| NATO !! |
| graf |
AIRCRAFT FAILURE IN DOUBT?
Bosnian officials showed signs of irritation with NATO's handling of the crash. Bosnian Foreign Minister Mladen Ivanic said the wreck was quickly spotted by a Bosnian army helicopter after the NATO-led Stabilisation Force (SFOR) allowed them to start looking.
Bosnian deputy state prosecutor Medzida Kreso said a recording of the last conversation between the pilot and Mostar control tower "will be carefully examined on Friday".
She said SFOR was in charge of air traffic control in the Mostar zone.
[:(!][:(!]
How can NATO control a country when they can't even help a plane miss a mountain. |
| graf |
Us To Assist The Investigation
An expert team of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration will arrive in Bosnia and Herzegovina to assist the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina in investigation of the plane accident in which Macedonian President Boris Trajkovski and eight other persons were killed, MIA reported.
Hmm something strange smells here
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| graf |
The flight recorder (black box) was found on Friday and would be transferred on expertise in Paris. |
| graf |
SFOR Responsible For The Crash?
"If the investigation shows that the engine of the plane didn’t run well, the flight controllers on Mostar flight will bear direct responsibility for the plane crash, that is to say the French battalion of SFOR", a source close to Bosnian team, which investigates the plane crash in which Macedonian President Boris Trajkovski and Macedonian delegation were killed, told "Beta" agency.
"At the moment when the plane hit the hill, it was even 650 meters lower than minimally allowed flight height. Also, during the fall, the plane of the Macedonian Government was only 15 air kilometers away from the airport in Mostar. That radius vector is under direct control of SFOR navigation team", says Bosnian Interior Ministry’s source, who wishes to remain anonymous.
According to him, the question arises on "why SFOR, being a direct controller of the flight during whole day and night, didn’t announce the exact location of the plane crash and why the search for the missing plane took 24 hours, if they saw on the navigation system where the plane had crashed".
The source added that, still, these were mere assumptions and that the most credible information would be the one provided from the analysis of the black boxes, A1 Television transmits.
Dnevnik daily in its Saturday issue reported the words of Mladen Ivanovikj, Foreign Miniser of Bosnia and Herzegovina who said Friday that SFOR will be requested to submit more detailed information on the reason why NATO search lasted so long and wasn’t successful.
This information stirred up the doubts that something is definitely wrong with the SFOR’s conduct. How is it possible not to find the plane the whole day when it was away as much as Vodno [Mountain in Skopje’s vicinity] is away from Skopje, at the transparent spot and weather conditions which weren’t so disastrous? Dnevnik daily made an attempt to get a commentary on these dilemmas but Macedonian Minister of Justice Ixet Memeti said that he was satisfied from the search and denied to give any comments until the investigation is completed.
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| Strelec |
Босанските власти и СФОР во конфликт поради изјавите
Контрадикторноста во изјавите на босанските власти доаѓаат од еден извор СФОР. Ова е ставот на официјално Сараево, кое влезе во конфликт со мировниците за времето на акцијата за пронаоѓањето на телата на загинатите. СФОР се брани ние само им олеснувавме на босанските власти.
„За причините на несреќата не може сега да се говори, бидејќи вие знаете дека во вакви случаи некогаш причините се истражуваат со месеци. Ние завчера немавме никакви резултати бидејќи сите информации каде треба да бараме ние исклучуваме да ги добивме од СФОР, бидејќи немавме податоци кои можевме да ги добиеме од домицилните институции“, изјави Дејвид Саливан, портпарол на СФОР.
„Ние сигурно детално ќе изанализираме што се случувало бидејќи прецизно забележани податоци за ртоа што се случуваше во текот на завчерашниот ден“, изјави Бариша Чолак, министер за безбедност во БиХ.
„Ова не се вистините прикажани, бидејќи работите на една ваква голема операција, постојат мали препреки кои треба да се надминат. Да не живееме во минатото, туку во сегашноста. Ние првиот ден ги минавме сите препреки“, додаде Саливан.
/А1 Телевизија/
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| Strelec |
Извор од МВР: „Доколку не откажал моторот одгвоворноста ја сносат СФОР“
„Доколку со истрагата се докаже дека не откажал моторот на авионот, директна одговорност за падот на авионот сносат контролорите на летот од Мостар, односно францускиот батаљон на СФОР“, изјави за агенцијата „Бета“ извор близок до истражниот тим на БиХ, кој го испитува падот на авионот во кој загина македонската делегација предводена од Претседателот Борис Трајковски
„Во моментот на ударот во ридот, авионот бил дури 650 метри пониско од минимално дозволената висина на лет. Исто така, во моментот на падот, авионот на македонската влада се наоѓал на само 15 километри оддалеченост воздушна линија од аеродромот во Мостар. Тој потег е под директна контрола на навигацискиот тим на СФОР“, тврди изворот од Министерството за внатрешни работи на Босна и Херцеговина, кој сакал да остане анонимен
Според него, се поставува прашањето „зошто СФОР, како директен контролор на летот, во текот на целиот ден и ноќ не ја соопшти точната локација на падот на авионот и зошто потрагата по исчезнатиот авион, траела 24 часа, доколку на системот за пратење виделе каде точно паднал авионот
Овој извор додава дека, сепак, ова се претпоставки и оти најмеродавна информација ќе даде анлаизата на црните кутии.
/А1 Телевизија/
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| Strelec |
Падот на авионот обвиен во многу неразјаснети околности
Македонскиот „Кингер“ паднал на 7 километри оддалеченост од пистата во Мостар и тоа летал во правец кон аеродромот велат најновите информации до кои дојде А1.
Спорно е зошто авионот летал на висина од 500 метри во толку опасен планински предел. Според една од верзиите на настанот што ја пренесоа светски агенции, леталото движејќи се низ густа магла удрило во планинскиот рид Матич Грабовичи.
Во тој момент едното крило и едниот од моторите се отцепува од авионот, а трупот на леталото во слободен пад се стрмоглавил кон подножјето на ридот, кога најверојатно и експлодирал. Авионот претходно ги отворил тркалата што упатува на фактот дека или се движел кон пистата или пак се обидувал принудно да слета на низината што следела по кобниот рид Матич Грабовичи.
Најчудно во сево ова е зошто екипажот на авионот немал контакт со контролата на летање.
„Најчестата причина за еден авион да исчезне од радарот е оваа што се случи, не би рекол дека тој исчезнал претходно. Мое мислење е дека исчезнал во моментот на несреќата. А инаку од радарот може да исчезне доколку има препрека пред самиот радар, односно авионот да се наоѓа под висина на пречката која се наоѓа на радарот“, изјави Ѓорѓи Чачкаров поранешен директор на УЦВП.
Експертите велат дека капетанот на авинот никогаш не го управува леталото врз база на тоа што го гледа пред себе, туку ги следи упатствата и координатите што му ги дава контролата на летање, а особено кога има магла и невреме.
Нелогичниот лет на висина од 500 метри во планински предел ја отвора дилемата дали имало грешки во комуникацијата на пилотот со контролата на летање.
„Доколку метереолошките услови се тргнати, доколку авионот е исправен што останува да биде, факторот човек“, потенцира Чачкаров.
За причините за уривањето на македонскиот „Кингер“ засега само може да се нагаѓа. Вистината е во црната кутија.
/А1 Телевизија/
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| Strelec |
ЦРВЕНКОВСКИ - МНОГУ ГРЕШКИ ВО ИСТРАГАТА НА СФОР
Преседателот на Владата на Република Македонија Бранко Црвенковски изрази убедување дека "од првиот ден од истрагата веднаш по трагичниот настан", уривањето на авионот на претседателот Борис Трајковски, "истрагата ја следеле доста грешки од страна на СФОР во комуникацијата со јавноста".
Овој став на Црвенковски, како што официјално соопшти Агенцијата за информации во Скопје, синоќа му бил изнесен на висок претставник на СФОР во Сараево, каде ненадејно отпатува висока макеоднска владина делегација. Делегацијата во која се наоѓа и министерот за внатрешни работи Хари Костов и портпаролот на Кабинетот на Трајковски, Андреј Лепавцев, денеска престојува во Мостар, каде што продолжува идентификацијата на телата на деветте загинати во авионската несреќа.
/MAKFAX/
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| ozonce |
sekoja chst za toa kko bosanskite vlasti gi perkaat SFOR, e takvo neshto da pravime i nie ke ne bidde:)
isto i hrvatite gi pleskaat SFOR, a nashite kako pichki se plashat da kazat eden losh zbor za niv! (zboruvam za profesionalci od oblasta na vozduhoplovstvoto) |
| Thunder from down under |
mafija mate |
| graf |
mate ke vidime ako ne go najde BLACK BOX |
| graf |
da ama the macedonian shouldn't be scared |
| ozonce |
da NE TREBA! |
| graf |
sto e ova . the black box recording from the air carft is missing the first 7 minutes. And that the aircarft controller only spoke in french when the language for international air traffic is english !!!!
Also is it true that there were sighting that the plane was on fire before it crashed ??? |
| Thunder from down under |
mate abe the bastards shot the plane down
thats way they delayit for 24 hours to make sure there is no evidence left behing |
| graf |
ama mate u seen any news about the missing 7 min from the black box ???? |
| Thunder from down under |
no,
but i can imagine what they are up to
and where they are going,and how they will
try to brainwashed people and you will see
that lots of people soon will start to belive them
they are experts for that,they will aslo try to turn people agains france ,that was one of they ideas anyways |
| graf |
i want more infor za ova :) |
| Thunder from down under |
Americans to Build AMBO Oil Pipeline
The latest report of the US Agency for Energy that was published at the end of January this year announces the building of the AMBO oil pipeline, which is to begin in 2005 and be completed in 2008. The pipeline will link the Burgas port with the port of Durres in Albania, transiting through Macedonia, and making the Balkan region an important transit centre for the transport of Russian and Caspian oil. The pipeline will be long 900 km and have a capacity of 750,000 barrels a day, while 930 million dollars, out of the overall 1.2 billion, have been secured, by the World Bank, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the IMF, and the US Export-Import Bank |
| OooOo |
quote:
Originally posted by Thunder from down under
Americans to Build AMBO Oil Pipeline
The latest report of the US Agency for Energy that was published at the end of January this year announces the building of the AMBO oil pipeline, which is to begin in 2005 and be completed in 2008. The pipeline will link the Burgas port with the port of Durres in Albania, transiting through Macedonia, and making the Balkan region an important transit centre for the transport of Russian and Caspian oil. The pipeline will be long 900 km and have a capacity of 750,000 barrels a day, while 930 million dollars, out of the overall 1.2 billion, have been secured, by the World Bank, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the IMF, and the US Export-Import Bank
Ova shto ti sega go pishuvash, go kazha eden Ruski general 1999 koga NATO ja bombardirashe Jugoslavija.
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| Strelec |
А слична теорија имаше и еден канадски универзитетски професор од Ottawa, во поглед на тоа зошто албанските теротисти во Македонија ја имаа американската индиректна поддршка!
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| Thunder from down under |
vcera slusav na makedonskoto radio na SBS deka poslednite 3 letovi ne bile voopsto registrirani?
nesto bila rasipana nekoja aluminiumska kaseta vnatre i nekojsi " ceshli" ne rabotele
????????????? |
| graf |
hmmmmm . there is a cover up !!! |
| graf |
Macedonia's New Mystery: The Death of a President and What It Portends
by Christopher Deliso
Barely two weeks ago Macedonian President Boris Trajkovski met his death in the foggy hills of Bosnia, and already a charged debate has arisen regarding not only the cause of the crash but also Trajkovski's posthumous remembrance. Some foreign and Macedonian critics are charging their leaders with hypocrisy for allegedly sanctifying a president who was until recently "despised." Then there is the "international community," whose reaction of undying praise has decisively shaped the mass media's portrayal of the man, perhaps forever.
Yet through all this sound and fury, underlying everything is the recklessness with which interested parties are rushing to oversimplify things. Regardless of their differing reactions, these parties (who have multiplied exponentially since the president's death) seem to be united in the desire to justify the past and shape the future of Macedonia's political horizons by extracting meaning from the event.
The Crash: a Synopsis
Thus far, fact is almost inseparable from speculation. What we do know is this: The president's plane crashed approximately 10-15 kilometers south of its destination, Mostar, while beginning its final descent in the midst of a heavy storm. On the 1.5 hour flight from Skopje, the plane had to cross the airspaces of 5 countries – Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro, and, briefly, Croatia, before landing in Bosnia. Macedonia's civil aviation authority soon claimed that it had warned the pilots not to fly because of treacherous weather conditions in Bosnia. The storm did indeed cause other conference delegations to turn back.
The plane's black boxes are undergoing examination in Germany, and in about a month the final report will be released. Preliminary findings are on their way, the government announced Tuesday. Now, in the absence of solid information, the whole amorphous affair is already taking on uniquely Balkan conspiratorial tones.
Pilot Error?
While a Bosnian newspaper blamed the crash on pilot error, the son of lead pilot Marko Markovski, civil aviation official Zoran Markovski rejected this possibility. Experienced Macedonian pilots surveyed by Dnevnik newspaper agreed that Markovski Sr. was "one of the best," a flight instructor and pilot with 30 year's flying experience in both military and civilian aircraft, a man who had wide experience flying intercontinental and European routes.
The expertise of co-pilot Branko Ivanovski, an experienced officer in the Macedonian air force, is supported by a leaked US Air Force document that I have seen. Dated April 7, 2000, the document records Ivanovski's attendance at a 5-week squadron officer course at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. Signed by a USAF colonel, the document commends Ivanovski's abilities, stating that he displayed "top analytical and decision-making skills," and also "excelled in extremely challenging, dynamic leadership situations."
Communication Breakdown?
Alternatively, some have argued for a communications error between the ground controllers and the plane's pilots. On February 26, French NATO Stabilization Force (SFOR) military officers were operating Mostar's control tower. Bosnian media who spoke with investigators claim that audio tapes record 25 minutes of recorded ground-pilot conversation – followed by a seven-minute silence preceding the crash. An aviation expert told Skopje's Dnevnik that:
"…seven minutes is too long a period of time [to be out of contact]. The position of the airplane in that time could change. The local Mostar control team must inform the regional air control team that they have lost contact with the plane. For sure the regional control would then intervene. They shouldn't have waited so long to get in contact again."
According to Kire Kaevski, a former Macedonian government pilot, Markovski and Ivanovski were relying on a combination of DME (distance measuring equipment) and Mostar Airport's VOR (very high frequency omni-directional range), a commonly used navigation aid operating in the 108-118 Mhz band. This system allows the control tower to transmit a two-phase directional signal which is picked up by the aircraft's VOR receiver. The pilot can then identify his radial or bearing, and changes his location upon instruction from the ground controllers. The pilot depends on the control tower to "…give him permission to fly to other points on the [aeronautical] map." Adds another pilot,
"…when it is very foggy there, you have to land 'blind.' You should listen very carefully to the flight controller. …Mostar airport is very difficult for landing."
Did NATO Kill the President?
On Friday, February 27, the day after the crash, a Bosnian Interior Ministry official raised a provocative question:
"…at the moment when the plane hit the hill, it was 650 meters lower than the minimally allowed flight height. Also, during the fall, the plane of the Macedonian Government was only 15 air kilometers away from the airport in Mostar. That radius vector is under direct control of SFOR's navigation team."
The implications were apparent. Mladen Ivanovikj, Foreign Minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina, stated ominously on the 27th that "SFOR will be requested to provide more information." The media jumped at the chance to confirm NATO's biggest Balkan blunder.
The most controversial, and, therefore, most popular, charge is that SFOR air traffic controllers demonstrated negligence either by ignoring the incoming Macedonian plane or by allowing it to fly too low. This theory has been aired by various Bosnian Interior Ministry officials, Macedonian investigators, and the media in both countries.
Some also allege that the plane was locked into a dangerous air corridor, too close to another, safe, corridor. Mostar was a popular destination on February 26 because of the international investment conference to which President Trajkovski and other regional leaders were headed. Several of the delegations, including that of the Albanians, who shared the Macedonian's flight path turned back because of the bad weather. Is it possible that the SFOR controllers mistakenly allotted a dangerous route to the Macedonians in their haste to prepare for so many planes all arriving nearly simultaneously?
Another much less credible possibility – that the pilots couldn't communicate with the ground controllers because the latter were French and speaking in their own language – was thankfully laid to rest in Tuesday's statement from the government.
The Apparent Justification: A Late and Faulty Search
The principal evidence against SFOR, for Macedonian and Bosnian critics, is the fact that it took over 24 hours for the wreckage of the plane to be found. The plane disappeared at 8:20 AM on the 26th, and for an entire day, SFOR, citing dangerous weather conditions, didn't allow air searches. Only ground searches were conducted, but slowly and ineffectually (the area remains heavily mined from the Bosnian War). SFOR Spokesman Captain Dave Sullivan stated on Tuesday, March 2, that, "…because of the bad weather, the investigation was limited to visual searching of the area. Even infrared searching was not possible."
This explanation was attacked at once. Given that the air traffic controllers knew the plane's last coordinates, and that it should have automatically emitted an emergency radio signal upon crashing, critics argued, why did SFOR fail to locate the wreckage quickly? And why were the Bosnian search teams – the world's best at working in minefields – prevented from searching?
According to the above-mentioned Bosnian official,
"…the question arises as to why SFOR, being the direct controller of the flight during the whole day and night, didn't announce the exact location of the plane crash and why the search for the missing plane took 24 hours, if they saw on the navigation system where the plane had crashed."
Zoran Markovski, himself an air traffic controller, agreed:
"…they [Mostar's SFOR controllers] can register the exact geographic position of the plane, its height and speed. Yet the plane was found 26 hours after the accident and was only 10 kilometers from the airport, and crashed during the landing phase. Why wasn't the Bosnian search team activated – the one which during the war found a crashed plane and saved the pilot in just 17 minutes?"
Rising Tensions
The mutual mistrust was compounded by unverified statements that the French air traffic controllers in question had fled Bosnia after the crash. On 1 March, Macedonian Prime Minister Branko Crvenkovski thundered, "…I don't know whether they are out of Bosnia or not but wherever they are they cannot avoid being investigated."
Two days later, SFOR spokesman Norbert Hoerpel was claiming that the French air controllers had already been interrogated by investigators. However, Bosnian State Prosecutor and chief of the investigation Vaso Marinkovic rebuked him: "…no one from our team has talked with them. I do not have information [as to] whom they have…talked [to], but certainly they have had no talks with us."
In response, Hoerpel stated, "…I know that they [the alleged interrogators] were members of the Air Accident Investigation Committee, but I do not know their names." Simultaneously, damage control was being carried out by Bosnia's Europolice spokesman, Kirsten Haupt, who "…denied accusations that Europolice might be responsible for the disinformation…on the day of the accident."
A Conspiracy – Or Just a Bad Plane?
A final explanation offered was that the 26-year-old Beechcraft King Air 200 suffered mechanical failure. A former foreign minister, Slobodan Casule, claimed that the windshield of the very same plane had once blown out during a flight over Romania. In fact, it is said that President Trajkovski himself once refused to take the plane, deeming it unsafe. There was also a mysterious claim of a pre-clash explosion on the plane.
Slobodan Casule, a former Foreign Minister, claimed that the crashed plane had almost endangered his life on one occasion. Stojan Andov of the Liberal Party is on his right.
Yet although less conspiratorial this explanation is just as politically charged as the others. Indeed, even if a Macedonian president could never hope to have a jet like the one George W. Bush enjoys, should he really be condemned to fly on a twin-engine relic? Casule claimed that "public outcry" had prevented the country from spending more money on a better plane.
No wonder then that the government has diverted public attention by taking the offensive against SFOR. If it turns out that mechanical and not human error was behind the crash, it will be hard to avoid the embarrassing conclusion that, all heartfelt expressions of sympathy aside, the country actually cares very little for the well-being of its leaders. And this is where we leave the investigation behind and enter into the still more shadowy realm of symbol.
Sympathy for the Deceased
Macedonia is a small and vulnerable country, whose very future remains an open question. No matter what individual Macedonians may have felt about Boris Trajkovski, the sudden elimination of their most visible public leader could only increase the latent pessimism of a people who feel their country is living on borrowed time.
PM Crvenkovski (center) with Speaker of Parliament and Acting President Ljubco Yordanovski (left) and Supreme Court head Ljiljana Ristova-Ingilizova (right)
It is nevertheless remarkable that the president's death has sparked so much emotion. Despite his oft-criticized pandering to Albanian interests, and apparent clownishness, Trajkovski was neither controversial nor hated. Those who loved him in both life and death are the exception – and that is why the mass outpouring of emotion has been so remarkable.
President of the European Commission Romano Prodi addresses the funeral crowd.
In actuality, the public's widely sympathetic reaction to the president's death indicates that no one was particularly offended by him. In fact, even the criticism of Trajkovski over his frequent concessions to the Albanians, such as the recent Tetovo university legalization, were meted out with a grain of salt. Embittered Macedonians know the score. Any president of their compromised little country is duty-bound to serve the United States and European Union. And if ethnic federalization is part of the larger plan, then not even he can stop it.
Prime Minister Branko Crvenkovski speaking at President Trajkovski's funeral last Friday
Still, the charge of "hypocrisy" has been levied. Yet for the majority of Macedonians, jaded, despairing and fatalistic as they are, their posthumous about-face amounts to merely a display of regretful embarrassment. Of course, we can be sure that plenty of other regular citizens suffered true remorse of conscience for having once disparaged the deceased. Yet this is a thoroughly universal reaction that can be observed when anyone dies, anywhere in the world. As such, there was little worth interpreting so far as Macedonia's public reaction went.
Pallbearers of the military guard salute and carry the president's casket towards the grave.
Diverging Laments
What was telling, however, was the differences between foreign and local laments. Macedonians repeatedly voiced their sadness for Trajkovski, "first as a man, and then as a president," – the implication being that they felt sympathy for the president as a person, and for his father, brothers, widowed wife, and two children. Yet judging from the Western reaction, one would think that the sublime Boris Trajkovski was instead fond of kissing Human Rights and Ethnic Tolerance on the cheek before tucking them in to bed at night.
Thousands of people from all over Macedonia waited to watch the president's casket be brought out from the parliament building.
True, the president's cooperation with Western plans for hackneyed inter-ethnic harmony made him a butt of jokes in the Macedonian'media. One weekly magazine's cartoon often depicted Trajkovski in his bed, dressed in red white and blue boxer shorts, taking his orders by phone from Washington. This allegiance to American wishes was seen when the "peacemaker president," as the Western media has eulogized him, gave his full support for the Iraq War. Yet, when not even larger and more established countries don't dare oppose the Empire's will, who could really hold this against him?
Sadly, this compliance did little for either Trajkovski or for Macedonia. In the weeks before his death, the president was increasingly being regarded as politically irrelevant, and was even forgotten by the fickle Americans. According to Dnevnik, Trajkovski had recently solicited the major Macedonian and Albanian parties, and found no one willing to support his candidacy for re-election in November.
The funeral procession gets underway from the Parliament.
Yet now that the president is truly gone, the Western media and diplomatic corps are not willing to let him go. He has just too many uses. And so a man whose political survival was in doubt only two weeks ago has become unbeatable in death. The legacy of Boris Trajkovski is now being manipulated, with neither fairness nor reason, to symbolize every abstract valuethat the West would like to instill in the Balkans. And the president's successor will be obliged to adhere to these values, and the rhetoric employed in their defense – regardless of the effect on Macedonia's future existence.
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| Canmak |
LOL you guys are hilarious, Everything is Nato's fault with you guys. Shit if anyone had to gain anything from the presidents death it was VMRO......they need the sympathy votes for next election |
| Canmak |
Someone posted this on another site:
That area where Trajkovski's plane went down is very bad for planes.
1) Trajkovski's plane goes down.
2) Secretary Brown's (Clinton's Secretary of Commerce) plane goes down there after the war in Bosnia.
3) Djemal Bijedic's (Yugoslav Premier, and Foreign Minister under Tito) plane goes down, he is killed in the crash.
4) Many Germany planes go down in the area during the Battle of Sutjeska. The German commander said that "the planes were just falling out of the sky." |
| graf |
everything is the USA government fault |
| SLaCk |
The only one that can gain something from this is NATO and EU.They will insist on continuing what Boris started - Ohrid framework.if someone says smt against that will be criticized and blacken.They all think that we are some kind of morons.Macedonia belongs to the Macedonians not to NATO or EU or anyone else. |
| graf |
that is correct ama lots of ppl want macedonian |
| јузер |
НАТО у блато, како што би рекол еден наш бугарски колега. |