political The political aspect of the problem can be assessed trough the following observations/questions: (1) Why are modern-day Greeks obliged to deny the existence of a separate Macedonian language? (2) What is the driving force behind such an act? (3) What degree of association can one assign between language and ethnicity. (B) Technical Here, we need to elaborate and examine their assertions that: (1)"There was no Macedonian language." (2) "Ancient Macedonian spoke Greek, and therefore they were Greeks." A Political (1) By denying that the ancient Macedonians spoke a separate [non-Greek] language, modern Greeks can: (1) declare that the ancient Macedonians were Greek speakers, and simplistically conclude that (2) they must also have been ethnically Greek. (2) The driving force behind such desperate reasoning is Greece's fear of losing the newly-acquired "province of Macedonia." If Greece fails to establish that the ancient Macedonians were Greek speakers, or ethnically Greek, then the part of Macedonia which is independent (the Republic of Macedonia) may place a claim on its lost territory and abused population. Under the Treaty of Bucharest (1913) Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia partitioned Macedonia and distributed it (and its indigenous population) amongst themselves. Serbia has relinquished control over the Macedonian territory it acquired. This is an acknowledgement that Macedonia is not "Southern Serbia" and that the partition of Macedonia was not legal to begin with. Similarly, Macedonia is not "Northern Greece." In a broader sense, Greece anticipates that the hands of justice may someday reach for her and demand the return of the "stolen" booty. (3) This is an issue of enormous importance to modern-day Greeks who are indoctrinated to believe that use of language equals ethnicity. Furthermore, most Greeks today equate their ethnic identity with the nation state. As a consequence, the use of a common language would denote a common nationality. However, the concept of a separate ethnicity within the nation state is completely lost upon them. B Technical The technical aspect of the problem requires a much deeper analysis. To better understand the Greek-revisionist claim, and to be able to properly address the issue, we require clarification of the ambiguous Greek position. (1) Does the Greek claim about Macedonia suggest that ancient Macedonians were Greek because they sometimes 'used' the ancient Greek language? (2) Is it being claimed that the ancient Macedonian language was Greek in both: written and spoken form? (3) Do the modern citizens of Greece really believe that language is the primary identifying aspect, or component in discerning one's ethnicity? (4) Was the language that the Ancient Macedonians spoke, in fact, Greek, or perhaps, a Greek dialect? Before we tackle these questions, I would like to make some comparative observation of analogous situations where the instrument of communication, the spoken/written language of a given population/community or a country, does not by itself identify the ethnic/national character of the users in general. First and foremost one must keep in mind that the language used by people does not by itself identify their ethnicity. We communicate in English, and we all come from different ethnic backgrounds. South American countries use the Spanish language, (Brazil excluded), and yet, not everyone is Spanish. History is replete with examples where people speak the same language yet identify themselves as ethnically different. Professor Ernst Badian from Harvard University writes: "The idea that a nation is essentially defined by a language and that, conversely a common language means a common Nationhood - which is patently untrue for the greater part of human history and to a large extent even today". ("Studies in the History of Art Vol. 10: Macedonia and Greece in late classical and early Hellenistic Times".) [The implicit assumption is that ethnicity is determined and/or identified through a common language. This pattern of thinking continues further through the implication that ancient Macedonians spoke Greek, and therefore, they were Greeks. Consequently, everything that has been identified as "Macedonian"- is Greek, including, most importantly, the name itself.] Fourth century silver coins from the Persian province of 'Yehud' imitate "Greek issues for trading with the Greeks." There had already been Greek influence in Judea as early as the fifth century B.C., and many Jews especially the wealthy ones from the towns of Seleucia and Gadara, were prepared to accept a measure of Hellenism. Even in Judea "Greek was rapidly becoming the language of government and big business." Furthermore, the pro-Hasmonean books I and II Maccabees, though totally pro Jewish, were written in Greek. Jews in Alexandria used the Greek language extensively; "On the Kings of Judea" was written in Greek by a certain Demetrius. Thracian silver coins and vessels from the fifth century B.C. bear Greek inscriptions, and yet, the Greek archeologists have never claimed this people as Greek. Late eighteenth century nobility in Russia and Germany used the French language as a mode of communication. Were they proclaiming their french nationality? Therefore, we must ask ourselves: Where do we draw the line? With what precision and certainty, do we ascribe Greek ethnic character to the Ancient Macedonians when we are confronted with such overwhelming analogous evidence? Let us peruse the available literary evidence and see what those who know more than us have to say: Eugene Borza: "The lesson is clear: the use of the Greek language as a form of written expression does not by itself identify the ethnicity of a culture". ("In the Shadow of Olympus -The Emergence of Macedon", p. 94.) On p. 89 from the same source we find Borza discussing the arrival of the Macedonian tribes in the Balkans. "As the Macedonians settled the region following the expulsion of existing peoples, they probably introduced their own customs and language(s); there is no evidence that they adapted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues." [It is proper, and even compelling, to expect that the arriving Macedonians already had an existing oral language.] Ulrich Wilcken in his book 'Alexander the Great' notes on p. 22: "linguistic science has at its disposal a very limited quantity of Macedonian words" "The main evidence for Macedonian existing as a separate language comes from a handful of late sources describing events in the train of Alexander the Great where the Macedonian tongue is specifically mentioned". ("In the Shadow of Olympus", p.92.) "The evidence suggests that Macedonian was distinct from the ordinary Attic Greek used as the language of the court and of diplomacy". And then we have N.G.L.Hammond, an unabashed philhellene, whose position on the ancient Macedonians is "flexible," to say the least: "What language did these 'Macedones' speak? The name itself is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. ...The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod recorded has a bearing on the question of Greek speech. ...Hesiod would not have recorded this relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh century, that the Macedones were a Greek-speaking people. The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the sixth century the Persians... We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and modified Hesiodus genealogy... thus bringing Macedon and his descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking family. Hesiod, Persia, and Hellanicus had no motive for making a false statement about the language of the Macedonians, who were then an obscure and not a powerful people. Their independent testimonies should be accepted as conclusive". <N.G.L.Hammond, 1989> (1) Hammond's strong and a forceful implication that Hesiod, Persia, and Hellanicus "had no motives for making a false statement" about the language of the ancient Macedonians leaves one with the impression that Hammond was trying to fend off his critics beforehand. The Persian example relies on a Persian's "impression" in the 6th century BC. If we move to 480/79 BC, a much more opportune time for the Persians to get to know the Macedonians, we find the following episode enlightening: The Persian commander Mardonius chose Alexander I (king of Macedon) as an envoy to Athens, partly because he was related to the Persians through his sister Gygea's marriage to Bubares, and partly because Mardonius had learned that Alexander I was already "proxenos," -- a public friend of the Greeks. The question arises: If the ancient Macedonians were Greek, or better yet, if Persians felt that the ancient Macedonians were Greek, (this surely is implied by Hammond) should we dare assume then, that the Persian commander would trust a "Greek" - to negotiate for him with the other Greeks? Since Hammond brought up the episode with the Persians as evidence that the Macedonians were Greek speakers then let us see what Ulrich Wilcken had to say about these same Macedonians at the time of the Persian wars. "Having stayed in the extreme north, they (Macedonians) were unable to participate in the progressive civilization of the tribes which went further south, and so, when in the time of the Persian wars they emerged in the horizon of the other Greeks, they appeared to them as non-Greek, as barbarians". [Note: "Barbarians" was a term used by the ancient Greeks to describe people whose language was unintelligable to them.] (1) The second example about Hellanicus is even less persuasive. Eugene Borza dismisses it as a piece of mythology. He writes: "Hammond's firm conclusion that the Macedonians spoke a distinctive dialect of Aeolic Greek is unconvincing to me, resting as it does on an interpretation of a bit of myth quoted by Hellanicus, who made Aeolus the father of the legendary progenitor Macedon". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.92.) (3) In view of the available evidence one must be weary of Hesiod's "beliefs." A "belief" is not evidence. The validity of such a statement must be taken with caution. Strangely enough, though, this very same N.G.L. Hammond, when describing the affairs of the Macedonian state in the years between 460 and 360 B.C., (on p. 152 in "The Macedonian State") writes the following: "Literary evidence and archeological evidence show that between 460 and 360 the standard of life in Upper Macedonia was at a primitive level and the area was remote from the orbit of Greek trade, and even from coastal Macedonia, with only two exceptions......" If we were to assume that Greek language was imported from Greece proper, it must have occurred much later than the time suggested by Hellanicus. Even if we accept Hellanicus' assertion as verifiably "true," we must keep in mind the "time gap" of several centuries in question. Hammonds argues that the area was remote from Greek trade, and thereby the "contact" with speakers of the Greek language was minimal. This, invariably brings us to the following unanswered question: Was there a separate Macedonian language already in use by the ancient Macedonians before the spread of Greek? To put the same question in different light: Were the Ancient Macedonians a mute people? Did they wait for the arrival of the Greeks to open their mouths and start communicating among themselves? To continue with Hammond's assertion; On p. 163 (Macedonian State) describing the army units in Philip's time, we find: "These units were equal to those of the old kingdom. There was still some difference in dialect; for some men from Upper Macedonia spoke West Greek and some from the old kingdom spoke a form of Aeolic dialect, known then as "Macedonian dialect". [I would like to bring to the reader's attention the following important aspect of the meaning of "Macedonian dialect" in contrast to "koine". And if one hurries to ascribe to the "usual" interpretation of "dialect" to mean the same as "Greek", I must inform you that this is the same "dialect" that got Ambiance (a Greek commander who could not communicate with his Macedonian soldiers) killed, because he could not understand it, and it is the same Macedonian "dialect" that Alexander used to call on his guards, when he felt that his life was in danger. This also is, the same "dialect" in which Macedonian soldiers affectionately greeted their commanders, and finally, this is the same "dialect" in which Macedonian soldiers paid their last respects to their fallen king - Alexander. A "dialect" that Alexander the Great himself called "our Macedonian language".] It appears that some authors use the term "dialect" to minimize the existence of a separate Macedonian language. One must bear in mind that in the Greek Peninsula a number of Greek dialects were employed. However, in Macedonia, which was huge in comparison, only one "dialect" is expounded. Were there no Macedonian dialects? Hammond, once again, refers to the Macedonian language as an Aeolic dialect known as the "Macedonian dialect". Professor Borza clearly disagrees and offers the following argument: "The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from Greek - do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.93.) On p. 165 from "Macedonian State", we read as Hammond describes the spread of Greek language in the latter part of the fifth century: "We may be sure that the Greek language spread more rapidly among the 'inlet barbarians' of the enlarged kingdom, whose livelihood depended increasingly on their commercial relations with the Greek speaking cities in their midst." We see the first penetration of Greeks in the area, and therefore the first substantial contact with the Greek language. Precarious is his assertion that the livelihood of the "inlet barbarians" (Macedonians) depended increasingly on their commercial relations with the Greeks. What did the "livelihood" of these barbarians depend on before the arrival of the Greeks in the fifth century? It is undeniable that ancient Macedonians were self-sufficient, an extremely proud and resourceful people who inhabited very fertile lands in Macedonia. Very curiously, on p.165, from the same source, Hammond describes how different tribes in Macedonia came in contact with Greeks and learned the Greek language. "Pelasgic Tyrsenoi, Bisaltae, Crestonians, and Edones, had learnt to speak Greek, for they were diglossoi." Hence, what do we have to contend with so far: 1. Hesiod's seventh century: "Macedonians are a Greek speaking people". 2. Persia sixth century: "Macedonians to be speakers of Greek". 3. Hellanicus late part of fifth century: "Aeolic branch of the Greek speaking family". 4. Hammond 's 460 - 360 B.C. : "Upper Macedonia was remote from the orbit of Greek trade". 5. Hammond (during king Philip): "Macedonians from Upper Macedonia spoke West Greek, and some from the old kingdom spoke Aeolic dialect, known as 'Macedonian dialect'". [Note: (a) Wasn't Upper Macedonia primitive and remote from Greek trade? How did this "West Greek" language come into this remote land that was not in contact with Greeks? (b) Those from the old kingdom spoke a "Macedonian dialect" the same dialect that Greeks could not understand. Remember Ambiance? 6. Hammond - (Fifth cent.) Greek contact is established: (a) various peoples "learnt the language", (b) "were diglossoi" [Note: "Learnt the language", were "diglossoi" denotes the following: (a) The existing people spoke something other than the "new language" that they had just learnt, and (b) to be "diglossoi" one must be bilingual; to speak your own language and the newly learnt Greek language. One would not be called "diglossoi" by speaking only Greek. 7. Hammond - (Fifth century) "spread of Greek language". [Note: In lieu of the following statements, one is compelled to ask the following question: If these Macedonian peoples were already speaking Greek, whom did the Greeks spread their language to?] Eugene Borza is called the 'authority on Macedonia,' and one must heed his advice. He asks: "As a question of method: why would an area three hundred miles north of Athens - not colonized by Athens - use an Attic dialect, unless it were imported? That is, the Attic dialect could hardly be native, and its use is likely part of the process of Hellenization. To put the question differently: if the native language of the Macedonians is Greek, what is its Macedonian dialect?" An excellent question indeed. Why would Macedonians use the remote Attic Greek dialect if they supposedly had their own "dialect"? Furthermore, when did they begin using the Attic dialect? [It must be noted that there is some contradiction in terms of time, terminology and purpose.] Let us continue.... On p. 391 in "The Macedonian State" he (Hammond) writes: "As the language of the Macedonian State and of the army was Greek, we may be sure that the subject peoples were bilingual (diglottoi)". [Note: Please remember Hammond's statement above about the language of the army, and compare it with Badian's assertion below.] Knowing what "bilingual subject" means, we are on much firmer ground as to what Hammond has in mind. Even if there was a Greek language used by the state and the army, there was, also, "another" language used in ancient Macedon. On p. 64 (same source) we find a description of the Macedonian Assembly comprised of Macedonians only with their own 'esprit de corps' -- Hammond writes: "They wanted the Macedones to have their own esprit de corps; and those of them who came from Lower Macedonia continued to speak the Macedonian dialect among themselves and to address the king or a commander in that dialect as a sign of affection". [In the previous quote Hammond eludes to the use of "another language" spoken by the larger mass of Macedonian subjects. Here he covers the other side of the coin, using the "Macedonian dialect".] One thing is clearly evident: we have inadvertently been exposed to the existence of either a Macedonian language and/or Macedonian dialect. On p. 165 Hammond continues: As Philip continued to build new cities in the areas east of Axius he was able to "plant new cities of Macedonians". Particularly important was the spread of the "Greek language" among the "inland barbarians" like Pelasgic Tyrsenoi, Bisaltae, Crestonians, and Edones who "learnt to speak Greek". This passage suggests that these peoples were "diglossoi' ,bilingual. And that, by itself, speaks volume. Obviously, there was another language in operation besides Greek. Let us visit Ernst Badian, (professor and chair person at Harvard History Department) a more contemporary author and a revisionist of Ancient History. The usage of the Macedonian language, and thereby its existence, is confirmed by the following episode: ...after one symposium Alexander the Great felt that his life was threatened and he is said to have called for his guards in Macedonian. When his life was threatened he reverts to his more primitive psyche, which could be interpreted as "overpowering his expressed intellectual preference for the Greeks, i.e. the Greek part of his own nature". "But the answer is probably simpler than that", writes Badian. "He used the only language in which his guards could be addressed". [Note: The guards could be addressed in Macedonian only.] Episode #2. Eumenes of Cardia. In 321 B.C., Greek commander Ambiance, with cavalry and light arms only, faced the Macedonian noble, Neoptholemus, with the Macedonian phalanx. To avoid battle Xennias, a man whose speech was Macedonian, was sent by Eumenes to negotiate with the commander of the phalanx. Badian analyzes: "Now, Xennias' name at once shows him to be a Macedonian. Since he was in Ambiance's entourage he was presumably a Macedonian of superior status, who spoke both standard Greek and his native language. He was the man who could be trusted to transmit Ambiance's message. This clearly shows that the phalanx had to be addressed in Macedonian, if one wanted to be sure (as Ambiance certainly did) that they would understand. And almost equally interesting - he did not address them himself, as he and other commanders normally address soldiers who understood them, nor did he sent a Greek. The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that Greek was a difficult, indeed a foreign language to them. We may thus take it as certain that, when Alexander used Macedonian in addressing his guards, that too was because it was their normal language, and because (like Ambiance) he had to be sure he would be understood". It is documented that Ambiance had experienced extreme difficulties in commanding the Macedonian soldiers. His disability was "not only his Greek birth, as has always being realized, but the simple fact that he could not directly communicate with the Macedonian soldiers". "His alien culture and provenance were not only obvious in an accent; it was a matter of a language". ["It was a matter of a language..."] ("Studies in the History of Art Vol 10: Macedonia and Greece in Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times".) From John O'brian in "Alexander the Great the Invisible Enemy"
AaaAa Shema, imalo i ima i srpski politicari koj go osporuvaat makedonskiot narod, jazik , a najpovekje crkva, ama poradi tie poedinci nie ne se praime na toso prema site i ne generalizirame. fakt e deka mnogu povise bugari ne osporuvaat ama to neznaci ceka sekoj eden koj ke se pojavi ke treba da se fati na noz. Generalizacija e mnogu losa rabota. Ako ti si imal loso iskustvo so poedinci makar bile toa i 100, neznaci deka site bugari se odvratni vakvi i onakvi. daj im na lugjevo sansa, i ne im davaj pricina povekje da te mrzat. Spustajki se na nivoto na nekolkuminata e toa shto gi razoruva odnosite. ubo rece mimi, taka ucele; ti mislish deka nivnoto e gresno , tie pak se ubedeni deka ti si greska. A toa dali Srbive imaat pretenzii prema makedonija u nekoja druga prilika :)Hrvatite se daleku, i nikogash nemale teritorijalni dopirni tocki so makedonija za razlika od drugive .
edlund
quote:
"The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from Greek - do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.93.)
Can you give an example of survived genuine Macedonian words?
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Now, who created the alphabet that the Bulgarians now use, and what nationality were they? What was their native language?
If you haven't noticed we use the same alphabet as you. It was created by Cyril, Method and their scholars. Cyril and Method were born in Solun (Thessaloniki) and most likely were Byzantine (I don't know what you learn in your schools). They created the Cyrilic alphabet beacause the slavonic nations didn't have their own alphabet. In this moment there was rivalry between the byzantine and the rome church which church will the slavonic nations (including Bulgaria) join. The Rome church wanted us to make liturgies in Latin, Greek or Jewish. The Byzantine church was more clear-sighted and translated the bible in all known languages. Then Byzant had the task to create a slavonic alphabet and translate the liturgy-books to a slavonic language. Cyril and Method were the most suitable people for the task. In this period the Bulgarian language was already slavonic. In the year when Bulgaria was established - 681 - it was an alliance between slavons and ancient Bulgarians against Byzant. The ancient Bulgarians were powerful but few in numbers and so they were assimilated by the slavons. So you don't think that the ancient Macedonians are assimilated?
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by AaaAa
daj im na lugjevo sansa, i ne im davaj pricina povekje da te mrzat.
Nobody in Bulgaria hates Macedonia. That's the difference. I don't know what you learn in school, or what you hear on the tv, or read in the newspapers, but I personally have never met a bulgarian who hates macedonians.
OooOo Jas imam sretnato Bugari vo Chicago koj mi rekle deka Makedonija e Bugarija i deka ustvari jas sum Bugarin.
Strelec oficijalna Bugarija ne go priznava Makedonskiot jazik...
edlund This doesn't mean that bulgarians hate macedonians.
Thief Ајде на Бугарчево конкретно да му одговорам што учиме ние за нашиот јазик во нашите училишта, а да се повикам и на славистиката! Кирил и Методиј скоро сигурно биле Грци, макаршто теориите водат и до мислење дека биле Византијци или најверојатната дека се Грци, чија мајка била Словенка, па затоа толку добро го зборувале словенскиот јазик! Кога велам „словенски“, мислам на старословенскиот, кој според теоријата на Ватрослав Јагиќ и Облак (во време кога немало македонска држава, ниту „клетите“ комуњари на чело со Конески кои го „измислиле“ нашиот јазик, па според тоа никој не можел политички да влијае врз нив) старословенскиот е „јазикот кои го зборувале македонските Словени од околината на Солун“. И денес во три села близу Солун се зборува тој дијалект на македонскиот јазик (простете што не можам да се сетам на нив, а литературата на оваа тема ми е кај една драга пријателка, па кога ќе ми ја врати ќе ви ги набројам, по сеќавање едно од нив се викаше Сухо). Факт е дека Александар III Македонски во моментите на лутина зборувал, се јадосувал и пцуел на неговиот мајчин старомакедонски јазик! Грчкиот за него во тоа време, бил англискиот за нас денес. Од тој т.н. старомакедонски зачувани се само 150 збора (глоси). Факт е дека јазикот на големата античка македонска цивилизација извршил влијание и врз други европски и азиски јазици. Јазикот на кој денеска зборуваме е словенски! Македонскиот е и база за сите други словеноговоречки народи (забележете ја тенденцијата на новохрватскиот јазик за враќање кон македонските корени "idem doma", не: "idem kuci"); komu si to rekao, не: kome si to rekao; sto si rekao, не: sta si rekao! итн.) Не смее да се занемари фактот дека јазикот на домородното население, на староседелците моrал да изврши некакво влијание врз лексиката и граматиката на новодојдените Словени! Подоцна македонските теории се прифатени во славистичките кругови, а Блаже Конески е еден од најценетите светски слависти! Тој само ја почитува идејата на Крсте Петков Мисирков (идеи во време, исто така, на непостоење на мак. држава), иако го нема неговиот ракопис! Дури и 1938 (знаете како изгледаше Македонија тогаш!), Самуил Борисович Бернштајн во Големата советска енциклопедија, во делот за јазиците, изделува јазик богат со дијалекти, но сепак цврсто поврзани, со различни одлики од околните јазици! Тој за македонскиот јазик пишува оти го зборуваат „Јужни Словени населени на територијата на современа Македонија (Македонци)“. Ако има потреба во следна прилика, ќе ги наведам и изворите за ова писание! И да не заборавам: слободно оставете ги луѓето да зборуваат бугарски, оти ние ги разбираме-сепак е тоа еден ист јазик, македонски, кој во делот на современа Бугарија, заради различни политички и географски причини, бил под влијание на руските рецензии (редакции) на старословенскиот (класичниот македонски) јазик!
Thief Ќе заборавев упте еден пример од хрватскиот: "golem", не: "velik" (иако и двата збора паралелно ги користат). Во однос на зборообразувањето, го користат макеоднските принципи... Мене баш ме интересира дали е и на бугарски дозволена формата „кон“, едновремено со формата „към “
Strelec
quote:
Originally posted by OooOo
sakaat da se druzhat so nas, ne ne vregjaat (barem jas ne primetiv) .. mene ne mi smetaat
quote:
Originally posted by BorisVM
Mene momcive ne mi smetaat...
quote:
Originally posted by AaaAa
...fakt e deka mnogu povise bugari ne osporuvaat ama to neznaci ceka sekoj eden koj ke se pojavi ke treba da se fati na noz.
quote:
Thief
...И да не заборавам: слободно оставете ги луѓето да зборуваат бугарски, оти ние ги разбираме-сепак е тоа еден ист јазик, македонски...
jas ja prifakam zabeleskata od nekolkumina ovde i go menuvam prvobitniot stav... znaci go prifakam mislenjeto deka na gostite treba da im se dozvoli da ni se obrakaat i na bugarski jazik...
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by Thief
Ќе заборавев упте еден пример од хрватскиот: "golem", не: "velik" (иако и двата збора паралелно ги користат). Во однос на зборообразувањето, го користат макеоднските принципи... Мене баш ме интересира дали е и на бугарски дозволена формата „кон“, едновремено со формата „към “
Отговарям на български защото ме прашат за българския. "Кон" на български означава horse и не може да се използва за към. Използваме и голем (кажуваме голям) и велик.
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by Strelec
oficijalna Bugarija ne go priznava Makedonskiot jazik...
Не го признава понеже всеки в България верва на овой документ - [url]http://www.8ung.at/vpankov/MAKEDONSKIA_EZIK.htm[/url]
Strelec beletristika...:)
edlund You can check out the whole site - [url]http://www.8ung.at/vpankov/RADKO_02.htm[/url] This is an article written by an austrian professor Otto Kronsteiner: [url]http://www.8ung.at/vpankov/OTO_KRONSHTAINER_01.htm[/url] There are many other articles, enjoy.
Strelec procitaj go ovoj tekst i koga ke si gotov kazi mi da ti pustam prodolzenie... All people that have existed on this planet have left their mark in some form or another. The Macedonians are no exception and will be the subject of this series of articles. To properly reconstruct history, corroborating information from at least two sources must be obtained. One such source might be data collected from analyzing material finds like tombs, artifacts, relics and inscriptions, the type of information that can be derived from archeological research. Another source might be a body of literature derived from stories, legends, myths, folklore, poems, songs, etc. passed down from generation to generation. Unfortunately, for obvious reasons upon which I will expand, the reconstruction of the Macedonian history has been neglected and as a result has not achieved the desired maturity to be considered adequate. Scientific interest in the southern Balkan region in general began for the first time in the early 1800’s alongside political and economic interests. While German and British scholars were studying findings from the Bronze Age in the Peloponnesus and Crete, Macedonia was still in the grip of the Ottoman Empire. Later, after 1912 and 1913, in the hands of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian States, anything to do with Macedonia became politically sensitive. Since the time that Greece annexed a large part of Macedonia the Greek authorities have concealed all archeological materials which didn’t agree with their political agenda. Only materials that strengthened their claims to Macedonia and attracted tourists are made public. Without sound archeological data, reconstruction of history is scant at best. "Early twentieth-century historians continued occasionally to write political biographies of the pre-eminent fourth-century B.C. kings, and when they did consider Macedonian affairs they viewed them only as part of general Greek history. What was required for a deeper understanding of Macedon and its kings were serious source studies and archeology, but archeological interest remained dormant for decades because twentieth-century interest in Macedonia sprang from modern politics rather than from a study of antiquity." (page 8, Eugene N. Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus, The Emergence of Macedon). As for using literature to reconstruct Macedonia’s history, 19th century Western scholars relied heavily on Greek and Roman sources and neglected to reference Eastern, Macedonian and other literary sources. Eastern scholars on the other hand by political motivation or by nonchalance, continued to stagnate. Unfortunately to this day, Greek and Bulgarian opposition still remains the biggest obstacle to reconstructing Macedonia’s history. Both states occupy Macedonian territory and refuse to cooperate on matters of Macedonian interests, especially archeology. Greece, which occupies the largest and archeologically richest part of Macedonia, will only cooperate if Macedonian history remains peripheral to mainstream Greek events and if it is presented from the Greek point of view. Bulgaria still refuses to recognize a Macedonian nation and is in agreement with Greece on matters of ancient history. The academic community to date has been hesitant to become involved in the reconstruction of a mainstream Macedonian history (outside of the 4th century B.C.) partly due to the difficulties in obtaining information from non-Greek sources but mostly due to Greek pressure to keep Macedonia under the Greek periphery. Whatever evidence exists today, is fragmented and derived mainly from biased sources. "What we know about the Macedonians are primarily from Greek sources or from translations derived from the Greek sources and therefore we have a skewed view of them depending upon the views of people who were largely their enemies in antiquity". These are the words of Dr. Eugene Borza, the "world authority" on ancient Macedonia. Dr. Borza clearly summarizes the conditions under which mainstream Macedonian history has been presented. I want to emphasize that the Ancient Macedonian history taught in schools today was written during the 19th and early 20th centuries mostly by Western authors who relied mainly on politically motivated Greek sources for their research. Even though the Ancient Macedonian people were a unique and separate nation, their history presented to us always places them together with the people of the Greek city-states. There is no western text where the Macedonian identity is treated separately from the Greek identities of the city-states. Also, the same mainstream history which is taught to our children today, personifies the ancient Macedonian people as a mere vehicle that united the city-states and did nothing more than do their bidding in spreading Hellenic culture throughout the ancient world. Also, Modern Greek historians made sure that the negativity of orators like Demosthenes referring to the Macedonians as "barbarians" and "culturally backwards", was well portrayed in the minds of western writers. The fact that some modern authors ascribe Hellenic affinity to the ancient Macedonians should come as no great surprise, given the impact of Johan Gustav Droysen on early nineteenth-century historians where Macedonia is depicted as a natural "unifier" of the Greek city-states. The same role was played by Prussia and Savoy in German and Italian unification in the nineteenth century. "On this false analogy the whole of Greek history was now boldly reconstructed as a necessary process of development leading quite naturally to a single goal: unification of the Greek nation under Macedonian leadership". (Werner Jaeger) To paraphrase Eugene Borza, it was a dynamic idea in the minds of 19th century German intellectuals and politicians to see something of themselves, of the German State unification, conquests, creativity and culture in the Greeks and Philip as the embodiment of national will and the unifier of Greece. In other words, the ancient history written for the modern Greeks by 19th century German scholars was nothing more than a German vision of the "Glorious" German unification superimposed on the Greek model. To Demosthenes and others like him, the Macedonians were an enemy that conquered and subdued them and embodied everything that was vile and despicable. Ignoring all signs of a rich and civilized culture beyond imagination, modern Greek scholars hid the real face of ancient Macedonia under a veil of contemptible words spoken by enemies and by bitter politicians. Modern day Greeks would like to pass off Demosthenes’s castigations of Philip II as political rhetoric, and yet Demosthenes was twice appointed to lead the war effort of Athens against Macedonia. He, Demosthenes, said of Philip that, "Philip was not Greek, nor related to Greeks but comes from Macedonia where a person could not even buy a decent slave." Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by erecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: "If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares." (J.T. Griffith) Greece "ruled" not "united" by a Macedonian Ares. Also, was it not the Greek philosopher Lycurgus who said, "With the death of Chaeronea was buried the freedom of Greece?" The reader should be aware that the word "Greek" is a Latin term that originated during Roman times and should not be used to refer to a people that existed hundreds of years earlier. The people of the ancient city-states could not possibly have been called "Greek" before the word was actually invented. Also, modern Greek academics are more than willing to interpret ambiguous evidence when it serves their political interests, and at the same time, to dismiss the obvious when it doesn’t. If you want to learn more about the differences between the ancient Greeks and ancient Macedonians please read Josef S. G. Gandeto’s book, Ancient Macedonians, Differences Between the Ancient Macedonians and the Ancient Greeks. " There is not a single word or fact written by the ancient authors that shows that the Macedonians are Greek. There is not a single word or fact written where the Macedonians thought of themselves as Greeks. There is not a single book written by the ancient authors, including the ancient Greek authors, that has mixed the lineage and has not shown diverse differences between Macedonians and Greeks." (Joseph Gandeto) Since the emergence of the Republic of Macedonia in the 1990’s, research in the field of archeology has increased dramatically but mainly inside the Republic of Macedonia. Also, new Macedonian literature and publications are slowly emerging and in time should provide an alternative to the vast, biased Greek sources. On the subject of language, it would be evident from the text of Arrian, Plutarch, and Curtius Rufus that Alexander's army spoke Macedonian not Greek. Any other interpretation would be intolerably difficult, if not impossible, to accept. " The main evidence for ancient Macedonian existing as a separate language comes from a handful of late sources describing events in the train of Alexander the Great, where the Macedonian tongue is mentioned specifically. The evidence suggests that Macedonian was distinct from ordinary Attic (ancient Athenian) used as a language of the court and of diplomacy. The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from Greek - do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect." (Eugene Borza) There are many scholars who will argue that there is ample evidence to place the ancient Macedonians as a distinct nation with a unique culture and language, separate from the ancient city-states. Unfortunately, until recently there was little interest and not much incentive to carry the argument beyond discussion. If the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, then where did they come from? What language did they speak? Has any part of their language survived? What was their culture like? To answer these questions we need to avoid being bogged down by conflicting arguments. We need to get away from the well-trod mainstream path, free ourselves from the biased modern Greek sources and take a fresh look at the old and new evidence, especially the evidence that has been omitted or intentionally bypassed in the past. It has been my belief that the arguments presented by Greek historians are not only biased and politically motivated, but are designed to bog down the academic world and keep it on the defensive thus stifling any chance for real progress. On the topic of new archeological and linguistic evidence, there have been numerous projects undertaken since the 1960’s. A major archeological discovery was made in 1977 in Kutlesh (Vergina) about 30 miles north of Mount Olympus. Archeologists uncovered what appeared to be the royal tomb (Golemata Tumba) of Philip II. In addition to yielding much information about the Macedonians, the find also unearthed much controversy. Some of the artifacts found, according to Eugene Borza, belonged to a later period of the 4th century B.C., which cast some doubt as to whether it was truly Philip II’s tomb. What is more important however, is the type of treasure found in the tomb. The treasure is physical evidence which "proves unmistakably" that the Macedonians were not a barbarian tribe whose only accomplishment was making war. Archeologists are finding increasing evidence that the Macedonians were a far more sophisticated culture than previously thought. What was most impressive in this find, besides the solid gold casket with the symbol of the starburst, was the exquisite gold foiled wreath made from 313 gold oak leaves. It is the heaviest and most elegant gold wreath ever discovered. Since the emergence of the Republic of Macedonia new and exciting archeological discoveries have been made. Rocks with inscriptions never before deciphered were found in several sites inside the Republic of Macedonia. Similar inscriptions have also been found in Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania and even Crete, Pil and Knosos. Unfortunately, up until now archeologists have consistently failed to decipher them. Thanks to dedicated archeologists like Vasil Ilyov the inscriptions have now been deciphered. According to Ilyov’s palaeographic and paleolinguistic research, the signs on the rocks are actual letters of an old pre Slavic phonetic alphabet that belongs to the Macedonian language of Aegean Macedonia. In other words, the language of the Pelazgian and other Macedonian tribes, like the Payonian, Piertian, Brygian or Phrygian, Venets or Enets, etc., is in fact the language of the ancient Macedonians which dates back to prehistoric times. Symbols found on Prevedic solar and cosmographic artifacts that belong to the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Eneolithic cultures, place the inscriptions somewhere between 7,000 to 3,000 B.C. (Page 37, October 15, 1999, number 560, Makedonija magazine). What is more interesting is that Vasil Ilyov and his team have translated almost every inscription discovered and so far have identified and tabulated 35 characters of the ancient alphabet. (Pages 60 and 61, July 1, 2000, number 577, Makedonija magazine). There is finally proof that a Macedonian written language existed in prehistoric times. In fact, according to Vasil Ilyov, not one but two phonetic alphabets have been discovered. One was known as the common alphabet used by the general public and the other was known as the "secret" alphabet used for religious and ceremonial purposes. To date, the texts of more than 150 artifacts have been translated and about 6,000 ancient Macedonian words have been identified. According to Ilyov, apart from giving us the oldest phonetic alphabet found to date, the prehistoric Macedonians have also given us clues that they were gazing at the skies. The word "cosmos" which the Hellenes borrowed from the Macedonians, and the modern Greeks without offering adequate etymology pass off as their own, Iliov says comes from the Macedonians. In the ancient Macedonian language the base of the noun cosmos comes from the adjective KOS (winding slanted) and the noun MOS (bridge). "Kosmos" was the winding bridge that the ancient Macedonian astronomers called the cluster of stars in the Milky Way galaxy looking like a winding bridge when viewed from the earth. Even before Irodot (Herodotus 484-424 B.C.) gave the world the idea of history as we know it today, the ancient Macedonians were already familiar with the notion. The West considers Herodotus to be the father of history. As for the word "history", its roots are found in the ancient Macedonian noun "TR" which is the oldest name given to the god of thunder. In time, the word evolved from "TR" to "TOR", "TORI" and in the past tense, "STORI" which in Macedonian means "happened". If we apply this action to events that involve people we then come up with the Macedonian words "TIE I STORIA" which in English translates to "they did". So, when Herodotus published his work under the title "HISTORY" by Herodotus of Halicarnassus, he in fact used a Macedonian word for his title. If Herodotus, using a similar analogy derived his title from the Atikan dialect, as modern Greeks claim, he would have had to produce a noun from the verb "KANO" or "EKANA" and the actions "they did" would translate to "AVTI EKANAN" which is a far cry from the word HISTORY. (Pages 56 and 57, June 15, 2000, number 576, Makedonija magazine). I want to mention here that in spite of Greek claims otherwise, Irodot (Herodotus) was not Greek and was not from Athens. Herodotus was Karian born in the city of Halicanassus in Asia Minor. More evidence that gives credence to the existence of an ancient prehistoric Macedonian civilization comes to us from ancient literature. One such source that greatly influenced our impression of the ancients and inspired Alexander the Great to seek adventure was Homer’s epic poems. About five hundred years after the Trojan Wars, Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey. Homer’s work captivated his audience with events that, according to Tashko Belchev, began and ended in Macedonia. Homer was born in the 8th century B.C. and created true literary masterpieces that are enjoyed as much today, as they were in the days of Alexander the Great. Originally, Homer’s stories were folktales told and retold for millenniums until they were immortalized in print in the 6th century B.C. What is most interesting about Homer’s stories, especially the Iliad, is that they were originally written in the prehistoric Macedonian language. The first paleolinguist to openly proclaim the similarities between the words of the Iliad and those of the modern Slavic languages was the German Homerologist Pasov. Inspired by Pasov and others, researcher Odisej Belchevsky has furthered the study by clearly illustrating the fundamental relationship between the modern Macedonian language and the language of Homer. " In the Iliad and Odyssey, attributed to Homer, the great multitude of non-Greek people living around Olympus and further north in Europe were described as being as, ‘Numerous as the leaves in the forests… with chariots and weapons decorated with gleaming gold and silver…like gods.’ Unless destroyed by natural disaster, large nations and their languages do not simply disappear but rather change and evolve over time. This evolution is influenced by the conditions of life and interaction with other nations, called ‘symbiosis’ by Lidija Slaveska in The Ethnological Genesis of the Macedonian People. A tremendous number of words from everyday life as well as the names of a number of places, rivers, mountains, kings, gods, common people, and numerous tribes can be found in the Homeric poems. The majority of these words have survived until today. This is not a strange phenomenon. What attracts our attention is that these words have retained their basic meaning and can be easily recognized especially by the speakers of the contemporary Slavic languages. This linguistic material clearly shows the existence and strong influence of a language, which surely was neither Greek nor Latin. After extensive research taking over twelve years, I (Oddisej Belchevski) have studied, analyzed and resolved a large number of linguistic problems through the evidence of that archaic language which profoundly influenced the Greek, Latin, and Germanic languages in their historic development since ancient times. The question of what constituted ancient Macedonian has been studied by many scholars over many centuries. There have been many attempts to reconstruct it as a "Greek dialect." My research indicates the following: 1. Not a single linguist nor scholar in any other field has ever conducted a comparative study of this ancient language with the largest linguistic group in Europe and Asia--the Slavic languages--in use today! The question is: Why? It seems that the truth has been hidden in darkness and altered by western scholars and politicians for almost two hundred years. It is easy to suppose that this has been done for nationalistic, political interests and gains. 2. The Macedonian words identified in Homer (1000-800 BC) are a part of the basic everyday life of the Macedonian people today. When compared to the contemporary Macedonian language, there is an incredible similarity and in many cases there are complete cognates. 3. Moreover, those Homeric words which belong to that base are found in the roots of many words in the modern Macedonian language. They form huge families of words--a series of words that are interrelated on a functional basis or are simply built according to the Law Of Functional Etymology. 4. Some of these words have been adopted in the Greek language, but have been assimilated beyond recognition. Others again "stand alone" in the Greek language, without Greek roots or functional relationships. But most of these words are absolutely not related to modern Greek. Many western scholars think that kinship terms from 1500-1000 BC disappeared long ago. My research proves that they exist today in the largest language group of nations in Europe and Asia, including the modern Macedonian nation. These specific terms were of utmost importance as they were the basis for preserving large family units --clans, tribes, and the prevention of marriages between family members. All this resulted in forming of great nations. The Pelazgian people are clearly described in Homeric poems as non-Greek, with their own language and traditions totally different from Greek. They inhabited the Balkan Peninsula (known by the names Macedonians, Thracians, Illyrians, etc.) and they spread throughout south-eastern Europe (under the common name Scythians). Later, they migrated to the east in Asia Minor (Lydians, Brigians-Frigians etc.) and to the west into central and northern Italy (Etruscans, Veneti etc). Their name, Pelazgians, most logically could be interpreted as the ‘dwellers of the flat lands’. They cultivated the fertile valleys and became a part of the landscape their fecundity only paralleled by the far Eastern nations. In the Iliad, they are identified as Trojans and as the inhabitants of Crete. According to Greek writers, they are credited with building the Acropolis and as those natives that the ‘Greek’ tribes met when they arrived in Southern Europe. How could it have happened that so great a number of Pelazgian tribes disappeared without leaving traces of their language? It should be pointed out that there is forgotten evidence revealed in the linguistic inscriptions on stones in Delphi (Greece) and Asia Minor (Turkey). These are written in Greek and in ‘another language’, which western scholars identify as Etruscan. In his study ‘The Language of the Etruscans’, L. Bonafonte identifies the ‘other language’ as Etruscan. My study of the Etruscan and Lydian languages reveals that these languages were closely related to the ancient and modern Macedonian language. Other apparent lexical correspondences between the Homeric and modern Macedonian are, for example: paimiti(s)-pamti; veido, veiden-vide; ischare-izgara, skara; idri-itar; kotule-katle; okkos-oko; steno-stenka; pliscios-seli, preseli; oditis-odi od odenje. There are a great many examples like this in the 1800 dictionary compiled by the German linguist Ludwig Franz Passoff on the basis of the most ancient extant manuscripts of Homer’s Iliad. The English edition was prepared by Henry George (New York, 1850). Not knowing the Macedonian language, Passoff concentrated on the most contrasting preserved words, unknown in Greek and Latin with the Czech and Slovak languages of that time. So these words were identified, in fact, as Slavic words. Hence, in my opinion the golden rule for analyzing a language is the aforementioned Functional Etymology. Since the functional relations of words are the fundamental building blocks of word forms, I name this rule the ‘GOLDEN RULE OF FUNCTIONAL ETYMOLOGY.’ In studies of the ancient and modern Macedonian language at the Canadian-Macedonian Historical Society in Toronto the priority project based on an earlier understanding is the question of ‘Studying The Macedonian Language--Ancient and Modern’. Another interesting topic is the problem of the ‘Lost Words in the Indo-European Language Exist Today in the Modern Macedonian Language’. In order to illustrate my argument in this respect, I focus on some examples of the genetic relationships between ancient and modern Macedonian language, through the Macedonian word daver, dever ‘brother in law’. When a young woman marries, the brother of her husband (usually the youngest) becomes a ‘dever’. This is an ancient tradition done to ensure that the young male is entrusted with the care of the family in case the husband dies or is killed. In such circumstances the youngest brother becomes the new husband and takes over the family. This was necessary to protect the children and keep accrued wealth and property within the same family. The meaning of the word in Macedonian, according to functional etymology could be extracted as follows: vera-verba-doverba-doveri-dever ‘to be entrusted’. This word belongs to a large cluster of Macedonian words containing the root (-verba-). In ancient Macedonian (1000 BC), according to Homer (p.305 L.L.) there is da-DAVER; dao(s), where the digama stands for/v/ and the word means ‘brother in law’. In the word daver-daer we note the missing consonant /v/ in inter vocalic position. This indicates that the rule of the speech economy has been in force for a long time in the language. Dropping consonants has been a rule quite often occurring in Macedonian as in the examples: to private >to praoite; covekot ojde > coekon ojde, etc. Yet in Greek ‘brother in law’ ginaika delfos ‘ginaika delfoos’, could obviously not be related to the Homeric daver-davero(s)."( Odisej K. Belchevski, Pages 29, 30, 31 and 32, Number 503, III 1995, Makedonija magazine). If you didn’t know who Homer was and happened to be reading his stories about the customs of the Trojans, you would think that he was talking about modern Macedonia. After three millenium, we find the same customs, crafts, hunting techniques, agricultural methods, etc. being practiced today. Be it spinning, weaving, dowry, hospitality, nature, or house design, everything else described in Homer’s epics, says Angelina Markus, is unchanged and present all around us today. (Page 56 and 57, July 1, 2000, number 575, Makedonija magazene. Another archeological source that provides evidence for the Macedonians is the work of German Toponimist Max Fasmer. Fasmer in his book "The Slavs in Greece" examines the origins of 334 prehistoric Phoenician toponyms in Epirus and concludes that they are of Slavic origin. Through his studies, Fasmer has discovered that there is a relationship between the ancient Phoenicians and the medieval Slavs. He also clearly emphasizes that that "Slavs" inhabited Epirus. What is also interesting is that in German, the words "Slaven" and "Vinden" are synonymous. Tashko Belchev furthers the idea that the Slavs inhabited the Balkans long before previously thought by connecting the Vindi, Veneti and Phoenician to a single family of people with common origins. (Page 68, February 1, 2001, number 591, Makedonija magazine). According to the writings of G. S. Grinevich, dealing with the subject of pre-Slavic literacy, the decoding and linguistic coding results show that pre-Slavic literacy existed much before the creation of the letters and coding of the Slavic language by the brothers St. Cyril and St. Methodi. This is more evidence that the proto-Slavs originated in Macedonia and according to Grinevich, the language spoken by the Aegean Pelasti is the same as that spoken by the pre-Slavs (p. 175). Grinevich has also stated that the pre-Slavic written language is very close to the Old Slavic written literary language of all Slavs. (Genadij Stanistavlovich Grinevich, World History Department, Russian Physical Society, Moscow, 1994) According to Alexander Donski, "There are many indications that the ancient Macedonians were of Venetic origin (the term "Slavic" came into use much later), and there is evidence in favor of this. Historical Evidence We can see from several ancient documentary sources that Macedonians and Hellenes were two different peoples. Some Greek, as well as Roman historians, have explored this view, and have left evidence collected from earlier periods, clearly showing that ancient Macedonians were of Venetic origin. Linguistic Evidence Although the surviving vocabulary of the ancient Macedonians is relatively small, it gives a good indication in favor of our thesis; which is, that the modern Macedonian language is at least in part the continuation of the language spoken by Alexander the Great and his contemporaries. Onomastic Evidence There is considerable heritage from the area of burial customs and archaeological remains. They contain many examples of sameness or similarity between the ancient and modern Macedonian, and other Slavic languages. There are also some narrative, oral testimonies pointing in the same direction." Alexander Donski has recently published a book on this subject, which will be available in English soon. A recently published book "Veneti: First Builders of European Community", considered to be one of the most comprehensive works on the early history of Slovenes, presents the Proto-Slavic Veneti as the first known nation of central Europe and the Slovenes as their most direct descendants. The Veneti (not to be confused with Venetians) settled in the alpine area in Slovenia, northern Italy, eastern Switzerland and Austria during the Bronze Age around 1200 B.C. In their original settlement area there are to this day countless Slovene place-names. These facts presented in the book are not new and have already been studied and reported by earlier researchers but for unknown reasons, have not been taken seriously. Besides important historical data, the authors of this book have presented numerous Slovene toponyms in the alpine region and to the west and north where the Veneti once lived. Also, the book reveals many similarities between the modern Slovene and the Venetic languages. Research done on the Venetic inscriptions has proven that not only was the ancient Venetic language (contrary to official linguistics) Proto-Slavic, but also that the modern Slovene language is a continuation of it. The first known nation of central Europe, according to the authors of this book, were the Proto-Slavic Veneti and the original language of central Europe before the arrival of the Indo-Europeans around 2,000 B.C. was Slavic. The book "Veneti: First Builders of European Community" is a first step towards the gradual correction of the "distorted history" which was "written for us" by foreigners. Until recently, no one had been able to decipher the Venetic script on the urns unearthed from archeological digs because no one ever thought of using the ancient Slavic language as a basis to try and solve this ancient mystery. So they say! Matej Bor, a Slovenian linguist, seems to have cracked the Venetic script using the Slovenian language. (Jozko Љavli, Matej Bor, Ivan Tomazic, "VENETI: First Builders of European Community") Soon perhaps, Macedonian researchers will compare notes with Slovenian researchers and shed some new light on this ancient mystery. In the article "Who is Afraid of Ancient Macedonian Culture, and Why?" Tashko Belchev talks about Deyan Medakovic, President of the Serbian Academy of Science and his attempts to cover up certain archeological facts that do not agree with mainstream Serbian history. On March 4, 1987 Academic, Vladimir Dediyer, President of the research board of the Serbian Academy, sent a letter to Deyan Madakovic complaining about his involvement in stopping the symposium devoted to the Vincha world which existed 6,000 – 3,000 years B.C. The symposium was organized by the Serbian Academy of Science and Art, the Historical Science Department and the Center for Scientific Research at the Faculty of Philosophy in Belgrade. Among other things, the letter chastised Medakovic with the words, "Damn you Deyan Medakovic, for your petty ambitions to be President of the Serbian Academy of Science. You are a sycophant to the authorities, breaking all human principles of behaviour. (L. Klyakic, ‘Beginning of the Road’, p. 56.)" (Page 69, August 1, 2000, number 579, Makedonija magazine). On the subject of the Vincha Group, Vasil Iliov, in an article in the Makedonija Magazine, talks about a discovery of a rather imposing monument containing an ancient script found in Sitovo cave, located near the city of Plovdiv in Bulgaria. The monument has two lines of inscriptions about 3.4 meters long and the text is about 40 centimeters high, written from right to left. According to Ilyov, the text can be dated back to 4,500 B.C. and is written in the ancient, prehistoric Macedonian phonetic language. The text, although not deciphered at the time, was published in 1950 and again in 1971. With Ilyov’s assistance, the text was finally deciphered in 1995. In a crude attempt, here is what it says in English "and the father-in-law ran in (flew in) and in the flight horrors have haunted him and there the house psalms (in the house they sing psalms) and in roast you are a guest of the ducks-go dream!" (Page 71, December 15, 1999, number 564-565, Makedonija magazine) You can decide for yourself what the ancient scribe wants to say. More importantly, it is not what the message says but rather that it has been deciphered and translated. Perhaps it is not a message meant for us. In any case here is Iliov’s interpretation. The duck in this message refers to an ancient swamp bird, which rises from a deceased person and carries his/her spirit to the blue sky. Ilyov has based his interpretation on an artifact in the shape of an anthropomorphic figure standing on a chariot drawn by harnessed swamp birds. The central figure is decorated with symbols of the sun and planets. Yet another source of archeological data in support of a Macedonian civilization comes from Bronze Age research. According to Vangel Bozhinovski (page 61, June 1, 2000, number 575, Makedonija magazine) the Neolithic civilization in Macedonia appeared 3,000 years before it appeared in Western Europe. Similarly the Bronze Age appeared in Macedonia 1,200 years earlier and the Iron Age 200 years earlier. The tragedy of the Bronze Age is reflected in the death and destruction it brought to Macedonia after it was introduced to Western Europe. In the hands of the Europeans to the North and to the West, the metal that once shaped art in Macedonia became a weapon of death and destruction. Was it mankind’s nature to crave war above peace? If we examine our behaviour by the amount of money we spend on our military budgets today, I would say yes. Almost all of the valuable artifacts made between 1,200 and 800 B.C. were discovered in cemeteries. Macedonia dubbed "the culture of the fields of urns" has an abundance of cemeteries. It seems that no matter how many are unearthed or destroyed there are plenty more to be found. It is in mankind’s nature to be this way says Vangel Bozhinovski, just look at the textbooks from which our children learn in school today and you will realize that civilization is nothing but an endless war. War is a western invention which was imported to Macedonia during the Bronze Age and has become our way of life ever since. It has been said that thousands of years ago many small tribal kingdoms occupied the region where the three continents meet (Europe, Asia and Africa). They lived off the land, traded, and peacefully co-existed with each other for many centuries. Even though they were known by many names, the people had a common ancestry and spoke dialects of the same language. For a thousand years the masters of the crafts possessed the secret of the metals with which they made their cities beautiful with sculptures and decorations. It was foretold that if the secret of the metal (bronze) was allowed to escape, the gods of peace would curse the people and allow disaster to befall them for a thousand years. Unfortunately, after a thousand years or so of contentment, ignoring the ancient warnings, the old masters became arrogant and careless and let the secret of the metal escape. No one could have predicted the outcome of what was about to happen, especially the gentle tribes who knew nothing of evil, violence or bloodshed. When the gods of war who lived to the north and west of the gentle tribes learned the secret of the metal, they forged mighty weapons. With promises of power and glory, they bewitched the tribesmen’s leaders to use the weapons against their enemies. Greed and lust for power soon blinded the tribesmen who unleashed bloodshed, death and destruction. When the cities of light turned to dust the wars ended and the dead were buried in cities of tombs below the surface of the earth where their bones lay in peace, undisturbed for all eternity or until archeology unearthed them. In 800 B.C. when the catastrophic wars were finally over, the survivors of the small tribal kingdoms were left weak, devastated and vulnerable. One of those small kingdoms was Macedonia. But Macedonia’s story does not end with the tribal wars, it only begins. There are those who believe that the name "Macedonia" was first spoken by the child warriors who longed to return home during the tribal wars. What they affectionately called "Makedon" was not their kingdom but their wish to return to "mother’s home". "Make" (mother) and "don" (home) or Makedon as it came to be known to the outside world, was "mother’s home" to the children of Macedonia. There are other stories that make reference to the meaning of the name "Makedon" but this, I believe, is the most realistic meaning. One of the oldest sources of evidence written on stone in the ancient Macedonian phonetic language dates back to the Neolithic period, to the time of the "Zets". I want to mention here that a "Zet" is a "son in law". From the deciphered inscriptions, it appears that the Zets of various tribes seemed to be involved in some sort of conflict with each other. Perhaps one of the most characteristic documents ever found was the text engraved on a stone in the shape of a long fish found in Osinchani, near Skopje. Here the inscription describes a battle between Zets expressing how one Zet subdued another. Another description that dates between 2,100 B.C. and 1,200 B.C., tells a boastful story of how the Zet Ig’Lal destroyed the Ege kingdom. (Vasil Ilyov, page 51, August 15, 2000, number 580, Makedonija magazine). Yet another Neolithic inscription from the Tsrna Loma or Ilina Gora locality, near the village Osinchani, conveys the following message: "taa, rechta, zasega e uteha na majkite, koishto loshoto voinata, niv gi oshteti", which in English translates roughly to, "the word for now is consolation for the mothers, whom the wicked war damaged". Outside of Homer’s epics, nothing has captured the young imagination more than the adventures of the ancient mythological gods and heroes. Were these gods and heroes exclusively Egyptian, Greek and Roman? Because that is exactly what the modern Greeks would want us to believe. Contrary to modern Greek claims, Professor Tashko Belchev believes that the mythology as we know it today originated in the fertile minds of much older people than the ancient Greeks, the ancient Macedonians. The Greeks simply took the mythology and adopted it for themselves. Even the word "mythology" comes from the ancient Macedonian words "mit" and "log". In modern Macedonian the word "mit" means "telling" or "bribing" (potmiti go, bribe him) and the word "log" (logika) means "logic" or "science". Putting the two words together we come up with "Mitlog" or, in modern Macedonian, "Mitologija" the science of telling or the science of "bribing" the young imagination. (Page 58, June 15, 2000, number 576, Makedonija magazine). Taking all evidence into consideration, it is not difficult to piece together a theory of what the pre-Macedonian world looked like. We already know a lot about the ancient city-states and how they dealt with overpopulation and expansion. For example, as each of the ancient city-states grew beyond the city’s ability to support its population, people were driven out or left voluntarily to start a new city. New settlements followed the coastline indicative of the peoples’ desire to pursue a familiar means of livelihood. The same principle can be applied to the pre-Macedonian inland dwellers who lived in what we today call geographical Macedonia. For personal protection and for companionship, the ancient people built their homes in close proximity similar to those of today’s modern villages. As the community grew in population beyond the land’s ability to support it, people moved and started new communities. This practice continued uninterrupted as long as there was space to expand. In time, the entire region of Macedonia became dotted with settlements. Unchecked by war, disease and pestilence, the populations grew and expanded outwards. Since the people of the various towns were related to each other, they maintained close contact through visits, celebrations, etc. which kept their traditions and language from diverging. The maximum population an ancient town could hold was dependent upon the land’s ability to support it. If a family could no longer make a living because it was too large for its land holdings, it either moved away in whole or split up. Some family members moved away to a smaller town or started a new community elsewhere. Newly founded towns usually took the name of the founding family. Keeping track of genealogy was very important for several reasons. Family size usually dictated social status in the community. The family clan protected its family members and expected certain loyalties from them in return. Marriages between family members were avoided by knowing who belonged to which family. It was common practice in those days for a young man to leave his own family, marry and become a Zet (son in law) in another family. Based on the ancient scripts, being a Zet had its privileges, including those of waging war on other Zets for control over the family. Because the Balkan terrain could not support uniform population growth, clusters of settlements developed usually with the larger towns in the fertile lowlands, surrounded by smaller towns in the highlands. As the older settlements grew and matured they began to trade with other settlements and developed transportation routes, commerce and a written language. They also developed a central administration, a security force and appointed central tribal leaders, who in time evolved into tribal kings. With the expansion of trade beyond the boundaries of the local community, the ancient people came into contact with other people who had new ideas and innovations. With the discovery of metal, powerful weapons were built and bloodshed and destruction was not too far behind. Even family squabbles over small matters turned violent and ugly. A society that valued kinship and family above all else had the tendency to stick together and interact freely and peacefully. Unfortunately, at around 1,200 B.C. something went terribly wrong and war erupted between the various groups (families?), bringing four centuries of death and devastation to the peace loving people of ancient Macedonia. Documented but not well understood are ancient "kinship and family ties". Kinship was very important to the ancient people of Macedonia who ranked it at the top of their value system. A good example of this is Philip II’s marriages to various women from his annexed worlds. Marriages were a powerful symbol for bonding family ties and for forging powerful alliances. This custom may seem bizarre today but it was common practice in ancient Macedonia. From a cultural and linguistic standpoint, the close relationship between the ancient societies allowed free interaction between the various peoples and kept their language and culture from diverging. This could account for the widespread Slav language commonality we are witnessing today. Thus far, I have given you a glimpse of the remnants of an old prehistoric world with a rich culture and language. The sources of information that I have referenced provide valuable evidence of the existence of a world never before acknowledged. Also, the deciphered inscriptions and translated texts not only suggest that a pre-historic civilization existed, but also that the people of this old world are the ancestors of the modern Macedonians. Some of the artifacts, like the stone writings and the "Iliad" translations, have been discovered and deciphered since the 1990’s but to this day they have not attracted the attention of mainstream archeology and paleolinguistics. Why? I believe there are several reasons for this: 1. There are some who think the work is not serious enough to warrant their consideration. 2. Others, especially the highly paid administrators, are satisfied with the status quo and don’t want to rock the boat. 3. Yet others believe that any involvement on their part could undermine the entire foundation of ancient history as we now know it. 4. Unfortunately, there are also those, myself included, who believe that mainstream ancient history as we know it today, had been fabricated to support the political objectives of the 19th century Great Powers and their allies. As George Orwell once pointed out, "Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past." History is written by the victors. As I mentioned earlier, when the foundation of ancient history was laid down by the 19th century revisionists, it was done in aid of political objectives. Modern Greece was created by the Western Powers expressly to curtail Slavic expansionism. Moreover, Greece was created to divide the Slavs and stop Imperial Russia from achieving her long ambition of sailing the waters of the Mediterranean Sea. In their zeal to satisfy their own ambitions, the 19th century Powers, perhaps unbeknownst to them at the time, unleashed a "Balkan turmoil" that would have long lasting consequences for the Balkan people. People that existed together, united for centuries by a common faith, were divided without their consent and thrown into disarray by artificially imposed values and ideals. A century has passed and peace has not been achieved. Why? When the Western Powers superficially created Greece in 1829, they launched her on a polemic course, her survival to be made possible only at the expense of the Macedonian nation. The problems experienced between Greece and Macedonia today are nothing new but another stage in a continuous and timeless struggle. Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia have generated more literature to disprove the existence of a Macedonian nation than they have written books about their own histories. This is truly sad and such a waste of effort.
edlund This article is too long. I read about 1/3 of it and it seems a very good article. I can say nothing against it. But I must say that this article is concerning the ancient Macedonia. We in Bulgaria also learn that there was an ancient macedonian nation, different from the greek. But it was slowly assimilated. After the disappearance of the ancient macedonians the word "macedonian" is used for describing people who live in the lands of Macedonia. I can tell you the population of Macedonia in year 1900 : общо население - 2,258,000 души българи-християни - 1,032,533 българи-мохамедани - 148,803 (или общо - 1,181,336) турци-мохамедани - 494,964 турци-християни - 4,240 гърци-християни - 214,329 гърци-мохамедани - 14,373 арнаути-мохамедани- 119,201 арнаути-християни - 9,510 власи-християни - 77,267 власи-мохамедани - 3,500 евреи - 67,840 цигани-християни - 19,500 цигани-мохамедани - 35,057 черкези - 2,837 сърби-християни - 400 сърби-мохамедани - 300 арменци - 300 All of this people were called "macedonians", but macedonian nation in this time didn't exist. My grandgrandfather participated in the Ilinden rage and he fought for Bulgaria, because he was bulgarian and never heard of macedonian nation. There is something interesting about the word macedonian. Here is what Otto Kronsteiner says about it: Към наименованието (глотонима) македонски: Прилагателното македонски (бълг. македонски, гр. , алб. maqedonas) не се е използвало като глотоним преди 1944 г. Дотогава македонски е прилагателно за обозначаване на областта (хороним) Македония. Тъй като след 1944 (почти никога) не е ясно дали при употребата на думата македонски се има предвид хоронима или глотонома, възникна понятийно объркване (и съзнателио предизвикано), което се оказа благоприятно за установяване на митовете на македонската нация. Създаде се впечатлението, че този език едва ли не от вечни времена е език на "страната" Македония. Александър Велики е македонец, Кирил и Методий са македонци, но също и Кемал Ататюрк (нещо, което често се премълчава) е македонец. Нито един от посочените обаче има нещо общо с македонския книжовен език на господин Блаже Конески (т. е. Благой Конев). И за да бъде заблудата пълна, в учебниците по история и география е написано: "В СРМ живеят македонци, албанци, турци и др.". Това заграбване на държавни имена в сполучливо средство за насилствено обособяване (срвн. французите, бретонците, баските – всички жители на Франция) и т. н. вместо френските французи, бретонските французи, баскските французи или (при общата територия на един народ) френските бретонци, френските баски и т. н. Коректно е да се казва: българските македонци, албанските македонци, турските македонци и т.н. (в случая жителите на република Македония) или – както се пишеше в цялата научна литература до 1944 г. (напр. Вайганд) - македонските българи, македонските албанци, македонските турци и т. н. (при общата територия на един народ). Тъй като чрез новия македонски език досегашният български престана да съществува официално (!), т. е. стана (силно отдалечен!) чужд език, глотонимът и етнонимът български също изчезнаха.
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Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia have generated more literature to disprove the existence of a Macedonian nation than they have written books about their own histories. This is truly sad and such a waste of effort.
As i said we in Bulgaria know that there was an ancient macedonian nation, but also know that it has nothing to do with todays macedonians, except that they live in the same lands. About the destroying of archeological artifacts by the greek - we also know that they do this. They have other interests and they are related to the ancient Macedonia. Nobody in Bulgaria destroys historical materials, because in the history there are no materials that prove the existing of a macedonian nation after the seventh century (even before seventh century but I can't tell an exact year when the macedonians were assimilated). There is a bulgarian scientist, director of the national historical museum, Божидар Димитров, who will give 100 000 Euro to anyone who gives him a historical prove or document or anything, that speaks about a macedonian nationality before the 20th century.
melpomena I can tell you the population of Macedonia in year 1900 :
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общо население - 2,258,000 души българи-християни - 1,032,533 българи-мохамедани - 148,803 (или общо - 1,181,336) турци-мохамедани - 494,964 турци-християни - 4,240 гърци-християни - 214,329 гърци-мохамедани - 14,373 арнаути-мохамедани- 119,201 арнаути-християни - 9,510 власи-християни - 77,267 власи-мохамедани - 3,500 евреи - 67,840 цигани-християни - 19,500 цигани-мохамедани - 35,057 черкези - 2,837 сърби-християни - 400 сърби-мохамедани - 300 арменци - 300
Ova se edlund podatoci od Bugarskata istorija, ne od Makedonskata, shto normalno e razlichna od Srpskata, i od Grchkata. TI kazhav ednash sekoj si ja kreira istorijata za svoite potrebi.
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As i said we in Bulgaria know that there was an ancient macedonian nation, but also know that it has nothing to do with todays macedonians, except that they live in the same lands
. Druga rabota, nie sme sloveni toa e fakt, sepak Slovenite koga se doselile tuka ne nashle pusta nenaselena zemja, taa bila naselena so Antichki Makedonci. Shto znachi kaj otishle tie? Ischeznale? Sosema e realno deka se izmeshale so Slovenite.
Strelec edlund... nemoj da mi zameris, megjutoa od vakvite jalovi nadmudruvanja sum poveke od iscrpen... pred otprilika edna ili dve godini potrosiv nekolku meseci na eden bugarski forum, na koj sekoj na svoj nacin argumentirase i se obiduvase na razni nacini i da ja dokaze 'svojata' vistina... ti vo svojot post kazuvas za svojata grandmother, ama i drugite lugje (za tvoja nesreka) imale grandparents... i ne vi odi vo prilog toa sto sakate da iskrivite mnogu 'sveza' istorija... da se obidevte da me ubedite vo nesto sto se slucuvalo iljadnici godini porano, mozda i bi uspeale... ama konstruiranje na 'prikazni' za pred 50 ili 100 godini e najblago receno - ludost... znaci jas ne se povikuvam ovojpat na moeto ucenje vo skolo, ne se povikuvam nitu na kazuvanjata na moite babi i dedovci (na koi Gospod im ovozmozi da doziveat relativno dlaboka starost), zatoa sto povikuvajki se na moite argumenti ubeden sum deka samo bi predizvikal prodolzuvanje na vakvite bespolezni diskusii... zatoa, najuctivo i najdobronamerno ti preporacuvam uste ednas da go procitas prviot post na Melpomena na ovaa tema i da izvleces pouka i poraka od toa...
edlund Ok. Jaс си знам дека не мога да ви убедя, овоj документ за jазикот го постнах за да обясня зашто България не признава сегашниот македонски jазик. Българският форум овоj ли беше - [url]http://clubs.dir.bg/postlist.php?Cat=7&Board=maked[/url]? Там нема модератор, посетителите знаят много работи, разполагат с хиляди докази, македонци там веке почти не пишуват, понеже нема какво да кажат:) There is a bulgarian scientist, director of the national historical museum, Божидар Димитров, who will give 100 000 Euro to anyone who gives him a historical prove or document or anything, that speaks about a macedonian nationality before the 20th century. This is absolutely true, the 100 000 Euro prize is announced few years ago and nobody comes to take it. I have to say that I was insulted by some people here when saying that the article "Angliskiot zbororvi so poteklo od Makedonija" is stupid. My arguments are that the mentioned words are slavonic and can not be ancient macedonian words. DJ Shema told me that he thinks the current macedonian language is the same as the ancient. Other people - like Melpomena, Thief, told me that the current macedonian language is slavonic. If it is slavonic then the article "Angliskiot zbororvi so poteklo od Makedonija" can not be taken seriously.
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edlund... nemoj da mi zameris, megjutoa od vakvite jalovi nadmudruvanja sum poveke od iscrpen... pred otprilika edna ili dve godini potrosiv nekolku meseci na eden bugarski forum, na koj sekoj na svoj nacin argumentirase i se obiduvase na razni nacini i da ja dokaze 'svojata' vistina...
The fact that some macedonians think that their language is not slavonic and has nothing to do with bulgarian, and the fact that other people think that all the slavonic languages come from macedonian mean that your history is not so clear. All the things that I said about your history were because I was insulted. I really came to this forums to communicate, not to convince you in some things.
melpomena edlund ako ti si bil navreden, shto treba da kazham jas koga mi go napisha poston za popisot vo Makedonija 1900? Izvini ama jas barem imam srekja da si gi znam predcite nekoi 10 kolena nanazad. Mojot pradedo bil utepan od Bugari na mnogu svirep nachin (sigurno ne poradi toa shto i samiot bil Bugar)? I mislam deka treba da se slozhime so Strelec i da ja prestaneme besmislenava diskusija. Mene, a kako shto dobiv vpechatok i na povekjemina na Forumot, ne im smeta deka si Bugar i ne go osporuvame tvoeto nacionalno poteklo. Zatoa mislam deka i ti treba da prifatish deka nie sme Makedonci i nishto drugo osven Makedonci.
edlund И jас си ги знам прадедовците 10 колена назад. Постон за пописот во Македония 1900 го напишах заштото преди това от други бех навреден.
edlund DJ Shema, ако не сакаш нешто да кажуваш - убаво, верно е дека jас немам прашаньа.
edlund Оште нешто, най-веке кон Thief Во горните два site-a които ти дадох да разгледаш можеш да видиш дека и во двата ги има освен Никола Вапцаров и Константин Миладинов оште Райко Жинзифов и Григор Пърличев. Ето ти тука да четеш Райко Жинзифов и да ми кажуваш стихотворението "Глас" на каков jазик е писано: [url]http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~dusko/InfoMak/literature/RZhinzifov.html[/url] Во македонскиот site се споменува за поемата "Крвава кошула" на Жинзифов, ето тука можеш да видиш самата поема: [url]http://slovoto.orbitel.bg/showwork.php3?AuID=29&T1=%CA%FA%F0%E2%E0%E2%E0%20%EA%EE%F8%F3%EB%FF&Add1=%EE%F2%EA%FA%F1[/url] ПОГЛЕДНИ ВНИМАТЕЛНО ПРВИОТ РЕД!
Thief И знаејќи ги своите колена, самиот веќе напиша, мајка ти слупа Радио Скопје. Бугарин= а)Макеоднец со испран мозок; б)неосознаен Макеоднец; в)нема трето! Јазикот е словенски, ама постоењето на антички македонски јазик е неспорно, како и фактот дека мал број зборови продреле до денешниот макеоднски (а, и не само македонски јазик). Немајќи пичани документи за овој јазик, можеме да тврдиме со сигурност само за 150 збора(глоси) за кои и науката потврдува дека се антички макеоднски!
edlund И jас, и оште много българи сме осознати македонци, само дека за нас "македонец" означува "човек от областта Македония", а не "човек от националността македонска". Знам, дека не мога да ви убедя в обратното на вашите вервания, затова само пак ке повторя - българите не мрзат македонците, сепак не можем да мрзим бракята си.
DJ_SHEMA Dobro vie pijani ste ili shto e problemot? Ne gledate kako se podebava so vas na suptilen nachin? Sega duri i brakja stanavme. Edlund, kratko i jasno odgovori na slednive prashanja: 1) Dali ja priznavash Makedonija kako sovremena, sueverena i samostojna drzava na Balkanot so deneshnite granici? Da ili ne? 2) Dali go priznavash Maedonskiot jazik kako samostoen jazik, del od familijata na slovenskite jazik i ramopraven so srbskiot, bugarskiot, ruskiot, itn.? Da ili ne? 3) Dali ja pochituvash Makedonskata nacija kako posebna nacija, razlichna od srbite, bugarite, grcite, itn? Da ili ne? 4) Dali veruvash deka imalo Balkanska Vojna vo 1912? Da ili ne? 5) Dali veruvash deka vtorata balkanska vojna bila za raspodelba na Makedonija? Mozesh da obrazlozish tuka podlaboko ako odgovorish ne. 6) Dali veruvash deka del od Makedonija e momentalno vo Bugarija? 7) Shto mislish za versajskata klauzula dokolku eden del od Makedonija stane nezavisen deka i drugite dva dela bi trebalo da napravat referendum i da se prikluchat kon ovaa samostojna drzava?
edlund Веднага ке ти одговора. Thief си го каза дека сме един народ, което одговаря на първите ти три прашаниа - имаме един jaзик, една история, една литература, едни национални герои. Немам против и България да стане Македония, мен ми е все таа (само дека ке станат исторички недоразумения, но те и сега си стават.) 4) Да, верувам разбира се. Пак ке кажа дека прадедо ми се е бил в оваа война, България е водила тази война за да освободи Македония (не за да я завземе!) Лошото е дека србите ни преебават и зимат по-големата част от Македония, като после започват терор над населението и ги принуждават да се нарекат македонци, за което пак имам много докази ама айде заеби го. 5) Да, втората балканска война е била за разподелба на Македония. Тъй като србите и гърците са превзели голема част от Македония, българите дават кръвта си и животите си за да освободят македонската земя. (пак прадедо ми[:)] Той умира от раните си, получени в таа война) Това вие сега не го знаете и не го и верувате. 6)Да, разбира се. В македонскиот дел, кой во момента е во България ги има градовете Гоце Делчев, Сандански, можеш да идеш там и да прашаш хората какви са по националност и какви са били по националност Гоце Делчев, Яне Сандански, Даме Груев и т.н. И оште можеш да ги прашаш дали са чували некога за "незачитане на човешките права на македонците во България". 7) За таа Версайска клауза не сум чувал, но ми се чини смислена.
DJ_SHEMA Moze na angliski da mi odgovorish zoshto ne te razbiram kako shto treba. Ako ne ti e teshko kazi mi shto mislish za vesnikot Narodna Volja koj se izdava vo Pirinska Makedonija?
DJ_SHEMA
quote:
Originally posted by AaaAa
Shema, imalo i ima i srpski politicari koj go osporuvaat makedonskiot narod, jazik , a najpovekje crkva, ama poradi tie poedinci nie ne se praime na toso prema site i ne generalizirame. fakt e deka mnogu povise bugari ne osporuvaat ama to neznaci ceka sekoj eden koj ke se pojavi ke treba da se fati na noz. Generalizacija e mnogu losa rabota. Ako ti si imal loso iskustvo so poedinci makar bile toa i 100, neznaci deka site bugari se odvratni vakvi i onakvi. daj im na lugjevo sansa, i ne im davaj pricina povekje da te mrzat. Spustajki se na nivoto na nekolkuminata e toa shto gi razoruva odnosite. ubo rece mimi, taka ucele; ti mislish deka nivnoto e gresno , tie pak se ubedeni deka ti si greska. A toa dali Srbive imaat pretenzii prema makedonija u nekoja druga prilika :)Hrvatite se daleku, i nikogash nemale teritorijalni dopirni tocki so makedonija za razlika od drugive .
Anush Bash deka hrvatite se daleku i srbite nemaat javni pretenzii kon Makedonija ne e golem problem dokolku se stavi po nekoj post na srpski ili hrvatski. Do pred nekoja godina toj beshe i oficijalen jazik vo nashata republika pa site go znaeme dosta dobro. Ama koga bugarite ni go osporuvaat nashiot jazik mislam deka treba site nie da sme svesni za toa i da se trudime da se odrzuva separacija pomedju ovie dva razlichni jazici. A i ne me pravi sega i ti mene nacionalist [:)]. Ne gi mrazam ja bugarite kako narod, tuku mrazam shpiuni bugarski koi dremat po Makedonski forumi i samo podbuckuvaat, provociraat i lajat nevistini. Gi znaesh i samata ciganite shto doadjaa na big-blue. Sum imal i jas prijateli bugari koi znaele da me pochituvaat kako Makedonec i nemalo nikakvi problemi. Jas nemam nishto protiv da se diskutira okolu Makedonskata istorija i da se razmeni mislenje so ludje od okolnite nashi drzavi zoshto se slozuvam deka so toa moze samo povekje da se nauchi i da se dobijat poshiroki pogledi kon rabotite. Samo problemot kaj ovie nekolku bugarski shpiuni e toa shto ne prifakjaat tudjo mislenje i samo lajat edno te isto. Istotaka, doadjaat na nash forum i bez sram i perde ja navreduvaat nashata nacionalnost, nashiot jazik i nashata istorija.
edlund [:)] I treated your national identity again, right? [:p] Defend your identity, but I think that you understood everything in my post, just didn't like it[8D] What do you want to prove now? We don't have the same language because you don't understand me? Then I have to tell you that I understand every single word of you, and I don't even live in the bulgarian part of macedonia. I have to tell you that there everybody speaks your language:) So, you want a translation, here it is: Thief said, that we are one people, which answers your first three questions - we have the same language, same history, same literature, same national heroes. I wouldn't have anything against it if Bulgaria becomes Macedonia, I don't care (there will be historical misunderstandings but there are such now too.) 4)Yes, of course. Bulgaria led this war to free Macedonia (not to conquer it!) What is bad is that the serbians fucked us up and took the bigger part of Macedonia and began to terrorize the macedonian population, convincing them to call themselves macedonians, I have many proves for that too but fuck it. 5)Yes, the second balkan war was for sharing Macedonia. Because serbians and greeks did conquer a big part of Macedonia the bulgarian soldiers gave their blood for the freedom of Macedonia. You (the current macedonians) don't know this and don't believe it. 6)Yes, of course. In the part of macedonia, which is now in Bulgaria, are placed the towns Goce Delchev, Sandanski. You can go there and ask the people what is their nationality (don't have to do this in english, you can ask them in macedonian;) and what was the nationality of Goce Delchev, Jane Sandanski, Dame Gruev etc. You can also ask them if they have ever heard of "denial of human rights of the macedonian minority in Bulgaria". 7) Haven't heard of this clause, but it makes sense to me.
Thief Хахахха, клети пропагандисти! Се обидуваат дури и моите зборови да ги извртат во нивна корист! Ова е кулминација (да не речам ВРВ) на нивната глупост! Немам и нема да имам понатаму коментари на темава! Само да напоменам: да! Имаме заеднички јазик (зашто макеоднките просветители го создале!), имаме и заедничка историја (ја крадете нашата)...преку глава ми е од јалови надмудрувања! Разбирам и српско-хрватски (сите дијалекти на српскиот, хрватскиот и бошњачкиот), разбирам и бугарски, и англиски (претходниве јазици дури и ги зборувам), разбирам (ама потешко ми оди зборувањето) француски, руски и шпански и... Voila! Доаѓам до епохалното откитие: макеоднскиот е различен од сите претходни! А, бугарскиот? Бледа копија на архаичната верзија на макеоднскиот, која во тоа време не била ставена во рамка! АРХАИЧНА верзија: во процесто на усовршување на јазиците, создавање на светски ценета литература и книжевност (да, да, различни поими се!) далкеку сме пред источниот сосед, а помалку постои нашиот јазик „на хартија“ (се разбира оти причините за тоа треба да се бараат во многуилјадното постоење на македонскиот јазик без рамка, без светска поддршка за негово кодифицирање, ама сепак постоел!).
edlund Thief, ти зборуваш далеко повеке глупости от DJ Shema, он зборува смислено, само дека не е бил во България и не знае некои нешта. Ти си фантазираш.
quote:
во процесто на усовршување на јазиците, создавање на светски ценета литература и книжевност (да, да, различни поими се!) далкеку сме пред источниот сосед
Чини ми се дека не много е запазено до денешен ден от македонската книжевност, можеш да сравниш колко македонски автора има тук: [url]http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~dusko/InfoMak/literature/[/url] и колко български автора има тук: [url]http://slovoto.orbitel.bg/authors.php3[/url] И оште можеш да видиш дека Константин Миладинов и Никола Вапцаров ги има и в двете книжевности;)
quote:
Бугарин= а)Макеоднец со испран мозок; б)неосознаен Макеоднец; в)нема трето!
Това какво означува? Дека сме един народ, нали? Другите нешта от типа "бугарскиот произлиза от АРХАИЧНИОТ (???) македонски" и "бугарите крадат македонската историja" са пълен абсурд, нема нужда да ги коментирам. Чекам одговор от DJ Shema.
DJ_SHEMA Na koe prashanje chekash odgovor?
Strelec verojatno misli da dades komentar na negoviot odgovor...:)
DJ_SHEMA edlund Why was Djorche Petrov killed and by who? And you didn't answer me what do you think about Narodna Volja, what are they doing for whose cause are the fighting for?
Thief Никола Јонков Вапцаров? Коле Неделковски? А, колку Бугари има на бугарски сајт? Ха! Пак ме смееш...ја зборувам глупости? Ја цитирам светската лингвистичка наука! Ја цитирам славистиката, ако не ти одговара...немам решение за твојот проблем!
edlund
quote:
во процесто на усовршување на јазиците, создавање на светски ценета литература и книжевност (да, да, различни поими се!) далкеку сме пред источниот сосед, а помалку постои нашиот јазик „на хартија“ (се разбира оти причините за тоа треба да се бараат во многуилјадното постоење на македонскиот јазик без рамка, без светска поддршка за негово кодифицирање, ама сепак постоел!).
Сега, ако не си луд, можеш ли да ми обесниш как така македонците са создали светски ценета литература и книжевност, само дека она не е "на хартийа"? От уста на уста ли са си предавали светската ценета литература?
edlund Одговорот е - македонци са создали много литература, имало е много учени люде македонци, само дека са се самоопределяли като българи. (Справка - Райко Жизнзифов, бракя Миладинови, Никола Вапцаров - он е един от най-големите български поети) Това е факт, който не може да се скрие, но може да се изопачи, така е и сторено от србската пропаганда и "учени" като Блаже Конески (неговото вистинско име е Благой Конев, учил е и во София)
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by DJ_SHEMA
edlund Why was Djorche Petrov killed and by who?
As far as I know he is a founder of VMRO and when VMRO splits he is killed by other members of VMRO.
DJ_SHEMA
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
quote:
Originally posted by DJ_SHEMA
edlund Why was Djorche Petrov killed and by who?
As far as I know he is a founder of VMRO and when VMRO splits he is killed by other members of VMRO.
What was he fighting for? And why did VMRP split? And please answer the questions about Narodna volja.
edlund VMRO was fighting originally for joining the free Bulgaria, but when it was clear that the great countries and our neighbours - serbia, greece, rumania, don't want Bulgaria to become this big, the VMRO strategy changed to the idea of a distinct country Macedonia with freedom for all the nations living in Macedonia. I don't know what was Gjorche Petrov fighting for but I suppose that he was fighting for a distinct Macedonia, a very good idea I must say. About the "Narodna Volja" - May be this is the only source where a bulgarian macedonian can read about the "denial of human rights of the macedonian minority in Bulgaria". But I doubt anybody cares about this news(toilet)paper. And I wonder how many pieces are sold from it. And I have to add that this newspaper is published freely in Bulgaria, but I know that it's forbidden to publish a bulgarian newspaper in Macedonia.
Strelec edlund, a kako ke go iskomentiras faktot deka posle 2-rata svetska vojna na sekoj popis drasticno se namaluvase brojot na naselenieto sto vo Bugarija se izjasnuvaa kako makedonci? samo nemoj da ja spomnuvas onaa najglupava mozna 'odbrana' deka naselenieto so sila se teralo da se izjasnuvaat kako makedonci...:( taa kvazi teorija veke ja imam cueno...:)
edlund Появили са се по времето на комунизмот, най-вероятно заштото им се е плащало от србското правителство или знам ли йас. (Сега слушам македонците "Санаториум", много са яки и не мога да мислам како людете:) Каним те да доагяш во България да се запознаеш со малко български македонци, да си позборувате со тех за овие нешта, ама да не се обиждаш ей! И на мен не ми е много ясно како са се появили тия македонци по националност во България, па и са толкова малко че и никой не го интересуват.
DJ_SHEMA ok SO VMRO was fighting for a greater bulgaria, but they wanted to call themselves a Macedonian organization, eh? How does that makes sense? If I start an organization today to work on joining the Macedonian territories, will I call myself The secret Greek Revolutionalry Organization, or Bulgarian, or Serbian? The hints are there my freinds, it's just who sees them. How come we are the only ones that have been fed with "comunist" bulshit? Have you considered that maybe you were fed with non-sense in your history? Narodna Volja is a great paper that nurtures the Macedonian herritage in a country that denies the Macedonian existense. The fact that they exist, should tell you that there may be significant number of Macedonians (by nationality, herritage, language) in Bulgaria. If we were one nation, how come even after 50 years they still have not forgotten their nationality and do not want to accepted the pressure that they are Bulgarians? How come they still speak Macedonian, sing Macedonian songs, recognize the macedonian heroes, and hope to one day be safe to say they are Macedonians in Bulgaria?
edlund Па и йас като се напиям, па и да не се напиям, си пеям македонски песни: [code]Даали ииима на овой белий свет, по убаво девойче от македончеее!![/code] Миналиот петък во дискотеката беше една българска певачка - Татяна, голем кеф беше, а най се изкефих кога запя "Македонска хубост" (таа песна спечели Пирин Фолк таа година:)
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by DJ_SHEMA
ok SO VMRO was fighting for a greater bulgaria, but they wanted to call themselves a Macedonian organization, eh? How does that makes sense? If I start an organization today to work on joining the Macedonian territories, will I call myself The secret Greek Revolutionalry Organization, or Bulgarian, or Serbian?
Гледай сега, Ватрешно Македонската Революционна Организация е ватрешна понеже е во Македония, разумиш ли? Естествено дека е македонска, сепак се бори за Македония. Твоята хипотетична организация би се нарекувала "грцка" ако ти си от егейска Македония и сакаш да я присоединиш егейската Македония кон сегашната Македония (па може и кон България;) Само дека тамошните македонци ич не ги знам какво им е положението завалиите. П.С. Извинувай ме дека ти пишувам на тоа йазик, и йас не знам веке каков е, ако кажуваш пак ке ти превеждам на английски:)
edlund
quote:
Originally posted by DJ_SHEMA
Narodna Volja is a great paper that nurtures the Macedonian herritage in a country that denies the Macedonian existense. The fact that they exist, should tell you that there may be significant number of Macedonians (by nationality, herritage, language) in Bulgaria. If we were one nation, how come even after 50 years they still have not forgotten their nationality and do not want to accepted the pressure that they are Bulgarians? How come they still speak Macedonian, sing Macedonian songs, recognize the macedonian heroes, and hope to one day be safe to say they are Macedonians in Bulgaria?
Everybody in Bulgaria, even the people from Dolno Nanagornishte recognizes the macedonian heroes and sings the macedonian songs and is absolutely free call himself macedonian. The point is that everybody thinks that bulgarians and macedonians are one people.
Strelec
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
И на мен не ми е много ясно како са се появили тия македонци по националност во България...
edlund... velis deka ne ti e jasno nitu tebe!? emi svesen li si be sto kazvas? pa ne se odnesuva toa za dvajca i trojca lugje... tuku za stotici i stotici iljadi lugje...! mislis li deka ima osnova i ponatamu da se razgovara, barem dodeka tova prvin i tebe ne ti stane asno...:)))
BorisVM
quote:
Originally posted by edlund Everybody in Bulgaria, even the people from Dolno Nanagornishte recognizes the macedonian heroes and sings the macedonian songs and is absolutely free call himself macedonian. The point is that everybody thinks that bulgarians and macedonians are one people.
Your statement above makes a generalization of the worst kind. If by "everybody" you define a small minority of Macedonians who think this way in order to get a Bulgarian passport, then sure, I agree. But if everybody includes all Macedonians, then your statement is for a lack of better word preposterous. I for one don't think and never will for that matter that Macedonians and Bulgarians are "one people". Won't happen. I can only be Macedonian, nothing more, nothing less. I can never declare myself something that I'm not: Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian [fill in the blanks here for any other nationality] Please don't come to a Macedonian forum and then try to "convince" me or anybody else that we are "one people", that Macedonian language is a derivative of Bulgarian, etc, etc. It won't work, regardless of your "scientific" arguments.
edlund Yes, of course, Boris, I know it's impossible to convince you that you are some other nationality. My proofs here are more literatural than scientific but they are still 100% true.
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The point is that everybody thinks that bulgarians and macedonians are one people.
I was talking about everybody in Bulgaria. And once again about Bulgaria - I am absolutely free to call myself macedonian, to sing macedonian songs, to tell the names of the macedonian heroes, to speak the macedonian language and to walk dressed in the macedonian national flag (of course the people will be laughing at the last thing:) There was a topic "How do you know if you are a macedonian" in the "Fun forum" here. I can do (and actually do) all this things (to drink rakia, to eat salam... :))) and nobody will think of me as a foreigner, that's it:))
edlund
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Originally posted by Strelec
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Originally posted by edlund
И на мен не ми е много ясно како са се появили тия македонци по националност во България...
edlund... velis deka ne ti e jasno nitu tebe!? emi svesen li si be sto kazvas? pa ne se odnesuva toa za dvajca i trojca lugje... tuku za stotici i stotici iljadi lugje...! mislis li deka ima osnova i ponatamu da se razgovara, barem dodeka tova prvin i tebe ne ti stane asno...:)))
Има основа, како да нема! Македонци както казах има хиляди во България, сите са по националност българи. Тия дето са по националност македонци се броят на пръсти и са се появили по времето на комунизмот кога Сталин е следвал своята максима "Където нема малцинства ке ги создадем".
Strelec
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Originally posted by edlund
Тия дето са по националност македонци се броят на пръсти и са се появили по времето на комунизмот кога Сталин е следвал своята максима "Където нема малцинства ке ги создадем".
hahaha...:))) pa ti si fenomen covece...:))) ti da ne imas 200 iljadi prsti na racete...? samo vo Pirinska Makedonija na vtoriot povoen popis vo Bugarija 178 iljadi lugje se izjasnile kako Makedonci... od kade ti se rodi taa zelba, ne nas, tuku da se ubedis samiot deka 200 iljadi makedonci se izjasnile deka se makedonci, samo za cest na Stalin da mu napravat...:)))))))
edlund Па ке ти обеснувам как, не ми се кажуваше и това оти пак е свързано со роднини и т.н. ама айде. Значи чичо на баба ми е идвал в нейниот град да се лекува (он живеел в Македония). Разправял дека требело да се пише каков е по националност и се писал българин, и жена му се писала българка. Двамата му сина обаче се писали македонци:) И после бил отведен в полицейското управление да биде "советван" да се пишува македонец и затова после отишел да се лекува от тези "совети". Йас кажувам пак - елате во България и ми ги покажете тия 200 000 люде от македонската националност. И пак кажувам дека вашите данни са фалшиви, и то да беа само фалшиви ами са си и бая измислени. Верно, може да е писало во некой србски вестник "200 000 македонци во Пиринска Македония", и тие верно сите са македонци, оти живеят во областта Македония, но националниот им идентитет е български. А йас имам пак едно прашанье - можете ли да ми кажете во моментот какво е населението на Македония, официална статистика има ли?
Strelec
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Originally posted by edlund
Па ке ти обеснувам как, не ми се кажуваше и това оти пак е свързано со роднини и т.н. ама айде. Значи чичо на баба ми...
epa izvini... cicoto e navistina dokaz deka bugarite masovno bile prinuduvani da se cuvstvuvaat kako makedonci... ama jas ne znaev za cicoto na baba ti... ovoj fakt definitivno ke ja smeni makedonskata teorija... i seto toa blagodarejki mu na cicoto na baba mu na edlund...:)))
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Originally posted by edlund
...може да е писало во некой србски вестник "200 000 македонци во Пиринска Македония"...
ova mi veli deka namerite tvoi ne se cesni i deka e gubenje vreme so tebe da se polemizira... taa brojka za 200 iljadi makedonci ne e dobien od 'srbski vesnik', tuku toa e od oficijalen popis vo Bugarija... a stom za taa oficijalna brojka se povikuvas ti na 'srbski vesnik', mozam slobodno da konstatiram deka se' sto si pisuval denovive e samo propaganda, provokacija i cinizam...
edlund Да бе, убаво, мисли си каквото си сакаш, йас сум лош шовинист и фашистички окупатор и со другите бугаро-татаро-монголи колим и бесим клетите македонци во Пирина и не им даваме да си пеят песните и да си пият ракията и да си ядат салама. Нема да повтарям едно и сашто нешто по 10 пъти, ако не си ме разбрал досега и занапред нема да ме разбереш.
Strelec
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Originally posted by edlund
Нема да повтарям едно и сашто нешто по 10 пъти, ако не си ме разбрал досега и занапред нема да ме разбереш.
odlicno... najposle se razbravme deka ne mozeme da se razbereme... i se soglasivme deka ne mozeme da se soglasime...:)
DJ_SHEMA
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Originally posted by edlund
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Originally posted by DJ_SHEMA
Narodna Volja is a great paper that nurtures the Macedonian herritage in a country that denies the Macedonian existense. The fact that they exist, should tell you that there may be significant number of Macedonians (by nationality, herritage, language) in Bulgaria. If we were one nation, how come even after 50 years they still have not forgotten their nationality and do not want to accepted the pressure that they are Bulgarians? How come they still speak Macedonian, sing Macedonian songs, recognize the macedonian heroes, and hope to one day be safe to say they are Macedonians in Bulgaria?
Everybody in Bulgaria, even the people from Dolno Nanagornishte recognizes the macedonian heroes and sings the macedonian songs and is absolutely free call himself macedonian. The point is that everybody thinks that bulgarians and macedonians are one people.
You will need to translate the VMRO deal because I didn't understood your answer. Second, plese explain me this phenomenon that everybody in bulgaria thinks that macedonians and bulgarians are "one people", than how come there is a different name for both people? I have never seen on nation with two different names. Serbs are serbs, you have croat serbs, but they are still serbs. If you think we are all bulgarians that you need to consider us bulgarians. If you consider us as macedonians then we are seperate entity, non? And the point that "you are macedonian if you do this" is for laughing. I have read the same text for serbs, greeks, montenerians, it is more less same for all balkan nations. Do not mix Balkan mentality with nationality. And you are pushing your luck with your usage of bulgarian language here.
mafisKumA edlund, AND YOUR POINT IS???????????
edlund OK, DJ SHEMA, here we go again: I think for the fifth time in this topic I say this - Macedonia is a region. Under macedonian we, the bulgarians, understand a man who lives in the macedonian region. That's why there are many macedonians in the Pirin region:) I see that this is something that you, the macedonians, can not imagine. Under macedonian you understand the macedonian nation and you are wondering how come there are 100% bulgarians who are macedonians. Yes, there are. The people from the town Goce Delchev for example (and everywhere in southwestern Bulgaria) are 100% bulgarians, they don't have macedonian citizenship, they feel bulgarians, but still know that they live in the macedonian region and that they speak the macedonian dialect of the bulgarian language. I know that this is some information that you are not going to like but this is the reality. Now, when the communism is over such things can not be hidden. About the VMRO - I don't think that this is so important, it's related to my words about the understanding of the term "macedonian" as a term for a region - the VMRO is makedonian organization because it is in the macedonian region and is fighting for the freedom of the people living there. That's why this organization is very famous in Bulgaria, there is still a political organization VMRO here and some of my friends voted for it at the last election.
edlund
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Originally posted by mafisKumA
edlund, AND YOUR POINT IS???????????
My simple point my friend was to tell that the article "English words with macedonian origin" is bullshit. Than I was offended, there were some questions, I answered them and there were some more questions and that's the story:) But maybe the only thing that I want you to understand is that many of the things that you know about Bulgaria are wrong - like that we hate macedonians, we don't give them human rights, there are even some macedonians from MACEDONIA that think that it's very hard for us to accept macedonian songs on the TV. But the truth is that in Bulgaria you can hear macedonian songs in every pub, you can hear macedonian speech all over the southwestern Bulgaria and noone has nothing against it.
AaaAa
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Originally posted by DJ_SHEMA
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Originally posted by AaaAa
Shema, imalo i ima i srpski politicari koj go osporuvaat makedonskiot narod, jazik , a najpovekje crkva, ama poradi tie poedinci nie ne se praime na toso prema site i ne generalizirame. fakt e deka mnogu povise bugari ne osporuvaat ama to neznaci ceka sekoj eden koj ke se pojavi ke treba da se fati na noz. Generalizacija e mnogu losa rabota. Ako ti si imal loso iskustvo so poedinci makar bile toa i 100, neznaci deka site bugari se odvratni vakvi i onakvi. daj im na lugjevo sansa, i ne im davaj pricina povekje da te mrzat. Spustajki se na nivoto na nekolkuminata e toa shto gi razoruva odnosite. ubo rece mimi, taka ucele; ti mislish deka nivnoto e gresno , tie pak se ubedeni deka ti si greska. A toa dali Srbive imaat pretenzii prema makedonija u nekoja druga prilika :)Hrvatite se daleku, i nikogash nemale teritorijalni dopirni tocki so makedonija za razlika od drugive .
Anush Bash deka hrvatite se daleku i srbite nemaat javni pretenzii kon Makedonija ne e golem problem dokolku se stavi po nekoj post na srpski ili hrvatski. Do pred nekoja godina toj beshe i oficijalen jazik vo nashata republika pa site go znaeme dosta dobro. Ama koga bugarite ni go osporuvaat nashiot jazik mislam deka treba site nie da sme svesni za toa i da se trudime da se odrzuva separacija pomedju ovie dva razlichni jazici. A i ne me pravi sega i ti mene nacionalist [:)]. Ne gi mrazam ja bugarite kako narod, tuku mrazam shpiuni bugarski koi dremat po Makedonski forumi i samo podbuckuvaat, provociraat i lajat nevistini. Gi znaesh i samata ciganite shto doadjaa na big-blue. Sum imal i jas prijateli bugari koi znaele da me pochituvaat kako Makedonec i nemalo nikakvi problemi. Jas nemam nishto protiv da se diskutira okolu Makedonskata istorija i da se razmeni mislenje so ludje od okolnite nashi drzavi zoshto se slozuvam deka so toa moze samo povekje da se nauchi i da se dobijat poshiroki pogledi kon rabotite. Samo problemot kaj ovie nekolku bugarski shpiuni e toa shto ne prifakjaat tudjo mislenje i samo lajat edno te isto. Istotaka, doadjaat na nash forum i bez sram i perde ja navreduvaat nashata nacionalnost, nashiot jazik i nashata istorija.
Abe vidi, toa se negovi ubeduvanja koi u princip se pricinata zashto tie idat i provociraat ovde, i problemot ne e vo nivnoto provociranje, tuku vo toa shto nie im obrakjame vnimanie:) jas Bugarski razbiram , no ne zatoa shto e ist ko Makedonskiot, tuku zatoa shto e strasno blizok ( normalno ko vlece koreni od nasiot) i mi trebaa dve idenja u Bugarija da gi voocam razlikive, nekolku druzenja so bugari i troa bugarska televizija da go naucam znacenjeto na zborovite koi se totalno razlicni. Pametno dete sum jas :) Da gi pcovam i brkam od ovde ne gledam pricina, bidejki so toa ke pokazam deka mi smetaat mislejki deka go zagrozuvaat mojot nacionalen identitet, jazik itn. Daleku se od toa, i tesko deka nekogash ke im uspee. Znam samo deka edno ke im uspee, a toa go voociv pred nekoja godina vo Varna koga na stand za knigi procitav kniga so naslov ( vo prevod) "Bil CLinton i negovoto Bugarsko poteklo). Lugjevo ako prodolzat vaka nema nikogash da uspeat da izgradat avtenticen Bugarski identitet, ako ikogash go imale, i vo ovaa trka po grabanje tugjo ke go izgubat i ona malku shto go imaat ( jasa gakji i adidas trenjerica u bela carapa) sala mala ;) Srbive ni go priznavaat jazikot, no ne i granicite i crkvata... Seto toa e edna balkanska prljavstina sto site ne dovede na ivicata na svetskata civilizacija. na toa nivo neam namera da se spustam , zatoa i ti prerekov , ne za drugo
AaaAa I duri sea primetiv deka vie ste otisle do 7ma stranica. Ocigledno strasno nemate shto da praite u slobodno vreme, na eden izguben Bugarin mu objasnuvate shto e toa kniga u princip.A da go stipendiravte da otidese deckoto den skolo da zavrsese ?bolje delo ke napraevte:-)
edlund
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Originally posted by AaaAa mi trebaa dve idenja u Bugarija da gi voocam razlikive
Have you met somebody from the 200 000 real macedonians in Bulgaria who don't have human rights?
melpomena Edlund navistina go pretera. Prvo viaskh dojdov da se duzham so makedonci, posle provocirash na site mozhni nachini i celiot si konfuzen ko turlitava, taka da i da sakam na neshto da ti odgovoram neznam od ka da pochnam. SEga u Bugarija ima antichki Makedonci, a u Makedonija imalo samo sloveni. Ajde de, kako uspeavte da ne se izmeshate so tie Antichki Makedonci, a kako kaj nas ovde uspea se zhivo da se isfiltrizira!
edlund
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Originally posted by melpomena
Slushaj da ti kazham.... Antichkite Makedonci imale prava vo Bugarija? Izvini zborat na antichki jazik? :) Druga rabota da ne gi meshame eve Makedoncite. Kolku Turci imate u BUgarija, i koga tie dobija pravo da si zborat Turski, i da se deklariraat kako Turci? ...Ili sea i tie se antichki Turci, onie Turcite Seldzuci?:)
I would have stopped this discussion because you don't seem to read my posts or to understand them, but I will answer this question: There are absolutely no ancient macedonians left neither in Bulgaria, nor in the country beginning with F.... If you are interested go to the bulgarian part of macedonia and ask the people what is their nationality and which language do they speak and with which dialect.