| Makedonski poeti od 19-ti vek |
| n/a |
Interesirat me tvorbi na makedonski poeti od 19-ti vek (mozhe i od po rano) |
| Thief |
Никола Јонков Вапцаров
За време на својот престој во Бугарија ја пишува песната „Земја“. Доволна е само првата строфа за се‘ да ви стане јасно:
„Оваа земја по која чекорам денес,
оваа земја која ја буди ветер од мугра,
оваа земја не е моја-не,
оваа земја простете е туѓа“
Понатаму пишува за географската определеност на неговата земја спомнувајќи „Пирин, Егеј, Вардар“! умните и од толку ќе сфатат што сакам да кажам! На улавите и илјадници листови катиљ-фермани им се малку! |
| n/a |
Hmm, the interesting link that you have given to me says:
MACEDONIAN LITERATURE
The first representatives of modern Macedonian literature made their appearance at the beginning of the 19th century. Joakim Krcovski and Kiril Pejcinovik introduced the ideas and sentiments of Enlightenment and rationalism. After them, the development of Macedonian Literature has been marked by the work of Dimitar and Konstantin Miladinov, Grigor Prlicev, and Rajko Zinzifov from the period of the middle of the 19th century. It was further developed in the 20th century by Vojdan Cernodrinski, Nikola Kirov - Majski and Atanas Razdolov.
Then the development of Macedonian Literature continued with Koco Racin, who is considered to be the founder of the modern literature. The first post-war generation of Macedonian poets, prose writers and playwrights included Blaze Koneski, Aco Sopov, Slavko Janevski, Vlado Maleski and Kole Casule.
The new generation of Macedonian writers which appeared in the early 1950s, encompassing among others Gane Todorovski, Mateja Matevski, Dimitar Solev, Ante Popovski, Boris Visinski and Simon Drakul is still very active today. They were followed by a wider group of talented authors, from which we can single out Zivko Cingo, Petre M. Andreevski, Radovan Pavlovski, Jovan Koteski e.t.c.
As stated above, all the poets from the 19th century (that are also mentioned in this article) - Grigor Prlicev,Konstandin I Dimitar Miladinovci, Joakim Krcovski, Rajko Zinzifov and Kiril Pejcinovich have proclaimed themselves as bulgarians and are worshipped by the contemporary bulgarians. My questions concerns some other macedonian poets from the 19th century.
|
| Legal-Eagle |
aha! So you can comprehend!
You have just comfirmed exactly what I have believed all along. You are very narrow minded. You only read into something that you agree with, but fail to read the link that i gave you in its entirity!
Did I lead the witness your honour? OH ABSOLUTLEY!![:D]
TOUCHE! My friend, how easy it is to set a trap to catch a rat[:D]
Your interest in Macedonian Poets is no more than my interest in watching moss form on an unturned stone! |
| ozonce |
edlund e golem serko i ushte pogolem kreten... ti ebam se po spisok!!!!!!!!! eeee mi go rasipa denot kopile edno bugarsko ili kako sho vika slasa tatarsko! |
| n/a |
Тие сите са български възрожденци, пишували на български, молим те не ни кради поетите.
Такаа, ето ти сега инфо за Кирил Пейчинович, най важното от което е:
Както Кърчовски, така и Пейчинович счита за нужно да подчертае в заглавието, че книгите са написани на „препростейным и некныжиым язиком Болгарским"
Кирил Пейчинович е роден в с. Теарце до Тетово, неизвестно кога, а умрял в 1845 г. Той е ученик на Кърчовски. На младини е посетил Света Гора и Хилендарския манастир, където приел монашество. В 1801 г. станал игумен на Крал Марковския манастир “Св. Димитър” при Скопие, където престоял 18 години. След това със свои средства се заел да възобнови западналия манастир при с. Лешок, близо до родното му място, на който станал игумен. Лешочкият манастир е играл голяма роля в духовното развитие на северозападните македонски покрайнини. Той е станал просветителен център на цяло Скопско и Тетовско. Кирил Пейчинович не е изпускал случай при обиколките си из околните села да държи проповеди и поучения, да буди националната свяст и да просвещава народа.
Той е написал 2 книги: “Огледало” (1816) и “Утешение грешним” (1840), напечатани - първата в Будапеща, а втората в българската печатница на архимандрит Теодосий в Солун. И в двете книги се разглеждат религиозно-нравствени въпроси. Както Кърчовски, така и Пейчинович счита за нужно да подчертае в заглавието, че книгите са написани на „препростейным и некныжиым язиком Болгарским". Кир. Пейчинович си написал и надгробен надпис в стихотворна форма.
И двамата книжовници вървят по пътя, начертан от Софроний, и двамата са най-близки негови последователи. Със своята дейност и със своите трудове те се явяват представители на новото време, на новата възродителна епоха, защото се стараят да въздействуват върху народната маса в нравствено и просветително отношение, държат проповеди, сами откриват училища и обучават децата. Със залагането да се пише и говори на прост бълг. език те дават право на живата нар. реч да легне в основата на бълг. книжовен език. И двамата като урожденци на западния край пишат на западнобългарски диалект. В езика им може да се открие сръбско влияние. Макар написани на западнобългарски диалект съчиненията им били разпространени из цяла България и се четели от мнозина просветени българи.
Ето ти да видиш как започнува поемата "Крвава кошула" на Райко Жинзифов:
[url]http://slovoto.orbitel.bg/showwork.php3?AuID=29&T1=%CA%FA%F0%E2%E0%E2%E0%20%EA%EE%F8%F3%EB%FF&Add1=%EE%F2%EA%FA%F1[/url]
Ето оште малко инфо за Йоаким Кърчовски:
Йоаким Кърчовски е роден около 1750г. в село Осломей (Кичевско), умира през 1820г. Народният будител е автор на четири книги, написани на "простейший язикъ Болгарский". Целия си живот посвещава на просветното дело. Остава в историята като човек, работил за един книжовен език, който да е разбираем за обикновените хора.
Книгите му са печатани между 1814 и 1819г.
1814г. "Повест ради страшнаго и втораго пришествия Христова, собраная от различних писания и преведена на простейший язик Болгарский ползвания ради простейших человеков некнижних".
1817г. "Митарства ". Още в заглавната страница големият просветител посочва македонските градове, подпомогнали издаването на книгата : " Кратово, Крива Паланка, Сечища и прочих градов Болгарских ".
1817г. "Чудеса пресвятия Богородици преведена от Амартолон Сотирия на Болгарски язик ".
Joakim Karchovski was born in the village of Oslomej (the region of Kichevo) around 1750 and died in 1820. This spreader of enlightenment is the author of four books written in "the plainest Bulgarian language". He devoted all his life to the cause of education and stayed in history as a person who worked for the establishment of a literary language comprehensible for the common populace.
His books were typed between 1814 and 1817.
1814 "A narration about the formidable and second advent of Christ, composed from various Holy Scriptures and translated into plainest Bulgarian language which is used for the sake of the most common and illiterate people".
1817 "Trials". On the frontpage, the great man of enlightenment mentions the Macedonian cities which helped the issuing of the book: "Kratovo, Kriva Palanka, Sechishta and other Bulgarian cities".
1817 "The Wonders of the Holy Virgin translated from Amartolon Soteria into Bulgarian"
Во София има улици Кирил Пейчиновски, Йоаким Кърчовски, Райко Жинзифов и Григор Пърличев.
Бракя Миладинови напишуват книгата "Български народни песни от Македония", таа книга я имам. Вo FYROM е известна под името "Зборник".
Еве овде малце творби на Константин Миладинов:
[url]http://slovoto.orbitel.bg/showauthor.php3?ID=8&LangID=1[/url]
Еве овде малце за Григор Пърличев:
[url]http://slovoto.orbitel.bg/showauthor.php3?ID=224&LangID=1[/url]
Райко Жинзифов вдъхновено пише:
"Я сум млада бугарка,
име ми в Милтана,
Я сум чиста славянка,
в Бугария родена,
от бугарски род
и бугарски плод..."
("Гуслар о собор")
Григор Пърличев:
"Ой, болгарски ти мой народе, що не гониш лош фанариот." |
| melpomena |
edlund ako topicive gi stavash samo za da provocirash i jas kje se pridruzham kon onie koi na pochetok ti rekoa MRSH!!!
Ili ukluchi se da zboruvash vo nekoja normalna tema, ili idi si brakjata b'lgari na b'lgarski forum pa recitirajte si pesni od 'blgarskite poeti!!!
|
| n/a |
Melpomena, it's already clear to me that I can not have a normal discussion here, so I just wanted to know some poet from the land of macedonia who didn't wrote in his books that he is bulgarian. The poets that AaaAa mentioned were writing in bulgarian or the macedonian dialect of the bulgarian(and that's what they said!), the originals of their works are saved until today. |
| melpomena |
Normalna diskusija?
Prvo prashaj se ti dali vodish normalna diskusija?
I kade toa pishuva deka tie poeti se Bugari?
Vo vashata istorija?
Daj molim te ako sakash normalno da funkcionirash na forumov ne se odnesuvaj kako seljak koj ne izlegol ponatamu od rodnata mu grutka!
I ti rekov prekini da otvarash temi koi za nas se von od diskusija, poradi toa shto ne se sporni.
Ovie raboti pishuvaj si gi na bugarski forum. Tuka ako sakash da pishuvash ima da ne cenish kako Makedonci so svoe nacionalno poteklo i svoja drzhava, kako i nie tebe shto te cenime.
Ako ne ti odgovara, prijatno.
Jas nikade ne dobiv vpechatok deka sakash da se druzhish so nas??? |
| n/a |
Yes, I wanted to be an usual user of this forum but then first of all I was called provocator with no reason, then was called tatar and so on.
quote:
I kade toa pishuva deka tie poeti se Bugari?
They have wrote it in their books.
One question - can you find me in the internet a macedonian version of the poem "Кървава кошуля" from Райко Жинзифов? It's interesting how it begins.
One more question - why are there in Sofia streets, that are named after Кирил Пейчиновски, Йоаким Кърчовски, Райко Жинзифов и Григор Пърличев? Do you think it's possible - bulgarians hate macedonians, don't give them human rights and name the streets in the bulgarian capitol after the macedonian poets?
|
| n/a |
quote:
Originally posted by melpomena
I kade toa pishuva deka tie poeti se Bugari?
Who?
Who says I'm Bulgarian. I say so. And those poets said it.
In their novels and poems. In their books.
The titles and so.
The originals are still present - please go see them and then come back and argue about their nationality.
Nikolay
|
| n/a |
quote:
Originally posted by Legal-Eagle
aha! So you can comprehend!
You have just comfirmed exactly what I have believed all along. You are very narrow minded. You only read into something that you agree with, but fail to read the link that i gave you in its entirity!
Did I lead the witness your honour? OH ABSOLUTLEY!![:D]
TOUCHE! My friend, how easy it is to set a trap to catch a rat[:D]
Your interest in Macedonian Poets is no more than my interest in watching moss form on an unturned stone!
Believe me, dear Legal-Eagle, I have a very strong interest in the macedonian culture, but still struggle to get to know a macedonian poet from the 19th century.
The link that you gave me shows nothing more about the macedonian literature that I already commented.
I hope you can satisfy my interest in this period of the macedonian literature, which as we know is much much more developed than the literature of their barbaric eastern neighbours.
|
| Legal-Eagle |
quote:
Originally posted by tsun kai hui
Believe me, dear Legal-Eagle, I have a very strong interest in the macedonian culture, but still struggle to get to know a macedonian poet from the 19th century.
The link that you gave me shows nothing more about the macedonian literature that I already commented.
I hope you can satisfy my interest in this period of the macedonian literature, which as we know is much much more developed than the literature of their barbaric eastern neighbours.
Nice approach, you obviously know that you get more flies with honey than you do vinegar.
I must admit, my knowledge of Macedonian Literature is extremely limited. I was educated in the great English Writers and the Ancient Scholars. Sadly but true, the Australian curriculum and syllabus does not allow provisions for Macedonian Poets, and through my own sheer laziness, nor have i taken the steps to educate myself further in this field, time permitting one day i might. At this point in time it is not imperative to my existence.
I am sure that if your request is genuine there are people who might be able to assist you in you enquiry. I suggest you direct your questions politely to the likes of people like BorisVM and melpomena, maybe DJShema and OooOo. However, i think you have done your dash on this forum. You cant blame them for reacting the way they have. You might see it as amusing but i believe people take great offense when you mock and ridicule their culture. |
| AaaAa |
Legal-Eagle I am sure that in your profound knowledge of Ancient History you have realized that Spartak was a great "Bulgarian" hero. Need anything else?:))))))) |
| n/a |
All of them called themselves Bulgarians. If they do not know what they are who knows?
You may be?
And for the poems, some of them are the 'sbornik' of the folklore songs and stories and in all of them the people (heroes) were Bulgarians and called themselves Bulgarians.
How your guys manage to call them 'Macedonians' on what ground?
Here is not question on patriotism. It is just simple true.
Otherwise you easily can call Macedonian any author.
Nikolay
quote:
Originally posted by Legal-Eagle
quote:
Originally posted by nikolay
quote:
Originally posted by melpomena
I kade toa pishuva deka tie poeti se Bugari?
Who?
Who says I'm Bulgarian. I say so. And those poets said it.
In their novels and poems. In their books.
The titles and so.
The originals are still present - please go see them and then come back and argue about their nationality.
Nikolay
Dear Nikolay
Your reasoning is somewhat amusing to me. Hmmm, i wonder if i wrote a poem about how wonderful i am whether or not it would have credibility and would i convince the masses of the same. Or do the masses form an educated opinion based on 'facts' (term loosely used) Poems my dear have always been a collation of people's dreams, feelings, experiences, and so forth, and mostly clouded by a great deal of sentimental and emotional ideals. Just because a poet tells you that you are something ... do you really believe it?
I am not denying nor am I debating the fact that you are Bulgarian. You my sweet, can be anything in this whole wide world that you want to be, just as long as you believe it.
This is approximately the third post that i have written in the space of 10 mins. I dont profess to being a great Macedonian Patriot, actually i am more of the contrary. But it irks me to read posts from you and your entourage about absolutely nothing. I have tried to see your side of matters from all angles but however clarity fails me at this point. Which leads me to ask for the third time in my third post ... what is your point? Why are you so insistant that you are Bulgarian, so what? Or are you repeating this issue to the point where you are needing to convince yourself?
To be frank, who cares about the origins of these poems, sure it is 'nice' to know, but poetry is like an artform, it is meant to be enjoyed, and you are taking away all of its pleasure by debating such crap. Should i stop enjoying a great work of art like the Mona Lisa because i dont know if it really is Leonardo in Drag or a interpretation of his gay lover, or the village whore at the time or whatever else ... enjoy the great works of art, music, poetry etc etc. why taint them with your identity crisis?
|
| Legal-Eagle |
quote:
Originally posted by nikolay
All of them called themselves Bulgarians. If they do not know what they are who knows?
You may be?
And for the poems, some of them are the 'sbornik' of the folklore songs and stories and in all of them the people (heroes) were Bulgarians and called themselves Bulgarians.
How your guys manage to call them 'Macedonians' on what ground?
Here is not question on patriotism. It is just simple true.
Otherwise you easily can call Macedonian any author.
Nikolay
All in all, what are you trying to tell me?
I ponder where and why they call themselves Bulgarian by choice? Or? Who knows?
You have missed my point. Why is it so important that you lay claim to these poets? This is NOT what poetry is all about. Or are you using this as a catapult into a nationalist debate? |
| Thief |
Нормално дека и припаѓа и на бугарската поезија-живеел таму! Како и многу Македонци кои живеат низ светот и творат на англсики, на германски, но сепак се Македонци! |
| n/a |
Yes, for example Kemal Ataturk said he is macedonian. |
| Thief |
Или јас сум живеел во заблуда дека знам бугарски или ти не си го познаваш мајчиниот јазик!
Тази земя,
по която тъпча сега,
тази земя,
която пролетен вятър пробужда,
тази земя - не е моя земя,
тази земя,
простете, е чужда.
Колку што јас разбирам: „Земјата по која чекори денес не е негова, ами туѓа!“ Тоа ли е и во „оригинал“ напишано? Пастирав од сајтот којто ти го остави како извор! |
| AaaAa |
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
Melpomena, it's already clear to me that I can not have a normal discussion here, so I just wanted to know some poet from the land of macedonia who didn't wrote in his books that he is bulgarian. The poets that AaaAa mentioned were writing in bulgarian or the macedonian dialect of the bulgarian(and that's what they said!), the originals of their works are saved until today.
Rekov ja ti dudlash, ama ustava ti e tolku radjavrena so od stranive sepak imash lufta pa nemozesh da se sopresh....... rekov ja Jasa Gakja i adidasica :) |
| n/a |
It was funny and painful at the same time to see one of the best bulgarian poets here: [url]http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~dusko/InfoMak/literature/NJVapcarov.html[/url] |
| AaaAa |
XOXOOXOXOOXOXOXOHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHHXIXIIXIXIXIXIXIXIIXIXIHEHHEHEHHEHEHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHXIXIXIIXIXIXIXIIXHHOHOHOO dusicki
Abe ojte kupete si smirgla ne go drvite tuka ;) |
| n/a |
Yes, the original is translated in macedonian without losing much of the meaning, but the most important - the last vers - is somehow not included in the macedonian translation.
This land is foreign for Vapcarov, because this wasn't what he and his ancestors were fighting for. As it was said in the topic "Macedonian heroes" Vapcarov is son of a revolutioner from the land of Macedonia. In this topic you can also read his poem "Ilinden". And in the link that I gave in the previous posting you can read many of his works in pure bulgarian language.
And here you can read something about Vapcarov from a macedonian website - [url]http://www.mian.com.mk/eizdanija/poezija/vapcarov.html[/url]
At least the people from this site were kind enough to admit that:
NIKOLA VAPCAROV
1909-1942
A Macedonian poet who belongs to the Macedonian and Bulgarian literature.
Which proves my thesis. |
| n/a |
quote:
На улавите и илјадници листови катиљ-фермани им се малку!
Very true! How many times do I have to repeat that Vapcarov has written all his poems in bulgarian and all bulgarian students study his works? "Zemlja" is a very unprofessional translation of "Zemia".
Here is the real text of Zemia [url]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4369/land_bg.htm[/url]
I have to say that in the translation somehow is lost the last vers - "По Беласица телени мрежи..."
This exactly points to the meaning of this poem - the land of Macedonia is divided (with barbed wire nets), and Vapcarov doesn't want this.
If you insist that he is a macedonian then you have to admit that bulgarians and macedonians have very much in common.
P.S. Here are some of the works from Nikola Vapcarov
[url]http://slovoto.orbitel.bg/showauthor.php3?ID=17&LangID=1[/url] |
| Thief |
Сутрин тръгвам.
Фабричният път
го задръства
с рубашки
безброя.
Ние сме слети с сърцето,
с умът,
но... земята не чувствам моя.
Од овие стихови се гледа заедничката тешка социјална положба на народот кадешто Вапцаров е, заедничката судбина која ја имаат, но дури и заедничките страдања не будат кај него чувства дека земјата е негова, останува за него „чужда“ (=туѓа!).
|
| HaCkEr` |
I`m living in your mother ass. with.. my dick.. but you must know one thing.. THERE ALWAYS GONE BE A MACEDONIA ON THIS PLACE.. AND MACEDONIAN IN ANY PLACE IN THE WORLD |
| n/a |
AaaAa, do you know some of the famous macedonian poets from the 19th century? |
| Legal-Eagle |
quote:
Originally posted by tsun kai hui
AaaAa, do you know some of the famous macedonian poets from the 19th century?
What sort of a question is that[?]
I dont know them, nor probably does my Grandmother and Grandfather, so is knowledge of Macedonian Poets a measure of .....what[?]
Forgive me for being stupid, unintelligent, uncultured, uneducated, unread, unworldly and docile, but i really dont understand your question nor its intention? Could you be so kind as to elaborate further[?]
|
| Legal-Eagle |
quote:
Originally posted by nikolay
quote:
Originally posted by melpomena
I kade toa pishuva deka tie poeti se Bugari?
Who?
Who says I'm Bulgarian. I say so. And those poets said it.
In their novels and poems. In their books.
The titles and so.
The originals are still present - please go see them and then come back and argue about their nationality.
Nikolay
Dear Nikolay
Your reasoning is somewhat amusing to me. Hmmm, i wonder if i wrote a poem about how wonderful i am whether or not it would have credibility and would i convince the masses of the same. Or do the masses form an educated opinion based on 'facts' (term loosely used) Poems my dear have always been a collation of people's dreams, feelings, experiences, and so forth, and mostly clouded by a great deal of sentimental and emotional ideals. Just because a poet tells you that you are something ... do you really believe it?
I am not denying nor am I debating the fact that you are Bulgarian. You my sweet, can be anything in this whole wide world that you want to be, just as long as you believe it.
This is approximately the third post that i have written in the space of 10 mins. I dont profess to being a great Macedonian Patriot, actually i am more of the contrary. But it irks me to read posts from you and your entourage about absolutely nothing. I have tried to see your side of matters from all angles but however clarity fails me at this point. Which leads me to ask for the third time in my third post ... what is your point? Why are you so insistant that you are Bulgarian, so what? Or are you repeating this issue to the point where you are needing to convince yourself?
To be frank, who cares about the origins of these poems, sure it is 'nice' to know, but poetry is like an artform, it is meant to be enjoyed, and you are taking away all of its pleasure by debating such crap. Should i stop enjoying a great work of art like the Mona Lisa because i dont know if it really is Leonardo in Drag or a interpretation of his gay lover, or the village whore at the time or whatever else ... enjoy the great works of art, music, poetry etc etc. why taint them with your identity crisis? |
| HaCkEr` |
Луѓе.. дај бре одстранете го у курац.
Ми се одмилува форумов. |
| n/a |
quote:
Originally posted by Legal-Eagle
quote:
Originally posted by tsun kai hui
AaaAa, do you know some of the famous macedonian poets from the 19th century?
What sort of a question is that[?]
I dont know them, nor probably does my Grandmother and Grandfather, so is knowledge of Macedonian Poets a measure of .....what[?]
Forgive me for being stupid, unintelligent, uncultured, uneducated, unread, unworldly and docile, but i really dont understand your question nor its intention? Could you be so kind as to elaborate further[?]
Dear Legal-Eagle, I have a powerful will to learn something about the macedonian culture in the 19th century, did I elaborated further enough? |
| Legal-Eagle |
quote:
Originally posted by tsun kai hui
quote:
Originally posted by Legal-Eagle
quote:
Originally posted by tsun kai hui
AaaAa, do you know some of the famous macedonian poets from the 19th century?
What sort of a question is that[?]
I dont know them, nor probably does my Grandmother and Grandfather, so is knowledge of Macedonian Poets a measure of .....what[?]
Forgive me for being stupid, unintelligent, uncultured, uneducated, unread, unworldly and docile, but i really dont understand your question nor its intention? Could you be so kind as to elaborate further[?]
Dear Legal-Eagle, I have a powerful will to learn something about the macedonian culture in the 19th century, did I elaborated further enough?
Hmmm I wonder why i get the feeling that your comment is riddled with sarcasm? In the evident that i am wrong in the following you wil find all the information that you could possibly comprehend for now. Enjoy!
http://members.tripod.com/giorgi10/id51.htm |
| AaaAa |
quote:
Originally posted by edlund
Interesirat me tvorbi na makedonski poeti od 19-ti vek (mozhe i od po rano)
Grigor Prlicev
Konstandin I Dimitar Miladinovci
Joakim Krcovski
Rajko Zinzifov
Kiril Pejcinovich
Ova od glava, mi ide i Koco Racin ama po se izgleda on 20ti ke mu dojde.
Ajde furaj u biblioteka, gi ima prevedeno i na B'lgarski , a ako sakash na Makedonski gi imash na net :)
I daj iznenadi me so toa shto nema da ja prodolzish izvitoperenata prikazna, i pokazi deka sepak ne si glup stereotipen Bugar so lize lizavce a misli deka dudla neshto drugo [:D] |
| AaaAa |
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