Ethnicity of Macedonia (Aegen, Vardar and Pirin)

Ethnicity of Macedonia (Aegen, Vardar and Pirin)
BG_PATRIOT	Prof. G. Wiegland - Die Nationalen Bestrebungen der Balkansvölker. Leipzig 1898 (GERMANY) Total:2,275,000 Bulgarian:1,200,000 Greek:220,000 Turk:695,000 Official Turkish Statistic Ethnicity of Macedonia Philippopoli 1881 (TURKEY) Total:754,353 Bulgarian:500,554 Greek:22,892 Turk:185,535 Journal "Le Temps" Paris 1905 (FRANCE) Total:2,782,000 Bulgarian:1,200,000 Greek:270,000 Turk:1,100,000 Robert Pelletier - La verite sur la Bulgarie. Paris 1913 (FRANCE) Total:1,437,000 Bulgarian:1,172,000 Greek:190,000 Turk:3,036 Leon Dominian - The frontiers of Language and Nationality in Europe. Published for the American Geographical Society of New York 1917 (USA) Total:1,438,084 Bulgarian:1,172,136 Greek:190,047 Turk:12,006 Richard von Mach - Der Machtbereich des bulgarischen Exarchats in der Türkei. Leipzig - Neuchatel, 1906 (GERMANY) Total:1,334,827 Bulgarian:1,166,070 Greek:95,005 Turk:6,036 Prinz Tcherkasky 1877 (RUSSIA) Total:1,771,220 Bulgarian:872,700 Greek:124,250 Turk:516,220 St. Verkovitch 1889 (SERBIA) Total:1,949,043 Bulgarian:1,317,131 Greek:222,740 Turk:322,976 These are ethnic statistics from the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20nd century. There is almost no ressemblance between those statistics, in some Macedonia has a population of 2 million in others less than a million...but there is one thing that is the same in every one, the dominant ethnicity is the Bulgarians. Some people in which we could find the Greek historians say that those statistics aren't reliable because back to those days people played with statistics for national interests, I understand Russia maybe... but I certainly don't understand Germany, France, USA, Turkey and Serbia. Oh yea, and what about Macedonians...lets see, Bulgarians, Greeks, Turks...well, well, well could you believe it there is no Macedonians in the statistics... A distinguished English archeologist and ethnographer, and a well-known authority on the Balkans, Sir Arthur J. Evans was one of the persons chosen by the London Balkan Committee as a member of the British Relief Mission charged with the task of visiting Macedonia after the Great Insurrection of 1903, to distribute aid to the victims of Turkish soldiery called out from Asia to crush the insurrection. Here are some parts of his letter which deals with the Macedonian question and appeared in the London Times on September 30th 1903 "Let me begin by correcting an almost universal fallacy. There are no 'Macedonians'. There are Bulgars..." "...after exploring almost the whole interior of the province, that outside the fringe already referred to, and some small urban centers, practically the whole mass of the population is Slavonic, speaking characteristically Bulgarian dialects." "This great preponderance of the Bulgar element is a fundamental factor in the present situation, which has been much obscured by statistics drawn from Greek sources" By the way in another topic one of my real Bulgarian compatriot said that there is a scientific who will give 100 000 EUR if somebody shows him an authentic document written in Macedonian before WW2. It's true, this scientific is Bojidar Dimitrov Diploma in Bulgarian History, University St. Kliment Ohridski, Sofia Diploma from the Institut of Ancient texts, Paris Dipoma from the School of Paleography and Diplomatie, Secret archives of the Vatican Director of the Bulgarian National Historical Museum 1991-98 Author of 26 books and over 200 studies So like you can see he is a well educated person and very credible. So if you are so sure of your roots, that they are not Bulgarian but Macedonian, just prove it...How could you adhere to the theory, that you are descendants of Alexander and Philip, when you cant even prove your nation existed 50 years ago... How come the banner of the Ohrid insurgent during the Ilinden Uprising has a women on it holding the Bulgarian flag... http://www.ilinden.mk/sliki_ilinden/miafotogInd/83.jpg
Thunder from down under	Why the Macedonians and Bulgarians are Two Separate Nations? 1. The roots of the Macedonians are in ancient Macedonia in Europe , while the roots of the Bulgarians are in the Turko-Morgilic Bulgars who came to Europe from Asia in the 7th century AD. While the Bulgars are intruders in the Balkans, the Macedonians had preserved their name through the centuries and evidence shows that they have always associated themselves with the ancient Macedonians. 2. When the Macedonian king Alexander the Great (336-323 BC) conquered Asia, he too conquered ancient Bulgaria. In the writings of the ancient historian Pseudo-Calisthenes there is a list of the nations that the Macedonians conquered and the Bulgars are on that list along with the Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, and the other conquered nations. 3. When Rome conquered the Balkans, Macedonia and its eastern neighbor Thrace became part of the Roman Empire. In the late 4th century AD with the split of the Roman Empire, Macedonia and Thrace became part of the East Roman (or Byzantine) Empire. 4. In the 6th century the Slavs invaded the Balkans including Macedonia and Thrace and settled among the ancient Macedonians and Thracians. 5. In the 7th century the Turko-Mongolic Bulgars for a very first time entered Europe from their original Asian home, invaded Thrace, and subdued the Thracians and Slavs. Since this moment the mix between the Bulgar intruders, Thracians, and Slavs will result in the formation of the modern Bulgarian nation. 6. The Bulgars also attacked Macedonia, Epirus, Serbia, conquered parts of these lands, and held them for some time but never permanently. Modern Bulgarian historiography claims that the Bulgar conquest of parts of Macedonia transformed the Macedonians and the Slavs in Macedonia into Bulgarians. The claim is quite ridiculous and easily dismissed for the following main reasons: a) There is NO recorded settlement of Bulgars in Macedonia as there is recorded the settlement of the Slavs among the Macedonians, or as is recorded the settlement of Bulgars among the Thracians and Slavs in Thrace. b) The Bulgar intrusion into Macedonia was nothing but a temporary conquest by foreign armies. Because it was a temporary conquest it is impossible to imagine that the Macedonians suddenly "evolved" into Bulgarians. The case is identical with Serbia since the Bulgarian armies also conquered that country. The Serbians as we know did not turn into Bulgarians either. Likewise the conquest of Russia of the Caucasus countries did not turn these people into Russians despite both of centuries of occupation and Russian settlements among the natives. c) The Romans held Macedonia for more then 12 centuries and yet the Macedonians continued to be mentioned as nation in Byzantine sources, both before and after the Bulgarian conquest. Thus, since the Romans did not turn the Macedonians into Romans after 12 centuries it is more then impossible that the Bulgarians could have turned them into Bulgarians after holding parts of that land over a miniscule period of time. 7. Modern Bulgarian historiography also claims that the apostle brothers St. Cyril and Methodius from the 10th century, who came from the largest Macedonian city Salonica were Bulgarians. However such claim is also impossible since Salonica was never taken by the Bulgarians. The city obviously kept its original Macedonian population since Byzantine records of those times call it "the largest city of the Macedonians". Thus, Cyril and Methodius could not be anything else but Macedonians. Cyril and Methodius' father was an important Macedonian in Salonica. It is simply impossible that he or his sons even looked like the typical Turko-Mongolic Bulgarians from the 11th century. 8. Modern Bulgarian historiography denies that the modern Macedonians are descendents of the ancient Macedonians, but ironically it recognizes that the modern Bulgarians are descendents of the ancient Thracians. Right away they contradict themselves since it is impossible to imagine that the Thracians existed in the 7th century when the Bulgars settled among them, while the ancient Macedonians somehow disappeared a century earlier when the Slavs settled Macedonia. The fact that the Macedonians are mentioned as nation and Slavs are mentioned as living side by side by them in Macedonia in the following centuries by the Byzantine historians is proof that the Macedonians did not mysteriously cease to exist. It also proves that the modern Bulgarian historians are attempting to falsify the history of the Macedonian nation to their likes, although unsuccessfully. 9. The Turks entered Europe in the 14th century with the help of the Turko-Mongolic Bulgars conquered the Balkan countries, including Macedonia and Thrace. 10. After centuries of ruthless oppression, the Balkan peoples lost a clear ethnic identification. The Greeks called themselves Romanoi, the Bulgarians called themselves Serbs, Greeks and Bulgars, while the Macedonians called themselves Christians, Bulgarians, Slavs, but also Macedonians. There are Russian, Austrian, German, English sources since the 15th centuries which mention the existence of the Macedonians among their neighbors Serbians, Greeks, and Bulgarians. Furthermore written records show that Macedonians claimed a lineage from Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. 11. In the 19th century when nationalism swept the Balkans and the Greek and Bulgarians strove to develop their own Greek and Bulgarian nationality, so did the Macedonians strove to develop their own Macedonian nationality and consciousness. More and more cases are reported where the Macedonians claimed a distinct nationality as direct descendents of the ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great. The Macedonian rebellions against the Turks in the 19th century, the deeds of the Macedonian intellectuals, and the Macedonian folk and literature have brought up this strong national awakening. 12. Having open appetite to Macedonian land, Bulgaria did everything to suppress the development of the Macedonian national awakening and many Macedonians who fought against the Turks and sought refuge ended up in Bulgarian prisons, or were betrayed and surrendered to the Turks. Such examples were Alexander of Ohrid, father Theodosie of Skopje who attempted to form an independent Macedonian church, Gotse Delchev, Jane Sandanski, Gjorche Petrov, and countless others. 13. That the Bulgarians tried everything to falsify the history of the Macedonians we find proof in the recent discovery of a stone inscription which states that the Macedonians of the 10th century and Czar Samoil were Bulgarians. However, the stone was examined by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences in Sofia and its director himself declared that the inscription was a 19th century Bulgarian fabrication. Thus we have obtained a clear proof that the Bulgarians have been falsifying the history of the Macedonians for more then a century. If Tsar Samoil was indeed a "Bulgarian", there would have been no need to use falsifications in order to show that. It is obvious that the falsifiers were aware that that neither Samoil nor the Macedonians were Bulgarian and with that in mind they created the forgery. Needless to say, modern historiography calls the Bulgarian claims that Samoil was a Bulgarian - absurd. 14. Yet the Bulgarians also contradict themselves in their claim that the Macedonians were "Bulgarians". There are Bulgarian historians like Draganov and Slaveykov, who even since the 19th century admitted that the Macedonians were not Bulgarians but a distinct nation with its own language, culture, and ethnicity. 15. In 1913 Bulgaria, and her allies Serbia and Greece, with the help of more then 100,000 Macedonians who fought along these three armies, drove the Turks out of Macedonia, but Macedonia did not gain its freedom. Instead, the Balkan countries partitioned Macedonia among themselves and Bulgaria occupied 13% of the whole territory, called Pirin Macedonia. 16. Bulgaria now begun an open assimilatory politics against the Macedonians, just like Greece did in Aegean Macedonia, and proclaimed that the Macedonians of Pirin are Bulgarians. Any opposition was brutally suppressed. 17. After helping the Turks to occupy the Balkans in the 14th century, the Bulgarians again sided with the dark side in World War II (1941-1945). As fascist allies of Hitler, the Bulgarian armies occupied the previously occupied Greek and Serbian parts of Macedonia. 18. But the Macedonians defeated the Bulgarian fascist troops and after the war, the government of Bulgaria on August 9, 1946 officially recognized the Macedonian nation and the right of the Pirin part of Macedonia to be attached to the People’s Republic of Macedonia. 19. The Macedonians in Bulgaria exist as separate nationality on all Bulgarian censuses after the end of World War II. The demography data from 1946 revealed that the majority of the population in the Pirin part of Macedonia declared itself as Macedonian in a free census. A period of cultural autonomy and affirmation of the Macedonian national and cultural values had begun. The Macedonian literary language and the national history have been introduced into the educational process. Almost 32,000 pupils were included into the teaching of Macedonian. In 1947 in Gorna Djumaja (Blagoevgrad nowadays) the first Macedonian bookstore and reading room were opened, as well as the Regional Macedonian National Theater. The newspapers in Macedonian such as "Pirinsko delo", "Nova Makedonija", "Mlad Borec" etc. were also published. Literary circles and cultural and artistic associations were founded contributing to the spreading of the Macedonian culture. In the Bulgarian census of 1956, the majority of the population of Pirin again declared itself Macedonian. 20. However, since 1956 Bulgaria has altered her attitude, negating again the existence of the Macedonian nation and forbidding the free expression of Macedonian nationality and language. The idea was enforced and as result, in the census of 1965, the number of Macedonians suddenly dropped to only 8,750 and in the district of Blagoevgrad which previously had the highest percentage of Macedonians, it was "mysteriously" less than 1%. Yet the Macedonians in Bulgaria begun organizing themselves and in 1989, United Macedonian Organization - Ilinden (OMO Ilinden) was formed, demanding cultural and national autonomy for the Macedonians in Pirin. 21. Like Greece, Bulgaria stands accused by the international human rights organizations Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International for denying the Macedonians of Pirin their basic human rights to identify themselves as Macedonians. Nevertheless it is recognized that the Macedonians exist in Bulgaria with their own national consciousness and consist a sizable minority. They organize themselves despite the pressures and intimidation of the Bulgarian police, and continue to peacefully demand their rights which the Bulgarians stripped them off since their army took over Pirin Macedonia in 1913. 22. The Bulgarians and the Macedonians also defer in physical appearance. The typical Mongolic features among the modern Bulgarians are absent among the Macedonians. The ancient Bulgar personal names still common today among the modern Bulgarians are absent among the Macedonians. The Bulgarian and Macedonian folklore and music are much different and none of the Bulgarian khans or other rulers have ever been celebrated among the Macedonians. In contrast stories about the Macedonian kings Alexander the Great and Philip II, and the Macedonian Slav Czar Samoil dominate the Macedonian folklore, music, and dance. Finally, the fact that the Bulgarians have kept their ancient Asiatic name, and the Macedonians have kept their ancient European name speaks clearly that they are aware of the fact they are two different nations with two different ethnic roots.
Thunder from down under	Intro to your country Introduction Bulgaria Top of Page Background: The Bulgars, a Central Asian Turkic tribe, merged with the local Slavic inhabitants in the late 7th century to form the first Bulgarian state. In succeeding centuries, Bulgaria struggled with the Byzantine Empire to assert its place in the Balkans, but by the end of the 14th century the country was overrun by the Ottoman Turks. Bulgaria regained its independence in 1878, but having fought on the losing side in both World Wars, it fell within the Soviet sphere of influence and became a People's Republic in 1946. Communist domination ended in 1990, when Bulgaria held its first multiparty election since World War II and began the contentious process of moving toward political democracy and a market economy while combating inflation, unemployment, corruption, and crime. Today, reforms and democratization keep Bulgaria on a path toward eventual integration into NATO and the EU - with which it began accession negotiations in 2000. source : http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bu.html Ethnic groups: Bulgarian 83.6%, Turk 9.5%, Roma 4.6%, other 2.3% (including Macedonian, Armenian, Tatar, Circassian) (1998)
dejan	BG....you have your sources wrong...where did you get that all? From your anti-Macedonian head? I think so too. Good job Thunder from down under! Now the sucker won't return.
Thunder from down under	quote: Originally posted by BG_PATRIOT By the way in another topic one of my real Bulgarian compatriot said that there is a scientific who will give 100 000 EUR if somebody shows him an authentic document written in Macedonian before WW2. It's true, this scientific is Bojidar Dimitrov Diploma in Bulgarian History, University St. Kliment Ohridski, Sofia Diploma from the Institut of Ancient texts, Paris Dipoma from the School of Paleography and Diplomatie, Secret archives of the Vatican Director of the Bulgarian National Historical Museum 1991-98 Author of 26 books and over 200 studies So like you can see he is a well educated person and very credible. Give this hint "Parteni Zografski (1818-1875)" to you educated friend and tell him to stick his diploma and his 100,000 euros up his ass
Thunder from down under	How many Turks live in Bulgaria?
Dieselsx	What u mean theres no macedonians in the statistics? there all macedonians u fool! check this quote out goes back to B.C "I do not seperate people, as do the narrow-minded, into Greeks and Barbarians. i am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. i only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each good foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek worse than a Barbarian." Alexander of Macedonia its 2004 and people are still narrow-minded, why are europeans so hung up on ethnicity? how backward can u get if u live and were born within the borders of macedonia and declare yourself to be macedonian then ur macedonian like now im also australian, pretty simple stuff adios
Bulgar	It's really interesting how little ppl from macedonia now living in Australia and Canada know about history?The most used "proof" that macedonians are not bulgarians is stating that nowadays bulgarians are Tatars!What a stupidity...There are so many theories about who the proto-bulgars are that i can not mention them all.Let's accept one of the most famoust theories that bulgars were turkic ppl (there is a difference b/n TurkIC and TurkiSH,just for information).Bulgars did not settle only in nowadays northeast Bulgaria and Bessarabia but in many othere lands -- Italy,Germany,Hungary,Bulgaria and Macedonia.Those that went to the territories of presentday Italy,Germany and Hungary were killed or assimilated by the local ppl leaving only a small remnant of there existance - names of rivers,towns,few words and so on.After Great Bulgaria(in the territories of present day Ukrane) "died" bulgars migrated and managed to create 2 independant and one "semi-dependant" states.Danub Bulgaria (present),Volga Bulgaria (existed till 13th century) and Kuber(Kouber) Bulgaria (in the lands of nowadays Pepublic of Macedonia,with its center around presentday Bitola),Kuber Bulgaria was not independent state and was part of the Byzantine empire.Later Danubian(Asparukhian) Bulgaria incorporated Kubrat Bulgaria in the process of territorial enlargement(more info about that in the links below). HOWEVER,the majority of the ppl on the balkans are and still remain of slavic origin - so were the ppl in present day BG and MK...the bulgars where just the ruling class...they were the khans(monarchs) and so on....around 9th century the bulgars were completely assimilated by the slavs...all that remained was there name,organized state, the sense of being bulgarian, a few hundred words and a bunch of other stuff. So calling us bulgarians tatars is brainless!If we were tatars than you are too?!? I am giving you some good site about Proto-Bulgarians!Please read them so you can learn something.As for the CIA site...it's correct ...it's just quite simplified... P.S.Learing more about Bulgarian history is good for you so you can be a better "opponent" in the discussion...for now you know nothing exept the extremely simplified version from The CIA site...please visit the sites I posted... Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium (1991), vol.1, p.338/ About the Bulgars:[url]http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/byzbulgars.html[/url] [url]http://www.bia-bg.com/calendar/aug-txt.htm[/url] [url]http://members.tripod.com/great-bulgaria/Kubrat/Kubrat.html[/url] About the history of the Balkan states: [url]http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/modpeo.htm[/url] About Kouber and the Bulgars that settled in Presentday Republic of Macedonia: [url]http://www.megaone.com/nbulgaria/bulgaria/kubrat.htm[/url] And about Volga Bulgaria [from where all that controversy about the bulgars being tatars came from] [url]http://members.tripod.com/great-bulgaria/Bolgaria[/url] [url][/url]I realy hope you will read what I have posed coz I have had "converastions" with other ppl that came from Macedonia and now living in Canada and Australia and they don't read what I or anybody else post...they just start using the same old five cliches and if someone give them facts they either ignore them or start offending you!!!All I am aming for is a constructive talk.I am sure that I WILL NOT convice you that your ppl had bulgarian identity but at least you are going to learn more about history I guess. Peace!!! quote: Originally posted by russian The truth is that nobody likes the truth especially a bitter one. Why you Bulgarians are so ashamed of your great Uiguro-Turkic past? Look at those greats of your shared past - Ghenghiz Khan, Suleiman the Great, Attillah the Gun. Consider this - being a part of a great Tartar-Bulgar community is not a handicap. And I really didn't mean to offend you. Ok. If you're not originated from Tartars, and you are not of Slavic ancestry, either. Then who are you? Jews? Greeks? Romans? Speak up, please. Very yours, Russian Proslava. Proslava is closer to Macedonian than to Bulgarian because it is a Slavic language. "Russian" I will leave your comment "unnoticed".But do you know how it is proslava in Bulgarian?Well guess what...it's proslava!Ha...how did that come?Wasn't Bulgarian a non-slavic language? Below is an article in Literary Macedonian and in Literary Bulgarian.The original is from Makfax and it's about the death of you president Trajkovski.You find the differences... ÎÒ ÌÀÊÔÀÊÑ - ÌÀÊÅÄÎÍÑÊÀ ÈÍÔÎÐÌÀÖÈÎÍÍÀ ÀÃÅÍÖÈß ÏÐÂÀÍÎÂ: ÒÐÀ£ÊÎÂÑÊÈ ÁÅØÅ ÎËÈÖÅÒÂÎÐÅÍÈÅ ÍÀ ÅÄÈÍÑÒÂÎÒÎ ÍÀ ÌÀÊÅÄÎÍÈ£À "Ìàêåäîíè¼à äåíåñêà ãî çàãóáè ñâî¼îò ïðåòñåäàòåë, à çàåäíî ñî íåãî è ÷îâåêîò êî¼ áåøå îëèöåòâîðåíèå íà åäèíñòâîòî íà äðæàâàòà è êî¼ äî ïîñëåäíèîò äåí ðàáîòåøå çà íå¼çèíî ñòàáèëèçèðàœå è ðàçâî¼, çà íå¼çèíî ïðèáëèæóâàœå, ïðèñîåäèíóâàœå êîí Åâðîïà", èç¼àâè âî ñâî¼àòà ïðâà ðåàêöè¼à áóãàðñêèîò ïðåòñåäàòåë îðƒè Ïðâàíîâ. Èçðàçóâà¼è ñî÷óñòâî äî ãðàƒàíèòå íà ðåïóáëèêà Ìàêåäîíè¼à è ñåìå¼ñòâîòî íà ïðåòñåäàòåëîò Òðà¼êîâñêè, áóãàðñêèîò ïðåòñåäàòåë ðå÷å äåêà "¼óãîèñòî÷íà Åâðîïà äåíåñêà çàãóáèëà åäåí îä ñâîèòå ëèäåðè, êî¼ ãî ãëåäàøå îâî¼ ðåãèîí êàêî íåðàçäåëåí äåë îä Åâðîïà, êàêî åäåí îä ñòîëáîâèòå íà åâðîïñêàòà öèâèëèçàöè¼à". "Äåíåñêà ¼àñ çàãóáèâ íå ñàìî ñâî¼ êîëåãà, òóêó è èñòîìèñëåíèê è åäåí âèñòèíñêè ïðè¼àòåë. Áîðèñ Òðà¼êîâñêè áåøå ïðâèîò äðæàâíèê ñî êîãî ñå ñðåòíàâ îôèöè¼àëíî íà ïî÷åòîêîò íà ìî¼îò ïðåòñåäàòåëñêè ìàíäàò è ñî íåãî ïîñòàâèâìå íîâè, åâðîïñêè íà÷åëà âî îäíîñèòå ìåƒó íàøèòå äâå äðæàâè", ðå÷å áóãàðñêèîò ïðåòñåäàòåë Áîðèñ Ïðâàíîâ. Øåôîò íà áóãàðñêàòà äðæàâà ïîòñåòè äåêà ìàêåäîíñêèîò ïðåòñåäàòåë "âåðóâàë äåêà áàëêàíñêèòå íàðîäè ìîæàò äà æèâåàò âî ìèð è ðàçáèðàœå è äà ñè ïîìàãààò åäíè íà äðóãè. "Âîäåí îä òàêâà ìèñëà, òî¼ äåíåñêà ïàòóâàøå êîí Ìîñòàð è íà òî¼ ïàò ãî ñòèãíà ñìðòòà" In BG: ÏÚÐÂÀÍÎÂ: ÒÐÀÉÊÎÂÑÊÈ ÁÅØÅ ÎËÈÖÅÒÂÎÐÅÍÈÅ ÍÀ ÅÄÈÍÑÒÂÎÒÎ ÍÀ ÌÀÊÅÄÎÍÈß "Ìàêåäîíèÿ äíåñ(êà) çàãóáè ñâîÿ ïðåçèäåíò (ïðåäñåäàòåë), à çàåäíî ñ íåãî è ÷îâåêà, êîéòî áåøå îëèöåòâîðåíèå íà åäèíñòâîòî íà äúðæàâàòà è êîéòî äî ïîñëåäíèÿ äåí ðàáîòåøå çà íåéíîòî ñòàáèëèçèðàíå è ðàçâèòèå, çà íåéíîòî ïðèáëèæàâàíå, ïðèñúåäèíÿâàíå êúì Åâðîïà", çàÿâè â ñâîÿòà ïúðâà ðåàêöèÿ áúëãàðñêèÿò ïðåçèäåíò Ãåîðãè Ïúðâàíîâ. Èçðàçÿâàéêè ñúáîëåçíîâàíèÿ (ñú÷óâñòâèå) äî ãðàæäàíèòå íà ðåïóáëèêà Ìàêåäîíèÿ è ñåìåéñòâîòî íà ïðåçèäåíòà Òðàéêîâñêè, áúëãàðñêèÿò ïðåçèäåíò êàçà (ðå÷å), ÷å "Þãîèçòî÷íà Åâðîïà äíåñ çàãóáè åäèí îò ñâîèòå ëèäåðè, êîèòî ãëåäàõà òîçè ðåãèîí êàòî íåðàçäåëíà ÷àñò (äÿë) îò Åâðîïà, êàòî åäèí îò ñòúëáîâåòå íà åâðîïåéñêàòà öèâèëèçàöèÿ". "Äíåñ àç çàãóáèõ íå ñàìî ñâîé êîëåãà, à (òîêó) è ñúìèøëåíèê è åäèí èñòèíñêè ïðèÿòåë. Áîðèñ Òðàéêîâñêè áåøå ïúðâèÿò äúðæàâíèê, ñ êîãîòî ñå ñðåùíàõ îôèöèàëíî â íà÷àëîòî íà ìîÿ ïðåçèäåíòñêè ìàíäàò è ñ íåãî ïîñòàâèõìå íîâè, åâðîïåéñêè íà÷àëà â îòíîøåíèÿòà ìåæäó íàøèòå äâå äúðæàâè", êàçà áúëãàðñêèÿò ïðåçèäåíò Áîðèñ Ïúðâàíîâ. Øåôúò íà áúëãàðñêàòà äúðæàâà íàïîìíè (ïîäñåòè), ÷å ìàêåäîíñêèÿò ïðåçèäåíò "âÿðâàøå, ÷å áàëêàíñêèòå íàðîäè ìîãàò äà æèâåÿò â ìèð è ðàçáèðàòåëñòî (ðàçáèðàíå) è äà ñè ïîìàãàò åäíè íà äðóãè. "Âîäåí îä òàêàâà ìèñúë, òîé äíåñ ïúòóâàøå êúì Ìîñòàð è ïî òîçè ïàò ãî ñòèãíà ñìúðòòà" Legend: j = é; jà = ß; jó = Þ
Bulgar	Now that we have cleared who were the bulgars lets go on with the other crap in historyofmacedonia - site with no proofs just theories and speculationa...ah and lets not forget the famoust DNA test...yeah right! [url]http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/b_lang/index.html[/url] How many words in your "language" are of bulgar origin my dear friend? a) There is NO recorded settlement of Bulgars in Macedonia as there is recorded the settlement of the Slavs among the Macedonians, or as is recorded the settlement of Bulgars among the Thracians and Slavs in Thrace. Ãðúöêîòî Ëèõíèäàñ /ëúñêàâ, áëåñòÿù/ å çàìåíåíî ñ äðåâíîáúëãàðñêàòà äóìà Îõðèä /îò îêõðî – çëàòî, îõðà – çëàòèñòîæúëò öâÿò/. Ðåêà Àêñèîñ çàïî÷âà äà ñå íàðè÷à Âàðäàð /îò âàð – õóáàâ, ìîãúù, êàêòî è Àñïàðóõîâèòå áúëãàðè íàðè÷àò Îäåñîñ – Âàðíà, è äàð – íàñòàâêà çà ðåêà â Ñðåäíà Àçèÿ – êàòî Àìóäàðÿ, Ñàðúäàðÿ è äð. Lets answer that bullshed from historyofmacedonia little by little I get sick...
Bulgar	Ok I think that the story about Samuil is clear for along time dudes...in all the sources through out the world he's named Bulgarian King.About that fause stoone...well it was declared fouse by the bulgarians it was not created by the state but by an idividual aiming to win some money quite prosaic indeed...[how can that be a proof tha since some one fausified a stone Samuil was not Bulgarian?please!]but there is not a single source where samuil is called Macedonian King...NOT EVEN ONE!!!Everywhere he is called Bulgarian King and He called himself Bulgarian King as we now know for sure after the discovery of a second stone by him a couple of days ago...it's real this time, the bulgarian historians have asked one of yours to came and check it if he wants.It sais: "Ñàìóèë ñàìîäðæåö áóãàðñêè". [well in old Bulgarian and the whole text is longer;read it in english below] Samuil's Stone Stirred Macedonia Thanks to the land mark stone that was found by Austro-Hungarian soldiers in 1917 by the village of Balsha, near Thessalonika, and is kept today in Vienna, we know how far Bulgaria expanded under Simeon's rule. And again, not by chance czar Ivan-Assen immortalized his Klokotnitsa victory on a stone in the Forty Holy Martyrs Church in Veliko Tarnovo. That is why the just found stone with the inscription reading: "Samuil, by Christ, the Lord, a faithful czar and autocrat of all Bulgarians", so much enraged the historians in Skopje. Because this record completely crushes all theories of theirs that a medieval Macedonian state existed. There has been a similar precedent already. Everybody is free to see the so-called Bitola inscription by czar Ivan-Vladislav (1015-1018 - Samuil's nephew. It has the same text - Ivan-Vladislav, czar and autocrat of all Bulgarians. Only it is kept in a museum, and it is turned the other way round. So that nobody could read it. There is a golden rule in history stating that if a document is unique in its type, it is not a document. Only they have just turned out to be two of one type. And it will be a hard job to speak of Macedonian czar Samuil from now on. What is the best for the historians (and the worst for the pseudo-historians) is that such inscriptions are very difficult to counterfeit. And they could be dated for certain. According to the first expert analysis, Samuil's inscription is a thousand years old.
Bulgar	http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/b_lang/bl_west.html More about bulgarian names of the towns in macedonia:Òðàïøè, Êîëøè, Ãîáåøè, Áåëøè, Ãðàìøè ,Îõðèä,Ñòðóãà, Ïðåñïà, Ïðèëåï... "Àêî ñå íàäíèêíå â ãîâîðà íà íàñåëåíèåòî îò Îõðèäñêî, Ïðèëåïñêî, Áèòîëñêî, Êîð÷åíñêî è äðóãè þãîçàïàäíè Áàëêàíñêè çåìè, ùå ñå îòêðèå, ÷å â òÿõ è äî äíåñ ñà ñå çàïàçèëè ãîâîðèìè ôîðìè îò åçèêà íà Êóáåðîâèòå áúëãàðè. Öÿëà ðåäèöà íåîáÿñíåíè äîñåãà äóìè è èçðàçè êàòî ÀÏÎÒÈÍÀÍÎ (à ïúê òè, ìàìî), ÆÈÌÈÁÎÃÀ (Áîãà ìè), ÒÓÃÈÍÀ (÷óæáèíà), ÂÎ ÃÅÐÈÇÎÍ (âúâ âàäàòà), ÊÓ×ÅÍÒÎ (êó÷åòî), ÊÓÊß (êúùàòà), ÒÎÉÍÀÊÀ, ÒßÍÀÊÀ, ÀÇ, ÌÈÅ (îíÿ), ÅÂÎ, ÅÂÅ, ÃÜÎÀ (êàòî-÷å), ÊÎÄ (ñ, ïðè) è äð., ñå ñðåùàò è äî äíåñ íà Èçòîê â çåìèòå, îáèòàâàíè íÿêîãà îò Ïàìèðñêèòå è Êàâêàçêèòå áúëãàðè."
OooOo	aj be ne mlati vishe
DJ_SHEMA	ok, you are right about everything. now fuck off.
marko_polog	Bulgar, Thats what you Bulgarians and Greeks have to hold on too, re-writing history to suit your needs,ever think about living in the present time but that would mean facing the millions of Macedonians all over the world and trying to convince Joe-blow that they don't exist so its much easier to write about the dead,cowardly but understandable, and your propaganda is done for one sole reason TO JUSTIFY THE OCCUPATION OF MACEDONIAN TERRITORY and we understand this,you should not feel threatened by Macedonians,maybe you just feel it is your duty to be an ignorant fuck, Greeks will tell you Macedonians are Greek, Bulgarians will tell you Macedonians are Bulgars, If this is correct then why are you so against a Sovereign Republic of Macedonia, we do not discriminate against anyone, wherever you are from, in your hearts if you feel you are Macedonian, then your one and only home is the Republic of Macedonia, I hope that's logical for you too understand. And I don't want to hear but but.. Bulgar or Greek, psssttt. Where is your propaganda headed in today's age, be realistic your going to deny millions of people that they don't exist with your garbage arguments, who are you trying to convince? Ethnicity, Culture, History is passed on from generation to generation, it doesn't just pop up and go away and let's start all over again like some video game. In other words, get your head out of your ass and start using some common logic.
Bulgar	I know I am right. Well,do you think my favorite thing in the world is spending precious time posting messages on forums like that? Well NO.The problem ppl in RMacedonia have is the following - they accept only what sounds good to them and completely disregard the world around.So wheneve someone says something strong in argumentaion they have 3 choices:1)Curse, 2) they completely ignore you and change the subject. or 3)They do both. Still,in couple of days after the words "heve been forgottan" they start the same old song - the same old bullshit,which have already been proven wrong. Do not expect me to do noting when you are offending my country - if you want to offend us atleast put some proofs into the argument - historyofmacedonia is a fairy-tale - there is not one single proof,only speculations.
Bulgar	quote: Originally posted by marko_polog Bulgar, Thats what you Bulgarians and Greeks have to hold on too, re-writing history to suit your needs,ever think about living in the present time but that would mean facing the millions of Macedonians all over the world and trying to convince Joe-blow that they don't exist so its much easier to write about the dead,cowardly but understandable, and your propaganda is done for one sole reason TO JUSTIFY THE OCCUPATION OF MACEDONIAN TERRITORY and we understand this,you should not feel threatened by Macedonians,maybe you just feel it is your duty to be an ignorant fuck, Greeks will tell you Macedonians are Greek, Bulgarians will tell you Macedonians are Bulgars, If this is correct then why are you so against a Sovereign Republic of Macedonia, we do not discriminate against anyone, wherever you are from, in your hearts if you feel you are Macedonian, then your one and only home is the Republic of Macedonia, I hope that's logical for you too understand. And I don't want to hear but but.. Bulgar or Greek, psssttt. Where is your propaganda headed in today's age, be realistic your going to deny millions of people that they don't exist with your garbage arguments, who are you trying to convince? Ethnicity, Culture, History is passed on from generation to generation, it doesn't just pop up and go away and let's start all over again like some video game. In other words, get your head out of your ass and start using some common logic. What we see here is firstclass typical anwers by a macedonian!Everithing is propaganda,the history has been rewritten and so on...[no proofs for any of the statesment just the same old cliches + occasional curses]please...First lets clear few things up!Who said that macedonians does not exist?Today macedonians DO exist!They live in the Recublic of Macedonia and around the world...denying that is stupid (there where some 5000 in bulgaria in the last census;together with the 2 guys how have declared themselves Marsians!!!)...however the question at hand is where the macedonians came from and not their existance.Why schould we justify an occupation my friend - occupation is a foucefull invasion it does not require justification!!!On the other hand Bulgaria never occupated macedonia in the real sense of the word!It is accepted as a liberation from the serbs! History cannot be rewritten that easily my friend[althought it's possible]...sooner or later the lies come out of the closet.You live in a country with no accepted theory where u came from half of the ppl belive you are not slavs but pure ancient macedons(let's not get into it at this time)...and the other half belives that your state is slavic and that the first state of the Macedonians was that of Samoil - though only in macedonia is this claim issied - again not a single proof - NOT EVEN ONE - now that lie has been finally completely crushed down. Belive in whatever you want, we live in a free world,and I am certainly not expecting you start calling yourself bulgarian...you are Macedonian.... Ah and no-one in bulgaria wants your territory and we are not against a Sovereign Republic of Macedonia!Another conflict will simply make the things worse..we live in the 21th century not in 15th cent.Let history remain history but do not use fausified Titovian one.You are not responsible that they have been told lies in order to unite the ppl in you country.The history that the serbs wrote for you had a certain aim - to unite a land so that it can be incorporated into yugoslavia...now that yougoslavia has gone you should start reassesing you history,in therms of making it more scientific and less propaganda(you favorite word)like... Peace...
graf	lelel what is wrng with u fakin Bulgarian wankers. give it up. You will turn in grrks. You Bulgarian are just the left over of sperm from the turks and the french. You have no history.
Ceki	If we are "small pathetic nohistory noname" nation, tell me then why are there : 2 countrys that want our history 1 country that wants our name 4 countrys that want our territory Slavs that want us to be Slavs, Greeks that want us to be Greeks, Bulgarians that want us to be Bulgarians,.............. And before you say : " but there is not a single source where samuil is called Macedonian King...NOT EVEN ONE!!! " please READ SOME BOOKS, not only bulgarian one, but some other one as well(and i didnt meant greek with that :), you pathetic ...)
Strelec	Bravo Ceki! and welcome na forumov:)
Ceki	Thank you :) Ako sakat toj bugarin, imam uste sto da mu kazam!!! p.s. i know my macedonian is not really shining one, but i ll learn, i promise! Taka e ako ne zivis vo Makedonija.
Strelec	Ceki, ima ovde i poloso sto zboruvaat od tebe... ama imaat poddrska od nas i im go respektirame naporot da go upotrebuvaat makedonskiot jazik!:)
marko_polog	Bulgar, As far as Tito goes, I'll post you an article about him that paints a more clear picture of who he was and where the Macedonians stood at the point where he came in power. The Battle of Srem: The Controversy That Won't Die By Sasha Uzunov July, 27, 2003 The second of August 2003 marks the centenary of the Ilinden Uprising, an unsuccessful attempt to free Macedonia of five hundred years of Turkish Ottoman occupation. Despite being a failure, many historians regard the rebellion as laying the foundations of a future independent Macedonian nation-state. Another event with significant importance, though not given as much attention as Ilinden, is the controversial Battle of Srem. Last January marked the 58 anniversary of the controversial battle of Srem in northwest Serbia. Thousands of Macedonian Partizans were sacrificed against retreating Germans at the Srem Front during the last days of World War Two. Some have argued that Srem represents Macedonia's betrayal by Yugoslav Communist ruler, Josip Broz Tito, and the sabotage of the movement for an independent and unified Macedonia. In 1913, a decade after Ilinden, the Ottoman Turks were eventually kicked out of Macedonia, but unfortunately for the Macedonians, their nation was divided amongst Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. At the end of World War I, Albania received a slice-albeit a small piece of Macedonia. In between the two World Wars, Macedonians in all four parts were denied the right to their own ethnic identity. So it came as no surprise that a movement for the reunification and independence of Macedonia sprung up during World War Two. Macedonians living under Serbo-Yugoslav occupation formed a Partizan movement, under the guidance of a united front consisting of communists and nationalists. Ironically, on 2 August 1944, the People's Republic of Macedonia, the part known as Vardar Macedonia that had been under Serbian domination since 1913, was proclaimed at the ASNOM Conference (Anti-fascist Council for the National Liberation of Macedonia), held at the Prohor Pcinski monastery. ASNOM delegates elected Metodija Andonov-Cento, a non-communist Partizan from Prilep, as Macedonia's first president. Cento's goal was to create a reunified Macedonia, either fully independent or as a republic within the new communist federal Yugoslavia. He wanted to use the Macedonian Partizans for the liberation of Aegean and Pirin Macedonia, the areas under Greek and Bulgarian occupation respectively. But Tito, Svetozar Vukmanovic-Tempo, Montenegrin-Serb communist and Tito's envoy to Macedonia, and Lazar Kolisevski, the pro-Tito boss of the Macedonian Communist Party, were opposed to Cento's plan. They wanted the Partizan units for the Srem campaign, which began in October 1944. Cento and Tempo argued bitterly over the issue. Cento told Tempo: "the units must liberate Macedonia, and if they're sent to Serbia, what will the Macedonian people say?" Tempo responded: "there's no battle of survival here in Vardar Macedonia!" Cento added: "if there is no battle of survival here, there surely is one in Aegean and Pirin." Cento, together with Kuzman Josifoski-Pitu, Macedonian Communist hero, and General Mihajlo Apostolski, led the Partizan units into Aegean Macedonia on December 5, 1943. There, Cento's army engaged the Germans in heavy fighting. A few weeks later Cento arrived in Salonika. Then his army reached eastern Macedonia and fought the pro-Axis Bulgarian forces. The objective of the mission was to lay the foundation for a national uprising in all occupied parts of Macedonia. Three months later, Cento and the Partizan force returned for the ASNOM conference. Vera Aceva, female Partizan leader, described Cento's long march as an outstanding example of heroism. "Cento is very popular with the people." But in 1946, under the direction of Tito and Kolisevski, Cento was sentenced to 11 years hard labour for crimes against the people. Two of the judges in the show trial were Kola Casule, who now promotes himself as a writer/ philosopher, and Lazar Mojsov, later to become Yugoslav Foreign minister and now living in retirement in Belgrade, Serbia. In 1990 A Macedonian court overturned Cento's conviction and he was fully rehabilitated. No criminal proceedings were ever launched against Kolisevski, who died in peaceful retirement in 2000, or Casule and Mojsov. In 1993 ex-political prisoners lobbied the Public Prosecutors office to launch an investigation into a number of Macedonia's Communist ruling elite. But intense pressure from then ruling Social Democrats stopped the investigation. Staff from the Prosecutors office was instructed not to open up a can of historical worms. Stevce Pavlovski, then Macedonia's Public Prosecutor, said in interview in March 1993, that he would have to put "fifty per cent of Macedonia's old Communist in jail for treason. For that reason, no such investigation would take place." When the self-styled nationalist party VMRO-DPMNE came to power in 1998 it also kept quiet about the issue, especially when the son of Kole Casule, Slobodan, became Foreign minister. By September 1944, the Germans had retreated from Greece, Aegean, Vardar and Pirin Macedonia; and by October the British had entered Athens. The Germans were bottled-up in northeastern Yugoslavia, which is the Srem region in Serbia. Srem was seen as the last stand in the Balkans. Winston Churchill, British wartime Prime Minister, wanted to preserved British influence in Greece, including Aegean Macedonia. On 12 August, 1944, he warned Tito not to annex Aegean Macedonia, but conceded in a telegram to his Foreign Secretary, Anthony Eden, that "it will be difficult to stop." A Macedonian Partizan brigade was dispatched to Aegean but, according to Dusan Biber, Slovenian historian and former partisan, on "12 December, 1944, Marshal Tito gave strict orders to the Macedonian Headquarters not to permit the return of the Macedonian brigade to Greece, which would have caused an international scandal." This indicates Tito obeyed Churchill's directive. Macedonia had its own Partizan army (NOVM) but it was forcibly merged with Tito's National Liberation Army of Yugoslavia (NOVJ) in October 1944. Those who refused to serve with NOVJ were executed or imprisoned. Therefore, a distinction must be made between "Yugoslav" and Macedonian Partizans, as they were independent of each other until Tito's takeover of the latter. NOVJ was a 500,000 strong Partizan army, which consisted of 18 army corps (korpus) or 50 divisions. One hundred thousand were Serbs; the other 400,000 non-Serbs. NOVJ was made up of the following formations: the Macedonian 15th and 16th Army Corps, and the Bregalnica-Strumicko Corps; Montenegrin and Hercegovian 2nd Corps; Bosnian 3rd and 5th Corps; Croatian 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th and 11th Corps; and the Slovenian 7th and 9th Corps. The Serbs formed the First Army Group within NOVJ (1st and 12th Proletarian Corps, 13th and 14th Corps) The 400,000 non-Serbian Partizans are broken down into the following categories: Macedonians - 3 Corps: 88,500 Montenegrin - 1 Corps: 29,500 Bosnians - 2 Corps: 59,000 Croats - 5 Corps: 147,500 Slovenians - 2 Corps: 59,000 Other - (Hungarians, Albanians, Italians etc): 16,500 These statistics are based on the book Sremski Front 1944-45, by Milovan Dzelebdzic, Ljubivoje Pajovic and Dusan Uzelac, Beogradski Izdavacko Zavod, Belgrade, Serbia, 1979. The figure of 88,500 indicates that the Macedonians were a major part of NOVJ. NOVJ fought the Axis occupiers, Germany, Italy, and Bulgaria, and their collaborators, Serbian Chetniks, Croatian Ustashe, Slovenian Domobrans, and Albanian Ballists. The Srem campaign got underway in October 1944, and in January 1945 the Macedonian 15th Army Corps entered the fray. This means 29,500 Macedonians were sent to Srem. However, critics of Tito maintain the figure was higher and should include those diverted to Bosnia and Croatia to mop up Axis resistance, and those executed for refusing to serve at Srem. Only an impartial commission of inquiry can discover the true figure. No Macedonian governments-since independence from Yugoslavia in 1991-have responded to calls for such an inquiry. Mitre, 80, is a Macedonian Srem veteran now living in Melbourne. He said he was told that he would be marching to liberate Solun (Salonika). "Instead, we were tricked, and sent to Srem to fight the retreating Germans. We were used as cannon fodder." Tase, 74, said he was in Skopje in 1944 working as a tailor's apprentice but was too young to go into the army. "I remember thousands of men singing and dancing like it was a wedding feast (svadba). They were euphoric about going to Solun. But the commanding officers that were mainly Serbs and pro-Yugoslav communist Macedonians rounded them up and sent them against their will to Srem. They were herded like cattle into train carriages." Jonce, another Srem veteran, begins to shake and tears roll down his face as he recalls his wartime experiences. "I was very lucky. A relative of mine, who knew the truth, told me to keep my mouth shut about going to Solun. Some of my friends, who put their hands up to go there, were taken away and shot. I still have nightmares about it." Milovan Djilas, Montenegrin Marxist and partisan officer, wrote in his memoirs, Wartime, that Aleksandar Rankovic-Leka, with Tito's approval, ran the Srem campaign. Rankovic, a Serb, was expelled from the Yugoslav Communist Party (SKJ) in 1966 for abusing his position as director of UDBa, the secret police. He also opposed the creation of an independent Macedonian Orthodox Church, and orchestrated a ruthless crackdown on ethnic Albanians in Kosovo in the early 1960s. According to Djilas, "Srem was the greatest and bloodiest battle our army (NOVJ) ever fought.Yet it was that battle, that breakthrough, which has been most criticised even from participants: essentially, that all the fighting was superfluous because the Germans were collapsing, and the new (communist) government was already established in Belgrade." Djilas, who later fell out of favour with Tito, was in favour of the Battle of Srem because it "aided the Yugoslav revolution" but the opportunity for Macedonian reunification was lost-probably for ever. Many are quick to point out that Tito was bound by the 'Big Three Agreement' at Yalta not to encroach upon the British sphere of influence in Aegean Macedonia. However, during the Greek Civil War (1946-49), Tito supported the Aegean Macedonian Partizans (SNOF) against the British and US-backed Greek Monarchists. Therefore, Tito broke the Yalta agreement. Josif Stalin, Soviet dictator, also opposed Tito's intervention. Some historians have argued that Tito thwarted Macedonian reunification in 1944, because a strong Macedonia would have seceded from the Yugoslav federation; but advocated Macedonian reunification during the Greek Civil War in order to provoke a split with Stalin. The Yugoslav Communist leader used the Macedonian question as a pawn in his diplomatic game. Djilas points out that Tito used a similar trick with the Slovenians over the city of Trieste, which was in Italian hands. Tito threatened to annex Trieste for Slovenia, but was bluffing in order to squeeze concessions from the British and Americans after the Second World War. In 1949 Yugoslavia broke away from Moscow's orbit, and Britain and the US came to Tito's assistance. He, in return for western support, pulled out of the Greek Civil War and closed the border with Greece. There were instances of Macedonian border guards being forced to shoot ethnic Macedonia refugees and partisans from Aegean. Those who were not shot drowned themselves in Lake Prespa to avoid capture and certain death at the hands of the Greek Monarchist forces. But before the frontier was sealed, over 20,000 Aegean Macedonian children (deca begalci) managed to flee into the Vardar Macedonia and Eastern Europe. Some eventually found their way to Canada, and Australia. So in other words, spare us the Tito crap.
Strelec	Aman sto stori be marko?:))) Sekoja ti cest!:) btw, zirni [url="http://forums.vmacedonia.com/topic.asp?whichpage=8&TOPIC_ID=5095#85909"] OVDE[/url] (da ne recat dushmani deka marko_polog samo politika i istorija go interesira):
graf	Ceki, ova Bulgar can't read any good book, zasto all the bulgarian books are written is shit aahahhahaah
bbbabvbg	Abe zashto ni mrazite?Mrazete politicite ni-i nie gi mrazim [:D] - te ni razdelechiha na svetlinni godini!!! (az idvam na mesec po 2 puti do makedoniq.) kak sa vi promili mozucite?Za kakuv vash ezik govorite?!?Ebasi tolkova li ste tupi ta ne razbirate?!?Ezika si ni e edin-i vashiq i nashiq.zashto evropa se obedinqva-ni e na balkanite se delim spored tova koi-kakuv dialekt govori[:(].zatova sme zadnata skorost na evropata...i pri vas albancite vi machkat-pri nas turcite se domogvat do vlasta. Rimskoto-razdelqi i vladei e v pulna sila.Za men nqma znachenie dali se kazvame makedonci ili bulgari-i dvata roda sa nai veche slavqni!heh,drug e vuprosut kolko sme slavqni-koito ne e minal prez balkanite - toi ne ni e naebal-dvata naroda[:D] Samo ne razbrah zashto kazvate,che samo nas sa ni ebali turcite:)ne,che se zaqjdam,no vie po-dulgo ste bili v imperiqta im:))zatova molqvi ne ni obijdaite!nqkoi ot nas da vi e obidil?e,priznavam,che ponqkoga nqkoi kazva:"teq makedonci sa murdi-ne ni trqbvat";"za kakvo ni e tozi kamunak?";"da se obedinim i da si imame i nie problemi s albancite".vupreki,che na poslednoto edin priqtel voenen kaza:samo da ni pomolqt makedoncite i shte iztikame albancite v moreto!no i toi si govori bez da e pital velikite sili[:o)]puk i nashta armiq e edna...berem sram v iraq,kudeto vuobshte ne trqbvashe da hodim... Abe mai nqma dialog mejdu nas i vas.i moje da vi prozvuchi stranno,no NE MLADITE S"PROMITITE OT PROPAGANDATA?!? MOZUCI" PLACHAT ZA MAKEDONIQ-STARITE BULGARI,KOITO SA SE RAZDELILI S RODNINI!!!!! Mislq,che kato sme obedineni shte sme po-silni-ako shtete durjavata ni da se kazva:Makedonio-bulgarska[:)]imeto za men nqma znachenie. To kato se zamislish kato vlezem v evropata i mahnem granicite-nai-posle shte sme si edinni otnovo[:o)]no po-mi haresva,da sme edinni na balkanite ta da ni zabelejat!sushto ako me pitate i sus surbite bih iskal obedinenie-pak sme slavqni nai-veche:) togava sigurno shte ni jivne ikonomikata:)kato ima svobodno dvijenie na kapitali:)Toku vij sme stanali po-bogati ot zapada(i nie i vie)(tova ne sum go sunuval dori,no na koi mu prechi da mechtae[:o)]) Gledaiki foruma pak ochakvam nqkoi nacionalist ot macedoniq da me popsuva:)no to si e vupros na kultura:)))i nie si gi imame ISTITE:) iskam dialog:)
Ceki	If you want dialog, then please post in english, for me it is very hard to understand your language. Of course, if you know what english is!
kickol	Me raduva sto se prepukuvate so nindzive (tatarive i dzupcive sho do 90 molea da vlezeme da im kupime nesto, ali vreminjata se menuvaat i ne se vo nasa polza sega.) vo ovaj moment pred premierata na filmot za Aleksandar treba da sme dobri i jaki lobisti kako sto se Grcite i Albancite pa da doprinesime nesto vo vrska so naseto ime... Ali normalno se toa zavisi kako ke se postavi naseto ministerstvo za nadvoresni raboti.. daj boze da se postavi na praviot pat.. pozdrav kice
bbbgbgbg	You don't understand macedonian(bulgarian)?!?from where are you?slovenia.And Insult again:"Of course, if you know what english is".What mean that?!?This is stupid!!!If I don't speak english,is that mean I don't know WHAT ENGLISH IS?My english realy is not like my nativ lenguage,but I'll understand you...
Ceki	Íåìà ïîòðåáà äà ñàêàì âóëãàðè, äî êîãà âèå íàñ íå ìðàçåòå, àêî òè ìèñëèø, àêî èìàìå ñëè÷åí ¼àçèê äåêà ñåãà è íèå êå ñòàíåìå âóëãàðè çàðàäè òîà, îíäà ïîäîáðî äà íå ïîñòèðàø íà îâî¼ ôîðóì. Àìà àêî èìàø íåøòî äà êàæèø, ñëîáîäíî êàæè, íå òå áðàíè íèêî¼.