The Thracian Hellenistic tomb at Alexandrovo
Some 5-6 years ago a Thracian tomb from the Hellenistic period was discovered at Alexandrovo (in southern Bulgaria, nearly halfway between Plovdiv and Adrianople). The archaologist Georgi Kitov now published a booklet (http://kroraina.com/thracia/alex_kitov) of 72 pages with many pictures of the frescoes. His booklet will be hopefully translated into English, but until then here are some pictures from there:
And here are examples of 8-pointed "Macedonian" stars from Alexandrovo:
G. Kitov, btw claims that similar 8-pointed stars have been found at other Thracian sites as well - sites, predating the examples of a similar star from Hellenistic Macedonia. And that this star should be, hence, called "Thracian" and not "Macedonian".
Ако сакаш можеш да одиш на Општо да се занимаваш со општи дискусии.
Читајте убаво пред да отворате теми.
On a more general note, I don't think the subject of the 8-rayed star, the star of Vergina/Kutlesh, and its Macedonian or non-Macedonian/Thracian origin laid outside the scope of this forum. At the end, this symbol was even on your state flag at one moment and now Greece claims it as her own. Here is the excerpt from Kitov re the star in Alexandrovo (p. 33-34):
".. In the upper and external fields-arms of the cross (in the throne) there are red semi-ellipses, which contain 7-leafed palmettes of the "Thracian" type ... The interior is occupied by the so called "Macedonian" star with 8 black rays on pale-yellow background (fig. 41). Other similar stars are used in the decoration of the ornamental edges (fig. 42). In Thracia they are also known from the bottom of a silver scyphos from Strelcha (fig. 43), from the decoration of the Ostrusha mound near Shipka in the Valley of the Thracian kings and elsewhere. Some of them predate those [8-rayed stars] from Macedonia, which puts into doubt the validity of identification "Macedonian". Maybe it is time the term to be replaced with another - "Thracian star".
Kitov has also shown a photo of the 8 (16)-rayed star from Strelcha, which I included in the previous post. For fullness, it would be nice to have the examples of similar stars from the Ostrusha mound as well but, unfortunately, I cannot find them on internet. But it must be noted that the Ostrusha mound probably dates from the V c. BC, i.e. maybe before the time of Alex III or Philipp II, and there are some similarities between the sarcophagus-like chamber in its centre with the contemporary Persian tombs (the tomb of Syrus at Pasargade, http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2006-09%2CGGLG%3Aen&q=cyrus+tomb):
Ostrusha also contains the exquisite mural of the so called "Thracian Mona Lisa". Just to put the occurences of the 8-rayed stars into their proper context.
About Macedonians and Thracians being one nation (in ethnic term if I got it right) he is not totally wrong
From my knowledge they spoke very similar language (or same) and its possible that also genetically were same people-but this is still unconfirmed. Macedonian army had 3 main auxilarry troops. Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians...However since in hellenistical period (which should in reality be called macedonian period) we know so little about Macedonians and Thracians (and their role) and so much about our "greek friends" I find it absolute important to share archeological discoveries about non-greek balkan nations-Macedonians, Thracians and Illyrians and their contribution to the world civilisation...
Titan
There were found several bronze coins with a 8-rayed star, from the coinage of Seuthes III, the Odryssian dynast whose resting place was "Goljamata kosmatka".
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| Originally posted by kroraina Maybe it is time the term to be replaced with another - "Thracian star". |
Typical Bulgar way of approach.... there was one Topic here, other guy posted similar picture, with similar statement... It appeared that the Star was from earlier Date than the Macedonian....
what so ever.
The Macedonian Star was the Symbol of the Macedonian Royal House, so it makes it Macedonian, but by no means Unique...
Thracians as Macedonians were most probably worshipers of the Phoencian God "Sol" of the Sun, and everyone had some variations of the Star...... Some say, Solun is acctualy one way to see the name, City of the Sun got Sol....
but I wont go in deeper discussion about it.....
new Russians researchers say that the Self Designation of one Thracian tribe was Makedonci, and of other Brigi, and of third Migdoni.... all were of the same Stock, but different pollitical and tribal organization, but similar language
thats why the Bulgarian Scientists now try to make all that was Ancient Macedonian to appear as Unique Thracian, since mayority of the Thracian call them today Bulgarians
| quote: |
| Originally posted by naomvraca E takova tapo par4e kato mnk ne sam vijdal! Egati idiota:) |
the opinion is mutual, so spare the web site space if you dont have to say something better than that
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| Originally posted by dejan Na kraj Bugarsko ke bide. |
veke e Bugarsko, pa neli u deneshna bugarija go najdeja
To Titan: 2-3 other peculiar, funny artefacts have been recently discovered in Thracian tombs. I will post them tomorrow.
To mnik: there was no need, really, to involve modern ethnic realities (as well as perceptions about past ethnic realities) when discussing the question about the origin of these stars. Thank you very much.
Titan
"Zareva mogila" mound:
Burial of a noble Thracian warrior
Amongst his possessions was this silver cup, in the form of a semi-sphere, with penta- and hexagons on its surface. Very much like the modern football.
"Goljamata kosmatka" mound:
Amongst the many artefacts there, the archaeologists found this silver vessel in the form of a shell:
And here is how it looks now, after restoration:
dnahla already sent a link to one informative site, ultimate-bulgaria.com, with many photos of Thracian artefacts. You can also visit my site, www.thracia.org
(go to the 'Culture' section), where I have summarised and collected newspaper reports&photos from the Thracian tombs discovered in the last 4-5 years. Check out the finds from the "Sveticata" mound, which probably belonged to an Odryssian nobleman who participated in the campaign of the king Sitalkes against Macedonia in 432-429 BC. I haven't had the time to translate all materials, so there are some 'hidden' directories which contain many more pictures and newspaper articles: - http://kroraina.com/thracia/dabene/ - golden decorations, more than 5,000 years old. From the same area between Srednogorie and Stara Planina as the later Odryssian finds.
- http://kroraina.com/thracia/kozi_gramadi/ - an Odryssian palace-fortress close to the Starosel temple
- http://kroraina.com/thracia/tatul/
and
http://kroraina.com/thracia/perperek/ - rock temples from the Bronze Age till the Roman times
- http://kroraina.com/thracia/zlatinica/ - another burial of an Odryssian para-dynast, with extremely well preserved Thracian sword, a golden wreath, a ring, silver vessels, etc.
Then there are other Thracian treasures which have been discovered decades ago and which must be easily located on google: the Panagjurishte treasure, the Vylchitrynsko treasure, the Rogozensko one, from Letnica, etc. And tombs like the Kazanlyshka tomb (discovered, btw, by my grandfather Georgi Delchev, when he, as an officer during the WWII, was setting up an anti-aircraft position with his unit against the American bombers).
Thank you for your links.
It's true that solar symbols are widely present almost everywhere in the world, Thrace not being an exception.
In Macedonia, IFRAO discovered more than 10 years ago, stone carving of a Macedonian Sun, about 3000 years old , near Kratovo. The Sun is carved with primitive tools, has eight rays, and is in a square frame. Star of Vergina as such, was neither novel nor unique symbol.
The Sun symbol was royal symbol for Macedonians but its evident its much older and was important also for Thracians. There is a thinking that its representation of the sun god Belios or Helios...
Thracian gold is very similar as Macedonian in the tomb from Kutlesh (Vergina) but really fine made, excellent workmanship and art!
Greetings,
Titan
Another commentary is triggered by Hoddinott’s conclusion, which identifies the earliest sure manifestation of the Thracians in the Bronze Age Carpatian culture of Otomani-Wietenberg (in Transylvania, Hungary, Eastern Slovakia). According to the most recent research, this culture represents a continuation of the Baden and Vu#269;edol cultures, and through the latter, is connected to the steppe cultures (see above and cp. for example DP s.v. Vu#269;edol). In the light of the preceding remarks, then, on one hand we could conclude that also Thracians underwent the same Turkic influences as most other Southern Slavic languages; on the other – as both Baden and Vu#269;edol in the
framework of the PCT can be read as Slavophone cultures, we could advance the hypothesis that the Thacianas were a Slavic group, which would have been subject to stronger Turkic influences than the other Slavic languages, and eventually extinguished. A final remark: Herodotus, as is known, describes the Thracians as the most
numerous people after the Indians. Mallory comments that it is a “sad irony” they “have left no modern descendant of their language” (Mallory 1989, 72). But is it really so? First of all, if it is hard to admit that a numerous people might completely extinguish, it
is even less likely that this pre-existing people would have left no traces in the archaeological record. And since, as we have seen, the demographic explosion of the Slavs must be placed in Neolithic, we could then advance the hypothesis that Thracians was the name that Herodotus gave to the Slavs, owing to the fact the Thracians were
one of the most powerful and representative elites of Slavic speaking Eastern Europe, seen with Herodotus’ inevitably colonialist eyes. In a first approximation, then, the Thracians would appear to be a Southern Slavic geo-variational group, out of which came a Bronze age elite, first dominating then extinguished. This hypothesis could be further developed and refined in the light of the results of research on the Thracian language which, with the caution due to the scarcity of materials, can be so summarized: (1) Thracian is an IE satem language, like Baltic and Slavic; (2) as discovered by Truba#269;ev (see above), Thracian place names show a surprising similarity with the Baltic ones; (3) in some cases, however, Thracian affinities seem stronger with Slavic: the Thr. place-name suffix -dizos e -diza, for example, to which the meaning of ‘fortress’ has been attributed on the basis of the comparison with Gr. te#297;khos ‘wall’ (IEW 244), has a much closer counterpart in the metathetic forms of OSl. zi#382;do#227;, zydati ‘to build’ zyd#365;, zid#365; ‘wall’, than in the Baltic ones (also methatetic), meaning ‘to form’. And the vocalism of the Thr. river name Stry¤m#333;n and place name Stry¤m#275; seems closer to Pol. strumie#324; ‘brook’ and OSlav. struja ‘stream’ than to Latv str#224;ume ‘stream’ (IEW 1003). The most plausible hypothesis would be then that Thracian was a conservative type of Slavic, still preserving Baltic features and spoken by a peripheral group of Southern Slavs, somehow parallel to the Northern peripheral Balts (following the geolinguistic well-known rule, according to which the center innovates, and the periphery preserves).
Na luge kako mnik samo dzvezdi im se prividuvat i sekogas ke se izs.rat so nekoja glupost za predmet od koj nemat voopsto pojma.
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| Originally posted by Duhot na Vovata Tuka da se namesam. Ornamentot na dnoto ne e niakakva dzvezda, toku kombinacija od seria raztitelni motivi, narekani "palmeti" koi se podredeni vo krg i vaka obrazuvat drug rastitelen motiv (ako i toa vo slucajov da e uslovno i da se predopredeluva od trkalestata forma na casata) i toj motiv se kazuva "rozeta". Palmetite se obicno koristeni na horizontalni frizovi (ponkogas vo vertikalna podredba) a rozetata e obisno vo agolot na kompozicijata. Vo slucajov, pa povtaram, formata na sudot preopredeluva eden frizov motiv (palmetata) da se podredi vo krg odkade se dobiva i vpecatokot za dzvezda. No da se svaka ornamentot kako dzvezda pokazuva totalno nepoznavane na materijata, na teoriite na simetrijata i ornamentalistikata i istorija na umetnostite kako celo. Na luge kako mnik samo dzvezdi im se prividuvat i sekogas ke se izs.rat so nekoja glupost za predmet od koj nemat voopsto pojma. |
Why are you so mad?? We try do discover interesting things about Thracian culture and art. We (as Macedonians) will not imply what could or should be on Thracian juwelerry...I live it to Bulgarian archelogists...
If you want to quarrel you have planty of oportunities on other topics...
Titan
Now do you have a comment on my interpretation of the decorative treatment of the vessel in question? Or you insist on dicussing my attitudes?
BTW, Thracian ornamental simbolism and its relationship with these of Ancient Greek has been a pet research for me and although not necesserily an acheologist and by far not an expert on the issue I consider myself to be well-versed on the subject.
So?
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Na luge kako mnik samo dzvezdi im se prividuvat i sekogas ke se izs.rat so nekoja glupost za predmet od koj nemat voopsto pojma. |
a na lugje kako tebe, samo Bugari im se prividuvaat, iako nemat poima za nishto; AND OF COURSE WE HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION OF YOUR PROFESIONALISM IN EVERYTHING, AND ABOUT YOUR GENIOUS, PITTY IT STILL REMAINS UNDESCOVERED... no toa e drug topic neli Vova
Eve vi nekoj Grchki stvari kaj so go ima 8th rayed sun...
Greek Vases and Amphora
Similar symbols have been found on Attic vases of the 5th century BC.
Attic vases and amphora by the Achilles Painter (c. 470 - 425 BC), the Penthesileia Painter (c. 470-460 BC) and other Attic red figure
painters:
SO VOVA, DO YOU FEEL SUPERIOR, OR I MADE YOU LAUGH AGAIN
BUT YOU KNOW, WHO CARES
AND HERE IS MACEDONIAN CHURCH, PREVILEPTA BUILT 1295, BY SOLUNIAN AUTHORS, MIHAIL ASTRAPA AND EUTYCHIUS....
TWO STARS FOR TWO MACEDONIANS, ONLY THE MACEDONIANS HAD AN ETHNIC INDETIFICATIONS WITH THAT STAR, THUS USED IT LIKE THAT... FOR OTHERS IT WAS THE PHOENCIAN CULT OF THE GOD OF THE SUN "SOL"....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendis
WE STILL SAY "BENDISA" FOR LIKING SOMEBODY....
here are more infos on their language.... Thracians as predominant population on the Balkans left deep impact on every Nation there.... combine the finds form the site, and the finds of the Phyrigians from the Gordian Knot Unbound, and you can get the clear picture of the Balkan languages, beside the Greek new comers
http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/index.html
From the site above:
in earlier times – probably in the III-th millennium BC, and before the realisation of the aforementioned sound shifts, – the Thracian language formed a close group with the Baltic (resp. Balto-Slavic), the Dacian and the "Pelasgian" languages. More distant were its relations with the other Indo-European languages, and especially with Greek, the Italic and Celtic languages, which exhibit only isolated phonetic similarities with Thracian; the Tokharian and the Hittite were also distant.
of course from the same web page, the culture:
http://www.kroraina.com/thracia/culture.html
by the way, the web site is bulgar one
As far as the star symbol goes, in different variants it is present throughout the globe and shows in different times sometines as a symbol adopted through cultural influences and other times is of local, independent origin. This is easily explained for this symbol is for the most part a representation of the sun, which was worshiped under one form or another, and at one time or another throughout the world with no exception.
As for the Vergina style "star" NO ONE can seriously claim it's origin with any reliable degree of certaintly, and it is quite evident from all the artefacts shown elsewhere in this topic. So if by posting photos of painted pottery of undoubtedly Ancient Greek origin bearing, you dear mnik, just kill the bird or better of, just shot yourself in the foot. For from the mere dating of the pottery you post it is clear that Greeks were painting the star long before any detectable Macedonian culture had emerged. Logical, huh?
The appearance of the Vergina styled star throughout the Balkan peninsula and persistedly anywhere where Greek colonization took hold (much earlier than the Greek classical period and much earlier than any Macedonian expansion), actually SUGGESTS that the symbol most likely has a Greek origin and subsequently was adopted by periferal tribes as Thracians and Macedonians. after all, it is of no doubt that the Macedonian aristocracy was under a heavy Greek influence - language, arts and culture. So were the Romans, who at first coppied and later elaborated on the Greek achievements, arts - architecture - pantheon.
You don't make me laugh. Human mysery evokes feeling of sorrow in any straight thinking individual.
Have a nice day.
Its not only you on this forum who is an artist and the claim for the star is from your archeologist so go complain to him.
Thanks for telling us that our star (and Thracian too) is actually Greek!!! Of course how could poor lads like Macedonians and Thracians do anything without superor ancient Greeks. Also Thracian gold is for sure not Thracian but made by a Greek master!!!
Seems you could not stand it Macedonians and Bulgarians to discuss in a civilised manner so you had to spoil it! Are you happy now?
I strongly suggest you to go to other topics to discuss politics!
Titan
Then I go further to explain to mnik that if we judge from the evidence he posted here (the series of Greek vases) PLUS the DATING of these vases, which mnik kindly substituted), one COULD logically conclude that the star is of Greek origin. Why? Do the math yourself. Where is the artefact from Macedonia (or Thracia) which preceedes these Greek vases? Certainly when the red-figured potery painting was performed in Greece, Macedonian high culture has not evolved yet. Or if it has, than there's no archeological evidence to support it. Or if I am mistaken, be so kind to show it to me - where it was found, who identified and dated it, and so on and so forth... Science is a mater of fact and not of emotions.
So far so my statement: "I am professional artist and that's that. Never claimed anything different." goes: It is a responce to mnik's irony implying some "genius" and "prpfessionalism in everything" (if you care to read his hard to miss vomit in bold letters), thing I have never claimed or implied for the simple reason that I don't think they are true. At no instance am I stating that I am the ONLY artist on this forum or elsewhere for that matter.
I am not complaining to anyone about anything, to be reffered to "any archeologist".
"Seems you could not stand it Macedonians and Bulgarians to discuss in a civilised manner so you had to spoil it! Are you happy now?"
You've got to be kidding me. No seriously, do you really know my views, vision and desire on BG - MK relationship? A discussion doesn't make me happy or unhappy. Civilized or not, nonsense should be caught and called on. For no other reason but for the meaningness of the discussion.
Inako lici na manierna razmena na ljubeznosti megu stari momi sledobed na belo slatko :).
Aj davaj sega kazi nesto za dzvezdata na Makedonski ta sekoj da te razbere :). Ne mi parvili analiza na manirite, ni pa mi tolkuvaj namerite, toku se fokusiaj na sustinata na kazanoto.
Ako sakas da znas za principite na ornamentalistikata, prasaj. Kolku znam ke ti kazam, kade ne znam pa ke ti kazam.
WYSIWYG - toa e Vovata - zapomni go.
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| Originally posted by Duhot na Vovata Then I go further to explain to mnik that if we judge from the evidence he posted here (the series of Greek vases) PLUS the DATING of these vases, which mnik kindly substituted), one COULD logically conclude that the star is of Greek origin. Why? Do the math yourself. Where is the artefact from Macedonia (or Thracia) which preceedes these Greek vases? Certainly when the red-figured potery painting was performed in Greece, Macedonian high culture has not evolved yet. Or if it has, than there's no archeological evidence to support it. Or if I am mistaken, be so kind to show it to me - where it was found, who identified and dated it, and so on and so forth... Science is a mater of fact and not of emotions. |
http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=1901&rub=40
The solar eight-ray symbol engraved in stone,discovered three years ago in the place Orlof Kamen near the village of Trnovec, Kratovo, by members of a mixed Macedonian - Italian crew, after it was properly returned to us in the Italian embassy in Skopje, will be placed in the Museum of Kratovo.
............
............
............
the five millenniums old engraved stone has a solar meaning with a long tradition:here, it can be seen since the bronze period until the time of christianisation and even later. It can be seen as a decoration in our churches, as well as the Italian churches. In its original shape (an eight - ray star with particles between the rays), this symbol has already been discovered in the Belasica mountain and is estimated to be 10 000 years old (the current Macedonian flag has an application of the very same engraved stone with a millennium long tradition).
So do your math, 8th rayed Star engraved on Stone, found in Macedonia, and 5 milleniums old the other 10 000 years old.....
Guess it must be Greek
And by the way, the data and the Pictures of the Greek Vasles are not mine, but from an Greek who posted it to me on other Forum......
1. Is there ANY evidence, that 10 000 years ago the people who allegedly varved the star called themselves Macedonians? (What links today's Arabs with the Pharaoh Ramses III - the time table is comparable).
2. Would you provide a link to your source? I strongly hope that an online evidence other than .mk will support the validity of this so important finding.
By the way, the dates of the greek vases are correct and easyly werifiable from many sources. I hope same will apply to your 10 000 old finding with more evidence of who dated it by what method etc. - details essential for any scientific study and publication. Ili i ti kako Donski postirash snippets od popularni spisanija...
Cekam.
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| Originally posted by Duhot na Vovata Cekam. |
Bre... Od Golemoto Dobroutro.... What do I get if I waste my time proving you something??? Do I have to waste my time looking for the Italian Web Page of the Italian Members of the team, which is most probably written in Italian, just to prove you something... I dont think so...
You got the Info, do what you want to do, Im done talking to you...
If I find something on the Topic, I will post it here, if not, Koj Cheka Ke Docheka
A inako vidi jas sto imam za tebe:
http://www.crystalinks.com/aztecalendar.html (broj krakata na actekskoto sonce - videno e od actekite na stitot na Aleksandar :))
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sg/sg1475.html
http://www.africawithin.com/massey/gml1_sayce.htm
http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods1.html
http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/relg/non-christiancomparative/TheReligionofBabyloniaandAssyria/chap2.html
Ili ako si davas trud da procitas ovie statii, ke razberes sto sakav da kazam:
Simvolot na sonceto (najcesto so osum kraka - pricinite za 8 se od simetricno graficen karakter no ne e toa temata, ako sakas ke zborime za numerical ballance on circilar ornaments odelno) e pronajden niz celiot svet i najverojatno se pojavil na mnogu mesta totalno nezavisno, a na drugi e bil privnesen preku kulturna i trgovska razmena kako sekoja druga kulturna ili religiozna osobina. Ne se odeli site i asirobabilonci, i azteki, i japanci i indijci na prosetok do Balkanite za da gledat zvezdata izsekana vo kamen pred 10 000 godini. KOJA NE E DATIRANA NA 10 000 godini TOKU na 5000 i to soglasno Makedonska publikaija, ama na, na mnik se sto e najdeno vo makedonija mu se vidi dvojno i seto e makedonsko. Duri i Rimska moneta da se pronajde kaj Vardarot i taa makedonska ke bide i dva pati postara od datumut na koj bula zagubena.
So zdrave i prijatna vakancija.
Titan
ps. since you came the topic got killed, GOOD WORK
My initial remarks were precisely on the Thracian gold and on one of the ornaments of one of the golden vessels. (The rosette and palmete elaboration, remember). Instead of taking on and continue on this particular issue (which IS strictly within the topic and to which I encouraged you sveral time to have your input) you keep focusing on the "side bar" remarks in my posts.
Let's go back now and revive the topic - what would you say is the ornament on the bottom of the THRACIAN GOLDEN VESSEL posted elsewhere in this topic the Vergina symbol or you agree with my interpretation that is in fact a circular arrangement of palmettes? A simple question for a titan from a simple provocateur :).
Oh, and how my remarks on the ornament in question were "of topic"? My simplicita is uncapable of figure this one out... so help me with an explanation please!
We had misunderstanding because you critisized Mnik for claiming something!!! I asked you to put a quote of Mniks post and you didn't do it till now!!! Did you invented it or Vova made a mistake
acting too fast???Please put a quote by Mnik about which ornament he claims its a star and you think its rozeta, ok?
Now if you ask about this ornament: Posted - May 18 2006 : 05:10:17 by kroraina, its a rozeta of course, but who said its not??? Its very clear case
Greetings,
Titan
Eve za sto prasas:
"quote:
Originally posted by kroraina
Maybe it is time the term to be replaced with another - "Thracian star".
Typical Bulgar way of approach.... there was one Topic here, other guy posted similar picture, with similar statement... It appeared that the Star was from earlier Date than the Macedonian....
what so ever.
The Macedonian Star was the Symbol of the Macedonian Royal House, so it makes it Macedonian, but by no means Unique...
Thracians as Macedonians were most probably worshipers of the Phoencian God "Sol" of the Sun, and everyone had some variations of the Star...... Some say, Solun is acctualy one way to see the name, City of the Sun got Sol....
but I wont go in deeper discussion about it.....
new Russians researchers say that the Self Designation of one Thracian tribe was Makedonci, and of other Brigi, and of third Migdoni.... all were of the same Stock, but different pollitical and tribal organization, but similar language
thats why the Bulgarian Scientists now try to make all that was Ancient Macedonian to appear as Unique Thracian, since mayority of the Thracian call them today Bulgarians".
Ovde (ako i da ne e mnogu jasno) jas toa go interpetiram kako spor za nekakva dzvezda, Dali e Trakijska ili Makedonska. Ili ti drugo citas? Pa od slikite seto sto jaz vidov e taa "roseta" (navodnicite se posto ne e bas klasicka roseta toku palmeti vo krg - ima razlika).
Dokolku "Vovata reacted too fast" prebroi kolku postovi po postot na mnik sum izcekal da vidam sto ke kezat drugite...
Ne znam kolku sum clever. Edni mi kazat "ne si dostatocno inteligenten" drugi me pocituvat. Razni oci razlicno gledat. No toa deka sum bil vo korner bese definitely a cheap shot.
Pozdrav!
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| Originally posted by Titan Vova, you are clever guy when pushed to a corner We had misunderstanding because you critisized Mnik for claiming something!!! I asked you to put a quote of Mniks post and you didn't do it till now!!! Did you invented it or Vova made a mistake acting too fast???Please put a quote by Mnik about which ornament he claims its a star and you think its rozeta, ok? Now if you ask about this ornament: Posted - May 18 2006 : 05:10:17 by kroraina, its a rozeta of course, but who said its not??? Its very clear case Greetings, Titan |
I just gave an coment on the Bulgarian Historian statement that the 8th rayed Star should be rebaptized.... I never said anything about that Roseta in the freaking Cup....
and I never gave any statment about 10 000 years old findings of the 8th rayed star, I just Quoted from the Link which I posted with... If someone wants to find out if the Findings are properly dated, should go to Macedonia and do some research, so we will see...
So what Vova had in mind, is his problem.... I dont mind...
Good observation Titan
OK, ne mi bese sosema jasnoi mislev deka pravilNo sum sfatil postot ti. Izpaga NE SUM GO SFATIL dobro.
"and I never gave any statment about 10 000 years old findings of the 8th rayed star, I just Quoted from the Link which I posted with... If someone wants to find out if the Findings are properly dated, should go to Macedonia and do some research, so we will see..."
Here it's your fault. When I post a quote, the mere quotation of some text, usually means that you agree with the content. That's how I do it. Quoting something means: "Here's what I believe and propagate and here's a quote to suppot my thesis". Why quote at all otherwise?
Now, in case there are portions of the quote that I am not in agreement with, I let the audience know about it by adding a short comment pointing out my reservations.
So, mnik, this is what's in my head.
Any objections?
Titan
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| Originally posted by kroraina "Zareva mogila" mound: Burial of a noble Thracian warrior Amongst his possessions was this silver cup, in the form of a semi-sphere, with penta- and hexagons on its surface. Very much like the modern football. |
uste DNA da se ispita, slemot e ist kako kaj makedoncite i skitite
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Originally posted by dnahla The Historical Extent of Thracian Settlement  [ |
Vo koja godina bilo rasprostraneto vo taa golemina trakiskoto carstvo?
Податоците за Одриското царство покажат дека столицата првом била каде е денешен Одрин, а потоа пренесена близо до денешен Казанлък. Постоело мегу 5 и 3 в пр. н. е. но доколку знам никогаш не било толку големо колко е покажано на мапата.
Ако некој зна повеке - да каже.
Some pics (more detailed versions, views from different angles - at the site):
Sitalkes (reigned 431 - 424 BC) was one of the great kings of the Thracian Odrysian state. He was the son of Teres, and on the sudden death of his father in 431 BC Sitalkes succeeded to the throne. Sitalkes increased his kingdom by successful wars, and soon the Odrysian state of Thrace comprised the whole territory from Abdera in the south to the mouths of the Danube in the north, and from Byzantium in the east to the sources of the Strymon in the west.
At the commencement of the Peloponnesian war he entered into alliance with the Athenians, and in 429 BC he invaded Macedon (then ruled by Perdiccas II) with a vast army that included independent Thracian tribes (such as the Dii) and Paeonian tribes (Agrianes, Laeaeans), but was obliged to retire through failure of provisions and the beginning of winter.Altogether his army amounted, or was supposed to amount, to 150,000 men – one-third of it cavalry, who were for the most part Getae and Odrysians proper. The most formidable warriors in his camp were the independent Thracian tribes of Rodope. The whole host, alike numerous, warlike, predatory, and cruel, spread terror amidst all those who were within even the remote possibilities of its march.
Later he was killed in 424 by the Thracian Triballi.
Sitalkes was succeeded to the Odrysian throne by Seuthes I.
In August 2000, a sensational discovery occurred near the village of Starosel, in central Bulgaria. Archaeologists found the enormous temple/grave of [b]what is believed to be a Thracian ruler, possibly Sitakes I, the first king of a combined Thracian empire. The site, 100 miles east of Sofia, has been dated as from the fourth or fifth century BC. The grave and its surroundings are thought by archaeologists to have been an important religious site for Thracians dating from the stone age. The two-chamber tomb is approached by stairs and a corridor. It is surrounded by a 263-yard long wall made out of some 4,000 stone blocks and was hidden under a 20-meter high mound of earth. The stone blocks of the surrounding wall/facade were largely undisturbed because they were fastened on the other side with iron clamps, which had lead poured over them. The interior consists of a rectangular entrance and a round vaulted main hall, whose ceiling is supported by 10 Doric semi-pillars, each carved with 10 vertical flutes. The inner walls are covered by ornate stone plates. The dome is decorated with a stone frieze in red, black, green and blue colours.
Odrysian kingdom
The Odrysian kingdom was union of Thracian tribes that endured between the 5th century BC and the 3rd century BC. It consisted largely of present-day Bulgaria, spreading to parts of Romania, northern Greece and Turkey.
Its former capital was Uscudama or Odrysia which is now the city of Edirne, in the European part of Turkey. King Seuthes III later moved the capital to Seuthopolis, located at the bottom of the "Koprinka" reservoir near the town of Kazanlak in Central Bulgaria.
History
The Odrysian state was the first Thracian kingdom that acquired power in the region, by the unification of many Thracian tribes under a single ruler, King Teres. Initially, the state included eastern Thrace and regions as far north as the mouths of the Danube.
Teres' son, Sitalkes proved to be a good military leader, forcing the tribes that defected the alliance to acknowledge his sovereignty. The rich state that spread from the Danube to the Aegean built roads to develop trade and built a powerful army that could reach 150,000 men. In 429 BC, they organized a campaign against the Macedonians, but they retreated after only thirty days.
Sitalkes wanted to unify all the Thracians, so he decided to fight the Triballi, but was killed in the battle that followed.
Seuthes I followed as king and during this time, the kingdom enjoyed a period of prosperity, but various Thracian tribes quit the Empire.
In the 4th century BC, it disintegrated into three smaller kingdoms, of which one, with the capital at Seuthopolis survived the longest.
List of Odrysian kings
Teres I 450 BC - 431 BC
Sitalkes 431 BC - 424 BC
Seuthes I (424 BC - 410 BC)
Medoc I (410 BC - 390 BC)
Seuthes II (405 BC - 391 BC)
Hebryzelmis (390 BC - 384 BC)
Cotys I (384 BC - 359 BC)
Kersobleptes (359 BC - 341 BC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom"