| Десетте Лаги на Македонизмот |
| aaron |
edited by admin
|
| f9 |
You have post topic wich have been all ready piece by piece discused in previous topics.If there havent something new exept yours conclusions,I have to inform you that with this topic every "Bulgarian" is opening his
discusions on this forum ,and it is boring.Afther all on the end of all that we come up with some final discrepancies that can be finalised with
simple truth that Bulgarians today are not at all Real Bulgarians and that is the reason that for Macedonians whatever you say will be useles spending of time and money.When you have proof that today Bulgarians have etnic rooths in Real Bulgarians,than maybe have some right to claim
Bulgarian name for "Bulgaria".Even then you again have problem because influence and settlement of Real Bulgarian have been much much smoller
even can say not exsistent in Macedonia.Today "Bulgarians" have based their etnic identity on the race and nation wich havent nothing in common with.It is anyway your right.You can decide to be from Maritan nation,but let it be same right for anyone else. |
| aaron |
It seems that you guys got little nervous and decided to delete my post about the 10 lies of Macedonism.I wonder why would that be? I respect all the rules of your forum. Is the reason because of something Mr. Dimitrov said in his book that you don't want people to see. Let me tell you that nobody would edit any of your posts in any Bulgarian website dedicated to history. I know the truth hurts but you have to get used to it cause you will hear more and more of it in the future. Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore remember. You can't hide the real facts by censorship, the times have changed. I wish you could accept that fact.Do you know what the problem is with all of you " Macedonians ". You just can't have normal discussion about the history of Macedonia. We give you facts; you look the other way and then swear at us or delete the post. I know this is because you have lived with these Slav animals the Serbs and their primitive mindset had somehow influenced you but that's not the way of civilized people. I hate to break it to you but this way you are not going to convince nobody of your point of view. |
| wolf_pack |
aaron, do u always post a similar idea twice? |
| aaron |
Gjorgi Radule duri i knigata "Koj ja falsifikuva istorijata" ja napisha kako odgovor na tezite na Bozhidar Dimitrov
Why don't you let me post the book from Bojidar Dimitrov again and then post the book from this guy.This way everyone could decide for himself who is right and who is wrong.You know the saying:
Kogato faktite govoriat i bogovete molcat. |
| wolf_pack |
hey aaron, what's your real name there buddy? |
| aaron |
You want to know my real name. It is actually Samouil.My father give it to me because he loved the book written by Dimitar Talev about Tsar Samouil.Do you know who Dimitar Talev is, where is he from and what happened to him after the communists came to power in Bulgaria? How about Simeon Radev and his book about his childhood and young years in Resen? Is there anybody here who even glanced books like this just out of curiosity? |
| wolf_pack |
Well Samouil, why don't you open a topic about Dimitar Talev and his book on Tsar Samouil instead of vehemently provoking the other member?
This is a forum where most of us are grownups, try n be more assertive in your posts, and let us know the message behind it. So far you've copied and pasted the 10 Macedonian Lies and also u've pasted an article on Arben Xhaferi.
Think think think, use your head wisely, I'm sure ur father can share the story about Mr. Radev and his life in Resen. |
| aaron |
I posted few other things too.You might want to check the other topics.I don't intend to engage on personal attacks to anybody here.What I want is the facts and documents to speak for itself.There is nothing offensive in the book of Bojidar Dimitrov.If you look at things from my prospective you might find offensive the fact that many at this forum are denying that the Battle for Macedonia ( as the Greeks call it ) in it's very beggining was a struggle to preserve the Bulgarian identity and character of Macedonia against Greeks asimilation attempts.After 1878 the aim was to join the independent Bulgarian State.So many great people have sicrificed themselfs to achieve this ideal. Not to defend their memories would be a disgrace.Bratia Miladinovi,Goce Delcev,Todor Alexandrov to name a few deserve at least that. Nobody including me would deny your history after 1945.But you too have to accept the fact that your separate national identity was formed over the last 60 years. This is the only possible compromise since nobody in Bulgaria in his right mind would allow you to steal parts of the Bulgarian history in order to reinforce your separate identity. |
| ZooGraf |
quote:
Originally posted by f9
Pechateno e od Srbinov..ski.
Tuku za filmot,ajde mafnete gi ovie...stalno neshto da kazhat spored nivna prizma.
Nastanot beshe filmuvan od Hrvatskata Televizija vo krajot na sedumdesetite godini.Togash techeshe edna serija za nastani pred i za vreme na vtorata svetska vojna vo Dalmacija Split.Poveke nastani od cela togashna Jugoslavija bea zemeni kako lajt motivi.Edna epizoda beshe posvetena na ovoj nastan.Site nastani vo tie epizodi bea vistiniti,no samo im bea smenati mestata i nacionalnostite.
"Velo misto"? |
| f9 |
Da!, mi se chini bash taka se vikashe.Imam zaboraeno,no mnogu dobro se sekjavam na diskusiite vo Ohrid za toa. |
| toni_a |
sto bidna be "Spelling"??
se iznerviravme pa novi topici??
ha ha ha [:D][:D][:D]
bidi mi so zdravje... |
| f9 |
Sega e sledno da se otvori tema:"Istorijata na iljada temi protiv Makedonizmot na forumot VMacedonia",a poznato ni e deka kade shto se povtoruva iljada pati edna laga,tamu taa postanuva vistina.Temava e veke odrabotena i nekolku pati povtorena i Gjorgi Radule duri i knigata "Koj ja falsifikuva istorijata" ja napisha kako odgovor na tezite na Bozhidar Dimitrov.Toa znachi deka
toj shto ja otvoril temava ima za cel da shiri propaganda i temava bi tebalo da se zatvori. |
| Goran-Skopje |
Alooooo, abe ama go nashtanca ova, koj kje go prochita be...vidi, kako da branish tema..aaaauuuu.[:D] |
| toni_a |
quote:
Originally posted by f9
Sega e sledno da se otvori tema:"Istorijata na iljada temi protiv Makedonizmot na forumot VMacedonia",a poznato ni e deka kade shto se povtoruva iljada pati edna laga,tamu taa postanuva vistina.Temava e veke odrabotena i nekolku pati povtorena i Gjorgi Radule duri i knigata "Koj ja falsifikuva istorijata" ja napisha kako odgovor na tezite na Bozhidar Dimitrov.Toa znachi deka
toj shto ja otvoril temava ima za cel da shiri propaganda i temava bi tebalo da se zatvori.
tuka go chekav "tori" na edno drugo mesto...no toj/taa izbega [:D]
ps-duri i na "bugarski"...za da razbere chovekot [;)] |
| wolf_pack |
lele aaron, bash sakam da znam shto title ke ti stavat adminite sega[:D] |
| toni_a |
lele lugje ako pochnam da vi raspravam koj "trup" bev po istorija ke se utepate od smeenje [:D]
borba vodev (principielna) so Mirchevska od "Orce" [:D]
ps-izgleda za bugarive dovolno sum nauchil... [:D][:D][:D] |
| dejan |
It's all true!!:(((( *cries* |
| wolf_pack |
bez sekiracija Deki, da pochekame prvo shto tatarski title ke dobie noviot manga :D
Istiot post go ima na 2 topika. |
| dejan |
Ma podobro bugari kako aaron da ne se ni pojavuvat tuka, glava me boli od niv!!:(( |
| wolf_pack |
Ako ste site zabelezhale dobro, hehe, site bugari shto doagat tuka i pishaa na b'lgarski dobija opomena...sega site do eden replicirat na MK? wtf? mnogu dobro razbirat all of a sudden.
Daj opomenete gi i za glupostite shto gi treskat i svrshena rabota :D
Posle ke chekame Grci da dojdat. |
| Thunder from down under |
quote:
Originally posted by dejan
It's all true!!:(((( *cries*
are you serious dejan ? |
| dejan |
lol! no haha:p |
| jingibi |
edited by admin. Macedonian or English only!!! |
| f9 |
Shto ke ni e shkolo koga ve imame vas...[xx(] |
| БТЦРК |
I am absolutely on the same satate of mind as aaron and will like to add that it is not you who re-writen and made up the "new history", but it was serbs greeks and corupt macedonian landlords. |
| suschestvo |
quote:
Originally posted by БТЦРК
I am absolutely on the same state of mind as aaron and will like to add that it is not you who re-writen and made up the "new history", but it was serbs greeks and corupt macedonian landlords.
.
poveke od jasno e kakov " state of mind" imate vie.
Dobredojdeni ste na forumov, dokolku ne treskate zeleni. Ova ne e mesto za sirenje na propaganda, posebno Bugarska. Ako sakate da prosirete znaenja povelete, no ne ste dobredojdeni da solite pamet.
|
| ZooGraf |
quote:
Originally posted by aaron
I posted few other things too.You might want to check the other topics.I don't intend to engage on personal attacks to anybody here.What I want is the facts and documents to speak for itself.There is nothing offensive in the book of Bojidar Dimitrov.If you look at things from my prospective you might find offensive the fact that many at this forum are denying that the Battle for Macedonia ( as the Greeks call it ) in it's very beggining was a struggle to preserve the Bulgarian identity and character of Macedonia against Greeks asimilation attempts.After 1878 the aim was to join the independent Bulgarian State.So many great people have sicrificed themselfs to achieve this ideal. Not to defend their memories would be a disgrace.Bratia Miladinovi,Goce Delcev,Todor Alexandrov to name a few deserve at least that. Nobody including me would deny your history after 1945.But you too have to accept the fact that your separate national identity was formed over the last 60 years. This is the only possible compromise since nobody in Bulgaria in his right mind would allow you to steal parts of the Bulgarian history in order to reinforce your separate identity.
Compromise
Main Entry: compromise
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -mised; -mis·ing
transitive senses
1 obsolete : to bind by mutual agreement
2 : to adjust or settle by mutual concessions
3 a : to expose to suspicion, discredit, or mischief b : to reveal or expose to an unauthorized person and especially to an enemy <confidential information was compromised> c : to cause the impairment of <a compromised immune system> <a seriously compromised patient>
intransitive senses
1 a : to come to agreement by mutual concession b : to find or follow a way between extremes
2 : to make a shameful or disreputable concession <wouldn't compromise with their principles>
I fail to see what compromise you are talking about. Is more like: Our way or the highway. What exactly is your compromise? That today there is separate Macedonian nation? Great sacrifice, indeed.
|
| aaron |
And what do you suggest? The we should just let some people in Republic of Macedonia to continue to falsify parts of the Bulgarian history in order to justify the crimes they've committed against the Bulgarian majority there. Please check my topic about the Carnegie report of 1913 and you will understand why nobody in his right mind in Bulgaria will permit them to do that. And I say some people in Macedonia because even after so much effort to erase any sign of Bulgarian national identity this feeling still exist both in Egaiska and Vardarska Macedonia. |
| ZooGraf |
quote:
Originally posted by aaron
And what do you suggest? The we should just let some people in Republic of Macedonia to continue to falsify parts of the Bulgarian history in order to justify the crimes they've committed against the Bulgarian majority there. Please check my topic about the Carnegie report of 1913 and you will understand why nobody in his right mind in Bulgaria will permit them to do that. And I say some people in Macedonia because even after so much effort to erase any sign of Bulgarian national identity this feeling still exist both in Egaiska and Vardarska Macedonia.
I am not suggesting anything. You are the one talking about a compromise which I failed to see as one.
"..The crimes they've committed against the Bulgarian majority there..". This kind of statements are exactly why are you largely ignored here. The majority in RoM are Macedonians. Your assertion that we suddenly popped out of nowhere in 1944, shows that you taking the whole issue not very realistically. I believe that many Bulgarians hoped that with the disintegration of Yugoslavia, Macedonia would naturally join Bulgaria. It must be very disappointing and baffling for you people when that did not occur. Your heavy presence in all Macedonian internet forums, just shows that deep inside of you, you are hoping that we will see the "truth", and reverse our "Makedonism".
But I tell you what. One day I hope, it may be soon, it may be in 50 years, there will be a joint venture of Bulgarian and Macedonian historians in an effort to come up with a mainstream version of all the events in the past. Until then, perhaps most of the Bulgarians and Macedonians will be able to see their history more pragmatically and less emotionally.
If I am not right, we are doomed to argue until there is no bandwidth in the cyberspace. |
| aaron |
To Zoograf:
I thank you for your civilized and very measured response. The joint look at our history has been offered to your historians multiple times but I don't believe they will accept it anytime soon. And I know this because it just so happened that I graduated from Sofia University with Master Degree of Archeology. Believe me when I tell you. I’m from a family that has its roots in a village around Ohrid, we still have relatives there and since my early childhood Macedonia was the most important thing for everyone in our family. If the historical and archaeological sources that I studied and searched had any evidence of the existence of "Macedonians" I would be the first to say that I'm one of them. But I'm not going to try to convince you of anything here in this post. I will just agree with you and say that I hope you are right and one day we are able somehow to resolve this issue. As they say:
"All the good things come to those who wait"
|
| NINOCHKA |
Aaron and the other Bulgarian dude,
thank you for your concern about our national identity; let me enlighten you however. We have had a well established national identity for longer than many countries such as Germany (learn your Romanticism lessons); it is not considered a truism by our neighbours such as you because of the years of oppression. It is true that history is many times invented for us as well as it was invented for you; but not to the extent which you are implying. Oh and speaking of facts they are of course good, but if you will present facts present all facts, right now you are following an inocnsistency in doing so. Hence, I ask myself are you telling the truth? Or are you telling a very selective truth? - This is a contradiction in terms, so think again. Since you are so concerned with the identity of nations have you thought of glancing at some sophisticated books about it? If you want I can give you some publications from world-renowned authors.
Finally, if you go to Macedonia nowadays you will see that we speak our own language, we have our own traditions, and yes we are a an absolute autonomous nation. Oh and if we were Bulgarians shouldn't we look physically like Bulgarians? I know I certainly do not look like a Bulgarian woman, no pun intended. |
| ZooGraf |
Yes, I am aware that there was attempts to come up with a joint outlook. But I don't know of the details of what exactly was proposed by the Bulgarians. Still I hope this time is different (although this is one of the most abused statement) as Macedonia is independent state and both countries are democracies (kind of).
I am too from Ohrid, as both of my parents are born there. Although I am not born there and lived in different cities and countries, Ohrid is the first place on my list of what can be called home. All people that I know there are describing themselves as Macedonians and nothing else, including my grandparents, some of which attended Exarchate school. The history of Macedonia is extremely convoluted and no one-sided view can explain everything.
|
| jingibi |
Oh and if we were Bulgarians shouldn't we look physically like Bulgarians?
ТИ ИЗТРЕПА РИБАТА.Знаеме дека во Израел има разни раси, но тука сме едни и исти и ова е доказано отсекаде /без Донски се разбира/.
|
| aaron |
Busy to respond to your posts I forgot one very important thing. This topic started when I posted the book " 10 Lies of Macedonism" by Bojidar Dimitrov that was later removed by the Admin.In a way I think that is an illustration of the kind the "dialogue" that takes place between our 2 countries. The main problem in my opinion is the LACK OF HONESTY. And I will respectfully disagree that I've presented selective fact on this forum. I present the facts the way I know them. If you have facts that show the opposite to what I know let's hear them. Believe me I will not look the other way if I determine that the information you presented is genuine.I will not post the book by Dimitrov again but I will give you a link to a website where you can read it.
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/10_Lies_Macedonism.htm
If you decide to read it I'm asking you to do that.Find me the book that somebody mention earlier in this topic.A book that suppose to respond to Bojidar Dimitrov.It's name is:
"Koi ia falsifikuva istoriata" and the author is Gjorgi Radule.I tried but I couldn't find any trace of such a book maybe you can help me.
|
| f9 |
"I’m from a family that has its roots in a village around Ohrid, we still have relatives there and since my early childhood Macedonia was the most important thing for everyone in our family."
Ok...so you like to say that you have descended from around Ohrid,and on top of that you have been studied archeology.Dude,you are stupid or gone in your mind?What?
1.On this forum have some hundred very active members exatly from Ohrid and his surounding.I dont know other place on the net where you can find more concentrated people from that region.
2.You tell me from which place exatly your relatives are and I will tell you
exatly who they are and from where they have come.
3.If you are archeologist then you are stupid archeologist,because at least for Ohrid history in the last 5 years we know more then ever before.And if you wish to know more about that there are plenty of ways.
4.Actualy people from ohrid and part of his surounding are descendant from
Antic Macedonians.
5.All this who are in that "Ratko" bulgarian society,are not from Ohrid or his surounding.So not even to try to tell me that they are somehow connected with the original population from Ohrid.
6.Because you have tryed ,I will post provocational topic for Ohrid peoples
and your Bulgarian descendance from Ohrid region~so you read what others from Ohrid will say...here:
http://forums.vmacedonia.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13588&results=1 |
| dejan |
Aaron are you telling us the truth, or are you making up some bull shit (no surprise there) just to reaffirm your points?? HM?? Don't try and lie PLEASE |
| aaron |
Why would I lie to you?This is nothing unusual in Bulgaria.I was born and raised in Sofia,I'm Bulgarian an my family roots are from Ohridsko.There are literally hundreds of tousands of Bulgarians who can trace their roots to Vardarska ili Egeiska Macedonia.They came as a refugees after the Balkan War, second wave came after the First World War.Many went as far as Varna by the Black See.They did that because they considered themselves Bulgarians. |
| aaron |
To f9
I don't know where your information about the identity of the population around Ohrid come from but my mine comes from a source you can trust.Do you know who Alexander Lepavcov is? I'm sure you remember him since he was in the govenment of Macedonia. Here is a link for you f9:
http://www.standartnews.com/archive/2005/11/28/balkans/s4632_2.htm
http://www.standartnews.com/archive/2006/01/31/worldfolio/index.htm
|
| f9 |
Саво и Любчо Коцареви от Охрид
Ako mislish deka Kocarevi se Bugari,da vo pravo si!Jas sum po poteklo star Ohrigjanec i kako shto ti rekov ja znam cela istorija na Ohridsko.
Ivan Kocarev e potomok na Kocarev Bugarski nachalnik po poteklo od Sofija koj se naselil vo Ohrid zatoa shto se zaljubil vo Ohrid i ne sakal da se vrati nazad.Koga doshle Bugarite vo 2 sv.Vojna so bugarite Keckarov
i Kocarev ke postane glaven na Ohridskata bugarska uprava.I trite familii nemaat koreni od Ohrid.Inaku trojcata i denes se tovarat za krazhbata na celiot crkoven imot vo Ikoni,knigi i zlatni i srebreni crkovni predmenti
sobrani i preneseni vo Bugarija na privremeno chuvanje pri shto ovie Bugari vo ime na upravata na togashen Ohrid go potpishale toj dogovor so Okupacionata Bugarska vojska.I pokraj baranjeto na Makedonija ovie predmeti da im se vratat na Ohrigjani Bugarija odbiva bilo kakvo vrakjanje.Inaku gradot Ohrid se ochekuva da pokrene sudska postapka za vrakjanje na
ukradenite predmenti. |
| f9 |
Sakash za ljupcho Kocare...zhena ljupka frizerkata.sin Pande ima i kerka postara,Kafeandzhija kaj Podmolje.Ima kukja na preminot od Mesokastro kon
Kaneo.Za vreme na komunizmot raboti i kako potkazhuvach na Vmrovci i sluga na policijata.Da se otvorat arhivite ke se vidi negovoto "delo".Skoro site komunistichki direktori na pogolemi firmi mu bea redovni gosti,taka "golemite"troshoci bea krieni.Da ne recham i za specijalnite uslugi koj im gi praveshe,koga ovie glavuchi ke se iznalokaa.Chovek od doverba na sistemot.Pande nema vrska so dejanijata na tatkomu.
Informaciite mi se od sopstveno znaenje i iskustvo,zashto Ohrid e mal i site se znaeme koj sme shto sme i od kade sme.
A sega ti kazhi mi od koe mesto si od okolinata... |
| aaron |
I can't give you that information.For all I know you coulld be
UDBA-sh.Since you are from Ohrid you know better than me how many people went to Goly Otok or were punished in some other way for declaring themselves Bulgarians. |
| f9 |
Tunte umre,da beshe zhiv ke ti pomogneshe,ama vaka ti nema spas.
Paranojata dlabogo ti navlegla vo psihata... |
| toni_a |
aaron
ama za drugoto se slozhuvash so F9 !?
nekako epten vi se slabi komentarite posle ova! pa "nemozham"...ajde na drugi tie prikaski...
aj,ke pustite sega nesto sto nema vrska so temava i "gotovo"...[xx(] |
| f9 |
Ma tresit od rakav...na Goli otok od Ohrid beshe Petre Piruze
koj bil bukvalno neprijatel broj eden so Ilija Kocarev Bugarskiot kmet naznachen za Ohrid.Pa toj Piruze go stavi 20 godini vo zatvor zasto Petre toa i beshe- minister za pravosudstvo.Piruze ushte vo septemvri-oktomvri 41 ta organizira podrachna edinica za
agitacija na lugeto vo Partizani i e direkten protivni na Ivan Kocarev.Kocarev pravi provala i gi apsi:Blagoja Zhura,Pere Rupe ,Dimche Kanevche,Dimche Malenko...se do red Ohrigjani,aj da ne zborvam za Andon Dukov ili za Pavlina shto go vlechkala od Podmolje do Ohrid ranet i koj i umrel po pat.I vo1949/1950 vo Staroto kino na ovie luge im se sudeshe.Samo eden k*rtili glava i toa e tatkomu na onoj Nanche shto se kandidirashe za gradonachalnik.Go pushtija zashto bil maloletnik.Site niv vkluchuvajki go Piruze gi pushtija na Goli Otok.Posle gi rehabilitiraa polovichno,ama celosno vo denovive na samostojnost.
Na ovie luge ne mu se sudeshe za nikakvo bugarofilstvo...tie bea smrtni neprijateli na bugarofilite.bea chisti Makedonisti.
Neka kazhat de lazarevci ..zoshto.neka kazhat zoshto i koj i koga i kade i kako.
Ovoj ovde shto tresi gluposti kako Bugarofili bile vo Goli Otok vrska nema.Duri e grozna i samata pomisla za toa.Ne mozhe eden Ivan Kocarev da se stava na isto ramnishte so negoviot neprijatel
Petre Piruze.Toa e gadosta na komunizmot na Kolishevski.Kolishevski ne kazha zoshto go pikna zatvor...no se podchu deka za provalata i sudenjeto koga bil osuden propeal bash toj Lazo. |
| krum |
I thing you guys I writing things that has nothing to do with the subject of this topic.I'm still waiting for information about the book that supposedly answers all the questions Bojidar Dimitrov raises in his " 10 lies of macedonism".What all this has to do with my relatives in Ohridsko? |
| Strelec |
quote:
Originally posted by krum
I thing you guys I writing things that has nothing to do with the subject of this topic.I'm still waiting for information about the book that supposedly answers all the questions Bojidar Dimitrov raises in his " 10 lies of macedonism".What all this has to do with my relatives in Ohridsko?
Правилото бр. 13 на овој форум вели:
Додека сте отстранети од форумов (времено или трајно) не е дозволено регистрирање нови кориснички имиња. Секое новорегистрирано корисничко име ќе биде избришано и може да придонесе за ваше трајно отстранување од форумов.
Поради прекршување на ова правило, aaron ќе биде отстранет на малку подолг период од овој форум!
|
| suschestvo |
quote:
Originally posted by f9
Ma tresit od rakav...na Goli otok od Ohrid beshe Petre Piruze
koj bil bukvalno neprijatel broj eden so Ilija Kocarev Bugarskiot kmet naznachen za Ohrid.Pa toj Piruze go stavi 20 godini vo zatvor zasto Petre toa i beshe- minister za pravosudstvo.Piruze ushte vo septemvri-oktomvri 41 ta organizira podrachna edinica za
agitacija na lugeto vo Partizani i e direkten protivni na Ivan Kocarev.Kocarev pravi provala i gi apsi:Blagoja Zhura,Pere Rupe ,Dimche Kanevche,Dimche Malenko...se do red Ohrigjani,aj da ne zborvam za Andon Dukov ili za Pavlina shto go vlechkala od Podmolje do Ohrid ranet i koj i umrel po pat.I vo1949/1950 vo Staroto kino na ovie luge im se sudeshe.Samo eden k*rtili glava i toa e tatkomu na onoj Nanche shto se kandidirashe za gradonachalnik.Go pushtija zashto bil maloletnik.Site niv vkluchuvajki go Piruze gi pushtija na Goli Otok.Posle gi rehabilitiraa polovichno,ama celosno vo denovive na samostojnost.
Na ovie luge ne mu se sudeshe za nikakvo bugarofilstvo...tie bea smrtni neprijateli na bugarofilite.bea chisti Makedonisti.
Neka kazhat de lazarevci ..zoshto.neka kazhat zoshto i koj i koga i kade i kako.
Ovoj ovde shto tresi gluposti kako Bugarofili bile vo Goli Otok vrska nema.Duri e grozna i samata pomisla za toa.Ne mozhe eden Ivan Kocarev da se stava na isto ramnishte so negoviot neprijatel
Petre Piruze.Toa e gadosta na komunizmot na Kolishevski.Kolishevski ne kazha zoshto go pikna zatvor...no se podchu deka za provalata i sudenjeto koga bil osuden propeal bash toj Lazo.
I jas sum od starite Oh. Taka da mozam da potvrdam za se sto pisuva na topikov od f9.
To e edno, drugo postojat poveke od samo eden odgovor na tie 10 gluposti sto gi kazuvate. Kje pocnam od niv, znaci ako nekoj nesto napisal neznaci deka e taka, vtoro za nekoi raboti gledani od strana odgovorite stojt samo ovde kaj nas, ili dokolku preferirate i vaka; Ako nekoja politika i propaganda so vekovi se trudi da gi izmenuva ili razoblicuva faktite i vistinata i Vie uporno se drzite za nea , toa ama bas nedrzi mesto za komentar.
Sega za onie raboti koi gi lupate bez vrska, jas kje vi kazam.
1.Vo pisuvanjeto i istrazuvanjeto na nekoi lugje od Ohrid koi samite kazuvaat deka sme bliski so Bugarite, velat prvo:pobliski sma za razlika od srbite. => mislenjeto e samo kontrateza za bliskosta so komunistickotot vreme.
2. Znaci vo cela Mk postojat privrzanici na edna ili druga strana (Bugarija i Srbija), ottamu mozat da se najdat nekoi bliski misli koi gi citirate.
3. Za Kocare koj bil nacalnik vo Bugarskoto, setal po ulici vikajki deka e Bugarin, go mislele za supeljka. Istiot toj ko dosle Srbite cutel i se umilkuval. Vo so uspeal i naklevatil nekolku lugje megju koi i dedo mi, koj bil zatvoren vo Uc`stakot bugarski. Imalo kodosi koi gi potkazvale lugjeto, bile zatvorani i lugje koi peele nebugarski pesni- pesmi za Makedonija.
4. cesto gledam deka citirate i delovi na D. Sprostranov ov Ohrid. Da vi kazam za del od negovoto pisuvanje za vesnik od Sofija. Vo nego prvo bile pisuvani samo recenzirani delovi, tocno e deka imal naklonost kon Bg, no , vo nekoi slucki gi opisuva Bugarskite cetnici po Mk, koi ubile i nekoi nasi dejci.
5. Vo Bugarija, posebno vo Sofija postola druzina koja gi zemala pod zakrila makedoncite koi sakale vo Tursko da ucat za vojnici i da se vratat pa da se borat vo Mk ili nekoi begale od Turcite vo pogolemite gradovi. Del od tie lugje se odnarodeni po navleguvanjeto na Bug. policiska propaganda niz lugjeto.
6. Jas licno poznavam Ohrigjani koi imaat rodnini vo Bg. Tie koi zaminale tamu bile namesnici ili desna raka na Bg. vlast, pa koga dosle Srbite samoinicijativno izbegale za Sofija.Ili takvi koi po II Svetska Vojna po konfiskacija na imotite izbegale od strav. Vazno e da se napomene slednovo: znacit, po I Sv. Vpjna privrzanicite-poltroni na Bugarite, bile goneti od Srbite vo SHS, od takov strav begale poltronite i dousnicite po II Sv. Vojna.
Treba da se stramat site onie koi se potomci na takvite lugje koi prebegale vo Bg, a bile kodosi, pottrckovci ili za mok pravele se protiv svoite komsii za vlast. =SRAM
7. Vo pisuvanjeto za dejstvoto na cetite vo Tursko, a prazuvani i objaveni vo vesnik vo Sofija pisit: Deka site tie postari komiti se borele samo za edno -Makedonija. Tuka vesnikot povikuva da se vlijae za da se promeni toa ili da se nametne nova cel koja kje bide vo interes na BG.
P.S. -Kazete koj se tie Ohrigani, pa jas kje vi kazam koi se nivnite "tapii" vo Ohrid !
Nekoi mozda kje se navredat vo ova sto go pisam, mozda ima i isklucoci, bi sakal da gi cujam- pred se mislam na licnite sudbini na nekoi ljugje , a ne politickata karta.
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| radko |
Kako star ohridcanec,kak ke komentirash Bugarskite Akcionni Komiteti sazdadeni oste predi navlizaneto na Bugarskata voiska v Macedonia prez 1941.V tia komiteti ycastvyvat yciteli,carkovni deici i mnogy iziaveni grajdani ot razlicni makedonski gradove. |
| ZooGraf |
Sepak, Ilija Kocare ima i dobri raboti praveno.
Vo 1944, koga gradote bese pod Germanska okupacija, dva viskokoaktivni borci se krieja vo kukjata na baba mi - Marija Grueva. Edniot e tatkoto na Vlado Maleski - tvorecot na makedonskata himna, drugiot e Vasil Kalajdji, koj pokasno stanuva minister, ama zaglavuva vo 1948. Elem, Germanskiot stab bil vo Gimnazijata, a onie sto go znaat dobro Ohrid, znaat deka kukjata na Gruevi e sproti Gimnazijata. Nekoj i rekol na baba mi deka Germancite nasetuvaat nesto somnitelno i deka ke ima racija vo nejzinata kukja. Preplasena taa otisla kaj Ilija Kocare, cija sopruga bila rodnina so Kalajdji. Ilija Kocare gi zema i prekju nokj gi prebacuva do Bitola kade tie naogjaat vrska so partizanite.
E sega, posle vojnata, kako sto f9 rece imalo sud kaj staroto kino. Sudot bil "naroden" t.j. imalo dosta publika. Posle citanjeto na optuznicata, sudijata rekol, ima li nekoj nesto da kaze za Ilija, baba mi krenala raka. Sudijata ja prasal dali ima nesto da kaze ZA ili PROTIV covekot. Baba mi rekla za, i sudijata i rekol "togas sedi".
Baba mi prethodno otisla kaj Vlado Maleski da go zamoli da pomogne, no ovoj ne sakal da se kompromitira.
Ne znam dali covekot bil bugaroman ili ne, no ne bil crniot gjavol. |
| radko |
Kakvo vi e mnenieto na vas starite ohridcani za ovaa kniga:
Makedonia 1941-Vazkresenieto
http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/bugarash/mac1941/ohrid.htm
V edna neina glava se opisyva posrestaneto na Bugarskite voiski v Ohrid ili kakto go naricame Bugarskiot Erusalim..Sakam da vi zapitam kakvo ste cyvali ot vashite basti i diadovci za tezi sabitia? |
| suschestvo |
quote:
Originally posted by radko
Kakvo vi e mnenieto na vas starite ohridcani za ovaa kniga:
Makedonia 1941-Vazkresenieto
http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/bugarash/mac1941/ohrid.htm
V edna neina glava se opisyva posrestaneto na Bugarskite voiski v Ohrid ili kakto go naricame Bugarskiot Erusalim..Sakam da vi zapitam kakvo ste cyvali ot vashite basti i diadovci za tezi sabitia?
Ova sto go pisuva ne dava nisto posebno, osven ako ne e preuvelicenop, duri e i smasno.
Dedomi kazuvase deka po doaganjeto na Italjanite deka se ocekuva da dojdat dobrite, nasi luge. Koga stignale Bugarskite vojski vo gradot pocnale da zboruvaat deka ne se toa tie borci, deka se izmameni. Imeno vo gradot emisarite Bug. kazuvaat za vojnici, no toa samo koristele periodot koga se oformuva nacionalno osloboditelnite ceti i studentskata kolonija, pa napravile zabuna. A za toa deka vikale po niv, pa vi pisav koj go prael toa. Toa bile onie vasii emisari pottrckovci i zelni lugje za mok , koi duri nudele i zemja na Carot vas kako vernost za da gi zacuvaat mestopolzbata i imotot, a prethodno ovie poslednive bile so Srpskata vlast.
Ete taka bilo toa, i ne bilo kako vie sakate. Primer na rodnini moi Bug. vojnici im zele obleka od domot i zivotni. I sega ti mi kazuvas za nekoj si precek, drugo Dedo mi bil zatvoren zaradi sto peele so drugarite makedonski patriotski pesni, pa bil odnesen vzatvor vo Plovdiv, od kade makedoncite od Sofija uspeale da gi izvadat i tajno preku Sofija i niz planini prebegale za Ohrid.
Site ribari i trgovci od Ohrid tajno nosele oruzje na partizanite, zar toa bi go pravele ako ste bile dobredojdeni?
Kako toa vo seto vase pisuvanje i izvadoci nikade nema nekoja negativna rabota ili los precek? Toa e taka zatoa sto e pisano pristrasno samo od ednata strana.
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| f9 |
Zoograf
Periodot koj ti go potencirash e otkoga
Bugarija i objavi vojna na Germanija.Vo toa vreme
doagja do presvrt na odnosite megu Germanskata okupaciona
vojska i Bugarskata vojska.Od sorabotnici postanale neprijateli
Vo toj period e poznat sluchajot so 25 "Bugarski" vojnici koj
se kriele vo Ohrid,pri shto germanskata voena uprava mu
zapretila na gradskata uprava deka ke go zapali gradot.
Vo vrska so ovoj nastan imashe snimeno i film.Inaku chovekot
bil golem neprijatel na Nob i Pom,i spored ona shto e opshto
poznato i jas bi i rekol na babati da sedni.Pa Ilija ima isprateno po zatvori nekade okolu stotina luge koj bile vistinski aktivisti.
Bukvalno zaradi tie provali ima kasnenje vo Makedonija na NOB i samoto formiranje na PO.Inaku za tie nastani i denes se ushte ima zhivi svedoci i uchesnici od gradot Ohrid(Ne, od Debarca) kako na primer Pavlina Boshale Pejoska majka na kompozitorot Ilija Pejoski. |
| ZooGraf |
quote:
Originally posted by f9
Zoograf
Vo vrska so ovoj nastan imashe snimeno i film.
Navistina? Za kakov film stanuva zbor, dokumentarec?
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| Duhot na Vovata |
Ne, filmot e Bugarski fiction baziran na fakticki nastan. Vojnicite ne se "Bugarski" vo navodnici toku Bugarski od Bugarija proper. Od slikite lici deka ako ovie sto sre?avalu Bugarskata vojska so cveke, bili predavnici, pa togaz izpaga deka vo MK imate golem problem so brojot na predavnicite - celi tolpi se vidat na slikite.
Ne mesajte partizanska borba so nacionalno osvoboduvane. Istata vojna megu partizani komunisti i Bugarskata vojska se vodi i vo Bugarija mnogu pred Bugarija da vleze vo Makedonija. I nasite partizewni se kicea so epiteti kako "narodoosvoboditeli". Demek osvoboduvat narodot. So navleguvaneto na Bugarskata vojska vo Makeodnija istata dinamika prosto se prosiruva i na ovie prostori. Fakt e deka duri komunistite vo pocetokot se so inklinacija da se pripojat kon Bugarskata kompartija i samu direktivi odgore se sprecili ovaa zelba da se ustvari i zatoa se zdruzuvat so Yugoslavskite komunisti. Seto se dirizira od Moskva - koj s kogo. Tito vo toj period e isto Moscow puppet najmalku po pricina deka bez SSSR ni oruzie ni nisto ke dobiel. Fakt e deka celata narodoosvoboduvacka iniciativa i organizacija e dvizena od komunistite, pa vie ovde razpravajte kolku iskate deka bilo spontana "narodna izjava". Ako si veruvate, znaci kaj vas oste nito ne e promeneto - i vo BG do 10 noemvri (vo glavite na cimentiranite komunisti - i do deneska) se proklamirase ovoj mit: Narodot se borel protiv vlasta masovno, na 9.IX. "celiot narod se dignal kako eden". Pranje mozoci i mitologija propagirana so site sredstva i so strav za celi 45 godini. Izpaga ako oste ovie fantastiki srzat voda kaj vas, deka MAkedoncite imate i golem problem so istorickiot naivitet. Vo Bugarija so zikljucok na edna raka sklerotirani komunisti, nikoj ne veruva vo takvite heroiki. Fakt deka ako vo Crvenata armija ne bese okupirala Bugarija, Balkanite ke izgledaa sosema razlicno deneska. Ne znam kako ama - razlicno. Toa ti e toa - kaj vas komunistickata mitolozka magla seuste drzi jako. Seto im bese "narodno" na komunistite pa duri i mizerijata vo koja ni nateraa sistematicki vo tekot na ovie decenii.
Mitologii. |
| ZooGraf |
Kako se vika filmot?
Sum ja cital Bugarskata verzija na nastanite nekade po Internet, ne se poklapa bas so verzijata sto sum ja cul od postarite Ohrigjani. Inaku, mogu interesna prikazna.
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| Korab |
quote:
Site ribari i trgovci od Ohrid tajno nosele oruzje na partizanite, zar toa bi go pravele ako ste bile dobredojdeni?
Kako toa vo seto vase pisuvanje i izvadoci nikade nema nekoja negativna rabota ili los precek? Toa e taka zatoa sto e pisano pristrasno samo od ednata strana.
Idi vo kafana vo Ohrid kade sto se sviri starogradska muzika, ke se iznenadish!:) |
| Ceki |
Sto e be ova, sega ke skokate od grad do grad da barate bugari i bugarofili? Ne uspeavte Prilep, mala Prespa, Skopje, Voden, Solun, sega i Ohrid go najdovte?
Za vasa mala informacija, po poteklo sum od Ohrid, a mojte predci se deklarirale kako Makedonci. Ako barate bugari, barajte gi vo bugarija, a bugarki ima i vo Amsterdam i vo drugi gradovi na zapad[;)] |
| Duhot na Vovata |
Filmot se vika "Spasenieto". So Kosta Conev.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368290/ |
| radko |
Suschestvo says:
Site ribari i trgovci od Ohrid tajno nosele oruzje na partizanite, zar toa bi go pravele ako ste bile dobredojdeni?
Ste ti otgovoram sas citat ot statia na nakedonskiat vesnik
" Makedonsko Delo " broi 352 ot 28.07.2000 :
. Македонија Втората светска војна ја дочека поделена. Поголемиот дел од територијата влезе во рамките на фашизираното бугарско царство. Некаков отпор кај народот немаше. Дотогашното српско и грчко национално угнетување, преселување и менување на имињата, беше заменето со режим, којшто барем во национални/етнички рамки беше прифатлив за мнозинството од населението. Првите години од војната, подоцна титулираната Народно ослободителна борба, немаше многу приврзаници, затоа што народот промената на властаја прифати како ослободување. Дури во 1943 година, партизанското движењс се засилува, за во 1944 кога веќе војната привршуваше, да кулминира"
Po iasno ot tova ne moje da se kaje.
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| f9 |
Pechateno e od Srbinov..ski.
Tuku za filmot,ajde mafnete gi ovie...stalno neshto da kazhat spored nivna prizma.
Nastanot beshe filmuvan od Hrvatskata Televizija vo krajot na sedumdesetite godini.Togash techeshe edna serija za nastani pred i za vreme na vtorata svetska vojna vo Dalmacija Split.Poveke nastani od cela togashna Jugoslavija bea zemeni kako lajt motivi.Edna epizoda beshe posvetena na ovoj nastan.Site nastani vo tie epizodi bea vistiniti,no samo im bea smenati mestata i nacionalnostite. |
| Duhot na Vovata |
"Дури во 1943 година, партизанското движењс се засилува, за во 1944 кога веќе војната привршуваше, да кулминира"
Ima eden laf za ciganite parizani vo Bugarija koj jasno pokazuva kakva bila na ona vreme gemezata na "masovnosta":
Ciganinot za 9.IX.1944: "Aj be bate, toj 9 septemvri ja razvali ciganskata borba protiv fasizmot. Mnogu rano dojde. Nie imahme golema ciganska konspiracija za vostanie. Ako ne bese dojden 9.IX. po nas plan na 10.IX sickoto cigan patrizan ke stanese. Ama na – dojde 9 porano i veke nemase smisla."
No bez majtap, mnogumina "borci" se ugadia i stanaa partizani na 8.IX.... "aktivni borci". Kaj vas ne e bilo mnogu porazlicno. Plukane na prst i proverka odkade duva vetarot... |