| Greek Hate Mail | |
| BorisVM | Received: from web20206.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.61] by mail.vmacedonia.com (SMTPD32-6.06) id A44210AC00A6; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 03:07:30 -0500 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Received: from [203.171.105.205] by web20206.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:21:43 PST Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:21:43 -0800 (PST) From: MAVROS KLITOS <[email protected]> Subject: Republic of the Yogurt Sucking, Pepper Crunching Skopian Counterfeitters To: Boris Soposki <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-RCPT-TO: <[email protected]> X-UIDL: 336865036 Status: U Boris, Yogurt sucking, red pepper crunching, skopian cultural counterfeitting thief. Macedonian ? No you're not ! Sopian Slav ? Yes you are ! Say no to the Slav Theft of the Greek History of Makedonia Today! Fact: The modern day Macedonian Slavs bear no relation to the Greeks of Ancient Macedonia. Fact: Ancient Macedonians were Greek, sopke Greek and believed in Greek Gods and had Greek Social customs. Fact: Citizens of Fyrom are related to the bulgarians & speak a Bulgarian dialect ! Remember, YOU ARE NOT A MACEDONIAN. THE UN DOES NOT RECOGNISE YOU. THE ORTHODOX CHURCH DOES NOT RECOGNISE YOU. YOU ARE NOT A MACEDONIAN. ALEXANDROS WAS NOT A YOGURT SUCKING, RED PEPPER CRUNCHING, BULBOUS FOREHEADED, DEEP SET SUNKEN EYED, FLATHEADED, JUT JAWED , PIP SPITTING SKOPIAN COUNTERFEITTING SLAV. Get an education, and stop stealing our history. ===== The hordes of the SYNEDRION are COMING to RECLAIM GREECE, TO RECLAIM THE BIRTHRIGHTS of EVERY GREEK. REJOICE AND STAND UP , O NOBLE HELLENES, UNSHEATHE YOUR SWORDS AND ARM YOURSELVES, THE WAR HAS BEGUN, FOR THE BARBARIANS ARE UPON US, YET AGAIN AT THE GATES OF GREECE. BUT WE WILL MAKE THEM GATES OF FIRE! For the SYNEDRION, Fount of Truth, Justice, and the Hellenic Way. Reclaiming Greece, 2002. __________________________________________________ |
| Boulgaroktonos | Macedonia is Greek.......Its simple. Now tell me this.....What exactly are you gonna do if the glorious Greek army invades?Will you stand for more than 4 days?Even if U.N. or US stops the war it will be after 24 hours....Plenty time to acquire half FYROM (and give a solution to the problem).Macedonia belongs to us....You want it ?Come and take it.Our gunpowder is very sweet ,taste it. Who will then be right? We should have splitted FYROM when Milosevits asked as to.But no,we like peace.Dont wake the Greek nationalists,don't ask for things that belong to us,stop your foolish propaganda. Macedonia is,was and will remain Greek either you want it or not. |
| Boulgaroktonos | Astibus The first pyramid was found in Argos,Greece.Check history books.You will see that the pyramid in Argos is 300 years older than any Egyptian.Now i am not saying that egyptians were not advanced but its a fact that the oldest pyramid was found in Argos.Its not as high as the egyptian pyramids but it exists |
| HanAvitohol | hehehe, dear greek friend, you can pray that we do no decide to come to Solun once again, cause we all know what have happened in the past. Are you ready?! And leave the poor "makedonians" alone, please! they can bearly deal with those sons of bitches, the shiptars, needless to say with a real army... and watch out the turks, because they can take you out anytime now...80,000 active troops is not something to disrespect, nevermind they are muslim cowards... |
| graf | boris don't watse ya time with the loser, he has a think head and can not understand ahahah |
| ozonce | more da vi go ebam mameto da vi go ebam... ako li?:) |
| Lapotica | Greko, Your obviously a sad individual who is not happy with himself, cannot handle the fact that we Macedonians are by far a better race then your sad heritage, and we cannot blame you for being hurt, angry, sad and even resentful towards us because you so wish you were with us. Thats alright, we dont hate you, we pity you and your wishfull thinking, but dont worry I'm sure you'll get through this, hang in there[:(] You know, even though a good majority of Greeks are moron's, I have never talked your kind down, but it only takes one rotten egg to spoil a dozen, and it's ppl like you that make the rest of your "Greeks" look like the loser's you so are....[}:)] Have a nice day[8D] And good luck getting over it! [;)] |
| graf | hay cock sucker grrk. Go and poo jam ya father !!! |
| dj_poo | quote:Yada, Yada, Yada Since you don't understand English very well, I will tell you in Greek. Makedonija= ohi Hellas (Hellinika) Understandos oros youos stillos confusedos[?] By the way, I am just kidding with my comments, so don't get your panties in a bunch. [:0][:0] We are all God's children. Where is the love damn it? [:(!][:(!] Kalispera..........Efharisto [:D][:D] |
| Legal-Eagle | Actually Graf, you just might have a good idea for once. I have never in the few years that i have had the pleasure of Boris's virtual acquaintance ever have known him to be rude, crude, ungentlemanly or to behave in an inappropriate and unacceptable manner .... now that is ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE [;)] How about it Boris?[:)] You are all, Hic, entitled to MY, Hic, opinion! |
| graf | adje boris send the wanker the meaning of being a MACEDONIAN Graf in Da Selo !!! |
| Lapotica | Yeah, get him, get him....[:D][:D] He's obviously a waste of space in society and I personally dont have the time or energy to deal with farkwit losers like him, in this world with too much time on their hands and nothing constructive too say!!! [^][:)] ..FOXXY.. |
| Thunder from down under | Graf mate grcite od sekogas se plasele od nas makedoncite uste koga gi imaja olimpiskite igri ne smeeja makedoncite da ucestvuvaat na igrite mozi deka znaeja bevne podobri od niv |
| StormChild | I suppose if look at the point that HanAvitohol made about how similar the Bulgarian language is to the Macedonian then we can claim that we are also Russian, Polish, and any other race that talks a similar dialect. Maybe the Bulgarians are really Russians in disguise and maybe the Macedonians are really Bulgarians in disguise.... maybe all these disguises are a way of creating a path to the Mediteranian sea so that we can enjoy the islands without being disturbed by the Governments that control this great sea.... WOW wouldn't this be a great conspiracy theory... WAKE UP HanAvitohol!!!!!!!!! Just because we speak a similar dialect doesn't mean we are the one people! Just because the "real" Macedonian people have not been seen for hundreds of years does that make us any less Macedonian? The last true Aboriginal (native of Australia also once known as Gwondonaland) died in the early 1900's. Does that now mean any aboriginal that is born cannot claim to be aboriginal? Reason I ask is that the there is NO true blood aboriginal left. They have all a "white mans" background! Are they any less aboriginal than that of their fore-fathers? In 2 thousand years time when they have not been seen on the face of this earth.... when the aboriginals of the future are born, will they be any less aborigianl? SO HanAvitohol, I put it to you.... just because a "true blood" Macedonian does not exist anywhere in this world.... are we any less macedonian than our fore-fathers???? Wake up fool... we live in a world of mixed cultures and it is getting harder to keep ones heritage with each generation! |
| mafisKumA | http://www.abest.com/~angelos/hatemail.html |
| SamovilaGoddess | Psevdonim izvini ama ti voopsto ne znaes so zborvas. Tolku kako Makedonec ne se zainteresiral da donaucis se za Makedonskata istorija? Rece samiot deka ne znaes mnogu za grckata istorija, a ni diskutiras tuka deka makedoncite bile grci. Duri i antickite Grcki istoricari pisea deka Makedoncite ne bile Grci, bile divo pleme, ne vikaa "barbarians" i jazikot ne im bese grcki, tuka jazik so zvuci na "ba-bar" <---i od toa doagja zborot BARBARIAN. Procitaj nekogas ARRIAN, PLUTARCH, QUINTUS CURTIUS RUFUS, POLYBIUS, PAUSANIUS, JOSEPHUS, HERODOTUS, PSEUDO-HERODOTUS, DIODORUS, ISOKRATES, site eden od niv imat napisano deka Makedoncite i Grcite NE SE ISTI. Vo vremeto na Aleksandar Makedonski, Grckiot jazik bese najupotrebeniot jazik, kako so e Angliski vo denesen den. Vo Egipet se zborvase grcki, vo Persia, vo Ilirija, vo Trakia, diplomatski jazik bese. Toa ne znaci deka Ilirite ili Persijanite bili grci. Citaj malku sega: Let me enlighten you: TITLE: ANTICHKIOT GRCHKI ISTORICHAR PLUTARCH PISHUVA DEKA ANTICHKITE MAKEDONCI ZBORUVALE NA POSEBEN MAKEDONSKI JAZIK Plutarch zhiveel vo 1 vek AD. Okolu 75 godina toj napishal pogolem broj istoriski dela (glavno biografii na poznati lichnosti od antikata). Vo svoite istoriski dela Plutarch chesto gi spomenuval i antichkite Makedonci, pri shto, na povekje mesta, direktno ili indirektno, pishuval deka tie ne bile nikakvi Grci, tuku zaseben narod. Plutarch napishal i Biografija za Alexander the Great. Vo 53-ta glava od ovaa biografija, toj ja opishal raspravijata pomegju Alexander the Great i negoviot drugar Cleitus. Vo ekot na raspravijata, vo eden mig, Aleksandar pomislil deka kje bide napadnat i pochanl na makedonski jazik da gi dovikuva svoite bodygards. Eve kako Plutarch ja opishal ovaa situacija: "Alexander ... skoknal na noze i pochnal na makedonski da gi dovikuva svoite bodygars". Poznato e deka Alexander vo svojata vojska imal pripadnici na razni narodi, no vo svoeto najblisko okruzhuvanje sekogash drzhel samo Makedonci (kako negovi sonarodnici vo koi imal najgolema doverba). Iako, Alexander go imal naucheno i tugjiot grchki jazik (preku koj komuniciral so Grcite), vo ovaa situacija gledame deka toj, koga pomislil deka zhivotot mu e vo opasnost, na svoite najbliski sorabotnici Makedonci, instinktivno im viknal na makedonski jazik. TITLE: ANTICHKIOT LATINSKI ISTORICHAR QUINTUS CURTIUS RUFUS PISHUVA DEKA ANTICHKITE MAKEDONCI KOMUNICIRALE PREKU PREVEDUVACHI SO GRCITE Quintus Curtius Rufus bil antichki latinski istorichar. Vremeto na negovoto zhiveenje ne e tochno utvrdeno, no se smeta deka zhiveel vo vremeto pomegju I vek pred Hrista, pa se do IV vek po Hrista. Toj napishal Biografija za Alexander the Great, koja denes se smeta za edno od pette osnovni dela za zhivotot na ovoj makedonski car. Biografijata za Alexander, Rufus ja napishal vrz osnova na postari izvori, koi togash nemu mu bile dostapni, a denes ne se zachuvani. Site sovremeni istorichari za antichka Makedonija se koristat so podatoci od deloto na Rufus. I Rufus jasno gi oddeluva Makedoncite od Grcite. Opishuvajkji go sudenjeto na Makedonecot Philotas (koj bil obvinet od Aleksandar deka sakal da napravi zagovor protiv nego), Rufus pishuva deka Makedoncite zboruvale na poseben makedonski jazik, koj ne bil razbirliv za Grcite. Voedno od negoviot opis se zakluchuva deka golem broj Makedonci komunicirale so Grcite preku preveduvachi. Kje navedeme citati od deloto na Q.C. Rufus. Za vreme na sudenjeto, Aleksandar mu se obrnal na Philotas so zborovite: "Sega tebe kje ti sudat Makedoncite. Te prashuvam: dali kje im se obratish na majchiniot jazik?" Philotas odgovoril odrechno, so obrazlozhenie deka, osven Makedonci, imalo prisutni i pripadnici od drugi narodi. Na toa, Aleksandar im rekol na prisutnite Makedonci: "Eve, gledate li? Do tamu li doshol Philotas, ta da se gnasi od majchiniot jazik?...No, neka zboruva kako shto saka, a vie spomnete si deka toj podednakvo se otugjil i od na****e obichai i od nashiot jazik." No, Philotas ne ostanal ramnodushen na ovie obvinuvanja, pa vo svojot odgovor, rekol: "Mene mi se prefrla shto odbivam da zboruvam na majchiniot jazik i deka sum se grozel od obichaite na Makedoncite. Znachi taka jas mu se zakanuvam na kralstvoto, shto go preziram? No, ushte porano, onoj rodniot jazik, beshe napushten vo komunikacijata so drugite narodi, pa taka i pobednicite i pobedenite trebashe da uchat eden tugj stranski jazik." Togash vo obvinuvanjata protiv Philotas se vmeshal makeodnskiot vojskovodec Bolon, koj, megju drugoto, go obvinil Philotas deka (citat): "...iako bil Makedonec, ne se sramuval, preku preveduvach, da gi islushuva lugjeto shto zboruvale na negoviot roden jazik". (Povekje detali vo: Quintus Curtius Rufus: "De Rebus Gestis Alexandri Macedonis") I ovaa sluchka e tolku jasna vo odnos na postoenjeto na zasebniot makedonski jazik, shto nikakov komentar ne e potreben. Od ovoj opis, gledame deka del od Makedoncite, poradi praktichni prichini (pogolema mozhnost za opshtenje so drugite narodi i sl.), go koristele i tugjiot grchki jazik (koj ovde e opishan kako "tugj, stranski jazik"), iako megju sebe i natamu si zboruvale na majchiniot makedonski jazik. No, Philotas (iako bil Makedonec) otishol tolku daleku shto duri ne sakal da zboruva na makedonski nitu so svoite sonarodnici Makedonci, pa onie Makedonci, koi ne go znaele grchkiot jazik, gi teral da zboruvaat so nego preku preveduvachi. Vakvoto negovo odnesuvanje go optovarilo obvinuvanjeto protitv nego od strana na Makedoncite. TITLE: ANTICHKIOT GRCHKI ISTORICHAR ARRIAN JA POTENCIRA OMRAZATA POMEGJU ANTICHKITE MAKEDONCI I GRCI I PISHUVA DEKA POMEGJU NIV POSTOELO "RASNO RIVALSTVO" Antichkiot grchki istorichar Flavius Arrian zhiveel vo II vek po Hrista. Toj ostavil znachajni dela za zhivotot na Aleksandar Makedonski, koi denes pretstavuvaat eden od osnovnite izvori za istorijata na antichka Makedonija. Sekade vo svoite dela Arrian gi potencira razlikite pomegju antichkite Makedonci i Grcite.Toj ja spomneuva i omrazata shto vladeela pomegju golem del od pripadnicite na ovie dva razlichni naroda. Taka, na primer, toj pishuva deka vo bitkata kaj Isus, protiv Makedonskata vojska na stranata na Persija se borele duri trieset iljadi Grci! Opishuvajkji ja ovaa bitka, grchkiot istorichar Arrian zapishal deka omrazata pomegju Makedoncite i Grcite bila tolku golema shto duri megju niv postoelo "old racial rivalry". Eve citat od negoviot opis na bitkata kaj Isus: "There was a violent struggle. Darius' Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonian back into the water and save the day for their left wing. Already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexanders' triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success. The fight was further embittered by the OLD RACIAL RIVALRY of Greeks and Macedonians". (Arrian: "The Campaigns of Alexander", Translated by Aubrey De Selincourt, Pengiun books, USA, 1987, p.119). Po ova svedoshtvo (preneseno od Grkot Arrian) stanuvaat smeshni tvrdenjata na deneshntaa grchka propaganda spored koi antichkite Makedonci bile "Grci". Zarem nekoj normalen chovek mozhe da veruva deka mozhe da postoi "old racial rivalry" pomegju pripadnici na "ist narod"? Od ova svedoshtvo isto taka jasno se gleda deka omrazata pomegju Grcite i Makedoncite bila stara i damneshna, pa ne sluchajno ogromen broj Grci se vkluchile vo Persiskata vojska vo vojnata protiv Makedonija, iako do pred toa Persija bila najgolem neprijatel na Grcite. Praktichno Grcite gi mrazele Makedoncite povekje i od svojot najgolem neprijatel Persija. TITLE: ANTICHKA GRCIJA NIKOGASH NE POSTOELA KAKO DRZHAVA!!! Vo golem broj knigi, enciklopedii, TV emisii i drugi formi na publikacii, vo posledno vreme chesto pati se upotrebuva terminot "Ancient Greece". No, toa e sosema pogreshno. Nikogash vo istorijata ne postoela "Anciet Greece" kako edinstvena drzhava. Poradi toa upotrebata na vakviot termin e eden od najgolemite falsifikati vo sovremenata istorija. Na teritorijata na deneshna Grcija, vo antikata postoele samo nekolku gradovi-drzhavi, koi glavno vojuvale pomegju sebe i site do edna bile potchineti od Makedonija. Istovremeno, za Makedonija se znae deka bila prvata golema teritorijalno organizirana drzhava so centralizirana politika i administracija vo Evropa! TITLE: VO MAKEDONIJA NE E OTKRIEN NITU EDEN GRCHKI NATPIS OD 5 VEK PRED HRISTA!!! Deneshnata grchka propaganda kako "dokaz" deka antichkite Makedonci bile "Grci" go naveduva faktot shto nekoi od antichko-makedonskite moneti bile napishani so "grchki" bukvi, a na ovoj jazik imalo i drugi natpisi od vremeto na antichka Makedonija. Kako prvo, duri i vo grchkata nauka, se znae deka avtentichno "grchko pismo" ne postoelo, tuku deka toa bilo eden vid adaptacija na postaroto fenikisko pismo. Shto se odnesuva do delumnata upotrebata na grchkiot pismen jazik na togashniot Makedonski kralski dvor, toa ne mozhe da bide "dokaz" deka Makedoncite bile "Grci". So togashniot pismen grchki jazik se koristele i drugi narodi (Trakijcite, Ilirite, Evreite, Rimjanite i drugi), pa sepak deneshnata grchka propaganda ne tvrdi deka site ovie narodi bile "Grci". I denes postojat razni narodi koi se sluzhat so jazik shto ne e nivni majchin. Na primer, Ircite, Shkotite i Velshanite zboruvaat i pishuvaat na angliski (a ne se Anglichani), Brazilcite zboruvaat i pishuvaat na portugalski (a ne se Portugalci) i taka natamu. Shto se odnesuva do delumnoto prifakjanje na tugjiot grchki jazik vo Makedonija, treba da se znae deka toa se sluchilo samo vo odreden period od razvitokot na makedonskata drzhava, a ne deka taka bilo "otsekogash" (kako shto tvrdi deneshnata grchka propaganda). Vo prilog na ova kje potencirame deka ne postoi NITU EDEN natpis na grchki jazik pronajden na teritorijata na cela Makedonija shto datira od 5 vek pred Hrista, t.e. od vremeto pred delumnoto prifakjanje na grchkata kultura vo Makedonija. Znaeme deka stari natpisi na grchki jazik se pronajdeni mnogu poodamna od 5 vek pred Hrista na teritorijata na deneshna Grcija (pa duri i vo Trakija), no takvi natpisi vo Makedonija - nema! Sekoj shto saka da se uveri vo ovaa vistina, neka gi prasha grchkite istorichari da mu pokazhat barem eden natpis na grchki jazik na teritorijata na Makedonija od 5 vek BC. Podocna vo Makedonija se srekjavaat i brojni natpisi na latinski, pa dali toa znachi deka Makedoncite naednash stanale "Latini"? TITLE: ANTICHKIOT GRCHKI ISTORICHAR PLUTARCH PISHUVA DEKA MAJCHINIOT JAZIK NA PTOLEMEITE I NA CLEOPATRA VII BIL - MAKEDONSKIOT JAZIK!!! Okolu 75 godina antichkiot grchki istorichar Plutarch ja napishal biografijata za rimskiot general Marc Antony, vo koja ostavil dragoceni svedoshtva za zhivotot na poslednata egipetska kralica od makedonsko poteklo - Cleopatra VII. Poznato e deka Cleopatra VII bila chista Makedonka - dalechna pravnuka na Ptolemy I (drugar od detstvoto i general vo vojskata na Alexander the Great, koj po smrtta na Alexander, ostanal da vladee so Egipet i so okolnite zemji, osnovajkji ja makedonskata dinastija na Ptolemeite). Posleden pripadnik na ovaa dinastija bila slavnata kralica Cleopatra VII. Poznato e deka nejzinite predci od makedonskata dinastija na Ptolemeite, zadrzhale mnogu karakteristiki od antichko-makeodnskata kultura, iako so tekot na vremeto, nekoi od niv, go zapostavile svojot majchin makedonski jazik No, Plutarch pishuva deka ne bil takov sluchajot so Cleopatra VII. Toj pishuva deka taa zboruvala golem broj jazici, no deka ne se otkazhala ni od svojot majchin makedonski jazik Vo vrska so ova Plutarch pishuva: "It was a pleasure merely to hear the sound of her voice, with which, like an instrument of many strings, she could pass from one language to another; so that there were few of the barbarian nations that she answered by an interpreter; to most of them she spoke herself, as to the Ethiopians, Troglodytes, Hebrews, Arabians, Syrians, Medes, Parthians, and many others, whose language she had learnt; which was all the more surprising because most of the kings, her predecessors, scarcely gave themselves the trouble to acquire the Egyptian tongue, and several of them quite abandoned the Macedonian". (Antony by Plutarch, translated by John Dryden). Od ovoj izvadok gledame deka nekoi od Ptolemeite go zapostavile svojot makedonski jazik (verojatno zaradi polesna komunikacija so pripadnicite na drugite anrodi vo nivnata drzhava), no Plutarch toa ne go pishuva za Cleopatra VII, shto znachi deka taa si go zboruvala i majchiniot makedonski jazik. Podatocite se zemeni od knigata "DESCENDENTS OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT OF MACEDON (SUBTITLE: Zoshto deneshnite Makedonci se potomci na antichkite Makedonci?)" od Aleksandar Donski, soon aviable in English |
| SamovilaGoddess | Za Makedoncite i nivnite "Grcki bogovi" Macedonians did not worship the Greek gods, there is not a single temple discovered on the territory of Macedonia which resembles the temples in Greece. Alexander sacrificed to "Macedonian gods according to ancestral rituals, and ordered a torch-race and gymnastic contest to follow." Urlich Wilken’s Alexander the Great: p. 187, line 15, we read the following passage referring to his advances to the Hyphasis: "Alexander built twelve great tower-like altars on the nearer side of the river. We have been informed by those who refer everything to Babylonia, that this was for the twelve signs of the zodiac. In reality it was the twelve gods of Macedonia to whom these altars were raised." Key words are: Twelve Macedonian gods, not Greek. The fact that the Macedonians had their own gods, does prove that they had different religion from the Greeks who worshiped different gods. To this we can add the writings of the ancient author Plutarch: 'Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by erecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a Macedonian Ares' [p.216] Macedonians had their own Gods and religion, separate from the Greeks. Macedonian Ares is a Macedonian god, which the ancient Greeks here compare to their own Ares. The fact that they call it "Macedonian Ares" clearly states that it is not the Greek God Ares, but a Macedonian god equivalent to the Greek Ares, whose name they had substituted with Ares. This phenomena when the ancient Greeks substitute the names of the foreign gods with names of their own gods, is called interpretatio graeca. In the ancient Greek texts we also find the Greeks referring to one Egyptian God as Egyptian Athena. Of course, the real name of this Egyptian god can not be Athena (just like the name of the Macedonian god above was not Ares), since the Egyptians didn't worship Greek gods The ancient Greek writers here use interpretatio graeca in order to better relate to their audience the magnitude of the Macedonian and Egyptian gods, both foreign to them. The above quote, furthermore, clearly shows that not only Macedonians had their own gods and religion distinct from the Greeks, but they also subdued Greece. |
| SamovilaGoddess | Duri ima DNA dokaz deka segasnite Makedonci i antickite Makedonci se ist narod, a za Grcite, ne so nemaat nikakva vrska so Makedoncite (segasnite i antickite) tuku nemaat nikakva vrska so antickite Grci: Ancient Macedonian Genes in the the Modern Macedonian Nation not-related to the Greek Nation National Center for Biotechnology Information Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001 Feb; 57(2):118-127 Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. [email protected] Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martinez-Laso J. HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. PMID: 11260506 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] NCBI SOURCE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract. NCBI Website: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/. Other NCBI genetic researches on the Cretans, Palestinians, Morocans, Algerians, Spanish, Basques, Italians, Mexican Mazatecans, Thais, Lebanese, etc. |
| SamovilaGoddess | I uste edno nesto. Antickite Makedonci bea "Slavik" narod. Potocno proto-Slavik (Veneti) Ako "slavjanite" dojdoa vo 6-7 vek CE, togas zosto vo Stobi e najdeno Glagoliticko pismo od 2000 BCE godina so veli: S'l Bog sum. (So Bog sum) ????? Zosto isto taka se najdeni pisma za bozicite VEDY (na vodata) i ZEMANA (na zemjata) vo R.Makedonija i vo egejska Makedonija so poteknuvaat od 4000-5000 BCE???? Pozdrav! |
| slasa | Alexander the great of "MAKEDONIJA" was the greatest general in the in the World, he was the best and he was a "MACEDONIAN"he defeted the greeks and killed over 100.000 of them, he hated the so much that he destroyd the greeks citys and he destroyd everything witch did come in hes way. He was a macedonian and spoke old macedonian. The greeks should not talk about are macedonian history!! they should learn about there own greek history. I hope some day that the macedonians would rise agin and unit like they did for about 2000 yers ago and that we would take back everything witch have been stolen.. Macedonians through the world please dont forget your roots.. Best regards, Mikael Saveski ' ova e sinmi 10 godini |
| mikael | |
| MACEDONIAN | First of all,I am asking you what does the name of (your) king Alexandros means? Because I am sure that you don't have a clue what it means, listen carefully: Alex-andros comes from the two GREEK words alex and andras. Alex is what you put infront of some words when you want to avoid some thing...for example the bullet proof vest is alex-isfero, sfera means bullet in GREEK. So Alexandros is him who can't be with other men arround him, as andras means MAN in GREEK (with balls). If he was slav [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]what a name!!!! then tell me what his father name Filippos mean? You should learn history better and you will be embarast of your slavic past. You came to where you are now a 1000 years after Alexander died in the name of the big GREECE. It suit you well that you whant to be part of our history, thats why your ignorance schools teache you this bullshit about your poor past being of no importance at all. So you can call your selfs Skopians and try to go forward instead of trying to be based of an borrowed historical person that you should not even talk about. Have a nice try. wishing for the best in the future... |
| MACEDONIAN | hello luca piperka how are you? how is thinhs there in australia? You know some times i can guess some moves that people that i deal with are doing! And yes it is true !!!I know the reasons that forced you to go there[^][^][^] Reason 1) You feel shame for where you come from (come on admit this dont be shy!) 2) You are looking for PEOPLE, it is true i know and i feel realy sorry for you it is so bad for someone his own country to be a Big whorehouse and all your mothers the prostitutes So i sugest you to stay there and make your life.Find someone to fill your holes and be happy as you deserve it!!!!!! |
| MACEDONIAN | Hello graf i see you have send over 2000 bullshits! Why my poor boy? speak to dady.Speak don't be afraid i know more than you i can help you to see the future positive and for you! Lesson first : GO INFRONT OF A BIG MIRROR SO BIG THAT YOU CAN SEE ALL OF YOUR BODY. STAY THERE FOR 30 SECONDS THEN CLOSE YOUR EYES,OK UNTIL NOW DO YOU FEEL WHAT I MEAN? DO IT AGAIN LOOK EVERY DETAIL OF YOUR SELF AND CLOSE YOUR EYES AGAIN FOR 30 SECONDS. YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTANT YET? OK IT IS NO PROBLEM I WAS EXPECTING SOMETHING LIKE THAT FROM YOU.OK I'LL GIVE YOU THE ANSWER. THIS IS BECAUSE I WANT TO GIVE YOU TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE. YOU NOTICED THAT WHEN YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES YOU SEE NOTHING!!!!!!!! THATS EXACTLY YOU SEE WHEN YOU OPEN YOUR EYES[:o)][:o)][:o)][:o)] DONT WORRY THE FIRST LESSON IS QUITE TOUGH THE SECOND IT WILL BE EASYIER YOU WILL START TO LEARN |
| graf | Zdr macedonian, Good to see that you are a total fag. Tell me one thing, why is it that grrrk like yourself (really fuck up ones) can't get over the fact that we MACEDONIANS are not poo jammers ie. Grrks ?? IT seems to me that you have been taken advantaged of by your grrk government and brain washed. Sorry to heard that, but if you want I can bash the fuck out of your head and cure you of this trouble. Just like you said "DONT WORRY THE FIRST LESSON IS QUITE TOUGH THE SECOND IT WILL BE EASYIER YOU WILL START TO LEARN". |
| n/a | quote:GAMENI MANASU PUSIGENISE!!!WANKER!!!![:D][:D][:D][:0] |
| Thunder from down under | Pusti malaka gamoto panagija pederakis[:D] Alexaned of Macedonia was experemeting and he mixed Gypsies, Syrians, Persians, and few other rubbish ones and he made today greeks , with the material available at the time he succseed to make the agliest people in the known universe |
| Thunder from down under | Hes plan must have been to scare the people of India with this breed of ugly greek people |
| MACEDONIAN | I am realy happy that once again you sawed me your high civilization... thank you very mutch. Ready to help you with your comunist misery if you if you whant to..! xxx |
| n/a | quote:Where the hell did you learn your English grammar[?] Your spelling is disgusting!!!![:D][:D][:D][:D] |
| graf | quote:The thing that grrk gave the world was gay ass fuckers. |
| fio | quote:Filippos (koj ne ti e napishan pravilno) t.e. Filip znaci Ljubitel na konji. |
| Thunder from down under | quote:We Macedonians come 3 billion years ago from the stars when we use to fly in the sky , you dumb grekos tought we were gods |
| Thunder from down under | There was a greek , italian and australian and god give them a second chance to live again, but he told them even if the think of doing anything wrong he will take them back , anyways the australian man soon as he found pub he tough of drinking bear and god took him back to heaven , the italian and the greek continue walking when a bus was leaving and there was a wallet with money in it, near the bus station, so the italian man bend over to pick it up and both Italian and grek man dissapier god took both of them to heaven You to dumb to get it GREKO |
| graf | [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] |
| fumfudge | T-Man, That's a good one dude. _______ MWO start your membership now!(to sign up send Graf a private message) |
| MACEDONIAN | Common guys...why you are so agressive? I know that you feel embarassed of what you are but, hey..., thats life, shits happen all the time. Who knows maybe next time you will be born Albenians[:D][:D][:D][:o)], monocells organisms[;)]. As for the joke i realy liked it but I feel embarassed that we dont have any jokes about skopians...you are not important enough to get one...sorry that's how it is.[:(] I wonder what kind of person opens forums with that name any way...[^] Ok lets cut the bullshits...this is a $1000 question: who was Alexandrou the great tutor? come on don't be shy..? who and of what origin? the answer tomorrow...see ya guys... |
| graf | Grrk who cares what u say !!! u are a grrrkk thats likes to poo jam |
| dj_poo | quote:Last time I checked Skopje was a city in Macedonia, and not a country. You don't even know about geography, so what the hell do you know about history? Give me a break!!!! Just to let you know...............Alexander the Great was born in Macedonia to King Philip of Macedonia. Alexander and the Macedonians conquered Greece and not the other way around. Don't tell me about Macedonian history. It is bad enough that I hear it from my relatives who live in Greece and think their Greek, but I forgive them for being ignorant because their my family. |
| Thunder from down under | ABE GREKO 1.why did the greek governament changed the surnames of the macedonian people 2. why arent the DECATA BEGALCI (from the civil war) allowed to return and visit they parents graves 3. why is greek police listening under the windows of the macedonian houses to see if they speak macedonian |
| MACEDONIAN | Ok lets be serious for a moment: 1.Who told you that there are no greek families that are still feared in Skopia (that is how your country isn know to us FYROM) of speaking Greek??? Well you didnt know that... 2.Do you know when that ocurred? I mean of that not letting you speak slavic..? 3.You are talking of stealing your heritage....well think again...you and your kind such as Bulgarians, Yugoslavians, Albanians...are of the same slavic nation that is eating its self. 4.Your alphabet was not even existed since 12th century....were Kyrilos and Methodios gave you the alphabet you still use now(Kyrilc alphabet). And to finish this message you are right for one thing you manage to pass through the aglosaxonic countries your fake name as Macedonians. You can have because you dont have the slitest idea of what this name is all about...I would really like to know how do you perceive this idea of Macedonia..? I feel sorry for you guys as I can see that you are true BARBERIANS...with no knowledge at all. See ya dont wonna be ya.... |
| StormChild | To shut the grrk up once and for all.... THIS IS HISTORY.... READ ON.... Greek propagandists claim that ancient Macedonia was Greek. Why then, would the Holy Bible distinguish between the two? The history of the Macedonian people began in approximately 2200 B.C. The Ancient Macedonian Empire reached its pinnacle with the conquests of King Philip of Macedon and his son Alexander the Great. Greek propagandists insist that the ancient Macedonians were Greek and therefore, Greece has the right to the name, Macedonia. Worldwide scholarly opinion accepts that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct people from the Greeks and that the name Macedonia belongs to the Macedonians. Here are some quotes... "Examining the dynamics of Macedonian relations with the Greek city-states, he (Borza) suggests that the Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of Greek culture into their own society, maintained a distinct ethnicity as a Balkan people". "It is universally known that the classical Greek authors did not recognise the Macedonians as their fellow countrymen, calling them barbarians, and they considered Macedonian domination in Greece as an alien rule, imported from outside by the members of other tribes, the, as Plutarch says, Allophyloi." "The language of these Macedonians was not Greek, nor were their gods, nor were they recognized by the Greeks." "The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division." "Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that Greek was difficult, indeed a foreign tongue to them." Excerpt from Macedonia Through the Ages In the course of the second pre-Christian millennium, the ancient Greeks descended in several migratory waves as goatherds and shepherds from the interior of the Balkans to Greece. Some passed through the Morava-Vardar Valley and across the plain of Thessaly on their way south, while others went south through Epirus. More recent scholars point to Asia Minor as the original Greek homeland. There is no evidence that prehistoric Macedonia was ever occupied by ancient Greeks. Archeological finds from Macedonia are meager and sporadic. The scholars believe that ancient Macedonia lay beyond the cultural and ethnic borders of the Bronze Age Mycenaean Greek Civilization (1400-1100 BC). Ancient Macedonia was home to many tribes and nations. The ancient Macedonians claimed kinship with the Illirians, Tracians, and Phrygians, but not with the Greeks. In fact, the Brygians of Macedonia are believed to be the European branch of people, who in Asia Minor were known as Phrygians. Greek migrants came to Macedonia, Trace, and Illiria after they exhausted the possibilities of settlement in Asia Minor, Italy, France, Spain and Scythia (Ukraine and Russia). However, they did not consider Macedonia especially attractive for permanent settlement. Neither did the Macedonians welcome them as openheartedly as did the Italians and Scythians. By the middle of the fourth century BC, the Greek settlers were expelled from Macedonia and their cities, including Aristotle's native Stragira, razed to the ground by the Macedonian king Philip II (360-336). Aristotle died in exile in Greece. The Macedonian "barbarian" defeated Greece at the battle of Chaeronea in August 338 BC and appointed himself "Commander of the Greeks". This battle had established Macedonian hegemony over Greece and this date is commonly taken as the end of Greek history and the beginning of the Macedonian era. Greece did not regain its independence until 1827 AD. In 335 BC, Philip's son Alexander campaigned toward the Danube, to secure Macedonia's northern frontier. On rumors of his death, a revolt broke out in Greece with the support of leading Athenians. Alexander marched south covering 240 miles in two weeks. When the revolt continued he sacked Thebes, killing 6,000 people and enslaving the survivors. Only the temples and the house of the poet Pindar were spared |
| StormChild | and there is more.... The Ancient Macedonian Language In Greece today people start from the a priori assumption the "Greek identity of Macedonia is an obvious fact". Identifying the Greeks from the ethnic and linguistic point of view with the ancient Macedonians is not scientifically supportable. Although none of the Mycenaean scholars in the world takes seriously Greek hypothetical interpretations of the Mycenaean texts, Greek scholarship nevertheless wishes to discover in them "proofs" that the ancient Macedonians were Indo-Europeans, proto-Hellenes, and that their language was the oldest, purest and most conservative Greek dialect which at the same time cast a new light on the history of the Greek ethnos (Istoria tou Elinikou ethnous, Proistoria kai proto istoria, Athens, 1970). This thesis reached its culmination at the beginning of the 1980's when an unusual jubilee under the title of 4000 years of Greek Macedonia was celebrated with great pomp. The theory thus constructed has pretensions to scholarship, but in fact it starts out from unsupported presuppositions. The history of the Ancient Macedonians over a lengthy period of 1 600 years (2200-600 BCE) has been reconstructed on the basis of a pre-judgement that they could have been nothing other than Greeks. In fact there is no argument that will prove any phase of a alleged close relation between the Greeks and the Macedonians in the ancient period. The assertation, very often emphasized, that there is no preserved documents about the language of the Macedonians, is unconvincing and is result of a prejudiced policy. It is impossible that the great and powerful Macedonian state should not have produced numerous administrative documentation. The question is where that documentation had been kept; is it still on that undiscovered place or is it destroyed, and if this is true who destroyed it and when. Only about hundred words of the old Macedonian language are known. While earlier on Doric forms were being sought in the Macedonian words, Greek linguists are now investing great efforts in revealing archaic Aeolian, Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenaean parallels. The hypothesis that ancient Macedonian was closest to the Thessalian and Magnesian Aeolian dialect is based upon a fragment from Greek mythology in Hesiod (Fr.7-MW), that Magnes and Makedon were first cousins by the sons of Helen. It is methodologically unsound to reconstruct histor y on the basis of. The same myth offers a similar link between the Romans and Greeks, and consequently, according to the modern Greeks, this would imply that even the Romans were Greeks ??? It is clear that among the glosses there are borrowings from Greek which in antique times was a language of great prestige (as English and French are today, and Latin was in the Middle Ages). "The Kultursprache of ancient Macedonians, as soon as they felt the need for one, was inevitably Greek, as it was in the case of various other ancient peoples. There was no feasible alternative. But as N.G.L. Hammond remarked, in the memorable closing words of volume I of his History of Macedonia, "a means of communications is very far from assuring peaceful relations between two peoples, as we know from our experience of the modern world."9 It is equally far (we might add) from betokening any consciousness of a common interest. The Greek words however have been adapted according to a different, non-Greek phonetic system, just as English borrowed words from Latin (dignity = dignitas, tatis) and just as any language today borrows words from English and Latin (English Computer, Macedonian, Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, kompjuter; or Latin - dignitas, tatis, English - dignity, Macedonian - dignitet). Here are some examples from ancient Greek and Macedonian: Macedonian Greek ade (sky) aither (air) danos (death) thanatos (death) keb(a)le (head) kephale (head) But at the same time there are among the glosses such words that are not found in Greek but have parallels in other Indo - European languages: Macedonian: aliza (a white layer under a bark of tree) Slavonic: e/olha (a white layer under a bark of tree) Macedonian: goda (innards) Greek: entera (innards) Old Indian Sanskrit: gudam (intestine) From the analysis of the ancient Macedonian glosses it can be concluded that ancient Macedonian was an Indo-European language distinct from Greek. The well-known French Indo-European scholar A. Meje says that Greek is no closer to ancient Macedonian than it is to any other Indo-European language. Another fact proving the idea that ancient Macedonian was a separate language is the fact that the mother tongue of Alexander the Great was not understood by the ancient Greeks: a fact of which there are explicit proofs. (Quintus Curtius Rufus, VI, 9, 37 ). Plutarchus wrote that the Macedonians had their own language: "But, he [Alexander]...jumped up on his feet and started to call his shield bearer in Macedonian [and that was a sign of great danger]..." Plutarchus, Alexander, 51. The question of the use of the Macedonian language was raised by Alexander himself during the trial of Philotas, one of his generals accused of treason. Alexander said to Philotas: "The Macedonians are about to pass judgment upon you; I wish to know whether you will address them in their native tongue." Thereupon Philotas replied: "Besides the Macedonians there are many present who, I think, will more easily understand what I shall say if I use the same language which you have employed, for no other reason, I suppose, than in order that you speech might be understood by the greater number." Then said the king: "Do you not see how Philotas loathes even the language of his fatherland? For he alone disdains to learn it. But let him by all means speak in whatever way he desires, provided that you remember he holds our customs in as much abhorrence as our language." Quintus Curtius Rufus, Alexander, VI. ix. 34 - 36 There is no doubt that the letters sent by the soldiers to their relatives home were written in their mother tongue, in Macedonian. and there is more..... read on in my next post |
| deni | tatarce , ne jadi gomna ,i ne se praj englez |
| Byzantine | quote:Kak si be Juvigi? Most probably we'll do so together.At the end of the day we both belong to the same church Pravoslavna,and not the Barkana Titovska Tsarkva pretected by the pope in Rome. It must piss you guys off more than us.King Samuil the Macedonian? Or how about my all time favourite Georgi Dimitrov was "macedonian"? Bulgarians travelers to FYROM are being arrested and harrased because they don't agree that western Bulgaria is "Macedonian",when are you guys gonna kick some ass? Take care, samo Levski. Byzantine |
| Byzantine |
Dear unsurprisingly misinformed Astibus,
quote:Don't add to your ignorance the characteristic of hypocrisy.Your statements thus far are purposely or due to hate,false.As such your not sorry,this is how you would like things to be.It would make your world a better place if what you believed was true. 1)Greeks are not one nation? No kiding. It is even in our history and our mythology that we are decended from tribes like the Dorians,Ionians,Eolians,etc who in interacting with such more ancient civilizations as the Myceneans and the Minoans gave birth to what we call Hellenes. 2)The first to make an alphabet? Here your ignorance is probably peaking. Many letters the Greek alphabet is based on are Phoenecian hierogliphics.Meaning composite symbols which were still representing words or phrases.For example: Alpha: comes from the Phoenecian word Alef, a deer. Beta:probably pronounced Veh-tah,which meant roof or house. Gamma: Gamil,meaning camel.etc etc. The Greeks were the first to use letters as we do today,as nothing more than phonetic symbols.Alpha is nothing more than the pronounciation of "AAAA".Therefore making it easier to evolve beyond the limitations of hierogliphics. Did the Sumerians have such an alphabet? the honest answer is you don't know,but you would like to assume so as it would diminish Greek civilization and that would make you happy.And for that I'm sorry,because your hate for civilization will only harm you and limit your thinking process. 3)Philosophy:What exactly have you read concerning Philosophy?Do you base this on your own knowledge or some missinterpreted theory expressed on the National Geographic channel? Is it true or not that the golden age of Athens was the first time that we see physical and metaphysical issues being analyzed with specific terminology.Is it or not the first time that specific geometric theorems are articulated and used in practice.What is it about Plato's book Utopia,and Aristotle's Metaphysics you would'nt call revolutionary when at the time there was not even another existing language that could facilitate such an evolution in thaught (and please be specific) If you really wanted to know what Greeks think of themselves you would look at Plato who gave the following definition: Greek is he who results from Greek education.The idea being that the Greek education and way of life once learned sufficiently force the person to become Greek as every other alternative seems to be of lesser substance. Even today,terms you may use in English or your mother tongue are for me a compromise and a simplification.This because the words I use when writing or thinking in Greek are more specific than those of the languages you think in or write.Did you ever ask yourself among this Greek bashing how it effects someone's thought when he has a basic vocabulary almost double that of yours?Does it make him or her think faster and more accurately than you? Now you begin to understand Plato. best regards,and chill don't be so hatefull.Even if you want our destruction you'll be able to achieve it better with a clear mind and a firm grasp of reality. |
| graf | It is plan and simple I think the grrk that believe that Macedonia is grrk are fucked. U have been brain washed by your government. It is good to see that your government is slowly changing there way of thinking and letting us macedonians be macedonian in greece. |
| Astibus | Byzantine first off i will write to you in a respectful manner which is something you seem incapable of,its like you itch for a chance in every sentance to denegrate me by calling me ignorant,hateful and basically a liar i'd like for you to read what i wrote again and then compare it to your own and see which is which, now lets get started- your claim that the apostles spoke every language known to man through the gift of god is a question of faith and not fact like most things in the bible.I have read the bible many times and the name Isus is not a title ,that is his name ,Hristos is the title as is Emmanuel which meant "God is with us" and is a name applied to the messiah. Yes the Byzantines spoke Greek but this does not make them Greek.Do you think it would be easier for the Romans to teach everyone Latin or simply to adopt the Greek language just in the same way as the BULGARS adopted Slavic instead of forcing them to learn Bulgarian.Tsar Samuil your famous "Bulgarian" Tsar spoke both Greek and Slavic in his court does this make him Greek?The ancient city of Byzantium was Greek but the Byzantine empire was not.For a people who hate us for stealing "their" history you sure arent helping your cause by trying to steal Roman history. Your reference to the Aeniad is exactly what is was talking about, modern day greeks use this very book to say that it is proof that Romans were Greek. Ok now you say Greeks are not one nation? no kidding. True but you only mention what made the ancient greeks greek what about the modern greeks who claim to be living in a 99% ethnically pure Hellas(this is from the greek government not my ignorance again) what about these "greeks"? Im sorry to break this to you but the Greeks were not even the first as you claim to use alphabetical letters as phonetic symbols.In the year 2000 Yale archealogists John and Deborah Darnell found an inscription on a lime stone rock in Wadi El Hol,Egypt.which was a mix of egyptian glyphs and semitic letters dating from the year 1800bc so as you can see again you and not i are wrong. The golden age of Athens? yes it must have been nice. But they were not the first thats all im saying, you seem to forget about a people who called themselves Egyptians man, didnt the building of the pyramids invovle science? You mention Plato and give a quote which i find very interesting it shows me that even back then Greeks thought they were better than everyone,well my friend you know where that kind of theory got your ancient brothers and more recently we were shown by the NAZIS where this kind of thinking leads. Im sure you'll respond and insult me even further.Oh and one more thing i was born in CANADA not Communist Yugoslavia so if you think im just some commie trying to fuck over your great "DEMOCRATIC" hellas you're wrong.[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)] |
| Astibus | Byzantine ive been reading over some of your stuff and most of it is misleading or false you told legal that Alexander participated in the Olympic games this is false he was invited to participate but declined saying he would only race against kings,you also said that barbarians were not allowed to participate in the olympics which is true and the exact reason why the Macedonians set up their own games at dium. Also the only ancient hellenes that didnt submit to Macedonian rule were the spartans who said they could never accept a foreign ruler. Its interesting to note that the Macedonian army only had 7,000 "allied"(more likely hostages) greeks in their army and the fact that the greeks back in Achia revolted whenever they could doesnt help your cause.The greeks begged the romans to come and help liberate them this says a lot for what they thought of the macedonians back then. |
| HanAvitohol | ×åòíèöè ïðèêðèâàò äî ñìúðò èçòåãëÿíåòî íà ìèðíîòî íàñåëåíèå Ïàçÿò â òàéíà ïîëîâèí âåê âúñòàíèåòî íà Êðúñòîâäåí Îðãàíèçàòîðèòå ìó áèëè öàðñêè îôèöåðè è áëèçêè íà äâîðåöà Ä-ð Áîæèäàð ÄÈÌÈÒÐΠÂúñòàíèåòî íà Êðúñòîâäåí å ÷àñò îò Èëèíäåíñêî-Ïðåîáðàæåíñêîòî. Òÿ îáà÷å å ìàëêî èçâåñòíà íà ïîâå÷åòî áúëãàðè. Øèðîêî ñå ÷åñòâà âúñòàíèåòî â Áèòîëñêî (II ðåâîëþöèîíåí îêðúã) è â Ñòðàíäæà (VII ðåâîëþöèîíåí îêðúã). Íî âúñòàíèåòî â Ïèðèíñêèÿ êðàé ñå ïðåìúë÷àâàøå. Ìíîãî ïúòè ñúì ñå ïèòàë çàùî å òàêà è íå íàìèðàì äðóãî îáÿñíåíèå îñâåí ôàêòà, ÷å âúñòàíèåòî â òîçè êðàé íà îòå÷åñòâîòî å èçíåñåíî ïî÷òè èçöÿëî îò ÷åòèòå íà Âúðõîâíèÿ ìàêåäîíî-îäðèíñêè êîìèòåò. À ïî îöåíêèòå íà èñòîðèîãðàôèÿòà ìåæäó 1944 è 1989 ã. òîçè êîìèòåò áå îò "ëîøèòå". Áèë ñúñòàâåí îò öàðñêè îôèöåðè è áèë áëèçúê íà äâîðåöà. Òîâà áåøå ãëóïîñò íàä ãëóïîñòèòå. "Äîáðàòà" ÒÌÎÐÎ (Òàéíà ìàêåäîíî-îäðèíñêà ðåâîëþöèîííà îðãàíèçàöèÿ) ñúùî áå ïðåòúïêàíà îò îôèöåðè îò áúëãàðñêàòà àðìèÿ è ïîääúðæàøå ñúùî äîáðè îòíîøåíèÿ ñ äâîðåöà. Îñâåí òîâà ñëåä èçâåñòåí ïåðèîä íà íàïðåæåíèå ìåæäó ÒÌÎÐÎ è ÂÌÎÊ (Âúòðåøåí ìàêåäîíî-îäðèíñêè êîìèòåò) òå îòäàâíà ðàáîòåõà ðúêà çà ðúêà à ñúâìåñòíîòî ó÷àñòèå âúâ âúñòàíèåòî ëèêâèäèðà îêîí÷àòåëíî ðàçëè÷èÿòà è äîâåäå äî îáåäèíåíèåòî èì ïðåç 1905 ã. Ñïåöèàëíî çà Èëèíäåíñêî-Ïðåîáðàæåíñêîòî âúñòàíèå äâåòå îðãàíèçàöèè èìàõà ñïîðàçóìåíèå çà ñúâìåñòíè äåéñòâèÿ. Ïèðèíñêèÿò êðàé áå âêëþ÷åí â IV Ñåðñêè ðåâîëþöèîíåí îêðúã íà ÒÌÎÐÎ ñ íåãëàñåí ãëàâåí ðúêîâîäèòåë ßíå Ñàíäàíñêè. Îêðúãúò èìàøå íÿêîè îñîáåíîñòè â ñðàâíåíèå ñ äðóãèòå. Áúëãàðèòå æèâååõà ðåäîì ñúñ çíà÷èòåëíî òóðñêî, áúëãàðîìîõàìåäàíñêî è ãðúöêî íàñåëåíèå. Ñ èçêëþ÷åíèå íà ÷àñò îò áúëãàðîìîõàìåäàíèòå, óâëå÷åíè óñïåøíî îò ÒÌÎÐÎ, îñòàíàëèòå ñå îòíàñÿõà âðàæäåáíî êúì áîðáàòà íà áúëãàðèòå çà îñâîáîæäåíèå.  îáëàñòòà ïîðàäè ãðàíèöàòà ñ Áúëãàðèÿ èìàøå êðóïíè òóðñêè ãàðíèçîíè. Äðóãà îñîáåíîñò â Ïèðèíñêèÿ êðàé áå îáñòîÿòåëñòâîòî, ÷å ÂÌÎÊ èìàøå ñèëíè ïîçèöèè â òîçè ðåãèîí. Òîâà áå åñòåñòâåíî - ïîðàäè áëèçîñòòà ñè ñ Áúëãàðèÿ ìíîãî þíîøè îò Ïèðèíñêî ó÷åõà âúâ Âîåííîòî ó÷èëèùå â Ñîôèÿ, à çàâúðøèëèòå ïîïúëâàõà îôèöåðñêèÿ êîðïóñ íà àðìèÿòà íè è ñúîòâåòíî ÂÌÎÊ. Òðåòàòà îñîáåíîñò áå, ÷å ïðåç 1902 ã. ÂÌÎÊ áå âå÷å âäèãàëà âúñòàíèå â òîçè êðàé - ò. íàð. Ãîðíîäæóìàéñêî âúñòàíèå, êîåòî åñòåñòâåíî áå íåóñïåøíî. Çàãèíàõà ñòîòèöè áúëãàðè, äðóãè áÿõà ïðèíóäåíè äà åìèãðèðàò â Áúëãàðèÿ. Íî íàé-ëîøîòî áå, ÷å â ðåçóëòàò íà ìàñîâèòå îáèñêè â íåâúñòàíàëèòå ñåëèùà áå èççåòà ãîëÿìà ÷àñò îò îðúæèåòî íà ðåâîëþöèîííèòå êîìèòåòè. Ñúãëàñíî ðåøåíèÿòà îò êîíãðåñà â Ñîëóí (2-4 ÿíóàðè 1903 ã.) âñåêè ðåâîëþöèîíåí îêðúã ñàì òðÿáâàøå äà ðåøè êàê äà âúñòàíå - ìàñîâî èëè ÷ðåç çàñèëåíè ÷åòíè÷åñêè àêöèè. Êîíãðåñúò íà IV ðåâîëþöèîíåí îêðúã ñå ñúñòîÿ â êðàÿ íà àâãóñò 1903 ã. Îò÷èòàéêè îñîáåíîñòèòå íà îêðúãà, äåëåãàòèòå ðåøèõà âúñòàíèåòî äà èçáóõíå íà 14 ñåïòåìâðè (Êðúñòîâäåí) è çà äà ñå çàïàçÿò íàñåëåíèåòî è ñåëèùàòà, äà ñå èçðàçè ñàìî â íàïàäåíèÿ íà ÷åòè âúðõó òóðñêèòå ãàðíèçîíè. Âåäíàãà ñëåä êðàÿ íà êîíãðåñà â Ïèðèíñêèÿ êðàé íàõëóâà îò Áúëãàðèÿ ïúðâàòà ÷åòà íà ÂÌÎÊ, âîäåíà ëè÷íî îò ðúêîâîäèòåëÿ íà îðãàíèçàöèÿòà ãåíåðàë Öîí÷åâ. Ñêîðî ÿ ïîñëåäâàò è äðóãè ÷åòè, âîäåíè îò áúëãàðñêè îôèöåðè è ïîäîôèöåðè - ïîëêîâíèê ßíêîâ, ×åðíîïååâ, Ñîòèðîâ, Çîãðàôîâ. Òåçè ÷åòè íå ñà îòáîðè þíàöè ñ íàêðèâåíè êàëïàöè è îðúæèÿ îò ñòàðèííè ìàðêè, ãîòîâè îùå òîãàâà çà ìóçåÿ.  íà÷àëîòî íà àâãóñò 1903 ã., êîãàòî êíÿç Ôåðäèíàíä çàìèíàâà çàäúëãî â ÷óæáèíà, ìèíèñòúð-ïðåäñåäàòåëÿò ãåíåðàë Ðà÷î Ïåòðîâ ñâàëÿ òèõîìúëêîì çàáðàíàòà äà ñå ôîðìèðàò ÷åòè â Áúëãàðèÿ è îùå ïî-òèõîìúëêîì çàïîâÿäâà äà ñå âúîðúæàâàò äèðåêòíî îò áúëãàðñêèòå àðìåéñêè ñêëàäîâå. ×åòèòå íà ÂÌÎÊ, ñúñòàâåíè îò ñòîòèöè äîáðîâîëöè, ìèíàëè ïðåç âîåííà ñëóæáà â áúëãàðñêàòà àðìèÿ, êîìàíäâàíè îò îôèöåðè è ïîäîôèöåðè ñ áîåí îïèò îò äðóãè ÷åòè ïî ìàêåäîíñêèòå è òðàêèéñêèòå ïëàíèíè è âúîðúæåíè ñ íàé-ìîäåðíèòå ïóøêè íà åïîõàòà (ìàíëèxåðà), ñà ñè ðåàëíè áîéíè ïîäåëåíèÿ íà àðìèÿòà. Ñ òîâà ñå îáÿñíÿâàò è óñïåõèòå èì, è ôàêòúò, ÷å íèòî åäíà îò òÿõ íå ïðåòúðïÿâà ïîðàæåíèå. Äåéñòâèòåëíî, ñëåä êàòî ïîìèòàò òóðñêèòå ãðàíè÷íè îòðÿäè, ÷åòèòå íàíàñÿò òåæêè ïîðàæåíèÿ íà èçïðàòåíèòå ñðåùó òÿõ òóðñêè ÷àñòè â ìåñòíîñòòà Ñâ. Òðîèöà, ñ. Îáèäèì, ãàðà Ïèðèí è äð. Ïàðàëåëíî ñ òÿõ äåéñòâàò è ÷åòèòå íà ìåñòíèòå âúñòàíèöè, êîèòî ÷åñòî âëèçàò â áîé, îáåäèíåíè ñ áðàòÿòà ñè îò Áúëãàðèÿ. Çàãúðáåíè ñà ñòàðè âðàæäè è ïîíÿêîãà áðàòîóáèéñòâà. ßíå Ñàíäàíñêè íàïðèìåð ñå ïðèòè÷âà íà ïîìîù ñ ÷åòàòà ñè íà ãàðà Ïèðèí, êîãàòî ÷åòèòå íà Öîí÷åâ (ñ êîãîòî ñà âðàæäóâàëè â ìèíàëîòî) âîäÿò òåæúê áîé ñ òóðöèòå. Óäàðúò â ãðúá íà òóðöèòå, êîéòî ïðàâè ÷åòàòà íà Ñàíäàíñêè, ðàçêúñâà îáðú÷à îêîëî Öîí÷åâ. ×åòèòå ñå ñòàðàÿò äà íå óâëè÷àò â ìàñîâè äåéñòâèÿ íàñåëåíèåòî íà áúëãàðñêèòå ñåëèùà, çà äà íå áúäàò èçãîðåíè îò òóðöèòå, íî çà ñúæàëåíèå òîâà íå å âúçìîæíî íàâñÿêúäå. Ïðè âåñòòà çà ïðîáèâà, èçâúðøåí îò ÷åòèòå íà áúëãàðî-òóðñêàòà ãðàíèöà, âúñòàâà â ãðàíè÷íèÿ òîãàâà Ðàçëîã íàñåëåíèåòî íà áúëãàðñêèÿ êâàðòàë "Êðàïàòà". Ïëàìâàò ÿðîñòíè óëè÷íè áîåâå â òå÷åíèå íà öÿëî äåíîíîùèå. Èçãîðåíè ñà íàä 100 áúëãàðñêè êúùè, óáèòè ñà ñòîòèöè ãðàæäàíè íà Ðàçëîã. Íà 17-è ñðåùó 18 ñåïòåìâðè ìàñîâî âúñòàâà è ãðàä Áåëèöà. Ñëåä òåæêè áèòêè ãðàä÷åòî å èçðàâíåíî ñúñ çåìÿòà. Çà ùàñòèå ïî-ãîëÿìàòà ÷àñò îò æèòåëèòå ìó ñå ñïàñÿâà â Áúëãàðèÿ. Âúñòàíèöèòå â Ïèðèíñêî îñòàâàò íåïîáåäèìè è ñå èçòåãëÿò â Áúëãàðèÿ åäâà êîãàòî ïðåç îêòîìâðè å ñïóñíàòà èíñòðóêöèÿ îò ÒÌÎÐÎ è ÂÌÎÊ áîéíèòå äåéñòâèÿ äà ñå ïðåêðàòÿò ïîðàäè èäâàùàòà çèìà. È òóê íå ìîæå äà íå îòáåëåæèì ïîäâèãà íà ÷åòàòà íà Ðàäîé Òîäåâ îò Áàíñêî. Äâàäåñåò è ïåòòå ÷åòíèöè òðÿáâà äà ïðèêðèâàò äî ñìúðò èçòåãëÿíåòî íà ìèðíîòî íàñåëåíèå êúì Áúëãàðèÿ. Ñâåùåíèê îò öúðêâàòà â Áàíñêî èì ïðàâè ïðèæèâå çàóïîêîéíî îïåëî â åäíà îò áàíñêèòå öúðêâè. ×åòàòà çàåäíî ñ âîéâîäàòà äâå äåíîíîùèÿ âîäè òåæúê áîé. Âñè÷êè áåæàíöè ñå ñïàñÿâàò è ïðåìèíàâàò áúëãàðñêàòà ãðàíèöà. Âîéâîäàòà è ÷åòíèöèòå îáà÷å çàãèâàò äî åäèí. Íàä òðóïîâåòå èì òóðñêàòà âîåííà ÷àñò äàâà òðèêðàòåí çàëï âúâ âúçäóõà â çíàê íà ïî÷èò è óâàæåíèå. |
| deni | hanaVOL , translate that shit into english I didn't understand it |
| Canmak | quote:Ok you say you own the country economically, So under your theory the United States of America owns the world....I am sure you see the flaw in your argument there now don't you. MafisKuma I am glad that you asked what the significance of the pyramids is to this debate, they do not play a significant part in this debate but they can be used as an example. How you might ask?......I thought you would never ask.[:D] You see modern day Egyptians are Arabs, no one denies that fact but the ancient egyptians were not Arabs..DNA testing on Egyptian mummies has proven that....also its a known fact(which means it can not be argued) that the Arabs expanded towards the west and into Africa much later then when the pyramids were built. So what does that have to do with this debate you might still be wondering? Well let me put it this way.......the popular greek arguement is that the slavic tribes came into that region (Macedonia) at a much later date and have no rights to call themselves Macedonians and have no right to the history of the Macedonians....the slavs basically came down roughly the same time the arabs went west. SO according to thier arguement the modern day Egyptians have no rights to the wonders that the ancient Egyptians built but yet I have never heard a greek let alone anyone in the world say anything to an Egyptian about that because we know he/she would be laughed at. Regardless on to another point.......the Arab culture is a strong culture basically where ever they the Arabs have conquered they have become the dominant ethnic group, but do you honeslty think that the killed the local ethnic groups of what ever area they conquered..... the answer is clearly no...they mixed with the ethnic groups....but the arab culture remained dominant. Now getting back to the greek argument about the slavs, The Slavic race is the largest race of people in Europe.....with out a doubt......how did they become the largest race in all of europe? They became dominant because they mixed with the locals...of where ever they conquered. Does anyone honestly think that the Slavs had better medical technology back then that lowered thier infant mortality rate.....lol I didn't think so. The Slavic race is the dominant race to this day in Europe because where ever they went the slavic ethnic markings (language, traditions, gods, etc) were the ones that lived. You see alot of ethnic Macedonians do not accept the term SLAV or SLAVIC to me it doesn't bother me....I know that as a Canadian my heritage goes back to that of the Macedonians.....I am also proud that my heritage has slavic blood in it as well......cause folks let remember....as much as the greeks want to argue about the past in modern times they have nothing now (not saying Macedonia has much either but remember she though an old nation is a new country[:p])......but the slavs as a race have dominated all of Eastern Europe, are a nuclear power race, are a space age race, and are a race that has accomplished alot more in modern times then the greeks can ever dream of. So when a greek tries to put you down by calling you a slav tell him or her THANKS cause the greeks are the ones that are the out numbered, they are what a race of 8 million , 12 million, 35 million world wide? Slavs I believe are 10 times that amount just in Europe.......who knows what they are world wide. Ingnore the Greeks or who ever may argue , the cause is lost for them.....on all the major media its called Macedonia, on the postage sent there people put Macedonia and it arrives....let them try to argue and deny your heritage but thats all they can do.....they can never take it away from you, in retrospect maybe the Albanian uprising has even helped in the cause against the Greeks arguments. |
| Legal-Eagle | I am what I am, and NO bastard will tell me otherwise. If i want i can be chinese, dutch, german, indian, moari, phillipino or even martian then it shouldnt worry anyone's asshole what i call myself. It should not have any significance. You are what you believe you are. No one has the god given right to debate otherwise. Frankly, i have had a gutful of this argument (not this one on the forum, but the whole political debate that has raged). Actually as i read some of the pathetic comments stemming from the 'Oh-so-civilised-greek-culture' (greeks? is that what they call themselves these days?) i cant help chuckling at the irony. How dare they question who 'we' are, when they themselves have had trouble identifying who 'they' are throughout the centuries. "Boulgaroktonos" -> so who are you? or dont you know? are you searching for your heritage here, hoping that you will become enlightened to your past? Are you still wandering aimlessly like your ancestors trying to find an identity that you can call your own? Mate, put your energy into building a bridge and getting over the issue. I am still undecided to why the greeks lay such great claim to alexander, being greek and why they persist with the untruths. Everyone keeps citing extracts or historical facts, and still you my dear "greek' friend cant seem to grasp the concept. Because i am such a caring individual, let me put it to you in the following: YOU are GREEK and the MACEDONIANS are MACEDONIAN That said, if you want to be Macedonian today, please feel free.[:)] For what it is worth i dont give a FiretrUCK. I sure as hell dont need anyone telling me who i can be today. I dont need your recognition, and i dont need the recognition of the masses. So my dear Boulgaroktonos go any play in your own backyard with your loincloth and spear before we skitch the Turks onto you, and then you can fully appreciate the meaning of "apo pi sou".[:)] ** I sincerely ask my forum members to excuse me for my temporary lapse of intelligence and punctuation while posting the above ** |
| Legal-Eagle | quote:Do you still believe that Jules, after the lack of intellectual content in my above post? Or was the operative word 'young' therefore, not pertaining to yours truly?[:I] |
| Boulgaroktonos | Legal-Eagle, no, its not about recognition ,its about stealing our history,and since you dont accept our saying then we have to show you that others (not Greeks) have the same belief ,because its the right one.(Since there will be no Greek to support the opinion that Macedonia isn't Greek).Further more, we gave the world the knowledge (you can't denie this one)and our history is recognised by everyone (except you that is)....I hope i answered your questions. mafisKumA, i agree,yea.How would you feel if someone was stealing you history?You will say that 'yea i know how it feels, you (Greeks) steal our history!!!' ,but history and facts have an opossing opinion,so noone can call himself Macedonian except Greeks.Yea, you can call yourself as you like BUT as long as noone else has the legal and historical right be named Macedonian.(clearly stated from U.N. F9, i didn't say that Pakistanis are Greeks or ancestors of Greeks.You said that.Further more if someone wants to call himself Greek and wants to hold Greek customs and language etc etc then its fine by me.BUT not in order to steal history and land.You try to steal both of them. Personnaly i don't have anything to split with you,I don't know you , you don't know me,the only thing that bothers me is the fact that you call youself Macedonians (Something that you are not ans we ARE) Have a nice day. |
| Boulgaroktonos | BTW , anyone visited the links that i provided to you? |
| OooOo | Another fag propaganda, why would anyone read that? |
| Canmak | I went to the site and I read it but your sites are those of greek sites.....I can give you 1000 sites that say my point of the arguement. Dude just accept it that there is a Macedonia, there are people called Macedonian, no matter how much you argue you will not succeed in changing our minds about who we are or what are heritage is. |
| mafisKumA | quote:Let's not get into the nitty gritty of the UN, but if we must then in brief, they too are not quite certain of who or what they themselves are at present. Besides I'm certain that the UN have far more pressing issues at hand than to deal with an insignificant little problem like Greece spitting the dummy. On a personal note, if parents (especially those born and living abroad) didn't brainwash and burden their children with their great great great grandparent's history then perhaps the world would be a more pleasant place to live in. I wish you an even nicer day [:)] |
| Legal-Eagle | quote:You dont have to show me Jack-Shit! I am the least ignorant person that i know, having said that... are you refering to the Macedonians as Thieves? We/they stole your history? THE NERVE OF YOU!!!!!!! A history that no longer holds any significance to the world that we co-exist in, a history that you have had rewritten to suit yourselves. Did you ever once ask what did you TAKE/STEAL from the Macedonians? I figure NOT! Further to your comment that YOUR history (more to the point your VERSION of the history) is recognised by 'everyone' is a blatant taint of the truth. Please define "everyone". You will never achieve your desired result. You are nothing more than a Wanna-be-Macedonian. So be one if you so desire. If you must know, i also have a greek blood line through my veins, which i cannot deny. Do i wake up every morning debating with myself am i Greek or am i Macedonian? NO! And what's this shit about you 'gave the world knowledge'? Knowledge that homosexuality was practised openly by the greeks? I told you about that before, when your male ancestors where screwing each other the Macedonians were screwing your females. I am going to be who i want to be, you also have that choice. Or are you seeking self-validation in political debate. I respect your right to your opinion, however, i dont have to agree with you, nor you with me. ... So it is a case of 'lets agree to disagree'! |
| Thunder from down under | hahhahahhahhahahhahahahhhahhahahhahah koj znaj so mu imat alex napisano ne ke im teknit uste ednas da dojdat grcite na forum |
| graf | it is because those stupid grrk hellenic have been ramed in da GAS too many times ehheehh |
| Thunder from down under | i ve heard that to ,greece was made of few republics, athenians and so on.. Todays greece had nothing to do with ancient greece,they just inherited the name, like serbia did with yugoslavia |
| Rina8619 | Apparently, many of you do not know Alexander's history. I do not know whether he was Greek or Macedonian. But he did conquer Greece and Macedonia, along with Iran, Iraq and Egypt..which he referred to as his Hellenic Empire. Upon his deathbed his officers asked who should rule his Hellenic Empire, Alexander stated "the better one of you". Thus, they all fought until 3 were left. The first of the 3 ruled Macedonia and Greece as the Hellenic Empire. The second ruled Iran and Iraq as the Persian Empire, and the final ruled Egypt (actually the Greek Ruler of Egypt married an egyptian woman and they had a daughter which would become a famous Queen.. her name was Cleopatra). Anyway, that is history as I have learned it in a classroom on the Eastern Coast of America (where I have lived my entire life). Apparently, Alexander was Greek and Macedonian, because he was born in Macedonia but when the two countries were considered one, thus it is also viewed as Greece. |
| f9 | Apparently, many of you do not know Alexander's history? ....But he did conquer Greece and Macedonia?.... Where and in what time he have conquer Macedonia?Nonsens! ....which he referred to as his Hellenic Empire... Where are you have info from Alex for this nonsens,-Hellenism is post product of Alex long time after his dead-. Hellenism, the term Johan Gustaf Droysen gave to this era, is such a narrow cultural belt of history that its usage is not only misleading and inappropriate but it also distorts and minimizes the greatness of the ancient Macedonians! ...his officers asked who should rule his Hellenic Empire... Same,he have newer asked with term " Hellenic empire",it was nonsens to do that because there are clear info from Hesiod who are Hellens,and they have been a piss of smoll shit in Macedonian Empire most of the time on the wrong side in the fightings. For almost 3 centuries after Alexander, it was his successors that carried the symbols and the name of the Macedonian Empire ...Alexander stated "the better one of you"... Your transcription is faulty! so and your conclusions: Thus, they all fought until 3 were left. The first of the 3 ruled Macedonia and Greece as the Hellenic Empire. No -Antipater like older become Regent of Macedonian empire. His son Cassander in that tradition have been in duty to look for Alex son and Roxana who came in Macedonia to live. ...The second ruled Iran and Iraq as the Persian Empire... Nonsens-there are no Persian Empire after Alex victory over Darius3. What you are reffering is Selucid Empire,comeing from one of the names of Macedonian sartrp in charge of that part of the empire. Sartrp have been something like loose governor from Texas state. ...and the final ruled Egypt (actually the Greek Ruler of Egypt married an egyptian woman and they had a daughter which would become a famous Queen.. her name was Cleopatra... Another nonsens-This ruler have been Ptolomy -Macedonian sartrp for southern part of the empire and he was been Macedonian.He have lot of daughters-famous one with her tricky nature Alcinoe second .Cleopatra have been Ptolomy relative but it is not daughter,She have lived on the end of the Ptolomy dynasty ,long time after dead of her Grand,grand,grand..father Ptolomy. ...Apparently, Alexander was Greek and Macedonian... Where are he have declared his etnic and national filings?His etno-cultural backgraund is from Philip 2Macedonian and Olympia Epiruvian princes.Taking male traditional line and dinastic right he can be only considered Macedonian. ....but when the two countries were considered one, thus it is also viewed as Greece... Another nonsens-Macedonia and Greece have been newer considered one. Macedonia have been Macedonia . Macedonia was the first large territorial state with an effective centralized political, military and administrative structure to come into being on the continent of Europe and Greece have not existed in that time. In that time have been many states like Atina,Sparta,there havent been state Greece at all. After Battle of Chaeronea these city states were to make a common peace and alliance with one another, and constitute themselves into a federal Hellenic League. Simultaneously, the league was to form a separate alliance with Macedonia, though Macedonia itself would not be a league member but Macedonian kings will be their "Hegemon". Philip appointed himself "Commander of the Greeks", as he was already commander of the conquered Illyrians and Thracians. The Greeks, like the Illyrians and Thracians before them, were now obligated to support and obey the commands of the Macedonian king. Anyway, that is history as I have learned it in a classroom on the Eastern Coast of America (where I have lived my entire life)[:o)] Go in your classroom and say to your teacher to shut a fuc.k up ! [:D][8)][8)][8)][^] |
| Strelec | Rina, this lesson was 'free of charge'...:) |
| Thunder from down under | bravo f9 |
| asal | quote:Greece and Macedonia were not two countries, because Greece exists since 19th century. The first "hellenic" country was Macedonia. And I say "hellenic", because everything that is found from this period speaks about "hellenic" culture. It is possible that at the beginning the macedonians were not a hellenic tribe, but then they adopted the hellenic culture. |
| Strelec | really!? |
| fio | äå÷êîâî ãè óòíàë áðçèíèòå :) |
| f9 | Realy ASAL[?]. I mean-I will not teach every ASSHOLE on the net.[8D] Go back in school,I mean real school....[:)] AND DONT COME BACK UNTILL YOU KNOW FOR WHAT WE ARE TALKING HERE. |
| graf | abre it is so simply, Alexander the great was macedonian. thats it. nothing more. the only thing that the grrk are famous for is for being peders ahahahah |
| Thunder from down under | quote:They dont call him Alexandar of Macedonia if there was a dilema about his identity he did conquer greece but not Macedonia ,does not make sense one to conquer his own country why would he conquer Macedonia when than was his own |
| graf | thats right, u tell him thunder |
| f9 | O.K.! Hellen is a coin wich can be used and missused with what so ever means.But there are in all that nonsens some rules bring out from the facts.And these facts are rules for every concius human flesh exept these famous Macedonian neighbours-A.B.G.S. Hellenes became the name of all Greeks. But in mythical times Hellenes were those who dwelt about Alope and Trachis, and held Phthia and Hellas (territories in Thessaly), land of fair women, as they say. The people from this Thessalian region, called Myrmidons and Hellenes, sailed against Troy under the command of Achilles. The eponymous ancestor of the Hellenes is Hellen 1, son either of Deucalion 1 (the man who survived the Flood), or of Zeus and Pyrrha 1. Deucalion 1 is one of the Three Main Ancestors, and his descendants founded and ruled mainly Thessalian cities. The sons of Hellen 1 were Aeolus 1, Dorus 1 and Xuthus 1 [for Xuthus 1 see Achaea, Ionia, and Ion 1]. The descendants of Hellen 1 became kings in several places: his grandson Deion ruled in Phocis (region bordering the Gulf of Corinth, west of Boeotia), and Deion's grandson was Arcisius, king of Ithaca and Odysseus' grandfather. Another grandson of Hellen 1 was Cretheus 1, king of Iolcus and father of Pheres 1, who reigned in Pherae and became father of Admetus 1, husband of Alcestis. Yet another grandson of Hellen 1, Amphictyon, became king of Athens, but this was a short-lived dynasty. A granddaughter of Hellen 1, Pisidice 1, is mother of Actor 1, king of Phthia before the times of Peleus and Achilles. Salmoneus, another grandson of Hellen 1, became king of Elis in the Peloponnessus. |
| f9 | Thyia 2 is a daughter of Deucalion 1 & Pyrrha 1 Thyia 2 and Zeus have: son=Macedon 1 The district of Macedonia and Macedonians takes its name from Macedon. (Hes.CWE.3. ) son=Magnes 1 was father, among other children, of Polydectes 1, who colonized Seriphus and there became King, fell in love with Danae and sent Perseus 1 to bring the head of Medusa 1. (Apd.1.3.3, 1.7.3, 1.9.6; Hes.CWE.3; Pau.6.21.11.) |
| f9 | Pandora 2 consorted with Zeus and gave birth to Latinus 3, after whom the Latins were called, and to Graecus, after whom those who followed Hellenic customs were called Greeks. In Ancient times there are CLEAR DISTINCTION OF INPOSIBILITY OF ANY MISCHIVE BETWEEN MACEDONIANS,MAGNESIANS,HELLENS,GREEKS,LATINS ETC.. THEY ARE ALL EQUAL DELIVERED FROM DEUCALION AND PYRRHA-THESE ARE SAME PEOPLE DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE UNDER THE NAME AND DEEDS OF NOAH. |
| tnt | hahaha, go to the "macedonian" bulgaria and ask people what are they. i know people from the region and believe me if you tell them that they are part of macedonian country they will torn you appart. they are more bulgarians that i am because their patriotizm is endless!!! |
| tnt | i am from sofia. my mother is from dupnica. its bulgarian city next to pirin or what you call bulgarian macedonia. if she is macedoniam why does she say that she is bulgarian? my grand parent as well. |
| OooOo | Kolku shto se sekjavam jas, ovoj tnt e prv Bugar shto vodi normalna diskusija, za razlika od site drugi Bugari koj doagjale tuka da ne ubeduvaat deka nie sme ustvari Bugari. |
| MakedonskoMomice | i have just been reading these pages and have decided it would be best that everyone agrees that Macedonia is the best and if anyone wants to deny that(especially the greeks), then they can go and tell someone who cares, cause this country don't have time for losers like that! |
| Maverik | quote:where did you get the idea that we want to claim some teritory. The fact that the pirin and aegean macedonia are historicaly belonging to Macedonia, doesn't mean that in this time and the present political, demografical, and geographical condition, we want them back together. It is certainly a good dream, but realisiticaly even if we did ask for them, we'll never get them. Macedonia making claims to pirin and aegean part has the same potential of comming true as Bulgaria claiming the teritory of Macedonia all the way to Ohrid. Simply it will never happen, and the people are avare of that. |
| Ceki | quote:Sad, but true. Only when we will be recognized as descendants of ancient Macedonians through the whole world( in some countrys i think we already are) , only then can we hope for our territory to return where it belongs. |
| tnt | exuse me for posting the same comment as in the history forum, but it gives answer to your questions in this one. I’ve been reading the comments on this forum and the only think i see is pure, blind hate. History is a complicated thing. Everyone takes the 25% that are undeniable truth, because it comes from actual sources, and then mixes it with politics. In order for all historians to agree on a claim, they need something called evidence because “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. Macedonia is a new country. Even if we take all that you claim for true, the country Macedonia did not exist for last 600 years. It is common for young countries to use history in order to unify their population. Make them more proud and patriotic. As examples you can look at Albania and Croatia. The population of both countries is extremely patriotically. Your politics use history to make you proud and patriotic. According to you , everyone around you stole something from you. You take all the great figures in history and you claim they are Macedonians. Well in addition I can claim that Christopher collumb and Amerigo Vespucci were also Macedonians and that Alaska was once Macedonian territory. Its very easy to claim, but let me repeat myself “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. My mother and my grand parents are from Pirin Macedonia. If you tell them that they have something to do with Macedonian state they will laugh their ass off. It would be the same if I claim that because I was born in sofia I am member of shopian population. In the 1980 Serbian propaganda claimed that spopians are different population from other Bulgarians and they should have country of their own. Serbians believed in that and just 20 years later this claim sounds ridiculous even for Serbians. I don’t know why you decided that Bulgaria is hated around the world! Maybe you compare Bulgaria to Albania. Well let me give you a simple example. The above joke, from user “highlander” is very funny to you because someone stabs someone else in the back. Moreover, he is not man enough to look him in the face and do whatever he attends. Well friend, that is something very typical for the Albanians. There all culture is based on that. So don’t make parallels between Bulgarians and Albanians because i am not like this all people i know are not like this too. Indeed, you have more similarities to Albanians than i do so making parallels is totally improper. And as conclusion, if Bulgaria is so bad and hated country, tell me then why in 2003 it was visited by 228 611 Macedonian tourists? (http://www.news.bg/article.php?cid=20&pid=0&aid=135486) This statistic is only for people that stayed more than 5 days in Bulgaria for tourist reason. Nevertheless, Bulgarian universities are full with Macedonian students, but probably they really hate it and they stay there just to loose their time. |
| Maverik | quote:simple man, bulgarian girls are so easy, that is why there are so many macedonian tourists on the Cernoto more and the universitites too, they are easier to learn and to buy the exams. Much cheaper also. see hate doesn't have to do anything with it. |
| tnt | maveric, just this last summer i got laid with two macedonian girls on the black sea. Would you call them easy as well? what are then the polish or the german girls? Probably spermbags! and from american girls its easier to get blowjob than kiss. This is not an argument, moreover it sounds ridiculous. and i doubt that you ever got laid with bulgarian girl! |
| Christian | quote:da ili ne tnt?odgovori pa ke praam muabet so tebe. a toa so poljacite,germancite i amerikancite se lesni za u krevet,lol soooooooo true. makedoncite odat vo bugarija na skoluvanje zaradi teskata ekonomska situacija.Poevtino im se faka na makedoncite da ucat vo bugarija otkolku da ucat vo Republika Makedonija. toa so velis deka ima mnogu buagri nacionalisti vo pirin e tocno, ista politika kako i grcite imate,teski nacionalisti da uvezuvate vo Makedonskite delovi za da se plasi makedonskoto naselenie od vas. Ovde vo Anglija sretnav mnogu grci od egejska makedonija i pogodi so? site imaat poteklo od azija(delot so so turcija si go trampaa)nemoj mnogu stranska propaganda ovde da vodis,oti veruvam deka brzo ke te baniraat.Zatoa ti odis odokolu.I posledno, makedonija ke vleze vo EU koga problemot so MAkedonija i makedonskata nacija ke se resi so sosedite.dotogas nikoj nema ni da pomisli da ne pusti vo EU oti oci ke si iskopame. |
| Christian | ne mi odgovori na prasanjeto, izglea ne go vide[;)]
ama eve uste ednas da go postavam pa da vidime so so covek pravime muabet
quote:DA ili NE? |
| tnt | christian, umreo sum da si razgovatam s tebe da znaesh . please christian i need to talk to you sooooo much ..... pleeese talk to me. abe ti za sharon stoun li se imash. i am out. |
| Ceki | Goodbye, enjoy in NATO and EU, and will you even remember us, unworthy neighbours of yours, when you will be famous and strong . [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] |
| 1republika | Namesto da se raspravame za prosti raboti koj e vo pravo koj vo krivo okolu istorijata podobro e da razvivame dobri sosedski odnosi. jas sum golem patriot no ne znam zosto morame da se prepucuvame i dokazuvame so nasite sosedi so grubi zborovi. mnogu e lesno da se zboruva so jazikot na omrazata no naucete da sakate, da prostavate, da ziveete vo ljubov i so sosedite. jas imam mnogu drugari od Bulgarija ovde vo Anglija i od niv ne sum videl nitu edno zlo, nitu tia postanaa Makedonci nitu jas Bugarin. no zboruvame mnogu slicen jazik i delime mnogu zaednicki raboti.mojot sovet do vas e da ja ostavete politikata nasrana zatoa sto sekoj ja izvrtuva a toa sozdava omraza kaj narodite. spored moeto viduvanje na istorijata site Balkanski narodi delat slicna istorija i sudbina pogotovo vo borbata za osloboduvanje od Otomanskoto ropstvo. da ve potsetam moi Makedoncinja, jazikot so Bugarite ni e skoro ist, a od Albancite i Grcite nemozeme da gi razbirame, toj fakt zboruva mnogu ako bideme realni! nesme isti no nesme nitu pak premnogu razliciti! zatoa bi sakal da gi vidam Makedoncite i Bugarite kako dva bratski narodi koj ce pokazat primer vo Evropa kako da se zivee zaedno, a toa e mozno ako se saka, zatoa otvrletea omrazata Makedonci i Bugari i zivejte zaedno![:)] |
| Christian | quote:da tocno taka,site dobija ona sto sakaa osven makedoncite i avtonomna obedineta makedonija. You do the maths. |
| Ceki | quote:Nimi da gi vikam braka? Abe jas tebe ne znam, dal da te vikam brat ili ne, po to sto napisa. A ne nimi da gi vikam braka. quote:Da ama nasiot se vika Makedonski jazik. I dodeka tie isto taka ne go vikaat, zaboravi na bratstvo i edinstvo. |
| protivpropaganda | quote:tnt, Have you ever heard of propaganda??? Do you know what that is? How easily it can influence a nation, let alone an individual? Listen, go look in the mirror. If you have dark skin, slanted eyes, a big eagle-beaked shaped nose also thick hair that sticks out like a porcupine's needles then you are most definitely a bulgarian. If not then you are of an European sort which may only mean that you are an indoctrinated bulgarian. You can find the answers you need for this in many places, but one sticks out as primary and that is your need to tell everybody (keeping the results of the propaganda alive) that you are something that you probably are not, especially to us, those that stand for what you probably are but because of a long propaganda campaign have been indoctrinated to think otherwise. The truth may be that you are just a product of propaganda that your ancestors have unknowingly accepted and to acknowledge this is to wash out a history of lies which have, since your birth, acknowledged you as a person which is a very hard thing to do, believe me. It takes a lot of effort and positive energy to accomplish this. By the way, there are individuals who fit the discription I have mentioned above here in Macedonia. One of them is a dear friend. Try to tell him that he is a Bulgarian and not a Macedonian. Mildly put, and I will quote him "He will pluck out your eye`s and piss in your brain" end of quote. Just remember that only because an occupying force of Hunish descent had formed an organised government on this teritory are you and others called bulgarians. It is just because the soveriegn at that time and the dinasty he started are you, what you are right now. |
| deni | [img]http://www.geocities.com/macedonian_pridemk/protest04.jpg[/img] |
| 1republika | Razlikata pomedju tebe i mene Ceki e sto ti zboruvas so jazikot na omrazata a jas pokusuvam da zboruvam so jazikot na ljubovta. Ako mislis deka si pogolem patriot si se izlagal. moite predci se borea protiv Turcite i zaginaa za Makedonija na Meckin Kamen, ama sakam da ti kazam deka so omrazata do nikade ne stignuvas! Jas ne sum samo Makedonoljubec tuku i covekoljubec i stojam za ona sto go napisav!Jas nesum nitu Grkoman,nitu Srboman, nitu Bugarofil i nemora da me vikas brat ama imam pravo da gi sakam i pocituvam site ljudje na ovaa planeta a ne samo Makedoncite! Mojot sovet do tebe e nemoj da sees omraza, toa e najlesno, pocni da zivees so ljubov i razbiranje!
Bas bi sakal da mi kazes sto tolku si videl loso od Bugarite licno ti sto tolku si se okomil na niv! Samo da te potsetam deka Makedoncite ja koristat Bugarija za mnogu nesta, najpovece za odmor i za studiranje? bas bi sakal da znam sto imas da mu kazes na 20.000 Makedonci koj apliciraa za Bugarski pasos? dali postanaa Bugarofili? ziveeme vo drugi okolnosi i nemozes povece da gi gledas rabotite so ocite na starata istorija!
quote:Da ama nasiot se vika Makedonski jazik. I dodeka tie isto taka ne go vikaat, zaboravi na bratstvo i edinstvo. |
| 1republika | Tocno e taka Christian kako sto napisa, site dobija svoi drzavi i aftonomija samo nas ne razdelile ama za toa nie Makedoncite sme najpovece krivi, zatoa sto si gi kopame ocite eden so drug, ljubomorime, zaviduvame i se dokazuvame koj e popameten. samo eden izlez ima za Makedonskiot narod a toa da se dlaboko pokae za svoite greski i da pocne da se saka sebesi i svojata zemja. Koga ce pocneme da se sakame i pocituvame samite, ce pocneme da gi sakame i drugite okolu nas, a toa spored mene e preduslov za sekoj ponatamosen napredok! ona sto mozeme da go napravime e da go socuvame i ona parce zemja sto ni ostana oti i toa mozat da ni go zemat ako se ponasame predavnicki kako i do sega! promena na ime, promena na zname, sto uste ne! pocnete da se sakate Makedonci a ne da se predavate, mrazite i zaviduvate eden na drug!
quote: |
| dejan | [quote]Originally posted by tnt
I don’t know why you decided that Bulgaria is hated around the world! Maybe you compare Bulgaria to Albania. And as conclusion, if Bulgaria is so bad and hated country, tell me then why in 2003 it was visited by 228 611 Macedonian tourists? (http://www.news.bg/article.php?cid=20&pid=0&aid=135486) This statistic is only for people that stayed more than 5 days in Bulgaria for tourist reason. [quote] You know not many countries in this world hate Albania, they pity it for some perculiar reason unknown to me. For example i was in Zurich (Switzerland if you didn't know) with my mother when i was last in Europe, and this lady at the airport asked my mother, 'oh where are you from' and my mother told her. then the lady started to go on about how she really felt sorry for the Albanians, about what is happening to them. You see.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Why are there Macedonian tourists in Bulgaria? lele....well i wonder...maybe because Bulgaria happens to be a close neighbour, geographically to Macedonia! Maybe that's why! Or maybe because you also border with the Black Sea, maybe that's why! If Macedonia was a neighbour with France, do you think the people in Macedonia would go to France for a holiday, or just...stay put not going anywhere? Yes they would go to France for a holiday! You people are funny you know. |
| Christian | quote:te razbiram so sakas da kazes, ja lugeto gi gledam spored toa kako se odnesuvaat,da bides od bugarija ili grcija ili albanija ili tunguzija mene ama ic ne mi smeta.Ako si covek sprema mene i ja ke bidam covek sprema tebe.Megutoa samo sakam da ti kazam kakva e situacijata doma vo MKD. za rabotite da trgnat na podobro treba dvete strani to put effort into it. Dzabe e samo ako sme nie sme dobri a oni celo vreme nas od pozadi..... zatoa probaj i razberi gi makite na makedoncite pa posle praj muabet za situacijata. I jas sum makedoncite da se obedinat a ne da se delat. Uste nesto, znaes li ti zosto makedoncite zimaat bugarski pasos? i znaes li kolku se odniv etnicki makedonci? |
| Ceki | Gledaj 1republika, jas ziveam vo slovenija i imam tuka mnogu dobri prijateli i zatoa ne misli deka za mene se samo Makedoncite tie sto se dobri ili ne znam sto. Ama FAKT e deka slovenija nas ne priznava pod ustavno ime( iako istoriata uste ne e ucat kako bi trebalo, ama i to poleka ke dojt). A tie "braka" bugari i srbi i grci nas ne ne priznavaat pod nikakvo ime. Ne gi mrazam site, ama dodeka TIE NAS ke ne mrazat, dotogas i jas ke gi mrazam. Mene seedno mi e dali od nekogo predcite se borele za ilindenskata republika ili bea predadci. Mene bitno mi e koj e covekot deneska i sto misli, ako e covekot za Makedonija ili protiv. I ako negovite predci bea pro-bugari, so to nemam problem. Nikoj ne mu e kriv, ako ima takvi predci, bitno e deka covekot saka da go popravi to sto go napraa negovite predci. Jas tebe NE te navikuvam pro-bugar, brat, ne misli taka. Ama samo mislam deka nije trebame da pocekame da ni se resat problemite so imeto, znameto, jazikot, ... i posle da zborvime za niv sto sakame. Znam deka e idnina vo megusebna sorabotka, a ne taka da sme nie pod nimi, ama SO nimi, da sme ednakopravni. I za to ni uste trebit vreme. |
| dimkoska | Priznavam, ne se razbiram od politika. Vi pozeluvam na site srekni majski praznici. Docitanje po praznicite. |
| graf | no dj_poo, this hrrrk is not one of gods children. he is from the devil !!!!! |
| BorisVM | quote:Well, if Macedonia is yours, keep it. I fail to see how though. Republic of Macedonia, ISO code MK, country code 389. The US Postal Service, a US Government Institution, refers to our country as Macedonia, Republic of. Do you see a pattern developing here? The problem with the name is all of that proprerty that was taken from the Macedonians that were for a lack of better word "kicked out of the country." That is the real reason why you as a country are so afraid to recognice the existence of a sovereign nation. But not to worry. We will get there. I wonder what will happen if we made it illegal for your countrymen, like Veropulous to own and run any business in Macedonia? As far as the invasion, read the previous post about the Turkish Army. Well organized and oiled machine that will gladly jump in the fray, not because they like us too much, but because they hate you more. Something to think about. |
| Canmak | quote:Actually the first pyramid or should I say the oldest pyramid ever found is off the coast of japan......dating to 8000 bc roughly 5000 years before the pyramids in egypt and the one in argos which was built roughly the same time as the Step Pyramid at Saqqara in Egypt. |
| graf | u c what i mean the grrk is stupid. Canmak u are very smart man ahahah |
| n/a | quote:You are a total DICKHEAD!!!! I mean who the F**K are you calling a prositute you MALAKA!!! I think your mother comes from a whorehouse and I bet you don't know who your father really is!!!I bet it is a big fat GRRRK with a very small penis!!![:D] And a far as why I live in Australia, well I was actually born here you F**khead but I am very proud of my MAKEDONSKI heritage you total C**ksucker!!!! Anyways what bussiness has a F**ken GRRK faggot ass got on the Macedonian forum[?] Obviously you can't handle that there is a Macedonian forum and the fact that we don't speak your F**ked up lingo where you actually have to spit on the person that you are talking to (THTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHTHT)[:D] I suggest that you go to one of the GRRRK forums where someone might actually give a sh*t about what you might have to say!!!![}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)] P.S HAVE A F**KEN FANTASTIC DAY GRRRK!!!![^][^][^][^][^][:D][:D][:D] |
| n/a | P.S I THINK THAT YOU ARE ASHAMED OF YOUR HERATAGE AND YOU WISH TTHAT YOU ARE A MAKEDONEC, WELL LET ME TELL YOU A LITTLE SECRET, JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE JOINED OUR FORUM IS DOES NOT ACTUALLY MAKE YOU MACENONIAN!! BUT YOU CAN ALWAYS DREAM CAN'T YOU !!!!!!YOU WISH GRRRRRK!!!! |
| Canmak | Alexanders tutor was aristotle but does that prove anything? Aristotle was not even a citizen of Athens and the only reason for that was cause his heritage was Macedonian. Now if Macedonians were greeks why the distinction between the two...how come one is a valued member and the other is not furthere more just because you have a tutor that is the best in the world doesn't mean your heritage is one or another..there are millions of children that have teachers from all over the world, heck I even have had italian, indian, chinese, jamaican, english teachers does that make me one of them now....your arguements are with out thought. You must ask yourself is why was this greek propaganda machine turned on to the highest of degrees when the repulblic of macedonia decalered independence? where were the greek out cries prior to that? There always was a republic of Macedonia in the Country that was called Yugoslavia..and there is still a region in Bulgaria that is called Macedonia but now the greeks fear that for some reason the Macedonians in greece will demand independence ( Highly unlikely) but the greek gov't is trying its hardest to make sure it doesn't happen. What you are trying to do is to claim someones heritage that is not yours....no matter how hard you greeks try the people of the Republic of Macedonia are known as Macedonians and speak the Macedonian language and the whole world recognises them as Macedonians..they look at Greece they thing greek they look at the Repbulic of Macedonian and think Macedonian. You lost that battle and it is so 5 minutes ago so you must as well give up trying to make yourself feel good. People through out the world call them Macedonians for that is what the people from that country (Macedonia) are. Where ever you go in the world and you say Macedonia they think of the country of Macedonia (it helped being in the news a while back) they do not think of greece....but I understand you must still try no matter how hard it is for you to accept but don't worry I accept you as a greek that whishes they could have Macedonian heritage. |
| psevdonim | aha, sega razbiram. Slovenite se preselile od mediteranskiot del i otisle zad karpatite, pa potoa vo anticka makedonija? ili obratno, slovenite se od anticka makedonija? epa vo pred anticko vreme(pred da ima bilo kakvi tragi od anticka makedonija i grcija) ljugeto nemale aber od brodovi. sto toa znaci? Sakash da dokazesh deka mediteranskite narodi go preprivale protokot pomegu turcija i evropa(bosfor mislam)? Jas ne mislam taka. Edinstven pat vo toa vreme im bil preku predelot pomegu crno more i ona golemo rusko 'ezero'(so solena voda, poranesno 'more'). Toa znaci deka nikoj nemozel da se seta pomegu mala azija i balkanot? i seuste drzi tvoeto tvrdenje deka antickite makedonci se 'slavik'? |
| mafisKumA | Legal you are excused for the momentary laps of intellect as I am certain that this was written in the wwweeeeeeee hours of the morning whilst most of us were blissfully snoring away. [^] |
| HanAvitohol | 1.Find out the exact name of your grand-grand father! I bet 80% that it will not be Greek, Serbian or "ancient" Macedonian, but purely Bulgarian Slavic name. 2. It is a well-known fact that every nation on the Balkans has provided Australia, US and Canada with immigrants at the turn of the 20th century and later. Find me one "macedonian" immigrant who escaped from Makedonia before 1913 and he or his decendants claim to be decendents of Alexander the Great instead of Bulgarians. 3. The Blakan nations have fought between themselves for centuries. Show me an armed confict or was betweem Bul;garia and Macedonia. |
| element | quote:you can´t atack Macedonia because you haven´t anythink to do in Miacedonia your problem is Turkey both modern army can start a war like 1921-1922 |
| AaaAa | Krijes7, what you were taught at school was what's historically most acceptable. The Macedonians of today are a mixture of the people living in this area prior to the sixth century and the newly arriving Slavic tribes. The question of whether the Slavs moved to this territory is not a question, I believe that is a very well known fact; whom did they mix with is what is causing the concerns. The point is that the Macedonians of today do feel that they have ancient Macedonian blood in them, which has been backed up with some recent relevant genetic findings. Everything else is politics. The Greeks not being willing to give up the fight because of tourist gains, and some Macedonians not willing to accept that in all actuality they are Slavs too, due to either their ‘bad’ experiences in Yugoslavia and the attempt to disconnect themselves from anything Yugoslav, or their blind stubbornness toward the Greek attack that have resulted in huge irritation among us, the Macedonians of today. The use of the term Slavic (Macedonians) is not a mistake, however, it becomes irritation when it’s used to identify only the Macedonians and not the Slavic Russians, Slavic Croats, Slavic Serbs, etc. We are all Slavs, however we carry the heritage left to us by different tribes, and that is what differentiates us . After all nobody calls the Greeks, Hellenic Greeks, it's not necessary cause there are no other Greeks but Hellenic. There are no other Macedonians but Slavic, the Macedonians in Greece are Slavic too, something that the Greeks would not admit for some reason. But it's not what they think, it's what those ppl feel. And if you go to thessaloniki or anywhere in northern Greece you will get the answer, that I know :) |
| gisot | HanAvitohol? Kako imas ti hrabrost da se kazes deka si bugarin ( aj da ne te narekuvam tatar) i uste da treses gluposti za Makedonija i Makedoncite. Pa coveku neciviliziran , edinstvena rabota koja e export od tvojata tatarska "civilizacija" se piratski kompakt diskovi, kradeni kineski filmovi i slicni kradeni sranja... Moja preporaka ti e da se skriesh vo nekoe kjoshe, da si zemash lekarstvata redovno (4,5 pati dnevno) i da se nadevash deka vo naredniot zivot ke se rodish kako Makedonec za da mozesh konecno da prozivees mizerniot ti zivot kako gord Makedonec. Ajt! |
| mafisKumA | graf, and everyone else for that matter, why do you even bother acknowledging their posts by replying to them [?] [:p] |
| graf | what do u mean >? |
| ILjo | Sloveni.. izmasani so makedonci.. vo sekoj slucaj - Aleksandar ne bil Grk, nego anticki Makedonec. A toa sto veruvale vo isti bogovi (neznam za sigurno) ne znaci deka se istiot narod. Pola svet veruva vo Isus, i sakas da kaes deka site se ist narod? Isto e i so Buda i Alah.. sto dokaz e toa? |
| krijes7 | but i thought in school, and i was in my elemetary school in yugoslavia, 15years ago.. and there we learned that macedonians (who today live in macedonia) are from the same root as croats, serbs, bulgarians, slovenians. that they all belong to south slavic. so that is confusing for me because i thought that was the truth. i thought todays macedonians are slavic. do all macedonians believe that they are descendants of old macedonians who lived here in b.c. times? and that they have no connection to slavic roots who came here after? |
| Thunder from down under | HanAvitohol, How did the Turks in bulgaria end up with bulgarians surnames? Was that on their own freewill? |
| StormChild | HanAvitohol [}:)].... Just two words ......"PROOVE IT" [8D] |
| vmro | ej momci daj bre ne spij te , izbrishete toa postot na toj TATAROT! u picku mater veke, samo nie sve neshto tolerirame nekogo, sve nie demokratija terame, i samo nas ne napagaat i pravat parce, a da probash na niv neshto da im objasnish si go jadel stapot. Vo slucajov, na nekoj tatarski ili srpski ili grcki forum, odma ke te baniraat i site postovi ke ti gi izbrishat (ako stignesh da napishesh poveke od eden) a nie samo cutime i trpime ajt vishe u kurac!!!!!!! P.S - ako nekoj se nafatil da bide moderator neka bide do kraj ... |
| dimkoska | Moe mislenje e deka vasiot bugarski e poslicen so ukrainskiot nego so makedonskiot jazik, gospodine HanAvitohol. Ako gi otfrlime site etnoloski istrazuvanja na strana, ke vi kazam ednostavno, jas sum makedonka zatoa sto moite baba i dedo mi go kazuvaa toa sekoj den dodeka bea zivi. A tie toa go znaea od nivnite baba i dedo. Gledam deka ne ste ekspert po etnologija ili istotija, a i nikoj od nas ovde ne e. Jas gledam so respekt na vasata etnicka pripadnost, ve molam za istoto, respekt kon mojata makedonska etnicka pripadnost. Ona sto vie go izlozuvate pogore, mnogu sovremeni Bugari go narekuvaat Bugarski nacionalizam. |
| ozonce | Mislam deka lugeto koi se nadvor od Makedonija treba poveke da pishuvaat i kazuvaat za nashite p[redci. Toa bi ni pomognalo mnogu! |
| ozonce | Chestitki za sin ti slasa. Golem pozdrav od srceto na Makedonija do Vas. |
| deni | Macedonia never was , and never will be greek .Ancient Greece ???? History doesn't recognize an impery called Anciet greece ? HELAS ?? what the fuck. A new Alexander will be born some day and will kick your stinky asses again |
| patriotka | SMRT za grcite i albancite! koj i ebi, ne nije. |
| deni | We know that Alexander accepted and spread the standard koine Greek as a spoken language for his multi-ethnic empire, the only international language on which the whole Mediterranean world had already communicated even prior to the conquest of the Macedonians (just like English is international language today). Alexander was smart enough to keep this international Greek language for the Persians, Egyptians, Jews and all the nations of his empire to communicate. Forcing all those people to learn now a new foreign Macedonian language would have only provoked an additional hatred and multi-ethnic resistance for the Macedonian occupation of Asia, Egypt, and Greece, which the Macedonians obviously wanted to avoid. Unlike the Roman Empire, there was no single powerful centralized Macedonian Empire, but three main Macedonian kingdoms (Macedonia, Asia, Egypt) which were fragile and in conflict occasionally among each other, and the Macedonians needed such language standardization to help them maintain their power. That of course, does not mean that although the Macedonians, Persians, Egyptians, Jews, now communicated in Greek, that they all turned into Greeks, just like the African nations did not turn into French and English, just because of their usage of those two languages to communicate among themselves. What is for certain however, is that Alexander spoke Macedonian with his own Macedonian troops and used Greek in addressing the Asians and Greeks. After all, the Macedonians were his kinsmen (precisely the way he calls them), not the Greeks. The ancient sources specifically refer to Macedonian as a language and not as a dialect of Greek, and Alexander himself specifically calls the Macedonian language - "our native language". During the trial of Philotas, Alexander himself clearly distinguishes his native Macedonian language from the Greek language which was used at the Macedonian court as well as a second language in diplomacy, a fact we find in the Philotas trial (Q. Curtius Rufus). The conclusion is clear - that the Macedonian kings admired a foreign culture (Greek in this case) does not prove they were Greek. Similarly, the Russian czars admired the French culture and French was even spoken on the Russian court. The African nations also use international English language to communicate among themselves. That of course does not prove that the Russian czars were French, nor that the Africans were English. |
| NARCIS` | deni na koj se metna volku bistar ..:) |
| deni | na dedo mi lambe on na deset godini cela azbuka ja znaeshe |
| vmro | Izvinete moja greshka, ovde ne ni imalo moderatori. shto znaci toa P.S - ot se odnesuva na adminite. |
| slasa | Sto e smeswno bre Graf ova ne e za smeenje http://www.vmro-mnm.com/ Makedonija na Makedoncite |
| graf | Boris I think that the grrk is in love with you (love hate realtionship) [:D][:D][:D][:D]. I think we should subscribe him to a couple of spamming groups [:D][:D][:D] Graf in Da Selo !!! |
| Lapotica | What a wanka..[:D] ..FOXXY.. |
| Legal-Eagle | I suggest you reply to that mail and quote Thucydides The Peloponnesian War. It is in this book that he makes reference to Philip and to Alexander as being uncivilised and barbaric "MACEDONS". Hence rendering their statement that Alexander or Philip were Greek or of Greek Heritage absolute bullshit. There are many more references in Greek History, by reputable Greek writers and historians that make reference to MACEDONIANS are a entire culture/race in itself with its own claim to fame... but how quickly they forget. It is these writers that they claim to be the greatest scholars in history! We know what we are, and we dont need someone with an identity crises to dictate to us ... after all ... who are they ... they call themselves athenians, spartans, hellians, greeks .... so who in the hell are they really? or dont they know? what a bunch of hypocrites!!!!!!![:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!] You are all, Hic, entitled to MY, Hic, opinion! |
| graf | mate just tell that grrk to go and get fukedd Graf in Da Selo !!! |
| StormChild | Those historical testimonies are strengthened by the information of N.Oikonomides about the existence of more then 5,000 writings in Macedonian, collected within the frames of the Greek program KERA, but not published in order not to be of use to the "State of Skopje", referring to the Republic of Macedonia. Oikonomides fully denied allegations of the scientists, that written material in Macedonian had not been preserved. Since they write about the Macedonians and their language, and define their ethnic affiliation, they had to take into consideration the serious rebuke and indications of N. Oikonomides (N. Oikonomodes, Book Review, History Department, University of Chicago, 1988, p. 121-6). By the way, only as information and without any suggestion let it be known that at his first visit to Greece after this was published, Mr. Oikonomides died suddenly, and the Greek authorities explained that as alcohol abuse. But even if (the key word here is IF) the Macedonians might have spoken a form of Greek dialect, it still does not make them Greeks, and it does not nullify the proofs that say the opposite: "Let us again look at the Jews - those who in the 1930s were living in Eastern Europe. Their names were Hebrew with a slight admixture of German and Slav elements; their alphabet and their sacred writings were Hebrew. Yet their vocabulary was largely, and the structure of their vernacular language almost entirely, that of a German dialect." 10 As a precious survival of a pro-nationalist world, they are of special interest in such comparisons. One wonders what scholars would have made of them, if they had been known only through tombstones and sacred objects. In any case, interesting though the precise affinities of Ancient Macedonian must be to the linguistic specialist, they are again of very limited interest to the historian. Linguistic facts as such, just like archaeological finds as such, are only some of the pieces in the puzzle that the historian tries to fit together. In this case, unfortunately, as every treatment of the problem nowadays seems to show, discussion has become bedeviled by politics and modern linguistic nationalism: the idea that a nation is essentially defined by a language and that, conversely, a common language means a common nationhood - which is patently untrue for the greater part of human history and to a large extent even today The allegation, groundless again, that the Macedonian population was not Slavic at all, is a great and complex historical question. Whether the thesis that the Slavs decided to come down to the Balkans much later, which is defined according to Greenberg's writings as a "nomadic-rural settlement" is true, is again an unconfirmed fact. We find confirmation of this thesis (especially) in the writings of G. S. Grinevich, dealing with the subject of pre - Slavic literacy (Genadij Stanistavlovich Grinevich, World History Department, Russian Physical Society, Moscow, 1994). The decoding and the linguistic coding results that Grinevich had revealed show that the pre-Slavic literacy existed much before the creation of the letters and coding of the Slavic language by the brothers Sts. Cyril and Methody. The most important argument to the proto-Slavic origin of the Macedonians is that Grinevich has decoded the inscriptions using a language, according to him, spoken by the Aegean Pelasti who were pre-Slavs (p. 175). Grinevich concludes that the pre-Slavic written language had been very close to the Old Slavic written literary language of all Slavs, the later was introduced by the brothers Sts. Cyrilus and Methodius and their students, Sts. Clement and Naum of Ohrid. Since we know the Old-Slavic language from the area around Salonica, it will lead us to the conclusion that that is the language of the Macedonians. The applied antonym Macedonians is in complete accordance to the Ph. Papazoglu's estimation: Having ceased to exist as a state [after the Roman defeat]... Macedonian people did not vanish; it continued to exist within the frames of the new political community, then Roman State, preserving its ethnic characteristics, its language, religion and customs. The presence of a pre-Slavic language, such as that one of the Pellastis, is not a new discovery. Even in the distant 1815 the German philosopher L.F. Pasof said that Homer's language is as a matter of fact a form of Slavic. In 1850 his work was translated in English and published in New York (a proof that this theory was not discarded once it emerged). Pasof said that Homer's lexic in the Illiad actually corresponds to the lexic of the Slavic Languages. Because contemporary Macedonian language is also a Slavic language, and according to a lot of research the ancient Macedonian language was of the same kind as the language of the Pellastis, being the oldest recognized Slavic language, it is very likely that contemporary Macedonian in certain laxic elements is like the Homeric Language. It should be taken into consideration, that the Iliad became popular in Athens in 592 BCE, in the time of king Solon, and his heir, Pysistrates, ordered that the be Iliad translated and decorated in Greek so that the Greek people can be familiar with the victory of the Hellenic peoples over the non-Hellenes (M.N. Gjuric, History of Hellenic Literature, 67 - 8). Plutarchus says that the Iliad was not originally written in Greek, and that Solon used Homer's masterpiece in his own advantage: Linguistic continuity between the ancient and modern Macedonians is shown by the continuity of the name of the ancient capital of Macedonia, Edessa. The Macedonians knew this city as 'Voden' long before linguists discovered that the Slavic name was a translation of the original name and that both meant "watertown." The Greeks, on the other hand, unless they study linguistics, do not know the meaning of the name anyway, I won't go on... I guess this proves once and for all what we have all been saying in here... and if anyone wants to know more... here is the URL... and grrk this is especially for you... [url]http://www.makedonija.info/ancient.html[/url] |
| Lapotica | WOW, Stormchild....[;)][:D][:D] |
| princessjk25 | I am Greek and proud of it! I have read about Alexander the Great and he is Macedonian. He was interested in the Greek people and learned the language and culture. I don't see what all the hate is about. I know Macedonian people and like them. They like Greeks too. The Turks came to Greece, tortured and killed them. It is sad what they did to the Greeks, but I don't have anything against the Turks. That is the past. I don't see why everyone has to fight about Alexander the Great!!!! Get over it people!! lol |
| graf | Get over it hahahahaha ,say that to the grrk people and the goverment. It is not just about Alenaxder the great, but it is about the MACEDONIAN HISTORY . The people we are. |
| mafisKumA | quote:I'll spell it out for you loud and clear next time I see you [:p][:p][:p][:p][:p] |
| psevdonim | Nema somnevanje deka nie denesnite makedonci poteknuvame od slovenite(mada da sme se malku izmesale so togasnite starosedelci, pa potoa malku so turcite) i toa e fakt. Se znae deka antickite makedoncki zboruvale grcki, imale grcki bogovi i taka natamu. Pa taka e jasno deka antickite makedonci bile grci, ili pak bile mnogu blizok narod so grckiot. Isto taka se znae deka po naseluvanjeto na slovenite na ovie prostori, imeto na nasata novosozdadena slovenska drzava e zedeno od imeto na starosedelskata nacija(antickite makedonci). I tuka doaga problemot. Imeto makedonija e koristeno vo skoro site politicki dokumenti, teritorijata na koja ziveele nasite pradedovci se narekuvala makedonija. I toa so vekovi. I site znaeme deka denesna makedonija e bure barut. Znaeme deka tri-cetiri sosedi imaat ambicii kon nasata makedonija i isto taka nekoi sosedi so site nivni moznosti sakaat da ne soedinat so 'majka ...'. Problemot e vo toa sto ako denes se prestane da se koristi imeto Makedonija, kako sto se identifikuval makedonskiot narod i nacija niz vekovite, ke se pojavat silni strui koisto ke se obidat da ja destabiliziraat makedonija i da ja priklucat kon nivnite drzavi(ovie ke bidat "nasite" luge). Drugo e prasanjeto za toa dali Grcija moze da go koristi terminot za anticka 'makedonija'. Jas ne sum ekspert po grcka istorija, pa taka nemozam da kazam dali grcite mozat da go koristat imeto na Aleksandar Veliki. Po se sto ucev vo istorija, znaete za kulturata na antickite makedonci i osobeno za doseluvanjeto na slovenite nie nemame pravo za tvrdenjeto deka sme direktni potomci na aleksandar veliki. Namesto toa, treba da se soocime so realnosta, deka sme sloveni! |
| psevdonim | WHIUUUUUUUUUU... Nekoj navistina se iznervira..... 1. Ne veruvam vo gospod Za 'varvari' i za 'jazikot' si vo pravo ama... Nie denes nemame nisto zaednicko so antickite makedonci(osven sto sme malku izmesani). Denes se vikame makedonija zatoa sto koga se naselivme starosedelcite se vikaa 'makedonci', i toa e se. Znaci DENESNITE MAKEDONCI nemaat nikakva vrska so antickite, nego poteknuvaat od slovenite, a za toa dali 'antickite makedonci' se grci i slicni raboti ne me interesira, i nema nikakvo vlijanie na 'naseto prasanje'. |
| SamovilaGoddess | psevdonim Da ne treba da ti prevedam nesto od angliskiot tekst? Nie sme prodolzenie od antickite Makedonci. Kako mozis da kazis deka nemame nisto zaednicko???? DNA EVIDENCE...KRV. Ako ne go razbiras angliskiot samo kazi ke ti prevedam se so treba. Jas nikogas ne tvrdam deka Makedoncite denes se 100% isti so antickite Makedonci. Mnogu narodi dojdoa na balkanot niz vreminjata i normalno deka ne sme istite luge. Samo da znaes, antickite Makedonci bea PROTO-SLAVIK(VENETI), "slavjani" "sloveni" ..anticki Sloveni da recime. Naj golemata propaganda vrz Makedoncite denes e deka se "Slavik" so dojdoa od zad Karpatite. Kade ima dokazi za toa? Kade se site tie borbi, migracii od toj del na evropa? Nema nikakov dokaz. Ako navistina e taka, deka segasnite Makedonci se dojdeni vo 6-7 vek od Karpatite, togas zosto vo R.Makedonija i Egejska Makedonija ima glagoliticko pismo za bozicite VEDY (na vodata) i ZEMANA (na zemjata) od godinata 4000-5000 BCE??? So bara "slavik" jazik vo Makedonija od pred 6000-7000 godini?, neli sme "dojdeni" vo 6-7 vek? Doprva imas za ucenje, bez navreda. Ima mnogu nasi so ne si ja znaat istorijata, vreme e da ja naucime. Pozdrav! |
| SamovilaGoddess | psevdonim, so takvi kako tebe, ne vredi da se praj muabet. ostani si takov kakov so si, drvo nedelkano i anti-Makedonist. Pozdrav |
| SamovilaGoddess | http://www.niagara.com/~jezovnik/anthony_ambrozic.htm How to Order: Anthony Ambrozic, 8 Lafayette Place, Thornhill , Ontario L3T 1G5, CANADA Preface It was not until the 1970s that serious work on Phrygian inscriptions began. With the exception of American excavations at Gordium in the 1950s and a publication in 1966 of an adventurous work by Otto Haas (Phrygische Sprachdenkmäler), there had been little progress until the decade of the 70s. It was the advent on the scene of a giant that broke the lull. Aided by the Asia-Minor-inscription terrain expert, Claude Brixhe, it was Michel Lejeune who brought his genius and expertise to bear on the subject matter. Having organized the cooperation of the French Institute of Archeology at Istanbul, the University of Pennsylvania excavation team at Gordium, and a variety of museums in Turkey, they systematically proceeded to prepare, examine, and review each inscription individually. By joint accord they established a definitive redaction which in 1984 was published in Paris as Corpus des Inscriptions Paléo-Phrygiennes. My interest in the Old Phrygian inscriptions was aroused two years ago when I was searching for Anatolian toponymic traces left behind by the tribe of Volcae Tectosages. I was intrigued by the seemingly Slavic toponymy encountered over a much wider area of the plateau than that settled by the Tectosages. I pursued the matter to the point of tracking it down to the work on the Old Phrygian inscriptions by Lejeune and Brixhe. A cursory perusal, however, persuaded me that any possible division and translation of the inscriptions would prove to be a daunting task. Since I was in the process of putting the final touches on Journey Back to the Garumna, I was quickly induced to postponing any work on the Old Phrygian passages to a less pressing time. And so it remained for a year. Then, I received a letter from Mr. Anton Skerbinc of Boswell, British Columbia, who in 1999 had translated portions of Adieu to Brittany into Slovene. At the behest of Professor Aleksandar Donski of Shtip, Macedonia, who had sent him an artistic rendering of the front segment of Old Phrygian inscriptions M-01a, M-01b, M-02, and all of G-105, Mr. Anton Skerbinc asked me to look into the possible Venetic connection to the inscriptions. Since I had previously translated the inscription from Plumergat in Brittany, now attached as Appendix E, for him and Giancarlo Tomezzoli of Munich, Germany, I heeded his intuition. The letter was a timely prod for me to get on with the Old Phrygian passages in earnest. The fact that six inscriptions from Dura-Europos had also been Venetic was a fair intimation of possible success. It was, in fact, the Venetic passages from Dura-Europos that caused me to devote much of my spare time to the endeavor of locating other Venetic colonies from the era of the post-Alexander Seleucid Empire. Ever since Adieu to Brittany had come out, Dr. Charles Bryant-Abraham of San Diego, California (to whose work in the area, incidentally, I had also been introduced by Mr. Anton Skerbinc), and I have been trying to find non-Greek, pre-Hellenic-Age inscriptions from Macedonia. So far, unfortunately, in vain. However, the division and successful translation of the Old Phrygian inscriptions in this book go a long way in alleviating our frustration on that front. Dr. Charles Bryant-Abraham's statement in Appendix D that the "Venetic inscriptions from Dura-Europos lend weighty if still circumstantial evidence that Alexander and his Macedonian people may very well have been Veneti" is now being upheld by the compelling lapidary testimony from the Anatolian plateau. Significance of Inscriptions In respect to the linguistic provenance of the inscriptions, the guarded none committal expressed by the Encyclopedia Britannica should be noted in vol. 4th page 437, it states "Gaulish is attested by inscriptions from France and Northern Italy. Modern knowledge of the vocabulary and sounds of Gaulish is slight, and its exact relation to the Celtic language of Britain and Ireland is not clear." It continues in an expanded article: "In the territory of ancient Gaul, now occupied by France, about 60 stone inscriptions in the language known as Gaulish were found. The date from the 3rd century BC to the 3rd century AD. For the older inscriptions, the Greek alphabet was used, for the more recent, the Roman characters of the Imperial period." The erroneous assumption that the Slavenetic inscriptions fall within the Celtic ambit have caused nothing but frustration for four generations for Celtic linguists. As recently as 1980, the famous Celtic scholar, Léon Fleuriot, devoted much of the year to the decryption and translation what is known as the Lezoux-Plate inscription without the finest scintilla of success. Parts of the plate having broken off and vanished, we only have a portion of the inscription. But, I hope I do not exaggerate when I say that, of what remains, the average Slovene would be able to make substantial sense of the import of the passage without too much difficulty. What appears on the back of the plate are the do's and don'ts addressed to the family's young son. Readily recognizable are such phrases as: "JES TI AN KON' (you eat a horse), "GOR JO SED" (sit up), "SAMO BIJ MOLATUS" (only say your prayers), "PAPEJ BOVDI, NE TE TU (TAM) (eat here, not there, here (and yonder)), "NUGNATE NE DAMA GUSSOV" (we do not give you kisses), "VE ROV NE CURRI" (do not leak into the ditch), "SIT BIO, BER TO" (when you are full, read this). Of some seventy-five-odd inscriptions heretofore called Gaulish, only about a dozen appear to be Celtic. Prominent among them is the purportedly Druid Calendar of Coligny (Text Inscription 53 of Dottin's La Langue Gundoise). Of the remainder, 65 are unquestionably Slavenetic. Of these, 44 have been translated in my books Adieu to Brittany and Journey Back to the Garumna. I will now review the rest. An explanatory parsing appears in Appendix B. |
| SamovilaGoddess | http://www.prah.net/europaveneta/augustan/updateonveneti.htm more on .... Jozko Šavli, Matej Bor, Ivan Tomazic. VENETI: First Builders of European Community: Tracing the History and Language of Early Ancestors of Slovenes. UPDATE ON VENETI What was the Mother Tongue of Alexander the Great? by Charles Bryant-Abraham, Ph. D. Fellow, The Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies and Research Jerusalem, Israel After submission of my review of VENETI to Sir Rodney Hartwell in June 1998, I came across a book in Athens of potential interest to the subject of Proto - (West) Slavic presence in the Balkans He Glossa tes Makedonias, he Archaia Makedonike kai he Pseudonyme Glossa ton Skopion, "The Language of Macedonia, Old Macedonian and the so-called Language of the Skopljites" (written in modern Greek with citations in classical Greek and in Latin), by G. Khatsidakis, et al. (Athens, Greece: Olkos, 1993). I will not review the book at this time for our Greek-reading Augustans, other than to indicate broadly my impression that the seven contributing writers have built a well-reasoned argument for the essential Hellenism of Alexander the Great. One cannot, however, avoid suspicion of a hidden political agenda to head off any future South Slavic irredentism for the Macedonian-speaking hinterland of Thessalonica. Unlike Veneti the book presents no linguistic evidence to shore up its premises and conclusions. Granted, as A. I Thabores correctly points out (p. 194) in his chapter,"He Hellenike Dialektos ton Archaion Makedonon kai ta Semerina Neo-Hellenica Idiomata tes Makedonias (kai tes Alles Boreias Helladas)," "The Greek Dialect of the Ancient Macedonians and the Modern New Greek Dialects of Macedonia (and the Rest of Northern Greece)": ". . . the names of their gods, the myths and the mythical heroes, their personal names, the monumental and place names and local items of their dialect ... are all essentially Greek." [my translation] Yet I would query whether this might not be reflective of an on-going, pervasive Greek cultural influence in the frontier zone between Greece and the Balkan peoples reaching back to the pre-heroic age. The passage that caught my eye and that I would bring to the attention of our fellow Augustan, Dr. Jozko Šavli, and his co-authors of Veneti, Prof. Matej Bor and Father Ivan Tomazic, occurs in Anna Panagiotou's study (pp. 187-188), "He Glossa ton Archaion Epigraphon tes Makedonias," "'The Language of the Ancient Inscriptions of Macedonia." I urge Dr. Savli and his colleagues to reexamine the known Macedonian inscriptions -- there are some 6,000 of themthrough the prism of Slovenian diachronic dialectology, and I first pose the challenging question here in The Augustan: Though thoroughly assimilated into the Greek culture and language through the education of his teacher, Aristotle, can it be that Alexander the Great himself emerged into world history from a Proto-(West) Slavic, i.e., Venetic, family background? I translate Ms. Panagiotou's reference to a passage in Curtius(2) Hist. Alex. Magni Maced., IV, I11.4.: ... which narrates another event of the kingdom of Alexander... considered as an indication that the Macedonian language was not a Greek dialect, but a different language: the general Philotas was accused by one of his compatriots of not feeling ashamed, " . . . Macedonatus, homines linguae suae per interpretem audire," ". . . born a Macedonian, to hear the men of his language through an interpreter," i.e., according to this passage, Philotas had need of translators in order to understand the mother tongue. Yet in a curious way, this passage comes to contradict another by the same author in the same document (VI.9.34-36.) Alexander asks if Philotas will speak in the language of their fathers, "... Macedones ... de te indicaturi sunt, quero an patrio sermone sis apud eos usurus," "... the Macedonians who will judge you, I ask if you will use the language of [our] fathers with them," and elicited the response: "Praeter Macedonas ... plerique adsunt, quos facilius quae dicam percep-turus arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus qua tu egisti, non ob aliud, credo quam ut oratio tua intellegi posset a pluribus," "[Above and] beyond the Macedonians ... there are many present whom, I feel, will more easily grasp the things I say if I use the same language you did, for no other reason, I believe, than that your speech might be understood by many." This explanation caused the angry remarks of Alexander that Philotas neglects to speak in the language of their fathers: "Ecquid videtis adeo etiam sermonis patrii Philotan toedere? Solus quippe fastidit eum discere. Sed dicat sane utcumque ei cordi est, dum memineritis aeque ilium a nostro more quam sermone abhorrere," "Have you ever seen Philotas reject the language of [our] fathers heretofore? Indeed, he alone is averse to learning it. Let him then say, however, it is in his heart, since you will remember that he is opposed to our custom[s] as well as our language." Ms. Panagiotou's article proceeds to attempt to explain this passage as referring to a northern Hellenic dialect so greatly at variance with the contemporary Koine that it might just as well have been a foreign language. Her attempt falls short of convincing. Now, the work plan before us is not complex. The Macedonian inscriptions, must be scrutinized anew by the trained and sensitive eyes of Slavicists of the stature of the authors of Veneti. Let this task be undertaken at the earliest possible moment. ENDNOTES: Charles Bryant-Abraham, PhD, Fellow, The Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies and Research Jerusalem, Israel Cf John C. Rolfe. Quintus Curtius (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1962.) Rolfe states (p. xviii): "Curtius's principal source is Clitarchus, son of Dinon (Pliny, NH. x (49) 136), who accompanied Alexander's expedition and wrote a highly coloured account of it ... Curtius used Clitarchus in a changed and contaminated form, perhaps through Timagenes, whom he mentions in viii. 5.21 in connexion with Clitarchus and Ptolemy ... He differs with Clitarchus in ix. 5.21 and follows Ptolemy, censuring Clitarchus for carelessness or credulity. . ." Rolfe adds (p. 3od): "The Historiae seem to be the work of a rhetorician rather than of an historian. One of his principle aims was to insert in his work brilliant speeches and romantic incidents. Doubtless he wished to give a correct account, but his imperfect knowledge of history and geography led him into many errors. Rolfe is correct in pointing out (p. xxiv) that the chancellery language of Macedonia was Greek: "For some generations the court language was Attic Greek." Yet, even conservatively admitting constraints on Curtius' accuracy, we must presume a kernel veracity for the passages in question. That presumption is sufficient to warrant reexamination of the Macedonian inscriptions by Venetologists. |
| SamovilaGoddess | Za tie so ne razbiraat angliski: Avtor: Tashko Belchev 1. Makedonija Centar na Venetskata Civilizacija na Balkanot i Poshiroko 2. Chetiri Iljadi Godini Makedonska Civilizacija, Pismenost i Kultura |
| mafisKumA | quote:Canmak first and foremost “g’day mate” [:X] Now that you’ve enlightened me as to the significance of the pyramids I can undertake my daily chores with ease. Wow, now that’s a load off my mind. [:p][:p][:p] I studied Ancient History for three years and I thank you for the refresher course. [;)][:D][;)] As a student of Ancient History, it was emotionally overwhelming to have had the opportunity to visit, as I’m certain many of you have, the ruins of the Parthenon and to be able to stand on the said ruins with the knowledge of the activities of its ancient occupants. BUT we should leave history where it belongs “IN THE PAST” with the hope that we may learn from it’s mistakes. So let’s stop dwelling on the past and concentrate on the present and the future. To quote AC/DC “let’s talk about the future forget about the past” or better still John Lennon “Imagine there's no countries it isn't hard to do nothing to kill or die for and no religion too imagine all the people living life in peace ......" The operative word being PEACE Love thy neighbour and take care all |
| Boulgaroktonos | The truth about Macedonia... • Greek toponyms in ancient Macedonia The Slavic propaganda claims that "the Greeks changed the original Macedonian names of towns in Macedonia to Greek ones in the early 1900s". They also present lists of Slavic names that the Greeks supposedly replaced. This is a another Slavic attempt to falsify the history of the region. A quick look in the history books can easily prove that the Greek names are used since the ancient years and are of course are much older than the Slavic ones. The Greeks never changed any names they didn't have to! They use the same names for centuries. A characteristic example is te city of Thessaloniki... Thessaloniki was founded in 315bc by king Kassandros of Macedonia and was named after Alexander the Great's half sister (the daughter of King Philppos). Now the Slavs claim that the Greeks changed the name from Solun to Thessaloniki! How can this be possible if Thessaloniki is the original name and Solun a much later one? this is a clear attempt to falsify the history of the Macedonia. » More ancient quotes referring to the Greek names of Macedonian towns • Tacitus, The Annals, book 12, par 12 (48—54 AD) "The advice was disregarded through the perfidy of Acbarus, by whom the foolish young prince, who thought that the highest position merely meant self-indulgence, was detained for several days in the town of Edessa. " • Strabo, Geography, book 7, chapter 7, section 4 The Aegaean Sea washes Greece on two sides: first, the side that faces towards the east and stretches from Sunium, towards the north as far as the Thermaean Gulf and Thessaloniceia, a Macedonian city, which at the present time is more populous than any of the rest; [...] From Pylon the road runs to Barnus through Heracleia and the country of the Lyncestae and that of the Eordi into Edessa and Pella and as far as Thessaloniceia; and the length of this road in miles, according to Polybius, is two hundred and sixty seven. [...] Some, however, also assign to Macedonia the country that extends from the Strymon as far as the Nestus River, since Philip was so specially interested in these districts that he appropriated them to himself, and since he organized very large revenues from the mines and the other natural resources of the country. • Strabo, Geography, book 7, chapter 7, section 8 It is said that Orestes once took possession of Orestias--when is, exile on account of the murder of his mother--and left the country bearing his name; and that he also founded a city and called it Argos Oresticum. • Strabo, Geography, book 10, chapter 1, section 15 When the Euboeans were returning from Troy, some of them, after being driven out of their course to Illyria, set out for home through Macedonia, but remained in the neighborhood of Edessa, after aiding in war those who had received them hospitably; and they founded a city Euboe. • M. Tullius Cicero, Letters, text A, book 3, letter 8 [B.C. 58. Coss., L. Piso, A. Gabinius: Letters in exile: LXIII (A III, 8): to Atticus (at Rome) "I myself continued my journey, and arrived at Thessalonica on the 23rd of May, but have no certain intelligence about his journey except that he had left Ephesus some time ago." • Aristotelis Meteorologika, Book I, Par. 14 "...and she was not there forever, but after the cataclysm of Defkalion, which occurred in the Hellenic area, in fact, in the ancient Hellas, which was around Dodoni, and it changed many times the flow of Acheloos river. • Plutarch, Lives: Caius Martius Coriolanus: Julius Caesar: Marcus Brutus: Marcus Antonius: Octavius Caesar Augustus: Theseus: Alcibiades, Chapter 46 "Afterwards Brutus performed the promise he had made to the soldiers, and gave them the two thousand drachmas apiece; but yet he first reproved them, because they went and gave charge upon the enemies at the first battle, before they had the word of battle given them: and made them a new promise also, that if in the second battle they fought like men, he would give them the sack and spoil of two cities, to wit, Thessaloniki and Lacedaemon." And as Leonidas said to Persians when they asked him to give his weapons in order to surrender..... Molon lave (Come and take them)[}:)] |
| Dieselsx | why do modern greeks want to be associated with a leader that ancient greeks despised and wanted dead? i cannot understand this???? |
| Dieselsx | also my greek friends the sun symbol was as offending to the ancient greeks as was the swaztika to the jewish people (sounds harsh but back then the macedonians destroyed many greek cities and replaced greek democracy with a king, doesnt sound greek/hellenic too me) why do u want to own it now? it is not yours the ancient greeks had zues to worship the macedonians the sun that alone made them not greek. also greeks dont understand that it was a huge offence to call a macedonian a greek/hellenic back then and its still offensive now! i dont think alexander would be happy to know he is being called a greek now either. so what i can also say is ancient greeks - hated- ancient macedonians modern greeks - still hate - modern macedonians see no change ,greeks are still greeks and macedonians still macedonians |
| HanAvitohol | Hey guys, Why don't you pay some more attantion to what the educated Greeks have to say about the history of the Balkans. The ancient Macedonians were not exactly Greeks, but propabably a Illirian tribe. They had extensional connections with the Greek colonies around them and at some point managed to conquer Greece. Unfortunately for you, those people, along with the Trcian tribes, as a ethnicity were annihilated and assimilated by the Romans, the Slavsa and the other tribes sweeping Macedonia for centuries. There hasn't been any sign that those people exist for more than 15 centuries!!! Just take a look at the language you speak nowadays. Do you really believe this is the language of the Alexander the Great?! This is a normal Bulgarian with some changes done by the Serbian government during their occupation of Macedoniaafter 1913 and especially after 1944. My great-grand father was born in Macedonia. After the wars his family escaped into Mother Bulgaria. Can you guess why or you will need some additional explanations on the history. |
| Thunder from down under | HanAvithohol, if you have a littlebit of brain you will not say to us to pay more attention on what greek educated people (if any) have to say , so you obviosly dont know what is happening or you just playing a smartass or something no wonder the bulgarians brain washed you . You do come from Macedonian blood dont you ? if you would have said "pay attention on what a non greek and non Macedonians like: " what English schoolars have to say " fair enought mate but what you said is a bit stupid mate isnt it ? |
| fumfudge | Martin mi se prispiva koga te slusham[:0]Kako na CD burner da te pravele a ne na krevet. |
| graf | we are not habibies |
| Ishmael | quote:This is a little bit off topic but I couldn't resist. Do you really believe english scholars? I personally prefer a debate between macedonians and greeks. Do I need to remind you that almost all major problems on this planet were caused by the british schoorals' propaganda? C'mon ... you must be joking. Should we follow the "divide and conquer" school of thought?! Iraq/Kuwaits (both iraqis) Palestine/Israel(palestinian for 1600 years) Palestine/Jordan (both arab-palestinians) Somalia/Somaliland (both somalis) India/Pakistan (both indians) Pakistan/Bangladesh (both indians) Malaysia/Singapore (both malaysians) and the list goes on ... Check the dates of their independence from britain and the dates of their (usually civil) war. They have divided 6,000 year-old counties like india and iraq. They made them wanna kill each other. |
| Thunder from down under | i meant someone independant Ishmael, There was a debate once in Australia on National Television the Macedonian representative was some Dr phd whatever and he said to the greek one that Alexander conquered the greeks how can he be a greek and the greek one didnt know what to say and he stared going on about some bullshit proving how stupid and stubborn they are ,how can you have a debate with people like Debating with a greek about Macedonia is like talking to a brickwall talking about this pomies they the ones that couse the trouble at the beggining back in 1913 and not only for Macedonia but for many other countries in simular way and if you notice none of them is catolic country |
| HanAvitohol | da, technite imena bqcha promeneni prez 1984-5 godina. Comunistite se opitacha da gi napravqt Bylgari, no ne uspqcha, zastoto ne im stigan vremeto...Az lichno ne sygalqvam za tova, zastoto 200 000- 300 000 tyrci se izselicha zavinnagi ot Bylgaria, koqto ot vek i polovina veche ne e tqchna zemq... Za tozi taka neimenuvan "Vyzroditelen proces" ima dokazatelstva i nikoj ne go e otrichal...Imash li takiva dokazatelstva za perioda 1913-1944 i hilqdite izselnici ot Makedonia v Bulgaria. Vsichki izselnici ot Makedonia, za razlika ot Turcite se integrirat byrzo v obstestvoto, moge bi zastoto nikoj ne gi podtiska, a dori naprotiv, zastoto sa Bulgari, govorqt Bulgarski i samite te nikoga ne sa se imali za nesto drugo osven Bulgari...Mnogo ot tch v posledstvie zaemat vagni politicheski postove, kakto sa i isvestni ucheni i drugi...Smqtash li che edno podtiskano, nasila izseleno v chugda dyrgava malcinstvo nqkoga ste postigne tova?! Ne iskam da se obigdame, az ne vi obigdam po nikakyv nachin, prosto se opitavam da vodq edna civilizovana diskusia... |
| deni | Boulgaroktonos Ancient Macedonian language has nothing in common with the greek language . Alexander accepted the ancient greek language as a language in what he can comunicate with those pple who didn't know how to speak Macedonian.By the way ancient greek language was , some kind of international language in the mediterrenian . SO you are saying that Alexander is Greek a ? Ancient Macedonian Genes in the the Modern Macedonian Nation not-related to the Greek Nation National Center for Biotechnology Information Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001 Feb; 57(2):118-127 Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. [email protected] Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martinez-Laso J. HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. PMID: 11260506 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] |
| HanAvitohol | I disregard your stupid remarks and ask: Where was the great macedonian nation between 3rd century AC and 20th century. It is a well-known fact, that every single ethnicity on the Balkans has fought against its neignbors.Right?! Show me a one, single documented battle between macedonians and Bulgarians, please! And do not claim, that Samuil was Macedonian king, becasue he wrote, that he is Bulgarian. That's according to a macedonian cite. Sorry, it's not nice do not know your roots and history, actually, it's quite pitty... |
| HanAvitohol | it's also quite intersting why nobady was saying "To be born Macedonian is a privilidge" before 1944. why?! |
| fumfudge | Well, if it is easier for you to believe that one night 4 million Bulgarians from the geographical region called Macedonia went to sleep and awoke the next morning believing and claiming they were something else than what they have been for centuries only till the previous night, then Martincho, permission granted. I agree with you, such things happen every now and then, sometimes even in the short stories of Gogol [:)] F. |
| Thunder from down under | quote:What do you want to say aboutMACEDONIANS AND bulgariansnot fighting each other i dont get that one ? quote:furthers i know car samoil had a caslte build in Ohrid thats about it i dont know where you get you info from but i might be wrong i personaly never felt that samoil was a Macedonian quote:People were saying "To be born Macedonian is a privilidge" not before 1944 but before 1944 BC dont you wory about that ASK YOU GRAND FATHER WHAT JANICHAR IS? THATS WHAT YOU ARE HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU TURN AGAINS YOU OWN BLOOD I HOPE YOU DONT GET BRAIN WASHED AND HARM YOUR OWN CHILDREN IN ANY WAY MACEDONIA IS BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY HanAvitohol YOU SHOULD VISIT IT AND ENJOY YOUR FATHER LAND, PEOPLE IN MACEDONIA LAST THING ON THEIR MIND IS TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS ONLY THE POEOPLE THAT ARE OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY ARE WORRIED I LIVE IN AUSTRALIA YOU LIVE IN bulgaria AUSTRALIAN GOVERNAMENT IS ENCOURIGING US TO LOVE AND NOT FORGET WHERE WE COME FROM SO YOU DO THE MATHS NOW ABOUT bulgarian governament paranoia why they do what they do to people like you. You mantioned that youy family originatet from Kochani.Does the bulgarian governament alows you to visit your family birth place? Becouse bulgarian governament was spending so much money in brainwashing you people untill yesterday you people did not even had a fridges to keep the meat fresh you had to dig 20 metres under ground and keep the meat there WAKE UP TO YOU SELF MAN |
| HanAvitohol | ok.... My grand-grand father was a school teacher and was not Macedonian, as well as the majority of the population of his birthplace at that time. Well, there were Greeks there of course, I do not disrespect that fact. The fact that right after wars between 30,000 and 50,000 refugees escaped from the geographic region Macedonia (occupied at that time by Serbian and Greek army). Does that brings some conclusions to you?! The most logical conclusion to me is: The most educated Bulgarians from Macedonia managed to escape to mother Bulgaria, because they did no want to be brainwashed by Serbians and Greeks and die out. Those people were not brought forcefully in Bulgaria, they sought refugees over there. Were is the best place to seek refuge? In the land, where your brother and sisters are free. Right? You should know that better, as you live in Australia now... Would you escape to a land where you are not welcomes or they surpress or brainwash you?! Athens, WV 05/07/2003 |
| fio | Ubavo si kaza chovekot, zborete si Makedonski :) |
| graf | Bulgaria and grrks are all tell all the same lies |
| mafisKumA | What a pity that the human race can not co-exist in harmony. People dwell on the past with an almost nauseating obsession. What’s even more sad is the fact that the younger generation harbour grudges which date back centuries to the days of their great-great-great-great grandparents. |
| HanAvitohol | Guys, guys... Because I see that you are torturing yourself writing in English (except for those of you that live in Australia of course), I suggest you start expressing yourselves in "Alexander the Great's" language. And...do not worry about me, I have studied Bulgarian about 17 years, so I will understand your mother language perfectly. Hm...why am I be able to understand your ancient language, as I have never sudied "macedonian"... pretty strange, isn't it....And please note, I do not curse, though I can curse in Bulgarian and you will understand me very well...I just think that's not polite...ne e li taka?! |
| mafisKumA | HanAvitohol Please heed your own advice. Don’t overtax your linguistic capabilities. |
| HanAvitohol | quote:furthers i know car samoil had a caslte build in Ohrid thats about it i dont know where you get you info from but i might be wrong i personaly never felt that samoil was a Macedonian quote:People were saying "To be born Macedonian is a privilidge" not before 1944 but before 1944 BC dont you wory about that ASK YOU GRAND FATHER WHAT JANICHAR IS? THATS WHAT YOU ARE HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU TURN AGAINS YOU OWN BLOOD I HOPE YOU DONT GET BRAIN WASHED AND HARM YOUR OWN CHILDREN IN ANY WAY MACEDONIA IS BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY HanAvitohol YOU SHOULD VISIT IT AND ENJOY YOUR FATHER LAND, PEOPLE IN MACEDONIA LAST THING ON THEIR MIND IS TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS ONLY THE POEOPLE THAT ARE OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY ARE WORRIED I LIVE IN AUSTRALIA YOU LIVE IN bulgaria AUSTRALIAN GOVERNAMENT IS ENCOURIGING US TO LOVE AND NOT FORGET WHERE WE COME FROM SO YOU DO THE MATHS NOW ABOUT bulgarian governament paranoia why they do what they do to people like you. You mantioned that youy family originatet from Kochani.Does the bulgarian governament alows you to visit your family birth place? Becouse bulgarian governament was spending so much money in brainwashing you people untill yesterday you people did not even had a fridges to keep the meat fresh you had to dig 20 metres under ground and keep the meat there WAKE UP TO YOU SELF MAN My goverment has never resticted me, a member of my family or any Bulgarian to go to Macedonia. If you do not believe that Samuil was Macedonian, and he was not, plaese go to the Map section of this forum and share your thoughts with the guy that has posted a map of Bulgarian Kingdom dirung the reign of Car Samuil and has labelled that map : "the Macedonian Empire". You might want this to be true, but unfortunately for you it was not... |
| deni | quote:idiotikos tataros are you insane ? I know a lot of ppple who had to leave the Aegean part of Macedonia just because of the greek propaganda.A lot of pple stayed there , with NO right to speak their language ( even in their homes ) .They changed their names in greek names, adding os , is at the end of the name.Thats a fuckin assimilation (just like the tatars did to the turks that live in bulgaria).and they succeed , belive me .Very few macedonians in Aegean Macedonia kept their language and names . |
| HanAvitohol | well, I know few people from Macedonia and I can tell that Bulgarian and the language they speak are much more similar than Russian or Serbian or Polish. The blood link between us is undisputable. I just cannot understand why nowadays you want to consider yourselves something else. I do not agree that an Englishman, who killed the last Aborigen, could call himself Australian. I do not mean citizenship, I mean ethnicity. If you are not familiar with this word, please look it up in a dictionary (prefferably not Serbian or written on a Serbian typewriter...hehehhhohoh) |
| Legal-Eagle | I heard the most funniest retort today, i took this debate to work. I employ a large number of people stemming from many different nationalities and races. Maybe i was feeling slightly saddistic, so i let the cat among the pigeons. A debate eventuated between one of the 'greek' employees and one of the macedonian boys ... i know i should have intervened afterall, it was on MY time. But the funniest thing i had ever heard was when Mr Macedonian said to Mr Greek. "yeah mate, i acknowledge the fact that you are greek, but here's one for you, when all of you greeks were f*cking each other up the arse's the we macedonians were f*cking your ancestors' mothers, daughters, and every other female virgin". I should of stopped it there but had to leave the room because i was pissing myself laughing at that commment.... Oh well, it is always nice to have another person's slant on the topic.[:D] |
| Deemer | 1. tell me some pure bulgarian names 2. http://geneamac.dhs.org/immigration/PASS-Ivernia.php3 3. the balkan wars 1912 when brothers from one family have served in diffrent armyes and fight eachother as well as bulgarians.As far as samuil proof me where did he proclamed as bulgarian. |
| BorisVM | quote:Dear Costas, there is a fallacy in your thinking. If we apply binary logic to your statement we get: 1. Macedonia is Greek translated Macedonia = Greek 2. Greece is Macedonian translated Greece = Macedonia So yes you are right, you guys belong to us, since we conquered you long time ago. Thank you for your not so eloquent clarification. Boris |
| Boulgaroktonos | For my friend CanMak that said that US Post Office recognises FYROM as Macedonia FOURTEEN STATE HOUSES OF REPRESENTATIVES IN THE US BACK THE GREEK POSITIONS ON THE ISSUE OF MACEDONIA New York, 1 July 2003 (20:45 UTC+2) The Houses of Representatives in the states of Louisiana, Pennsylvania, and Ohio have passed a resolution filed by the Pan-Macedonian Association of America recognizing that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks, today's inhabitants of Macedonia are of Greek origin and Macedonia is a part of northern Greece. In total, 14 state Houses of Representatives have adopted the same resolution thanks to the efforts made by philhellene Americans and Greek-American members of state Houses of Representatives, local Macedonian Associations and other Greek-American organizations in the US. The resolution is a good response to the falsifiers of History and it was initially passed on April 3, 2003 in the Massachusetts House of Representatives to be followed by the Houses of Representatives of California, Illinois, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, New Hampshire, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Texas. Similar resolutions are going to be discussed soon in the Houses of Representatives of the states of New York, Florida, Virginia and Mississippi. Massachusetts House of Representatives Resolution Recognizing that the ancient Macedonians were Hellenes, and that the inhabitants of Macedonia today are Hellenic descendants and part of the northern province of Greece, Macedonia. Whereas, Philip of Macedonia, his son, Alexander the Great, and his tutor, the Philosopher Aristotle, were born and raised in the northern province of Greece, Macedonia; and Whereas, the language and culture of ancient Macedonians, the ancestors of the inhabitants of northern Greece today, were Hellenic; and Whereas, the Macedonians, like the rest of the Hellenes in antiquity, believed in the 12 Gods of Olympus and participated with their fellow Hellenes in the Olympic Games; and Whereas, Pella, the palace where Alexander the Great was born, and Vergina, the burial site of the Macedonian Kings, are all located in northern Greece; therefore be it Resolved, that the Massachusetts House of Representatives recognizes that the ancient Macedonians were Hellenes, and that the inhabitants of Macedonia today are Hellenic descendants and part of the northern province of Greece, Macedonia; and be it further Resolved, that the history of ancient Macedonia has been Hellenic for three thousand years and continues to be so today; and be it further Resolved, that a copy of this resolution be forwarded by the clerk of the House of Representatives to the Consul General of Greece for distribution to the leaders of the appropriate Hellenic-American organizations in Massachusetts. |
| Boulgaroktonos | Now....since i need a lot of lines to argue with every one i'll just post some addresses for you to visit. http://truth.macedonia.gr/discoveries.html http://makedonia.cc.ece.ntua.gr/PageData/archaeology.htm http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/coins/macedonia.html http://truth.macedonia.gr/index02.html http://truth.macedonia.gr/fyrom.html http://truth.macedonia.gr/arguments.html All sites are in english so its easy for you to read them.If there are any sites that i should read, pls post them to me. Pls check this links.Read them carefully and then i can read your arguements.But i'll answer them one by one. |
| Canmak | Those are state gov't....think about it Jesse Ventura was a governer, Arnold is now also a state leader........they have nothing to do with the foriegn affairs of the United States of America...I have seen all those and really I think it is a bit sad when you have to go to a lower level gov't to make you think your cause is important. I wouldn't know about the US postal service since I am Canadian but I am sure that People with Macedonian heritage do not put FYROM down when they send lettlers to the Country of Macedonia. |
| Iolas | "It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character." ... "The Nordic element is weak, as it probably has been since the days of Homer. The racial type to which Socrates belonged is today the most important, while the Atlanto-Mediterranean, prominent in Greece since the Bronze Age, is still a major factor." .. "their continuity with their ancestors of the ancient world is remarkable, rather than the opposite." "On the mtDNA and Y-chromosome front, traces of Asian-specific DNA have been detected in the Greek gene pool (though amounting to much less than in Northern and Eastern Europe), but no sub-Saharan African genes have turned up. It bears mentioning here that there's a genetic study floating around the web that alleges Greeks to be closely related to Ethiopians. This study has been discredited, as it's full of factual and even spelling errors. But its biggest error is its use as ancestral markers of HLA genes, which control immune responses and therefore, like sickle cell, are subject to environmental selection. This means they're not reliable in determining ancestral affinity, as using them thus can find bonds of kinship between Greeks and Japanese, as well as between Nordics in Iceland and Negroids in the Congo (Mourant et al., 1976)." Carleton S. Coon. |
| Iolas | [img]http://ancient-coins.com/image/i018.jpg[/img]
A macedonian coin from the era of King phillip. Alexander's father.
quote:Weird, isn't it my TurkAlbanoBulgarian friend? |
| HanAvitohol | 1.Imena sys Slavqnski proizhod, kito obache ne sa systite ili pone ne obsolutno systite v Drugite slavqnski ezici....Svetla, Dobrin, Galin...ne se sestam sega. You tell me a "macedonian" name, that does not exist in Bulgaria or Serbia?! 2. The site does not work, maybe you will be able to name me a famous "macedonian" immigrant whose family lived outside of Makedonia since 1913? 3. I'm not talking about the gorilla fightings that broke from time to time everywhere. I mean nation vs. nation, "ours" against "yours", real war, battles, like between us and the Serbs, Greeks and Turks. Brothers from one family fighting each other does not mean Bulgarians vs. "Macedonians"?! The family is ethnically either "mecedonian" or bulgarian?! It could not be both, so that one of the brothers be "mecedonian" and the other be Bulgarian... that's nonsense...do you realize that? 4. There is nothing written by Car Samuil that is uncoverd yet. His nephew, the last Bulgarian Car of the First Bulgarian Kingdom has written on the walls of Bistrica or Balgrad (Makedonia) fortress: " I Ivan Vladislav, build this fortress in year 1017 for the safety of the BULGARIANS". Besides, the Byzantines thought of Samuil's family and state as a Bulgarian one. They were comlletely sure they were fightng Bulgarian, taking Bulgarians as prisoners and killing Bulgarians. As they conquered the whole penninsula, they must have realized their mistake. But they did not, so... |
| HanAvitohol | 4. Question: What was Emperor Vasilij II's nickname and why? I am looking forward to read your answer next time! |
| Astibus | Bugar his name is Bulgarslayer this is because Vasil(who was probably armenian)came from a region in eastern thracia that had been given the name of Macedonia, since (real)Macedonia had been lost to the Byzantines by the invasions of the Slavs they named this region Macedonia, which today is around Varna i think .This is where the "Macedonian" rulers of the Byzantine empire came from and ofcourse Samuil couldnt be Macedonian since so where the Byzantine Tsars. I have a few questions for you...... 1.Who are the Bulgars?I mean where did they come from,before they lived on the volga what group of people were they apart of? 2.After the Bulgars came to the Balkans what area did they settle? 3.In total for how many years did the Bulgars rule over the peoples in Macedonia up until the Occupation by the Ottomans. Propaganda is not a new thing |
| Astibus | P.S.?????? Prost Siptar |
| vmro | he he he he he he he :o) dobro ti beshe ova |
| deni | quote:ELADA ( stinky greek cities states) was Alexander's first major target |
| Boulgaroktonos | quote:First of all you have to spell the name of your ruler correct....ELLADA. Second.....Alexander was Greek read ,some history and not history written by Greeks or Slavs. You will then understand that your history is void. Third.....Alexander the Great sacrificed to Greek Gods when ever he won a battle....that makes him Greek. Forth.....you guys are so pathetic.You also wanted Thesaloniki but we kicked your arse good.Then you thought of occuping Thrace but we kicked your arses good again.Dont try it again or you shall be kicked harder this time.I mean, come on...you are like 2 days war....i dont know how the first day of war will be like , but i know that the second day it will be a parade in your capital.....Remember what you wrote on your flag at 2nd Balkan war....-To Athens- Needless for us to write -To Sofia-, it was sure. Come on now....i've been to all the balkan countries.....i saw how you live....this shit is propaganda for the people so that you dont mess up with other problems and in order to direct and misdirect you from other issues.We are not the enemy....dont make us be. excuse my bad english) |
| Boulgaroktonos | quote:Dum ass....Sparta made war against Athens and vise versa....does this make them slavs?hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaah |
| Boulgaroktonos | Check the links man......read them and answer to me after. |
| deni | no, my dear subsaharian-gipsy friend it's not weird at all just take a mirror and you 'll see the truth [:D] small tiny greek mothafuckas can compare with US the MACEDONIAN NATION ? fuck off bitch you are denying the research of one of the best universities in EUROPE ? just send them an email :: Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. [email protected] :: |
| Iolas | quote:Sorry there is a problem here. The real macedonians don't recognize you. :) I do understand their reaction. Who would like to get related to ex slaves that still live in the cold-war era, with poor economy, no army ... and obviously no IQ? Certainly we will still help you (we are nice people) and we will still talk about the 'name dispute'. Actually you are so fool that we discuss in international fora if "Macedonia" (I mean FYROM in this case) is Greek or Slavic. I think it's Greek, and it's currently occupied. Unfortunately Macedonia was divided :( Start to realize that Slav-"macedonians" live in a land that does not belong to them :) FREE MACEDONIA! [:o)] |
| Legal-Eagle | Boulgaroktonos you dont truly need the recognition of other nations to tell you who and what you are do you? Let me put it bluntly, i dont think any of the nations other than Macedonia or Greece really care. What they are concerned about it feathering their own nests, and pissing in the pockets of the voters in their country, which just happens that there maybe be more Greek constituents than there are Macedonian. Which brings me back to my main point. WE/I dont need the recognition of the world to be Macedonian. Obviously you GREEKS need to have the association. NOT US |
| mafisKumA | WE ARE WHAT WE ARE, like it or lump it No matter how much time and effort everyone contributes to this debate the end result is that we are all human beings. Human beings which feel the same pain, that bleed the same when wounded, which cry the same in time of sorrow ... let's just leave it at that |
| dimkoska | read the book: "Macedonia and Greece, the Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation" by John Shea, published 1997. Who is Anastasia Karakasidiu, and why she had treats from the Greek nationalists? |
| cosmon25 | Boris if you know so much about history explain why alexander was faithings against the greeks , stupid assol |
| Boulgaroktonos | Fillipos became King of LOWER Macedonia on 350 bc.Other say that it was on 356 bc. What was the name of the man that explored Arabia? Parmenion (Is this a greek name? Oh my god it is!) Who was the person that ruled Macedonia when Alexnder invaded Persia? Antipatros (Another greek name!!!) Why on the coins of Macedonia the word Alexander is written in Greek? Because Alexander was a Slav? No...Because he was Greek. At Pella all the writtings are in Greek....NOT IN SLAV. The warriors were wearing Greek helmets......byt bulgarians or slavs had their own type. Why the toponymes are in Ancient Greek? Because Macedonia is Greek.....And if we want to be insain.....Bulgaria is Greek and half the Balkans also cause of the original Greek toponymes......FILIPPOUPOLIS.....Mesimbria ....Pirgos...Beroi....Kavili.....Finf out which Bulgarian cities are these....Find out who founded them.....Why the currency of Macedonia was called Exadraxmo? (which by the way is written on the coin) Because Macedonia was Greek,is Greek and it will remain Greek until the end of time.If you want it , come an take it......As for my grand grand fathers name , it was Tompazis and Panagiotou and for sure this are Greek.I recall that one of my grand fathers kicked your arses at the battle of Skra.....Really have you ever won a single battle against the Greek army? |
| Iolas | C'mon man .. you make it too easy for me. You say "We know that Alexander accepted and spread the standard koine Greek as a spoken language for his multi-ethnic empire, the only international language on which the whole Mediterranean world had already communicated even prior to the conquest of the Macedonians" So, according to your view 'greek koine' was a spoken language before alexander. It wasn't spread by his macedonians. Let's see how many people verify your information. A little search will help. 22 results for "before alexander" and "koine", 3 of them related to our issue History Of Macedonia: Greek Propagandist Websites History of the Macedonian People from Ancient times to the Present - Part IV, by Risto Stefov and Macedonia - Makedonija Awww ... only three different sites and all of them made by a wannabe-macedonians (TurkAlbanoSlaves). And they provide no references, no evidence ... nothing (that's really scientific :P). Are you the author of these sites? :) My poor propagandist, you are alone in this world. No one understands you :( |
| Iolas | Now let's see what universities, researchers, historians, archaeologists, linguists, anthropologists, etc. can tell us about "koine". Let's try another search. Oh My God! 38,281 Results :) Let's see some of them. Result 1: koine Greek. The Greek Internet Grammar for students of koine Greek http://people.uleth.ca/~robinson/koine.html "Koine (or common) Greek was the Greek spoken throughout the Mediterranean world for over half a millennium from Alexander the Greek to Constantine. It was, shall we say, the lingua franca of the Greco-Roman period, and the New Testament writings, stemming from this period, use koine. Koine is less complex than the Greek of classical Athens (called Attic Greek), in which works like those of Plato were written." Result 2: Greek Alphabet. Elementary Ancient Greek. Link at the university of N. Carolina, Greensboro http://www.uncg.edu/cla/courses/shelmerd/grkalpha.htm Koine is "common" Greek - the language spoken by regular people from c. 330 B.C. - 330 A.D. Scholars used to think it was a "debased" form of Greek used especially by the Hebrews and confined more or less to translations of the Old Testament and to the New Testament. The discovery of papyri and inscriptions during this past century, however, has shown that this "Biblical Greek" was, in fact, used commonly. Result 3: David E Marlett Th.D.(2000), "The Word of God Live by It" http://www.wilderness-cry.net/tccn/2000/dec26.html "Koine Greek became the language of the Mediterranean world, including the Jews, after Alexander the Great conquered the World. Koine Greek means "common" Greek." Result 4: Michael Furlough (1997), professor of history at California State University, "The Hellenistic Period in World History", a pilot project for the American Historical Association http://www.theaha.org/pubs/burstein.htm "The Hellenistic period is conventionally said to extend from the accession of Alexander the Great to the throne of Macedon in 336 B.C"... "the culture of Hellenistic Egypt and the Near and Middle East was a colonial culture, that is, a simplified and incomplete version of Greek culture"... "Koine , the common language, a simplified form of Attic Greek, became the language of government, literary, and religious culture in the Hellenistic East and remained so throughout the rest of antiquity and well into the Middle Ages". You see ... they were still using the macedonian "Koine" for literature, in Byzantium (almost 1800 years later), while at the same time they were trying to teach you an alphabet for you bulgarian language :) Result 5: http://cctr.umkc.edu/user/fdeblauwe/berlin.html Dr. Andrea M. Berlin (1999) Assistant Professor, Department of Classical and Near Eastern Studies, University of Minnesota, For the Kansas City/Lawrence chapter of the Archaeological Institute of America. "Scholars have traditionally characterized the Hellenistic world as having a common, Greek-inspired culture. This culture has come to be known as the "Hellenistic koine," from the Greek word meaning "in common.""... "in the years after Alexander the Great's conquests reveals that a kind of koine did in fact encompass the region. The evidence consists of locally manufactured pottery intended for individual table settings and for cooking. This pottery copies Greek originals, and it began to be manufactured throughout the Near and Middle East quite suddenly after Alexander's appearance there. Thus this material reflects a widespread change that was experienced at all levels of society. Inhabitants of the Hellenistic East may be said to have had "a world in common," brought about and inspired by Alexander the Great himself." Maybe more than just a language :) Result 6: Link at the American National Comittee for Latin & Greek http://www.promotelatin.org/greek.htm The Greek language is one of the oldest written languages in the world. There are Greek texts dating to the end of the Bronze Age (called "Linear B" texts); to the Archaic Age (ca. 800-600 B.C.), called Ionic, Aeolic, and Ionian Dialects; to the Classical Age (500-300 B.C.), or Attic Greek; to the Koine, or Common Dialect (300 B.C. to A.D. 400);"... "Who was the Greek king who expanded, through conquest, Greek culture as far as northern India? Alexander the Great" Result 7: Theological content http://hcqsa.virtualave.net/dispell.html Greek (Language) Language of the Hellenes; dominant language of the world at the time of Christ due to the influence of Greek culture after the conquests of Alexander the Great. The Greek dialect "Koine" was the common language used in writing the New Testament. Result 8: Prof. Norman Perrin 1972-76. Link at the University of Chicago http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/overview-roman-world.html The New Testament is a product of the Hellenistic world (Greek Hellas, "Greece"), a world that came into being as a consequence of the conquests of Alexander the Great (356-323 B.C.E). When Philip II of Macedonia (northern Greece) was assassinated in 336, his brilliant and ambitious son, Alexander, only 20 years old, consolidated his power and then launched a campaign east-ward Alexander's conquests spread Hellenism in a vast colonizing wave throughout the Near East and created, if not politically, at least economically and culturally, a single world stretching from Gibraltar to the Punjab in India with Greek (koine) a lingua franca."... "he built a network of almost thirty Greek cities throughout the empire, a building program that was expanded by later Hellenistic rulers. These became enclaves of Greek culture. Here gymnasia, baths, and theaters were built. The upper classes spoke koine Greek, wore Greek dress, absorbed Greek learning, adopted Greek customs, and took part in Greek athletics." I guess you will support that Indians also spoke greek before alexander.. lol Result 9: Fred L. Horton, Jr., Kenneth G. Hoglund, and Mary F. Foskett (2003) Vocabulary of Biblical Studies, Link at Wake Forest University http://www.wfu.edu/~horton/r102/ho1.html "Koine Greek: "common." Used mainly in reference to the common Greek that developed throughout the ancient world following the conquests of Alexander the Great"..."The scholar responsible for the definition of the Koine and for recognition of its importance for biblical studies is Adolf Deissmann" Result 10: David L. Antion, Ph.D., Koine: The Language of the Roman Empire http://guardian-ministries.org/sabbathkoine.htm "Excavations all over the middle eastern world have discovered various materials from stone, metal, papyrus, wax, pottery on which were written the Greek language called koine or common Greek. This is the Greek forced on to the world by Alexander the Great when he conquered the known world." Result 11: The Greek Language at the UK Translexis company http://www.translexis.demon.co.uk/new_page_2.htm "Although the Macedonian court was thought of by other Greeks of the time as provincial and only half civilized, Philip seems to have been a man of culture and used his wealth to bring to his court only the best money could buy (among his imports was the philosopher Aristotle as tutor for the young Alexander!) and adopted the Attic dialect as the language of his empire. The far reaching effect of this was, for the first time, to replace the dialects with a standard national language. However the extent of the empire also meant many people whose native tongue was not Greek attempted to express themselves through the medium of the classical Attic dialect resulting in an erosion and simplification of the language and changes in pronunciation that remain until this day. This form of Greek is known as the common language or koine" I'll stop. I don't think that this site could host all of the results ;p I just spend 10 minutes to make a post with references and links to universities, major dictionaries, etc. You can't, Nobody agrees with you. What a surprise. Certainly they are just historians, linguists etc. So you wrote a fiction story "we know that macedonia ..." blah blah blah It's so easy for anyone to prove that you are a poor propagandist :) |
| Iolas | And since you will start to scream out "this is a global conspiracy", "these are the result of the greek 2,500-years old propaganda" etc. let's take a look at the original evindece. Let's say ... a random sample of the papyri in Oxford's Database. [img]http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/papyri/vol49/thumbnails/3505backth.jpg[/img] Large size http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/papyri/vol49/150dpi/3505back.jpg source page at oxford university http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/papyri/vol49/pages/3505.htm Private Letter: Papontos to Alexander In Papyrology Room, Ashmolean Museum, Oxford Papontos writes concerning the ownership and transportation of some sheepskins and red-dyed mats. Guess what ... their private letter in their own language.is written in ... Dorian Greek.:) |
| Iolas | Let's look one more [img]http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/Greece/GIBM1154Aa.jpg[/img] Large size http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/Greece/GIBM1154As.jpg source at page oxford university http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/CSAD/Images/300/Image391.html A proxenoi-list from the greek territories. (For non-macedonians 'Proxenoi' were the ancient diplomatic representatives between the city-states. e.g. Alcibiades was 'proxenos' of Sparta) Peloponnese, Boiotia, Phogkis and Lokris, Thessaly, Macedonia, Thrace and Asia Minor. Macedonia? with the greeks provinces? Surprise surprise! Ok I must admit it wasn't a 'random' sample :) |
| Iolas | At this point I would like to thank you for waking up the greek nationalists. For a century greek politicians were striving to hide that a part of our macedonia was lost. Now, everyone knows about it. If you are turks or jews ... my congrats, you are doing an excellent job for your country. If you are a bulgaro-'macedonians' ... you are just idiots :P Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is a Greek Territory [:D] Bye bye turkalbanobulgarians |
| deni | quote:A very large teritorry of todays so called country Greece was Macedonian Territory after the first balkan war when your greek faggets gypsies tryed to make the biggest counterfit in the hystory After the Second Balkan War, according to the Peace Contract signed in Bucharest on 10 August 1913, Macedonia was divided by the three neighbors; Greece received about 50 percent of the territory (Aegean Macedonia), Serbia (later the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and Kingdom of Yugoslavia) acquired about 40 percent (Vardar Macedonia), and Bulgaria ended up with about 10 percent (Pirin Macedonia). |
| deni | http://www.primitivebaptist.org/H.Bass/good_communication_htm.htm Every time he gave a Command such as "Right Face, Forward March," the only ones that did turn right and march forward were the Macedonians. He realized his tremendous problem – Communications… Again, it must be stressed, ALL these Greeks being put into a Common Army, posed a major problem, that, on the surface, seemed insurmountable. Can you see the communications problem? Only the Macedonians knew his language. All the Greeks did not understand Macedonian . |
| Boulgaroktonos | Good day to you all,some time since my last post.I hope this is going to be a conversation without swearing. If Turks were sure about the outcome of a war between Greece and Turkey,then, a war would have already been declared.After all,we are not the only ones who have problems with them.(Russia,Jordan,Syria,Bulgaria etc etc) HanAvitohol, do you really remember what happend when you came near Thessaloniki?Do you remember what happend during the 2nd Balkan war?You lost that war after fighting against us. Canmak ,about the pyramid ,I didn't knew this one.I have no reason not to believe you. Graf, i am not going to start a discussion with you as the only thing you know best is swearing.You are pathetic. BorisVm,sovereign nation???Which one???FYROM??? Yea....until we deside otherwise.After all,we already bought you so called country.We own you economically ,like it or not. Until next time......... |
| mafisKumA | It’s beyond me as to why most of you are living in the past and harbouring your forefathers grudges. Most of you strike me as intelligent, well educated young people. Ultimately it would be more beneficial to all if you focused your intelligence in coming up with solutions as how to amicably cohabitate as neighbours. Hatred breeds hatred. Unless this generation puts an end to such detestation there will be no peace for present or any future generations. HATRED and DISTRUCTION, are these what you all wish for your children[?][?][?][?][?] If there is to be any peace you have to stop acting like brainless politicians and become human beings with morals. P.S. I don’t see the significance of the pyramids in this debate, however the human race should be so lucky to survive as long as they have. |
| Strelec | quote:They now that fact, Deni! So well! And that's why they are afraid to accept our name. But, anyway, we can continue with arguments... During the reign of Alexander the Great, the Macedonians spoke their own native language. Though Alexander spoke also Greek, loved Homer, and respected his tutor Aristotle, there is much evidence that he hated the Greeks of his day. He thoroughly destroyed Thebes. His Asian empire is correctly called Macedonian, not Greek for he won it with an army of 35,000 Macedonians and only 7,600 Greeks. The Greeks have even distinguished themselves on the side of the Persians. For instance, at the battle of Issus, there were 30,000 Greeks on the side of the Persians to fight Alexander. Like Illirian and Tracian, ancient Macedonian was not recorded in writing. However, on the bases of about a hundred glosses, Macedonian words noted and explained by Greek writers, some place names from Macedonia, and a few names of individuals, most scholars believe that ancient Macedonian was a separate Indo-European language. Evidence from phonology indicates that the ancient Macedonian language was distinct from ancient Greek and closer to the Tracian and Illirian languages. |
| deni | some pics from Macedonian cities which today belong to a so called country named greece
KOSTUR
[img]http://www.makedonija.info/images/gallery/kostur.jpg[/img]
LERIN
[img]http://www.makedonija.info/images/gallery/lerin2.jpg[/img]
SOLUN
[img]http://www.makedonija.info/images/gallery/solun.jpg[/img]
PELLA
[img]http://www.makedonija.info/images/gallery/pella.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.makedonija.info/images/title.jpg[/img] |
| f9 | Even Pakistanis are thinking that Greeks are not at all Macedonians.Will be verry important to see Macedonians and Pakistanis genetics variations. Y-chromosomal DNA variation in Pakistan. Author: Raheel Qamar, Qasim Ayub, Aisha Mohyuddin, Agna Filed: 18/10/2002, 15:44:01 Source: American Journal of Human Genetics . May 2002 v70 Readers' Comments: (0) (REGARDING THE NATURE OF THE TOPIC) Three populations have possible origins from the armies of Alexander the Great: the Burusho, the Kalash, and the Pathans. Modern Greeks show a moderately high frequency of haplogroup 21 (28%; Rosser et al. 2000), but this haplogroup was not seen in either the Burusho or the Kalash sample and was found in only 2% of the Pathans, whereas the local haplogroup 28 was present at 17%, 25%, and 13%, respectively. Greek-admixture estimates of 0% were obtained for the Burusho and the Pathans, but figures of 20%-40% were observed for the Kalash (table 3). In view of the absence of haplogroup 21, we ascribe this result either to drift in the frequencies of the other haplogroups, particularly haplogroups 2 and 1, or to the poor resolution of lineages within these haplogroups, resulting in distinct lineages being classified into the same paraphyletic haplogroups. Overall, no support for a Greek origin of their Y chromosomes was found, but this conclusion does require the assumption that modern Greeks are representative of Alexander's armies. |
| krijes7 | i never thought much about greek-macedonian problem. i don't know what to think really.. i read all this, and am confused. why do people tell macedonian language is a bulgarian dualect? |
| krijes7 | quote:are todays macedonian slavik nation who came on balkan with the rest of slavik nations or are they direct the nation of alexandar? |
| deni | there is no "slavic nation" that conquered the ancient Macedonians (no battles , no arguments no historic facts) that is just a propaganda of the greeks, and the Western European countries.They (Macedonians) have lived here for milleniums. |
| graf | I think the word "slavic nation" should be banned |
| krijes7 | so should german, anglo-saxon, roman.. etc.. nobody talks of of one united slavic nation. it is only one root nation [;)] and noone answered my question.. |
| Costas | quote:Theres really not much to think about, Macedonia is Greek. |
| edlund | Dieselsx, what are your historical sources for this information? |
| Dieselsx | been around, read alot, both sides of the argument, fact is macedonians were not hellenic considered barbiarians, diff values they had a king not a democracy like Athenians,even army dress was different, list goes on - so what makes them greek? all you have is to argue they may have spoke greek well when Rome was the centre of the universe everyone spoke latin doesnt make them italian now?or put it another way most of the world speaks english now but where not all anglo saxon? but anyway it is known that no hellenic could understand what a macedonian was on about when they spoke in their own language-thus it could'nt have been greek.(see the old articles) far as im conerned and the more i read into it macedonians had diff politics, diff customs, diff language (more than diff dialiect)and were not liked because of this thats why they couldnt attend the olympics held only for hellenic |
| Byzantine | quote:Dear Deni and Strelets, I am glad to see with what confidence you mention what "they" know.I wonder if you are both satisfied by using texts which you purposefully alter to "prove" your point.Deni,if this is how you got the post you are responsible to cross check it to make sure its accurate,if you did'nt then you're an amateur. If you did (as I suppose since you have the source written above)then you have done nothing more than misrepresented a historical text,in other words propaganda.If I am wrong kindly explain why you left out parts of the text: The ORIGINAL text: Therefore he placed all these different (new paragraph) Greeks into a Common Army.Here is where Alexander ran into his greatest problem.Every time he gave Command such as "Right Face,Forward March,"the only ones that did turn right and forward march forward were the Macedonians.He realized his tremendous problem - communications... Again,it must be stressed,ALL the Different Greeks being put into a Common Army,posed a major problem,that,on the surface,seemed insurmountable.Can you see the communications problem? Only the Macedonians knew his language.All the other Greeks did not understand Macedonian Greek. 1)Therefore he placed all these Different Greeks into a Common Army 2)All the other Greeks did not understand Macedonian Greek. Why did you change "All the other Greeks did not understand Macedonian Greek" to "All the other Greeks did not understand Macedonian"? best regards, The Byzantine |
| deni | Vizantion , same shit , different packing it sounds better to me like the way I wrote it The main point is still the same . Only the Macedonians knew his language . excluding gleeks |
| Byzantine | quote:I'm sure it excluded all kinds of gleeks,Greeks however not.The author here quite clearly states Macedonian Greek.Therefore placing Macedonian as a Greek language.Interesting how you "missed" that huh! Try not making it so easy for me.Using old Tito school arguments tends to get boring after a while (5 decades old).Let's see some creativity. Byzantine |
| graf | abre grrk ili macedonian , in the eyes of GOD we are MACEDONIAN. while the grrk are turks |
| ozonce | Abe grci... samo sonuvajte... naskoro ke ima nekolku publikacii za toa koj e koj... |
| sgeorgio2003 | quote:READ YOUR REFERENCE HUGE TROLL AND TELL US WHY YOU DISTORDED IT!!!! |
| deni | I repeat : " Only the Macedonians knew his language " . That's enough evidence that he wasn't a greek . So you re saying " .. all the other gleeks didn't speak his language , only the macedonians spoke it. That's a huge contradiction . I ve changed the sentence because it's missunderstood. Is it possible One Nation to have to speak two totaly different languages , and still be a single Nation ?? ... Impossible .. Macedonians were Macedonians . Spartans , Athenians et c , etc were all Greeks. |
| Byzantine | quote: |
| Byzantine | quote:I agree Deni,so change the game! If you don't want to be confused when trying to decode the supposed meaning of the text refer to this for relief: Macedonian Greek. Nice and simple so not to confuse.Now be a good propagandist and find us another text to play with. By the way ever wonder why Phillip,Alexander,Olympia,Thesaloniki,Iraklea,Antigonos,Keleukis,Ptolomeos,are all Greek names? Or why Alexander's three generals Antigonos,Keleukis,Ptolomeos,always corresponded amongst themselves and with Alexander in Greek? Hmmmmm,very suspicious............. Try that on for size. Byzantine |
| Byzantine | quote:In both Bulgarian versions: Neeee, molim te,ushte publikacii! Mi e mnogo chudno.Albantsite pukaat segde a vie "publikuvate".Samo pasi da ne se umorish od tolku "publikuvanie". Neeee, te molia,oshte publikacii! Mnogo mi se chudi.Albantsite pukat siakade a vie "publikuvate".Samo pasi da ne se umorish od tolko "publikuvanie". Lavovi sho pravat? Oushte gladuvat bes pomosh ot nikoi? Vashiot patriotism sbori mnogo glasno nali? Lavovi kakvo pravat? Oshte gladuvat bes pomosh ot nikoi? Vashiot patriotism govori mnogo glasno nali? Abe mnogo golema raslika megiou Balgarski i "Makedonski". Straaaaashno! Posdravi, Posdravi, Byzantine |
| Byzantine | quote:Graf in the selo and Chushki in the sky, In the eyes of god you sold out your Orthodox faith for protection from the pope. You changed the Bible (a grave sin for true Christians)where'ever Alexander was refered to king of Greeks. You watched as Albanians burned your monasteries in the west,and wrote grafiti on the church in Matka. You even changed the epistle of Apostle Paul, to "Thesalonikeis", to "Soluntsi".(Your Tito priests never explained to you why Paul spoke to the Thesalonians in GREEK did they?) You gave your souls to communism and spit at God's face.Perhaps this is not the entity you should be relying on.We fought and died for our church,and you? If you read the Bible,a credible version,not the Tito modified and MOC accepted version,you will note with sadness that the only man to help Christ carry the cross to Golgotha was a Greek! So think again about the possibilities of "Divine favour". Byzantine |
| Astibus | Byzantine its funny you choose to name yourself after the east roman empire(which was not greek) you say paul spoke greek,ofcourse he did that was the common tongue ,like english is today ,what do you suggest he spoke to them?hebrew?aramaic? Do you claim Jesus as one of your own too? i mean Isus Hristos sounds like a greek name to me and im sure if they didnt know he was a jew you be screaming that he was greek. Stop trying to monopolize history, ive heard greeks claim that romans,illyrians and thracians were greeks this is bullsiht greeks themselves are not of one race not even the ancients im sorry to tell this to you and as to your claims of being the first to do anything eg. alphabet,philosophy those types of things etc. thats also bullshit look to the east there were a people who were called Sumerians they out did you by about 4000 years so get off your high horse and eat some maslinki you fuckin turcin. |
| graf | Artisbus kaj si bre ???? |
| HanAvitohol | Good job, Byzantine!!! We've been fighting a lot with your people in the past, but we have always respected each other. You said it all, what could I add to that?! Alexander the Great might have been Albanian, but those who now call themselves "makedonians", are othing else than Bulgarians. Alexander was not a Bulgarian, not even a Slav!!! Sorry, what was once, it will be again!!! Byzantiun, I hope the Greeks restore Konstantinopol some day! Hail!!! |
| acheritou | TO ALL OF YOU YOU ARE ALL INSIGNIFICANT SHITBBAGS. MACEDONIA IS GREEKA AND BY BEING HERE WILL NOT CHANGE THAT! + HELLENISM FOREVER |
| StormAngel | quote:Why don`t you blow my bags[?] You may think that we are insignificant but nobody gives a crap about your opinion.Nobody cares for your opinion around here so buzz off bustard.Kretenu hellasnika. Pozdrav![:)] |
| graf | acheritou u can sux my maso kure ehheheehheh |
| Maverik | Yet another fact, Why did the greeks fight against the Macedonians if they were the same people. Also there is record that because greeks hated the Macedonians about 50 000 of them were fighting on the side of Persia agains the armies of Alexander the Macedonian. He and his generals succseded to kill a big number of them. Another fact, how can you say that Macedonians were greek when they spoke different languages. This is simple to see from the words of the ancient macedonian that are found by now. Isn't a fact that because of that the Greeks use to refer to macedonians and all other people (Persians, Tracians etc.) who din't speak their language as barbarians????? |
| n/a | i don`t chare whai greek hage macedonian people bichouse people of grees i hage.... bye bye bye fucking people of grees!!![xx(] |
| f9 | For all so called "Hellenistic" bulshit by from Amazon.com and reed these books: Ancient Macedonians: Differences Between The Ancient Macedonians and The ... by J.S. Gandeto In the Shadow of Olympus by Eugene N. Borza Or read some of that on: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org By the way Greeks are not at all Hellens.Grand,grand...,mother of Greeks have been Pandora2.In 1810 Neohellens have been maked from Albanians,Vlavs and Rumelians and some Macedonian Patriarhist.From these today are Neogreeks.Macedonian question is on the break point of one artificial nation.If Macedonian get their right in Neogreece they will open the Pandora box full of worms who will eat the false fabric of contemporary Greece. |
| StormAngel | quote:Alex,per kaj nauci Angliski[?][:(] Sto ne im pises na Makedonski da te razberat. Pozdrav![:)] |
| graf | lelel AlexNo1 tvoj english e kako mu makedonisk ehehhehe |
| Dieselsx | why do the greeks keep saying maco where hellenic? hellenics were democratic with athens as the centre of power macos had a king and had no association or allegence to athenes.at most macos were anti-hellenic |
| asal | quote:No, they had many centres of power. Athens was the centre of the athenians, Sparta - of the spartans and so on. |
| asal | Not actually, the language that the ancient greeks spoke is related to modern greek. But it's true that there was no united greek country. |
| asal | quote:Yes. This is what every historian will tell you. It doesn't matter if he is from your neighbouring countries - A.B.G.S. , or is he from the USA, or from EU. |
| Strelec | really!? |
| dejan | Sto im e na ovije grci? Gaden grk! i Gadna grkinja! Po lesno e da zboram angliski:) Macedonian~{!/~}s did not steal greek history, it is they who stole it! They are the bigger country and have fought so hard to get their false point across the earth! Makedonija is an ancient biblical country! Did anyone know that when Phillip II tomb was found, the ancient Macedonian flag of the Sun was found on him! This clearly states that he is Macedonian. Alexander the Great had golden hair and blue or green eyes. I have never seen a Greek or heard of a Greek having green or blue eyes or having blonde hair. They all have plain pattern less brown eyes and black or brown hair. Ugh! I read in a Macedonian newspaper here that the Greek government gave Macedonia some millions of Euro~{!/~}s. Why? To keep us quiet on the whole thing because they know that we are right! I guess we don~{!/~}t agree about Alexander the Great, what about Cleopatra VII? She was not truly Egyptian but Macedonian. Her family was Macedonian I think her father was a descendent of one of Alexander~{!/~}s generals, I think it was Ptolemy~{!-~} Cleopatra VII knew how to speak ancient Macedonian and other languages also. She lived most of her life in Alexandria, which Alexander the Great created himself. She~{!/~}s famous and she~{!/~}s Macedonian, she was well known in the ancient world, especially to Caesar, whom she had a child with! She had a love affair with Mark Antony. She was also the last Pharaoh of Egypt and was Macedonian. I~{!/~}d like to see a Greek tell us that she wasn~{!/~}t Macedonian, because some records indicate that she had blue eyes and blonde hair but then others say that she had brown eyes and brown hair. All the Macedonians want is what was theirs during the Wars in the 1900~{!/~}s! Everything up to Thessaloniki is Macedonian, as well as some portion of South Western Bulgaria. If organizations such as the UN or the EU didn~{!/~}t exist, what was once Macedonian would be ours. I was in the library once and in this book I read that the Turk rulers who came into most of the Balkan, said that everything in the Balkan is Macedonian. If only the Greeks would just accept or at least stop this sort of racist acts towards us, we could at least come to some sort of conclusion. Ej oste nesto, vije site go znajete Goce Delcev? On e roden na februari 4, isto koga jas sum roden hehehehehe;) Samo dobro sto mojte ne mi dale ime Goce:p |
| asal | Âèñòèíñêîòî èìå íà Ãîöå å Ãåîðãè Íèêîëîâ Äåë÷åâ:) |
| Ceki | 2. Do you know about an agreement between serbia, greece and bulgaria in Bucharest which ended a Balkan war only because then it was decided who gets what from Macedonia? Did you know that in that agreement there was a clause that states a return of the taken territories? Something like England with Hong Kong. [:0][:0][:0][:0] Please tell me more about this clause, where can i get the whole agreement and all the clauses( maybe they deleted some after some time, maybe the one you mentioned) on the net. |
| Dieselsx | actually your right about that the turks did document that macos existed and even held census which is why the turks still to this very day recognise that macos exist, they have the proof |
| vmro | quote:macos ????? ova nekoj nov izraz, neshto kako nigga??? c c c c c |
| Thunder from down under | hahhahha znaci makedonci ,skrateno obicno vo Avstralia se koristi Maco za makedonec a vo kanada mislam e "maks" e skratenka za Makedonci toa samo skratenka i ima dosta pocit ne e los zbor ko ke mu recis na nekoj I am a Maco isto kako da si mu rekol jas sum gospod :)) se izgovara "mesooj" taka nesto :) |
| ozonce | quote:e toa zvuchi kako ovie kamionite mak, neshto golemo, jako, mokno[:D][:D][:D] trebashe da stavam navodnici nanekolku zbora ama aj... |
| vmro | quote:Svativ, samo shto mene nekako ne mi lici na ubavo, mada... shto znam, sepak fala za objasnuvanjeto [:D] |
| dimkoska | Dobra Makedonska yahoo grupa koja izvestuva za politickite nastani e MacPolitics. |
| Thunder from down under | hahhahahaha Strelec abe asal a koj gi plajka tie historians koj gi sponzorira jas da mu dadam 5 milioni dolari jna nekoj historian ima da pisiva i da kazuva deka Kinezite se bugari po poteklo sega imaat historians takvi kako so velis ti se prateni i plateni od grcija da odat vo avganistan da istrazuvat demek i posle normalno koj plajka ima pravo da kazi so ke bide napisano a sto ne |
| asal | Ne mi e po dusha da ja branam grckata kauza, no se raboti se pak za svetska istorija. Eve shto pishuva Encyclopedia Britannica za "hellenic culture": http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=109190&tocid=0&query=hellenic%20culture&ct= - Alexandria - Once the greatest city of the ancient world and a centre of Hellenic scholarship and science, Alexandria was the capital of Egypt from its founding by Alexander the Great in 332 BC to AD 642, when it was subdued by the Arabs. It is now the second largest city, the centre of a major industrial region, and the chief seaport of Egypt. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=108636&tocid=0&query=hellenic%20culture&ct= - Hellenistic Age - in the eastern Mediterranean and Middle East, the period between the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC to the conquest of Egypt by Rome in 30 BC. |
| Strelec | koga veke se povikuvas na Encyclopedia Britannica, dali znaes sto pisuva tamu vo vrska so makedonskoto prasanje vo Bugarija? i izjasni se dali se' veruvas sto pisuva tamu, ili pak si pravis sopstvena selekcija vo odnos na toa sto ti odgovara, a sto ne!?:) |
| asal | http://www.gov.mk/kultura/eternal.htm Koj plakja na ovie lugje da pishuvat vakvi neshta - "science has not yet revealed direct links between the ancient and present-day Macedonians" |
| Strelec | quote:asal... vrati se so postovite nazad i ke vidis deka ti istoricarite gi spomna vo kontekst na "hellenic culture" pred vekovi i vekovi... a ovoj link nisto ne kazuva po toa prasanje... ili svesno vovlekuvas konfuzija kako metod za nadmudruvanje!? |
| asal | Samo ubavi raboti pishuva tamu vo vrska so makedonskoto prashanje. Jas ne nameriv nishto neredno. Citirai ti neshto. Inaku, pishi "Samuel macedonia" i chitaj:) |
| Strelec | ti povtorno selekcii pravis...!!! znachi, pred da citiram nesto, izjasni se prvo dali cvrsto i nedvojbeno veruvas vo Encyclopedia Britannica... i se' toa sto go pisuva tamu dali si podgotven da go prifatis kako fakt? i da znaes deka se zacleniv tamu so annual membership, taka sto ke bidam vo moznost da pastiram ovde razni raboti i da te povikuvam na komentar...:) |
| asal | aj pastiraj:) ili zakletva chekash? Vo eden drug topic zboruvash za Brailsford kako on da ne bil golemobugarin. Samo deka i on e bugarash:) Mozhe i so encyclopedia britannica da e vakva situacijata. |
| Thunder from down under | abe asal i taja britanika luge e pisuvale na krajot od textot obicno gi pisuva reference od kade mu e textot vnesen vo britanika, ne e nikoj kriv za toa so se pisuva samo makedonija nasa sto nikogas ne se zainteresirala i da se pobuni ili dokazi na drugi deka toa so se pisuva ne e tocno ama sega e malu kasno ,mnogu zafateni bea so kradenje, kako sega na primer dali si slusnal ministerstvoto za kultura so e dali ima nekoj interest za filmot so se snima za aleksandar deka ke go prikazat kako grk? ne ne gi interesira a veruvam dek amozat dosta pritisok da mu dadat na organizatorite na toj film. Strelec aj napraj mu uste ednas "Really?" hahhahahha |
| greek | Some historical facts... Herodotus preserved what the Macedonian King Alexander I (498-454 BC) said to the Athenian ambassadors during the Persian wars: "Athenians...I, too, am of ancient Greek stock and I would not like to see Greece enslaved." This was the Macedonian who, after the Battle of Plataea (479 BC) was honoured by the Athenians "as one of the Greekest of Greeks" and, as a Greek, was crowned victor at Olympia. What does this mean? Macedonia was a Greek teritory as Athens, Sparta, Corinth ect! Different cities- states but one country. Thats why some had democracy and some had monarchy. And thats why some times they were in war. "The prince of Greece shall come..." wrote the prophet Daniel. And the Jews themselves, as is mentioned in the Old Testament, could see that "the rule of the Greeks" was leading them "directly to (assuming) the Greek character". Prophet Daniel and the Jews are talking about the prince of Greece!You need more? One last, because i don't have time for uneducated propagandists: Alexander defeated the Persian forces that were gathered on the Asian side of the River Granicus. After this victory Alexander sent three hundred suits of Persian armor back to Athens. The message that went with them read, "Alexander, the son of Philip, and the Greeks, except the Spartans, have won this spoil from the barbarians of Asia" The Greeks?Hmmmmmmm!Do I have to explain that? Alexander himself was talking about Greeks. Not Macedonians and Greeks!Because they were all Greeks! He just mentions the Spartans because they didn't follow. You see they believed (according to studies) that a panhellenic (greek) army should have a Spartan for leader. Stop trying to steal part of our history! I am sorry that your history is poor, but stealing will not solve your problem! |
| f9 | Another Anatolian ortodox turk think of himself that he is Hellen...[xx(] |
| graf | greek u are in the wrong fourm |
| Thunder from down under | F9, Ne ti e grev taka so mu prajs na pederite be hahahhahhahahhah grota se :)))))))) |
| f9 | Thunder from down under imas privatna poraka! |
| Hellas | This is for all you yugoslavians that have no heritage of your own. I am truly sorry for your lack of history and your need to feel the pride that i can feel as a Greek. You should all feel extremely fortunate to live in a region formerly occupied by the greatest race, the Greeks. You should also feel ashamed of yourselves to stoop to a level where you would think that stealing someone else's history is an accepted act. Let me give you a brief history lesson. In ancient Greece, Greece was never united as one nation, until the coming of King Philip of Macedon. This is where some of you tend to get excited...yes it does say "Of Macedon" but if you would have opened up a history book you would have seen that that is how they differentiated between the different city-states. If any of you would have read the Iliad you would have noticed the kings referred to as King " " of " ". For example King Meneleus of Sparta or King Agammemnon of Mycenae. You saying that Alexander was not Greek based on this is as ignorant as saying that Agammemnon and Meneleus were not of the same race due to the fact they were from different city-states. Macedonia was a city-state of Greece at its northern border. I forget who but one of you intelligent people made the genious remark of i've never seen a Greek with blond hair or blue eyes...I am sorry to remove you from your little box of a world because i am a blond haired blue eyed Greek and so is much of my family. So there goes that argument. And once again if you ever read the Iliad you would see that Achilles was a man with wavy long hair and blue eyes. Do any of you remember who Alexander believed he was a descendant of??? Thats right, Achilles...Do any of you want to argue that Achilles was also not Greek?? Another fact is that Alexander's god's were the twelve god's of Olympus. His mother's name was a Olympia, which was obviously named after the ancient Greek city of Olympia. Phillipas was also a Greek name that can be found in historical records in other parts of Greece. Why would King Phillip hire Aristotle, a Greek philosopher to tutor his son if he was not Greek himself? Why would Alexander spread the views and ideals of the Greek world if he was not Greek himself? Why would he give his horse a Greek name, Bucephalus? All these questions make it very difficult to even fathom that Alexander was not Greek. |
| BorisVM | quote:Have you ever read about Demosthenes' rhetoric against the "barbarian Macedonians?" [:D] You are lucky you got into the European Union before we did so you can write posts like this and be all high on your pseudo history. When we join the Union, you will not only have to recognize the substantial Macedonian minority still living in Greece, but also return all the land and property that was stolen from the Macedonians in the second half of the last century. This should piss you off even more: Macedonia is Greek right? This is what you nincompoops have been preaching for the past 12-13 years. By the same token, Greece is Macedonian, which is more to my liking. |
| BorisVM | quote:Something is wrong with this argument. Hmm, let me see. Hellas is blond or blue eyed. Hellas is Greek. Therefore all Greeks are blond or blue eyed? [:D] I've never seen an Albino Greek. [8D] |
| Legal-Eagle | Hellas my dear ill-informed misguided child. I am neither Greek nor Macedonian but have a blood line from both. Do I feel the desire when i wake up every morning to have an identity crisis? NO! Being an Australian, and hence totally possessing an unbiased opinion, it amazes me the lengths that you "Greek" people go, in order to identify yourselves as "Greek". Not that I am denying what and who you are. Heaven forbid that would extremely foolish of me. That said, it still concerns and puzzles me greatly on why you are so insistant about your heritage. A intelligent informed person, would state their "opinion"(used loosely) without insult and most definitely after much consideration of all the facts and not just selective propaganda. You in my "opinion" have fallen short of this task. Your patriotic efforts are admirable, but your approach is extremely inappropriate and appears as a desperate attempt in convincing the masses and yourselves. Seeing through the eyes of another (that being me) I feel as though you have grave insecurities about your culture, history, heritage and race. Please dont take out your frustrations on the Macedonian people, they have been violated enough at your mercy and the rest of the world. They are forever being placed on the back foot and are having to justify themselves, purely because i feel that they are slighty in the minority and you as a nationality are flexing your muscles, or maybe even trying to ease your conscience knowing damn well that you are the culprits of many, of what i consider to be, inhumane acts of gross misjustice. By no means am i a scholar of history, nor am i totally ignorant. That said, ancient history features heavily in the syllabus of the Australian cirriculum in our schools. The one fact (as per your greatest and most notable "Greek" authors) that stood out was the many references to Phillip and Alexander as "Barbaric Macedons". Now i am not here to debate nor justify that maybe Phillip and Alexander were lacking in social etiquette or acceptable behaviour by the "Greeks" of that time, but the fact remains, references have been made to them being NOT of "Greek social acceptability". Why the sudden change of heart? Please explain. I find your point on why Phillip chose "greek" scholars for Alexander totally invalid. I am Orthodox and I attended a Private Girls Catholic School, does this mean that my parents had a underlying desire to be Catholic? NO! They wanted the best education for their daughter. So as a responsible parent Phillip was affording his son the knowledge of the undeniably great "Greek" scholars of the time. Hence the above thought process renders your comment and attempt to establish Phillip and Alexander "Greek" as NULL and VOID. I could go on till the cows come home, but i am quietly confident that he/she who laughs last laughs the hardest/longest/sweetest or any other adjective your care to insert. Though to this point justice has fallen short of its duty, I have seen how the "Australian Greeks" have used their power of constituency to strong arm the Australian government into siding with your theory. Though this is never acknowledged publicly, however there are blatant displays of generous government funding towards the "Greek community". I am pleased to say, that the funds are slowly but surely being distributed evenly to the Macedonian community. I believe that the voice of the Macedonians will be heard and resound through the world in time to come. A dream that I am sure that will come to fruition for the Macedonians in Macedonia and those extended to the four corners of the globe. I could keep bantering, but i believe that i am chipping my nail polish for no apparent reason, the word "ignorance" keeps coming to the forefront of my mind. In closing, I dont want to appear as though I am gloating, but I hope you "Greeks" like HUMBLE PIE as much as your baklava and Kalamata Olives, for I sincerely believe that you will be served up a seven course silver service meal of it. Bon appetit![:D] |
| dejan | quote:I was that person that said that about greeks not having blue eyes or blonde hair. So..........because you have blue eyes and blonde hair, does that mean that the argument is finished? Because you have blonde hair and blue eyes, that means everyone else in Greece does too? hahahahahahaha lele, i don't even believe that you have blue eyes or blonde hair. I had a Greek teacher, (she wasn't rude to me) and she had brown eyes black hair, but the thing is with most greeks is that their brown eyes, they're just dull brown eyes, no patterns or anything. And how could have Ancient Macedonia be like another city/state of Greece? When they spoke a different language? Oh and all those greek names that you mentioned, well they were once Macedonian type names, slavic, like the cities near thessaloniki, all Macedonian but you people changed them so that they could become greek. Just accept that Alexander the great was a Macedonian with a Macedonian father. Aristotle was Macedonian and so was Cleopatra VII. |
| Legal-Eagle |
quote:After great deliberation, I now understand why there is so much confusion based on the "nationality" and "heritage" of Phillip and Alexander. Being of a legal background i understand how important and imperative it is to any argument to cross your "T" and dot your "i", and how easy the misplacement of a comma or fullstop can alter a meaning. But what i would like to point out here without any real specific reference to the above quote is that, how much of history can be altered or misinterpreted when it is translated from and ancient language to modern language? a scary thought isnt it? As you keep reading and debating the issue just keep that interesting point in mind. Moving right along. It has suddenly occured to me that the Greek people were so proud of the achievements and were in awe of both father and son that the "Greek" people proclaimed them as "GREEK". Obviously they had great diplomacy skills and did not want to disappoint. Afterall, didnt i read somewhere that the "greeks" were clammering all over themselves to be bent over and (insert profanity)by Alexander, (god bless his little soul he had a little thing for the boys, and more courage to him for coming out of the closet in those days) or maybe someone told me, or better still i read it in a history book written in the 20th century. WOW, i wonder if i should treat it as gospel. So if the Macedonians can learn to live with the fact that Alexander was a gay bladder, a poofta or a fag, why cant you learn to live with the fact that he was NOT "greek"? (all said with tongue in cheek and without intent to offend the Macedonians) Therefore, i can honestly say that the "GREEK" people can be forgiven for the mistaken identity of Philip and Alexander. I suppose the analogy that comes to mind is the one about Mel Gibson a great "Australian Actor", but the irony is that Mel was born in Peekskill, New York, USA of American parents attended school in America and then emigrated to Australia in 1968. Studied fine arts and drama in Australia (and probably conquered a lot of aussie women in his travels) and we adopted him as our own. But there is no denying that he is definitely AMERICAN by heritage if not by nationality .... get the point now. Dear fellow "GREEKS", i am probably one of the very few that will pardon you for the confusion that you have had to endure for many years, i hope the light has come on for you now and you can see things for what they really are, and not for what you long them to be. Cheers! |
| MakedonskoMomice | all those bloody greeks..... alexander the great was MACEDONIAN, not greek because his dad was macedonian, and his mum was greek, and if anyone tries to tell you different, tell them to get lost[;)] all macedonians stick together,we macedonians will regain what was once rightfully ours MACEDONIANS FOREVER! |
| Byzantine | quote:Hey Buddy, Beyond all the "very interesting" historical documents that our teenage friends here offer as arguments from texts peculiarly enough all of which written in Greek I would like to offer some pointers for our more hawkish friends: 1)We are a country (Greece)continiously expanding since the first revolution in 1821. 2)Our modern Republic has a greater GDP than Ukraine,Ex-Jugoslavia,Romania,Bulgaria,and Albania combined.For details kindly refer to the Economist. 3)Our military strength has been designed to keep Turkey at bay and our foreign policy to keep Turkey out of the EU.In both cases has suceeded. 4)As of this summer there will be TWO Greek countries that can veto in the EU.Greece is one Cyprus is the other. 5)We own the following assets in FYROM: a)The only refinery in the country "OKTA" b)The only grain mills in the country "Jito Lux" c)25% of the Makedonska Telekomunikatsia d)100% of the second mobile operator "Cosmofon" e)The distillery and bottlers of the top beers "Skopsko" and Coka Cola. f)Greek companies own the biggest cell phone retail chain "Germanos" and Supermarket chain "VERO". e)One of the biggest Banks "Stopanska" is owned by National Bank of Greece. f)And as of next year expect Eletro Stopanstvo na Makedonia to be purchased by Greek state power company. As I'm getting tired I'll leave out hundreds of other smaller investments. Moral of this economic story is that we own the lion's share of this country's assets. Politically,Turkey feels the pressure from the potential of two Greek countries in the EU and how that will limit their chances even more of entering the EU. So,lets see here.Turkey can't overcome Greek oposition for EU entry and FYROM will? Common let's be realistic shall we. Propaganda: For the next year the world will be watching epic films where by ancient Greek culture will hit the big screen Hollywood style! Troy: Brad Pit is a Greek hero called Achiles Alexander the Great:Colin Ferol will be a Greek general who as the movie "promo" writes "believes the Greeks are the greatest nation in the world"! Gates of fire: Bruce Willis as Leonidas will lead the Spartans in a glorious and heroic Greek victory against the Persians. Put all this together,include the fact that the Kosovo issue is to open in 2005 and think how bad things will be for FYROM and how good things will be for you. No,none of this was luck people, we faught every step of the way to get where we are.And it's nothing compared to where were going! If Greece really wanted FYROM's destruction we could very easily have stayed out of your privatization let your economy deteriorate in fast forward and then deliver the death blow by not signing the stability pact which pretects the Sovereingty of your borders as you yourselves cannot. So my Slavic friends kindly consider the above and think before you utter extremely naive opinions. Byzantine |
| Byzantine | quote:Dear legal eagle, I would like to address some of the points you put forward here which are to an extent valid but contradictory as well. 1)Being an Australian and hence totally possessing an unbiased opinion, I doubt that being from Australia is a criteria for unbiased opinions.Both communities exist in Australia in big enough numbers to provoke through their immediate contact with you a bias,be it positive or negative. As such I don't think that this is a valid point.After all,I'm from Canada,does that in itself mean I share the same objectivity? 2) I don't know exactly which Greeks you are refering to when discussing patriotic or the flip side nationalist sentiment.There is however a difference on how Greeks express their patriotism or nationalism depending on wether they are living in Greece or as an imigrant abroad. By this I mean that the Greek imigrant in his/her 50's and over being less educated expresses a kind of nationalism which stems from a)a basic patriotism compunded by a strong sense of distance and nostalgia. b)a limited education attended to in the days of WW2 when the nation state was identified along more racial lines and was at war. c)a will do distinguish oneself from the "other" communities often a defense mechanism in Greek culture which all this said and done allows Greek culture to keep basic parts of it's culture and assimilate at much slower speeds than others. 3)As to why we are so insistant on our heritage,the answer is rooted in our history.In fact we are not a race,all those who argue the opposite are simply influenced by western european style nation ideology of the previous century.What identifies a Greek is above all the Greek Orthodox faith and tradition and equally the Greek language.Our heritage is who we are.The fact that my parents (immigrants themselves)can read an inscription on a slab of marble written over 2000 years ago,or 1000,or 500,or 100, cannot but bond you with the past and give you a sense of continuity. This is not something new.We have drawn on the same sense of heritage during WW2,WW1,the Greek revolution,the fall of Konstantinople,the change of Greek from Latin as the official language of the Eastern Roman empire during the reign of Emperor Heraclios etc.To make a long story less long you can find identical expresions century by century that date back to the City States of ancient Greece. I don't think this is unreasonable.I have observed similar cultures among Jews,Labanese,Iranians (persians),etc.Simply said our heritage is our identity,who we are who we were and who we can be.Historically Greeks at their best and their worst charted on a timeline. 4)Patriotic effort admirable but inapropriate. This issue can be divided both in political,historical,and economic terms. Politically and Economically,I would have to say you're right as far as the early nineties are concerned.Greece back then was in the midst of a bad economic situation and a politically unstable situation.So our then prime minister did choose to save his hide by diverting attention from the economic situation to a new threat.The threat was inexistent in substance but existent in theory. In substance, I mean the idea that this little republic was going to annex northern Greece was obsurd.However living in Skopje back then I do remember the following which simply played into the hands of Greek nationalists: a)Massive circulation of maps with the map of the R.O.Macedonia extending to Thesaloniki and including all of Greek Macedonia. b)Mr. Georgievski shouting in his political campaign "our next conference will be in Solun" c)The fact that in the constitution of R.O.M.Northern Greece was treated as an occupied teritory to be liberated. Let's just say that both sides in the midst of instability where not in the mood for cordial relations. Today,most insecurities that existed back in the early ninetees have decreased or disapeared all together.That is evident mostly in the new generation of urban Greeks.But then again the country is many times wealthier,influencial,and stronger. As such you find unilateral motions from the Greek goverment offering gradual passes and citizenships for all ethnic groups that were expatriated during WW2.Something no politician would have dared a decade ago. This is a clear indication that the people in Greece are feeling more secure in their future and their country's in general.This is something that does not exist equally among the imigrant Greeks abroad who prefer for some reason to remeber the Greece of 20 - 40 years ago. However it is necesary to separate insecurities with a strong sense of heritage. 5)Social acceptability of the Macedonians among the Greek city states. You are right to remember this conflict,however it was not between Greeks and Macedonians,it was between Athens and it's allies vs Macedon. In all accuracy the Athenians and the spokesman of the Periclean camp Dimosthenes,made fun on the Macedonians on two counts.The first was that they spoke a Greek dialect that seemed funny to the Athenians.But keep in mind here that the same could be said of the dialect of the Greeks of Syracuse then or of the Cypriot dialect today vs that of Northen Greece. The other was the fact that Macedon had a monarchy and Dimosthenes was trying to group all the Greeks into the "free" democratic camp.At the same time you must note that this was the policy of one party in Athens and not of the opposition.There was a developing trend within Athenian society to consider that the bickering among the city states was useless and the time of Greek unification was unavoidable. After all (adressing your next point)Greek culture in Macedon did not limit itself to Philip hiring Aristotle to train Alexander,it goes further than that.Philip himself considered that he was desended from the royal house of Argos.This is why you do not see either the Spartans nor the Corinthians rejecting the Macedonians as Greeks.Furthermore while it can be argued that Macedon used Greek as a tool with which to conduct their foreign relations,they also used it as their own language.All documents sent not only from Alexander to the Persian emperor but also sent from Alexander to his generals and governers (Parmenion,Celeukis,Ptolomeos etc)were in Greek.Poets,philosophers,engineers,officers,all used the Greek language with which they communicated with each other. While every empire accepts the use of the people it conquers as a second language in order top rule the masses,they however use their own language in their own public office as a reflection of their own peoples' culture.But no empire has been known to use as it's official and internal administrational office the language of the conquered people.If this was the case as unique as it may sound then the same policy extended to a more populous and vast Persia would mean that Alexander's governors of this teritory should have used Persian and not Greek. 6)Greek lobbying for whatever cause. The Greek lobby cannot be accused of serving Greek interests because that is it's reason of existence. You must keep in mind here that the Greek lobby always presses any government for more funding for it's cause.But even if tomorow the Australian government decided not to give any money,the Greek lobby would still have imense resources with which to persue it's interests. Just a pointer here but 40% of the european shipping assets belong to Greek shipping tycoons who donate vast amounts of money to the Patriarch of Constantinople,not to mention pro Greek Australian,American parties etc. The power of the Greek lobby in Hollywood will also be aparent through (George Lucas)in the three films comming up Troy,Alexander the Great,and Gates of fire.So while one can argue as to who is right in this issue,who is by far the most powerfull in every way possible is not up for debate. Just ask Henry Kisinger,he never hid his dislike for Greeks yet this much even he aknowledged. Common Question: So if you guys are so powerfull why haven't you managed to get your way with the name issue? This has nothing to do with either communities.If you read some American foreign policy books published on this issue you will see that Greece and to an extent part of the EU, and the United States do not see eye to eye on the issue of ROM,and here is the great irony. The Americans want to be able to limit European integration as such they use avery crisis to create conflicting interests.In our region (the balkans)this translates to influence in Bulgaria,Romania,Croatia,Albania,and ROM.If they can influence Greece fine if not they can then isolate Greece from the north with influence all along the northern border. You will note that the US is grouping Croatia,ROM,and Albania into the same timeframe for NATO membership.How this makes sense given the current scenario is up to each of us to interpret. Another more immediate example which I have never seen here mentioned is that during the negotiations between Mitsotakis and Gligorov way back then for the name under the mediation of Cyrus and Vans the solution was found and the name was agreed to be Republic of Slavic Macedonia.If that was the case any discusion today of the founding nation of this republic from the Albanians would have been predestined and settled.It was accepted by Gligorov and Mitsotakis and the European intermediate,but it was rejected by the Americans as it was not time yet for the solution. (whatever that meant) The Georgievski government used apeasement to the Americans to in turn flaunt their new found "power" towards Greece from the big brother which got them an American financed and trained guerilla force of Kosovar Albnanians who accomplished the linguistic and educational segregation of the country Oh,and my favorite,a president "Traikovski" who was educated in Carolina,is a protestant and gave 1/3 of the country away for free. You may have noticed that Greek foreign policy does not seek to identify its northenr neighbor as occupied territory to be liberated,or considers the locals ethnic Greeks.All of the other neighbours seek either the western part of the country (ethnic Albanians)or the eastern side of the country (Bulgaria)cliaming that all Slavs of this republic are brainwashed ethnic Albanians,or the Serbs which claim all Orthodox Slavs as being Serbian Orthodox and thus Serbian. 1)Despite the fact that we are the ones who started the whole process of signing the agreement for the sovereignty of borders as they currently exist as opposed to the Americans who have at times circulated maps that would reflect a more "ethnic character" in the balkans to promote "stability".(Kosovo?) 2)Despite the fact that we were the ONLY ones investing in a country which the CIA and the American pentagon have defined as a "non feasible entity" at a time when others wouldn't even think of it.And when I say investment I don't mean bying one something,I mean year to year strategic investment that in the case of segregation or war the losses would be in the billions. Instead we could have just stayed out of it and supported the Albanian insurection in Kosovo and Tetovo like the Americans and the europeans and then just buy the remnants of a bankrupt country. I get the impresion that the public opinion would not be any worse in ROM than it is now,I wonder why we didn't do it? Just some food for thought. best regards, Byzantine |
| nemo | to all greeks you have stolen the four elements from zoro-astro religion from Persia the fire, the earth, the water and the ear |
| n/a | Samo ima edna vistina samo ima edna Makedonia. [:)] |
| BorisVM | quote:Well, as much as I hate to admit this, there is nothing in this post to argue against, because these are all facts. If there is someone to blame, its ourselves. |
| Legal-Eagle | Byzantine I have just read your previous post, and i promise to reply all in due course. Please dont use the phrase I would like to address some of the points you put forward here which are to an extent valid but contradictory as well valid but contradictory huh? Unfortunately it will take me a great deal of time to write a reply and the thought has crossed my mind whether in composing it should i contact a publishing company. Just to reinterate, i can and have remained unbiased. I am AUSTRALIAN, and with all due respect to the Macedonians on this forum, I do admire and enjoy aspects of their culture, but i under NO circumstances have an inkling of patriotism towards their country. The same can be said for the Greek culture that i have adopted, nor do i feel any sentiment towards Greece. So hence, i am most definitely UNBIASED. Watch this space ..... to be continued! |
| Boulgaroktonos | quote:xaXAAXaxAXAxaXaxXAXAxAXAXAxAXaxa Do you believe that or you are just trying to make us laugh? We are lucky because we got into EU before you did?? As if you will ever be able to get into EU!!!!!XaxaXaxAXaxAXaxAXaxA And what was that? Greece is Macedonian?You mean that you are going to wage war against us to achive that?xaAaXxAXaxAXAxxAXaxX And how exactly are you going to do that?You are going to tickle us to death and then occupy Greece??????? xaXxAXaxaxXAXaxAXAxaXaxAXaxAxa Oh man.It's been years since i laughed that much.......... And you wrote that in order to piss us off?you are ridiculous. |
| dejan | Been years? You must have lived a depressing life.....sad:( Poor you. |
| graf | Boulgaroktonos the only reason why Bulshitria is in the EU is because your country has cheap whores. They are your countries biggest export ahahah |
| dejan | omg graf:p Bulgaria isn't in the EU yet, they join in 2007? |
| Boulgaroktonos | Yea and guess what,the whores are albanian,russian and skopian.That is why they are cheap.Thanks to them we can export cheap whores. BTW in my opinion all balkan countries must enter the EU.Bulgaria and Romania can and will enter the EU because they achieved a good economy plus its in our,and their benefit if they do so.But i think that FYROM will never be able to enter EU.Now its not me saying that FYROM will not enter the EU,check the CIA FACTBOOK,compare what you got with what all the other candidates got and you will get the idea. In order to continue with th ediscussion.Please tell me some ancient Macedonian words and pls give me also the origin of those words.Also pls give me some ancient Macedonian names with their meaning/origin. E.X. What Alexander means in Macedonian,or what Fillipos means in Macedonian,or anything else.I am sure you will be able to do that since ancient Macedonian is understandable by all of you. |
| dejan | quote:No sorry, i don't think we can pursue this 'ediscussion' (if that's what you call it) You should check the CIA world fact book and it tells you where you great grandparents came from! :o sorry but it is the truth TURK! If Macedonia was still in it's old territory (aegean greeece and pirin bulgaria) cock tards like you wouldn't be touching us:) lick someone's choad you choad rooter. Oh and in order for this disussion to fuck up, why don't you get numerous links that we won't bother to look at! wow! |
| volleyballina | quote:Hey, hey hey, first of all, Where did YOUR grandparents come from? oh.. wait... you don't know... that's right... 'cause u got no history. [:(] ohhhh... what now? why r u getting all offencive about this? If you really believe Macedonia even has an "old territory" then ur very wrong... whose language did you ppl steal... Bulgarian... whose history... Greek. you only wish you could call all this yours. Too bad...[:(]so sad... but don't cry [V]u have a little peace of land u call ur home. Greece and Bulgaria were good enough to let you have something now why are u not thankfull for that? [^] You ppl can't even appreciate when you have... you're so greedy. |
| StormAngel | quote:My grand parents come from Macedonia...and they still live there. if you are trying to prove something...you are having all the wrong ideas and the wrong way of putting your ideas inot something that we could even try to discuss. As far as Greece and Bulgaria is concerned...read the history books little more sweet child cause as far as they are concerned we couldn`t have nothing...so please the next time you come...if you do...try to bring us years facts arguments and not just say something that even you don`t understand. Peace![;)] |
| Ptolemeos | These are the names of the kings of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia. If you can find any non-Greek name in those, then please send me a message, otherwise, you should wonder why they are all Greek... ARGEAD dynasty and their mythical ancestors Hercules Illos Kleodaios Aristomachos Timmenos Kissios Thestios Merops Aristodamidas Phidon Karanos (Late 9th/Early 8th Cent.BC) He built the city Aeges (Vergina) Koinos (Mid-8th Cent.BC) Tyrimmas (Late 8th/Early 7th Cent.BC) Perdikkas I (670-652BC) Argaios I (652-621BC) Philippos I (621-588BC) Aeropos I (588-568BC) Alketas (568-540BC) Amyntas I (540-498BC) From this period we have the first historical records Alexandros I (498-454BC) Participated in the Olympics and received the title of the Philellin Perdikkas II (454-413BC) Archelaos I (413-399BC) Made Pella the capital of his kingdom Orestis (399-396BC) Aeropos II (396-393BC) Pausanias (393BC) Amyntas II the Lioras (393BC) Amyntas III (392-370BC) Alexandros II (370-368BC) Ptolemeos Alorites (368-365BC) Perdikkas III (365-359BC) Philippos II (359-336BC) He first managed to unify the Greek states under his hegemony Alexandros III the Great (336-323BC) His expedition spread the Greek culture and created a great empire Philippos III Arrhidaios (323-321BC) Brother of Alexander III the Great, mentally incapable Antipatros (321-319BC) He was appointed king until Alexander IV* would become adult *Alexandros IV was the son of Alexander III and Roxani and they were both murdered by Kassandros in 310 BC Immediately after Alexander's III death started the competition between his generals (Ptolemeos, Antigonos, Lysimachos, Eumenis, Leonatos, Seleukos, Dimitrios) for the throne of his empire. Very soon the empire was divided into 5-6 states that competed eachother, until the conquer by the Romans. RIVAL KINGS: 319-301 BC Kassandros Son of Antipatros that built Thessaloniki Antigonos I Monophthalmos (319-301BC) Dimitrios I Poliorkitis Son of Antigonos Lysimachos Seleukos Ptolemeos Lagos ANTIPATRID dynasty Kassandros Philippos IV Antipatros Alexandros V RIVAL RULERS Dimitrios I Poliorkitis (294-288BC) Pyrrhos (288-285BC) Lysimachos (285-281BC) Ptolemeos Keravnos (281-279BC) He was defeated by the Galats ANARCHY Meleager (279BC) Antipatros Etesias (279BC) Sosthenis (279-277BC) ANTIGONID dynasty Antigonos II Gonatas (277-239BC) He reorganized the Macedonian kingdom Dimitrios II (239-229BC) Antigonos III Doson (229-222BC) Philippos V (221-179BC) Perseus (179-168BC) He was defeated by the Romans in 168 at Pydna As you can see for yourself all the names of the kings are 100% Greek. The "historians" of F.Y.R.O.M., to overcome that problem, simply claim that the kings of Macedonia were hellenized but the people of Macedonia were not Greek! That is a smart trick for a propagandist, but it is very stupid for a historian. They interpret the facts only in the way that suits them best. If the people of Macedonia were not Greek then wouldn't there be any record of any kind of revolution against their "hellenized and therefore hostile" kings? Isn't that logical enough, or do we have to fantasize about ancient and mysterious conspiracies? Here you go.....your facts along with years. Want to argue that? Explain the meaning of the names. Need more? Just ask for more. |
| dejan | Yes please do post more:) You know not everything is Greek. We'd be able to prove that ancient names from that area are also Macedonian if you didn't take away the Aegean part of our country. Bastardo! And why was there a distinct different Macedonian language? Hmmmm answer me that Mr I'm too smart and know everything and i'm a typical Greek and i also know more and i like to touch myself at night! ! |
| dejan | Oh yeah this post to that Bulgarian tatar. My grandparents where they come from? Born in Skopje and still live there. Right we stole a language..... aha that's why Cyrill and Methodios lived in Ohrid, being the best students in Clement's class who also happend to live in Ohrid! wow! Strange how you find out something that you had no clue about! huh! What history does Bulgaria have? Nothing, you are brutal people and have no respect for other cultures. You happened to borrow the Cyrillic alphabet and also the Orthodox Religion. Maybe you should look up on some Encyclopaedia's and read about Bulgaria. And also the Cyrillic alphabet too, oh and the Orthodox religion. We're too greedy? Riiiight, after your people took a lot away we're greedy? No sweety, i think your people might be the ones who are greedy. If you hadn't adapted to our culture those centuries ago, you wouldn't have similar names and similar last names to us. Instead you would have had a mix of Turkish names. Accept the cold heart truth, look into your mirror and you'll see a tatar. |
| greecealexander | During war, one will call the other anything, including barbarians. They don't fight and call each other gentlemen. Is that all you Macedonians quote all the time? A quote calling the macedonians barbarians should proove something? This is directly taken out of the planned propaganda of Macedonia. If you really have read books you would have not doubts what Alexander was. And I don't think you have read about the Peloponisian war. You are just repeating what the others say. Btw I am gay |
| greecealexander | You are just repeating what you see in the Internet. Why don't you read some history books? It's hard to believe that Alexander hated the Greeks when the he considered the Iliad and the Odysea as the most presious thing he had. You speak Macedonian. If you can't even get that right then you have a serious problem. |
| greecealexander | We greeks, should respect your country, because we stole your history and name. I am sorry for that. |
| Ptolemeos | I'll just ask you that,in your museums,in F.Y.R.O.M.,is there anything that proves that Macedonians where not Greeks?Cause in our museums,and in museums all around the world artifacts that prove that Macedonians where Greeks exist and are exibited as Greek. Is there a single marble written in a language not understood by Greeks and that it is written from Macedonians? Also,pls try to prove that the names i wrote in my last post are not Greek.Also,tell me what Macedonia means.Because meanning in the name Macedonia is to be found only in Greek.Since you named your country like that,it has to have a meanning in your so called ancient language.Just like ours,just like ALL the countries.Pls enlight us with a speciment of your distinct different Macedonian language.I am sure that teachers at F.Y.R.O.M. schools teach that language just as our teachers in Greece teach Ancient Greek. And not to forget, more facts.Be my guest..... The Roman writer Titus Livius says : (from "The Foundation of the City", Paragraph 31) "The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day." Didorus of Sicily (17.67.1) says: "After this Alexander left Dareius's mother, his daughters, and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the Greek language, and marching on with his army on the fourth day reached the Tigris River. " You called me a bastard,well,maybe i am ,but thats not my fault. BUT ITS YOUR FAULT TO BE THIEVES In case you can't answer,don't bother to swear.Your swearing only,proves the right of my writtings. |
| Maverik | OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Grci Od kade se pojavite sega pa vie, so ubavo mirno si bese dodeka ve nemase. ama ajde One note to you Ptolomeus, Those names are not writen like that in the first place. Everything will sound greek if you add an -os or -s at the end of its name. In that direction some of the right names of the kings that you mentioned before are Perdika, Ptolomej, Aleksandar, Aminta, Antogon etc. etc. Maybe if you write Maverikus it will meen that I'm Greek as well. Stupid!!! |
| OooOo | quote:Ptolemeos, This is your last warning. I told you, NOT to use the word |
| Ania` | quote:you know what? i love greece and greeks can be cute once in a while as long as we don't discuss history. because that is when YOU are denying ME as a person so ANTI-EUROPEAN but I am sure Brussels will soon teach you a lesson if they don't history will just tell your grandchildren I warned you :) seeya in summer:) (loads of free drinks from desperate greeks that are desperate to get laid.......can't wait to see your miserable face after you r dumped as you usually are, get a life, I hope your grandchildren will) p.s don't you DARE to F.Y.R.O.M me! |
| elena_ | Ania srcka si....hehhehe |
| OooOo | Ania` BRAVO. Svaka chast :)) Vakvo spushtanje odamna ne sum videl [:D][:D][:D][:D] |
| Strelec | Ania' za pretsedatel!:))) |
| Thief | Ania` çà ïðåòñåäàòåë, àìà íåêî¼ åãååö çà ïîòïðåòñåäàòåë! Ñî Óñòàâ òîà äà ñå ðåãóëèðà! [:D] |
| Sunshine | Ania` svaka chast za postov! ali za ova "greeks can be cute once in a while" ...huh...mozhda posle 4-5-6 dupli votki. ko cigani se. |
| StormAngel | Bravo Ania`.[;)] |
| marko_polog | Some Greek women are cute, after they shave their back and trim the moustache a bit. |
| Ptolemeos | No one answered my questions.......Except that man saying that if you put an -os or -s at the end of a name it will sound Greek.I do have to say that the Greek names have a meanning.... Example: Alexandros in greek comes from the combination of two words. 1) Alex- : derives from the Greek verb alexo which means repel, resist. Examples of such words produced in the Greek language are: Alexisfairo :protection from bullets (sfaira) Alexilio :protection from sun (ilios) and 2)Andras (=male) The name Alexandros means the man that can resist to other men, that can protect from other men, the skilled fighter. But let me give you some more examples of names and meannings. Bucephalus was the name of the horse of Alexander the Great. The name derives from the two Greek words Vous (=ox) and Kephali (=head), meaning the horse with a head as big as an ox's head. According to existing records Bucephalus had a big head The name of the father of Alexander the Great is a Greek name. Philippos derives from the Greek words Philos (=friend) and Ippos (=horse) meaning the person that goes along well with horses, the skilled rider. I hope that proves ,that the end of a name is not why the names mentioned above are Greek.Oh....also Maverikos means nothing in Greek. I can explain more names but i think that these are enough.If you need more then you can ask me for some more. Further ....... OooOo, i believe that i gave an answer to your PM to me about that matter.Thats if you bothered to read my answer.If i didn't respect you i would use the same language as you all do when you cant answer to my questions.BUT...if respect is shown here by that way then i will respect that BUT as long as i am respected.I will never refer to your country with any other name than Skopie.I think that its fair and that you or me are not offended by that.If that doesn't suit you then pls tell me what name should i use EXCEPT your or my version of the name. Ania.Brussels will teach us a lesson?The point is that Brussels are teaching you a lesson.The lesson of not being recognized by the E.U. with the name that you want to be named after.The same lesson comes from the United Nations.Needless to say that we dont need lessons in this matter.I dont deny you as a person Ania nor anybody else, but i do deny the name you use.Its not personal.You try to warn me about what exactly?The military or the economic power of you country ,because none of them can harm us, as mentioned and proved above (with facts by Byzantine,page 13 of this forum). I dont see anyone trying to answer my questions mentioned above. Pls read them and pls also give me some answers to them.Every time i get here i try to answer to what ever you say ,in the same manner you answer to me.So give me facts and dates and not swearings. Thanks for your time and sorry for the length but i do try to answer to all of you.Away from all these now......are you gonna come to the Olympics?(i have a feeling about your answer to this but deep inside me i hope to be proved wrong) |
| OooOo | quote:Did you recently watched "My big fat greek weeding"?? [:D][:D][:D] And there you go .... quote:Oh no you won't. I will be more then happy to ban you from this forum because I told you 3 times already not to use that word. Behave like other participants and you are more then welcome to stay. NO COMPROMISE, it's not your forum! As far as your questions, I don't really care what you are trying to prove here, because I know WHAT and WHO I AM. Btw the city is not called quote:I don't mind coming to the Olympics, sports got nothing to do with the politics, as far as I am concerned. |
| 1republika | si bil eden makedonakis i se vozel vo kola so grkinka, kolata se prevrtakis i grkinkata zabremenakis. grkot bi rekol: nemi e krivo sto zenata zabremenakis tuku sto deteto ce se vika Makedonakis!:-) |
| n/a | Grcite mozat da ni bidat slugi i ke bile da ne im pomognale zapadnjacive na vremeto. Grcite se samo edno plemo koe zivee na balkanot so pomos na Anglija i Amerika. NOT GREEK , NOT BULGARIAN , NOT SERBS ONLY MACEDONIANS "UNITED MACEDONIA" |
| n/a | UNITED MACEDONIA NOT GREEK , NOT BULGARIAN , NOT SERBS ONLY MACEDONIANS |
| protivpropaganda | quote:I`ll answer some of your questions. The problem is whether you are man enough to except the true answers? As for the questions on why everybody in those times spoke greek, even the Macedonians, is very simple to answer. The answer lies in the fact that todays international written and spoken communication is done through the english language. As we are doing right now. When the Romans were head honchos in the world international communication was done in latin. Get it? No argument there for greeks is there? Most if not all of the artifacts of ancient Macedonian origin was found in Macedonia and not in Ellada proper, as for greece and greeks... well I think that the question is answered through modern genetics where it has been found that greeks are not of mediteranean origin unlike todays inhabitants of Macedonia who still DO have an origin of mediteranean character (very slavic indeed). Also, I will have to point out the fact that there was and still is a ban on digging deeper on archeological sites in Macedonia than the time of the Roman empire. Something to do with the Pan-slovenic theory and slovenists (socialistic mentality past and present). You should investigate this theory more closely if you are concerned with the truth. It might just show you some things that you probably would not like to find out about yourself and your government. I do by the way have some questions for you that might just prove to be important to this discusion: 1. Can you tell me why the greek government up to the year 1990 forced a propaganda campaign throughout the world that Macedonians did not exist anymore, that is we don`t exist anymore and after that year turned a 180 cycle and started to propagate that, we are not the Macedonians but that todays greeks were the Macedonians?[:0] 2. Do you know about an agreement between serbia, greece and bulgaria in Bucharest which ended a Balkan war only because then it was decided who gets what from Macedonia? Did you know that in that agreement there was a clause that states a return of the taken territories? Something like England with Hong Kong.[:0] 3. Do you know about a genocidal war that happened after WWII to clense a teritory from its populace? Why was it necessary to commit genocide upon civilians and why was it necessary to clense a teritory? Why was it necessary to destroy churches, graveyards and anything that proves an existence of another nation? [:0] P.S. You see, I am not into history that much. The questions I have put forth upon to you are of men of greek origin, my collegues. They have given me some clues about your country`s propaganda over an abandunt sum of food, alchohol and music which we enjoyed very much. Surprisingly enough, for you, is the fact that some greeks do not feel comfortable to call themselves something they are not, to live and have their children play and grow over somebodies grave, to pray in somebody elses church only because it was painted over with fresh paint. Thank god that there still are sane people in greece. HAVE YOU OR YOUR PARENTS EVER BEEN IN GREECE? The people there are lovely, that is, if they are not full of an unexplained, to them, hate of an unexplainable, to them, origin. |
| tnt | hahaha, the greeks are the plague pf the balkans. no wodner noone likes them! |
| tnt | i do ivo komita, vo bulgaria nikoi ne vi saka be. budete kakvito sakate! troshite si glavite! |
| Strelec | quote:tnt, pa neli brakja sme!? kako toa brat brata da ne iska?:) |
| sapeski | tnt, êîãà âî Áóãàðè¼à íèêî¼ íå íå ñàêà (êàìî äà å òàêà) çîøòî òîãàø ñåêî¼ âòîð ïëîøòàä âî Ñîôè¼à å èìåíîâàí ïî ìàêåäîíñêè äååö èëè çîøòî ñèòå áëãàðè ïîñòî¼àíî âèêààò äåêà íèå ñìå åäíà èñòà íàöè¼à? Ôàëà Áîãó òè ìèñëèø ïîèíàêó. |
| OooOo | quote:AMIN AMIN! Nikoj i da ne ne saka najubavo kje bide. |
| tnt | a question. since you all feel so patriotic about being macedonians tell me why since the begining of 2004, 30,000 macedonians (citizens of state macedonia) habe legally become bulgarian citizens? nevertheless there is a huge number waiting for bulgarian citizenship. I thought that you saved your ethnos for 2300 years then how come you change it for no time? |
| tnt | one more question. my best friend is macedonian from skopje, i am bulgarian from sofia. do you think I speak english with him? |
| tnt | Strelec, tova prashanje e za surbite ne za mene! |
| Ceki | quote:Then what is your problem, he is Macedonian you bulgar. quote:1. Show some proofs. 2. How can we know, that they are Macedonians, they could be turks, albanians, roms, ... Many others that are using this passports for smuggling, ... 3. More passports doesnt mean they are now bulgarians, maybe there are some benefits, maybe its easier to get to greece, who knows. |
| tnt | quote:ceki, i dont have problems. i am a happy human being, but thank you for your consideration :) my question was: do you think i speak english or german with him as i do with you? |
| OooOo | A na koj mu e gajle za toa?? Ako se nashol eden izrod, nemora site nas da ne sporeduvash so nego. |
| Ceki | Let me think ... I am Macedonian and you speak with me in english, he is Macedonian so ... I guess you do speak english with him. But please do correct me, if i am wrong :) |
| tnt | izrod? dano te ne cue covekot! He is the son of very well known Macedonian (skopijan) architekt, he is also an architekt. i hope you know the meaning of the word intellectual. if for you guys, your intellectuals are izrod then god save Macedonia. The truth is that he is twice more patriotic than you are. Patriotic, does not mean that you hate all people around you! Patriotic means to do something god for your country. Bulgaria received one billion dollars for infrastructural projects with neighbouring countries this year. 54% of it is for infrastructural projects with Greece, 32 for projects with Rumania 10 turkey ………. For Macedonia 2,3%. Someone asked “why is the rode Macedonia Bulgaria in such a shape(meaning tragic)”. Ill tell you why! Because we don’t have trade. Exports - partners: Germany 19.2%, Italy 9.2%, US 6.7%, Croatia 5.5%, Greece 4.6% (2002 Imports - partners: Greece 19.4%, Germany 14.4%, Bulgaria 7.5%, Slovenia 6.9%, Italy 6.9%, Turkey 5.9%, Ukraine 5%, Austria 4.1% (2002) The data is from: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html what percentage is Bulgaria in this data? I would be much happier to see in that first position for the infrastructural projects the name Macedonia instead of Greece but … Think clearly. Politics are keeping your country from developing and integration with the EU . You are loosing money because of being overly nationalistic. |
| Ceki | quote:WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!! |
| OooOo | koga imate shkart roba shto nikoj ne ja saka choveche .. [:D] Bugarskiot benzin smrdi, a drugata roba za izvoz e so istechen rok [:p] |
| tnt | ceki, i speak Bulgarian and he speaks macedonia and we understand one another perfectly. Why deny our similarities when they are so obvious. If tomorrow, God forbid Albania attacks Macedonia to “free the ethnic Albanians” who do you think is going to help you? Maybe EU? Serbia? Or USA? or the people that are closest to you? |
| Ceki | You really dont know what you are talking, do you. How can you say WE are nationalistic, do you even know that you are on VMACEDONIA and not on vgreece or vbulgaria, YOU PRICK!!!!!!!! I do hope you have a rational explanation for that and that YOU POSTED THAT BY A MISTAKE AND YOU WILL TAKE IT BACK!!!!!! |
| OooOo | quote:Why do you think that we need help at the first place? God forbid if we recline on your "modern" military assistance. |
| Ceki | Dont worry about albania, if someone attacks us we can defend ourself, we only need GOOD politicians. And by the way i live in slovenia and ALL slavic languages are similar and can be in a way understandable with eachother. Similarities, where have you been for the last 500 years, HELLO we have been under ottoman empire for ages, HELLO ALL BALKAN CULTURES ARE SIMILAR, no matter we say greek, bulgar or Macedonian!!!!!!!!! |
| tnt | bulgaria, Exports - partners: Italy 15.5%, Germany 9.6%, Turkey 9.4%, Greece 9.2%, France 5.3%, US 4.8% (2002) Imports - partners: Russia 14.6%, Germany 14.4%, Italy 11.4%, Greece 6.1%, France 5.7%, Turkey 5% (2002) eto ti koi ne ia saka! ili italy , germany , greece france and US sa nikoi. |
| OooOo | quote:Super, nie samo bugarkite za 2 chrveni gi sakame .. drugoto izvezuvajte go na zapad. Ne e deka vredat bugarkite, nego evtin potroshen materijal e toa. |
| Christian | Abe bugar aj gleaj si rabotata u bugarija a ne ovde. Ceki covek da me otepas ja slovenski ni zbor ne mozam da razberam, i koa ke mi tekne so slovenci sme bile zaedno u jugoslavija.lol |
| Ceki | We can also trade our non-macedonian inhabitants for Pirin Macedonia, if you would like. Special offer just for bulgaria :) |
| Ceki | Znam bre Christian sakav samo da mu kazam deka se jazicite slicni :) |
| tnt | ceki, as govorim na bulgarski a on zboruva na makedonski i se razumeme perfektno! Why deny our similarities when they are so obvious. If tomorrow, God forbid Albania attacks Macedonia to “free the ethnic Albanians” who do you think is going to help you? Maybe EU? Serbia? Or USA? or the people that are closest to you? |
| Ceki | You are posting one thing over and over again. I wont answer AGAIN just find the answer in my previous posts. |
| tnt | and one more thing. dont forget that if you concider joining the EU teritorial claim are absoliutelly out of the question. thats one of the conditions to even start the talks! so, please be more realistic. joining the EU territorial claim are absolutely out of the question. that’s one of the conditions to even start the talks! so, please be more realistic. NATO rule number one. Defending the current territorial borders of all members |
| Ceki | Well they will have to change it, when they will realize that they were wrong. Simply as that. |
| tnt | ceki :))) arguments... i want arguments. extraordinary claims require extraordinary arguments! oooOOooo, pa ia sum tuka da si zboruvam s horata be. iskam da znaiam shto misluvat. |
| Ceki | Arguments, you want arguments, live and you will see :))))))) The time is coming :))))) |
| tnt | the time for what? the jews takind over the world? the martians coming down to earth? |
| tnt | abe neznam shto me napadate. nito kajah deka ste bugari nito kajah deka iazikot vi e bugarski! ama e tova e ... sliapa omraza. i segash shto se ocekuva od mene? da pocnem i az da vi napadam? e nema. iskah da vi razberem misleneto. |
| tnt | a BG army 2004, 29 mart NATO. neznam koko e losha za da bude u NATO ama znam che taka lesno i nato se ne vliaguva! |
| Ceki | Noone is attacking you, we are just defending ourelves, i mean HELLO you are the one who came here and started to attack us that we are not Macedonians. |
| tnt | please shome where did i say that? please do so because i dont remember doing it!!!!!! prejudism is the worst thing of all |
| Christian | pa THT ako ni se slicni jaciite pisi na bugarski,so meles na angliski. i mali ne racunaj na toa deka bugarija ke pomogne, zosto milion pati ste ni go....... pa sea pomos da barame od vas. I kako sto kazaa nekoj prethodno ako albanija ne napadne, ne fala za vasa pomos. Oti bez vas do jonsko more ke stasame i mamiceto ke im go raplaceme.Samo voa politicarive nikako da ni se pogodat. PS. pa site dobri ni gi otepaa 1903 i 1945[:(] |
| Ceki | quote:Well where did i see you was calling us bulgarians, sorry cant remember. :)))))) |
| Ceki | And about NATO thing, i saw your minister on tv, he was crying like they were doing something to him :)))))) |
| tnt | "nito kajah deka ste bugari nito kajah deka iazikot vi e bugarski" mean only and only "i dodnt say that you are bulgarians and I didnt say that your language is bulgarian" nito = otricanie = ne |
| Ceki | Well if i misunderstood you, then our languages are not so simmilar as you thought :)))))))))))) |
| tnt | i az tova go videv i se ubih ot smes so ministero :-)) ama toi e evrein be kakvo ocekivash. pa neznam dali vede deka si slojil nomera na kolata otpred NATO 04 a otzad EC 07 cekai ke go potursam pa ke tia go pratim linka. |
| tnt | ceki, pitai surbite za tova! drugite zashto me razbraha? |
| Ceki | Well the politicians are always and everywhere a problem :) What is "surbite" , serbians?? I really dont understand what are you trying to say. And i said almost all the slavic languages are quite understandable, just look at CROATIAN AND SERBIAN, now go to croatia and start calling them serbians, if you dare :) And in my opinion you are Macedonian, that is bored or/and probulgaric. |
| tnt | caki, ne sum be. i told you that my best friend is Macedonian and that i have nothing but warm feelings for all Macedonians. you started attacking me because you all thought that i have something against Macedonian nation and Macedonian language. i don’t! my question was why deny the similarities? You said :” Well if i misunderstood you, then our languages are not so simmilar as you thought :))))))))))))” Keep locking for differences caki. Its your choice. |
| OooOo | Pa mozhda se slichni, koga od sekogash ste imale tendencija da kradete. [:p] |
| tnt | e na toia vic she se posmeiam :-))) she go kajam na 10 coveka i te sa se posmeiat. |
| OooOo | isto i nie se smeeme. Jas na 11 dushi im kazhav i site se smeea. Aj sea da se smeeme malku [:D] |
| tnt | kak 8 miliona haresaha tolkuva nekoi cujd ezik pa go napraiha svoi? oshte poveke che samo dva miliona go zboruvali ;) |
| Ceki | I think i already answered you for "the similarities" just read my previous posts. Now if you dont have nothing against Macedonian language and nation, then i really dont know what are you trying to say, you could just simply post : "Me TNT believs that bulgarian nation and language is different then Macedonian nation and language." And there would be no need for posting rubish from your side. And i still think you are Macedonian that is either bored or probulgaric, or even both. And why the hell where you pm-ing me that you cant post, as i see you can still post. |
| OooOo | quote:nishto ne te razbrav, aj prevedi |
| Ceki | HEY what are you talking, all over the world there are as Macedonians as there are bulgarians. We were forced to leave our homes, either economicaly or politicaly ( and i think bulgarians know about that thing a lot). |
| tnt | how come 8 millions liked the "foreign" language of two millions and took it? caka, please Don’t quote me about something that I never said!!! I said believe in whatever you want its your choice. There is still the director of the historian museum in Sofia who gives a reward of 100,000 euros for anyone who shows him a authentic document written in Macedonian dated before you became part of “great” Yugoslavia. If I were you I would have found one and taken the money long ago!!! |
| Ceki | quote:I will say it for the last time, READ MY POSTS. And for the museum guy, he can stuck his( if he can afford them) 100000 euros in his bulgarian ass. I wonder where he get them. |
| tnt | caki, Maybe you gonna tell me now that our economy is worst than yours :))) how come we are almost finished with the EU talks and we will be officially EU member in 2007 , not to mention that we are already in NATO?!? To you think that those two organizations accept members with bad economy? How come Bulgarian universities are full with student from Macedonia if things are going so badly in Bulgaria? |
| tnt | quote:a never heard anyone denying money !!! Maybe you are powerless to show the document? A thought you are polite guy who can talk normally! |
| Ceki | I can only say that before greece joined EU, Macedonia as part of yugoslavia was more developed as greece, but now you see. And i can only say i hope that this wont happen to you too! By geting two "greeces" behind our neck, things could complicate even more. And for NATO, i will say to you that i hate NATO and if Macedonia will never be part of that alliance, thats fine for me. And why are you suddenly so proud about NATO and EU, you are becoming like your crying minister. |
| tnt | after talking to you i came to the following conclussions. Now I am being absolutely honest . I don’t want you in Bulgaria. I don’t want your ethnic problems. Live with your hate and keep blaming everything and everyone for the situation you are in. |
| tnt | because NATO i something that shows stabble economy. i am against nato too. i just gave it as an example. and believe me i hate greeks more than you do ;) |
| Ceki | One more thing, why do you think greece and bulgarians are in EU, those are the countrys that still have parts of Macedonia in their territorys. I would think twice, before i would post stuffs about economy. And with you joining EU, there will be majority of Macedonian teritoy in EU and Macedonians aswell!! Be afraid be very afraid :)))) |