| A few questions about Macedonia |
| Iber |
Hi there, I have a few questions for Macedonians.
First, I would like to know what do Macedonians think of this paper published by Prof. Arnáiz Villena:
[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract[/url]
Do Macedonians consider themselves to be of Slavic origin or ancient Mediterraneans?
What other ethnic groups exist in Macedonia, and what's their incidence and approximate numbers (or percentages)?
Are there any existing scripts of the ancient Macedonian language?
What are the current politics and economics like in Macedonia?
What are the current relations between Macedonia and its former Yugoslavian partners:
- Serbia & Montenegro
- Croatians and Slovenians
... and with Bulgaria and Greece?
What are the figures (numbers or percentages) for Christian Orthodox, Christian Catholic and Muslim?
Do any of these religions have any ethnical group(s) linked to them?
Thanks in advance.
P.S. I'd like the answers from Macedonians. Please, other nationalities refrain from giving their personal views. |
| MakedonskoMomice |
we macedonians are balkans, not slavic and as far as i know there are minority groups like albanians living in macedonia, but macedonians are still the predominant group (thank god)[:)] |
| MakedonskoMomice |
also, from what i have been told by my mum and dad, macedonians and greeks do not get along at ALL, because the greeks, being the ignorant people they are (no offense), believe that alexander the great is greek and not macedonian. how absurd! |
| Iber |
quote:
Originally posted by Strelec
There are so many questions, Iber...
But I think that [url="http://forums.vmacedonia.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5047"] HERE[/url] you can find lot of answers you want to know!
Thank you... but not quite what I was looking for. That looks pretty much like what I could find in a page of the CIA factbook ... you know, it's supposed to inform but they really don't want to give much information away ;)
All I've been able to get from there is that Muslim religion exists, probably, only because of ethnic Albanians. Which actually poses yet another set of questions:
What are the social, political and racial relations between Christians, ethnic Macedonians and Muslim, ethnic Albanians?
Do Macedonians consider those Albanians as fellow co-nationals or immigrants?
I know it's a lot of questioning, but I'd like to get some deeper insight into Macedonia.
Deni, I know you are Macedonians, but that's an ethnic/national definition. I was thinking more into racial groups/sub-groups. For example, Spaniards, Italians, Portuguese and Southern French are close people because we are all (Western-) Mediterraneans. Likewise, Germans, Dutch, English and Scandinavians are close because they are, more or less, Nordics or Germanics.
Thunder, the paper I refer to actually says you are Mediterraneans, which should prove that you carry the DNA of the people who lived in the area thousands of years ago. Since it's a scientific work I have to give it much credibility. Besides, I'm interested in the author's findings, which is why I came to ask all these questions.
Saludos. |
| deni |
www.historyofmacedonia.org |
| Ceki |
I personaly think we should hae at least one protest during the games, we ares peaceful and thats are major problem, we dont want to harm other people. But come on, are we gonna wait until they steal our name.
And protesting during games isnt a bad idea, they think they are democratic and fair, and so on, country, and the world also thinks that. By protesting OR EVEN boycotting games we will just show the world we exist and are not afraid of anyone.
Just when i think what propaganda will there be during games, it makes me SICK!!!!! I can just imagine, tshirts with GREEK FLAG AND ALEXANDER THE GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
COME ON PEOPLE WAKE UP PLEASE!!!!!! |
| Strelec |
There are so many questions, Iber...
But I think that [url="http://forums.vmacedonia.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5047"] HERE[/url] you can find lot of answers you want to know!
|
| deni |
we are not slavic that's for sure |
| deni |
we are Macedonians. |
| Thunder from down under |
it is not possible for us to be slavs,
slavs come from rusia in the area in the 7th century
together with bulgarians we were there
loooooooooooooong time before slavs 1000`s of years
dont need to look any papers
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| AaaAa |
Most of you need to go and read something about your own history before you start lecturing foreigners on it.
Maverik, the Bulgarians are Slavs, and so are we. The difference being that we (the Macedonians) are a mixture of the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians ( so we believe and some historical facts support us) who inhabited our region and the Slavs who moved south from the Carpathian region (thus the term southern Slavs) sometime around the 6th century. The Bulgarians on the other hand are a mixture of the arriving Slavs and the already present Tatar population in that region, you can continue the list with the Serbs, Russians and all other Slavic people (or partially Slavic if you wish).
It's a historical fact that the Slavs upon their arrival, were aggressive in their nature; they overwhelmed the region they inhabited and managed to impose their culture and tradition to a greater degree than most of us would like to believe.
The Macedonian language is a Slavic language as considered by most of the world linguists, not only is it Slavic but it's the origin of all of today’s Slavic languages (Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian and so on).
To say you are a Slav is not to say that you are not Macedonian. The same is with calling yourself a Hellen, does that mean you are not a Greek? Off course you are Greek, with a Hellenic ethnic heritage (remember not all Greeks are Hellens).
The issue over the name is only a political debate not an anthropological one. It's a debate over tourism, which history attracts as we all well know. The Greek outrage with our genuine feeling of having the right to call ourselves Macedonians, has nothing to do with them believing otherwise, but with their struggle to contain some piece of that history that their Hellenic predecessors had no clue would have such a great impact on the world to come ( the Hellens considered Alexander the Macedonian to be a barbarian, remember?).
Finally, makedonskomomice, yes we are Balkan people, but that's a geographical term; we occupy the Balkan peninsula, as do many other Slavic and non-Slavic people alike.
This is not only what I was taught in school, but this is all that I can find in western and eastern literature I come upon. Furthermore, don’t forget, in so many centuries of coexistence between the people of the Balkans there has been a lot of intermixing that has changed a lot of the factual physical traits; it’s something else that matters.
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| Maverik |
quote:
Originally posted by HanAvitohol
Well, if Macedonians are not Slavs, why do they speak a slavic language and have slavic names?! Are there any written documents in "macedonian", not in Greek letters?! Could a greek read and understadn that writing?!
How come that Bulgarians are also not slavs but are speaking a slavic language? |
| Thunder from down under |
the name slavic it should have been Macedonian language,but the anglosaxon scholars made a mistake by starting to call it slavic |
| Ceki |
Tuka vo slovenija ne se ucime mnogu za Makedonija, i se e mnogu cudno da vi kazam! Za antickite Makedonci velat deka se grci, za Samoil deka e Makedonec, za noviot vek pak da sme Makedonci .
Ucime za podeluvanjeto na Makedonija, ne znam zasto toa zborvat, ako rekoa deka bile antickite Makedonci grci, vo toj slucaj bi trebale da zborvat za 1913, kako godina koga grcija se zdruzi, a ne Makedonija da se podeli.
Ko sto gledate se e izmesano, tie sami ne znaat sto zborvat, i mislam deka taka nesto ucat i vo drugi zapadni zemji.
Zato barem nie da sme svestni koj sme i sto sme. |
| the balkan barbarian |
This is to you Mr Hanavitohol and or maverik
to answer your questions Macedonians are not Slavic but rather Balkan we do not speak or have a Slavic dialect but a Macedonian one and for western purposes we are categorised unfortunately under these mistaken guidelines and in regards to your question relating the language itself, don’t you think that that in it's self, is self explanatory? Of coarse we have a written language, a language that is separate from Greek, Bulgarian, Croation, Albanian and the rest of the boardering neighbours just like our traditions and days of rest, and if you are really interested go and check that web site that deni referred to (historyofmacedonia.org)
The biggest problem is that the west fucked up in documenting the pages of history and has let it go for too long and as a result we as Macedonians have suffered along side many other nations just one to mention the Armenians. But I guess in a way that is how the table turns. Thousands of years ago Macedonia was the super power of the world conquering lands that spread from the Mediterranean right across to Africa killing and suppressing nationalities and races as Alexander drove his armies through the playing fields. seen buy the Greeks at that time and maybe even now as barbarians, and the funny thing is that if I have my facts right.....the only claim Greece has over Alexander the great being a Greek is that his remains and tomb were found in northern Greece, and what was northern Greece before the turn of the twentieth century? A Macedonian state under ottoman rule. After the Ottoman Empire collapsed and rebel Macedonians drove remaining ottoman patriots the country and people were vulnerable to invasion, and that’s exactly what happened. Hope that this gives you a little bit more clarity to the topic.....
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| ¼óçåð |
It's all mixed up here in the Balkans,
Every nation has it's own interpretation of it's history, so finding the truth is very complicated.
For example, Alexander the Great is greek for greeks, but macedonian for us macedonians.
That's why the greeks deny our name Macedonia. |
| the balkan barbarian |
i get the feeling that there is a big part of history missing!!!!!
i was reading in this book that is greek biast using greek references called 'who are the macedonians' and in this book after the turn of the 20th century after the collapse of the ottomon empire greek male civilians were paid or got some money from the government if they were to marry a macedonian and convert them over to being greek and also they published books that told their version of the history around the balkan area and gave them to western libraries and schools around the world to try and magnify ehat they see as being the truth. hows that i mean to what extent are these greeks willing to go?
i have also heard that thier is big pressure put on the greek government to solve the norther greek issue before the olympics by the un and eu parties, it would be nice to go and on the opening night of the olympics start a protest and just fuck it right up for them......
|
| OooOo |
quote:
Originally posted by the balkan barbarian
i have also heard that thier is big pressure put on the greek government to solve the norther greek issue before the olympics by the un and eu parties, it would be nice to go and on the opening night of the olympics start a protest and just fuck it right up for them......
I personally think that this is not going to happen, for a simple reason that Macedonians are peaceful people, no matter what Greeks think or say.
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| Christian |
quote:
Maverik, the Bulgarians are Slavs, and so are we.
jok!
quote:
the Hellens considered Alexander the Macedonian to be a barbarian, remember?
e sega ima smisla.
|
| andreas |
i have some questions for u....
first off all am from greece and this is my first post.
i read alot on this forum that greeks claim macedonia and the greek origin of alexander the great.hmm...why the bad greeks do so..lets see:
1)all the ancient macedonian names are greek and have greek etimology.
2)all the cities names have also greek etimology.
3)thukidides says clearly that macedonians were greek and they spoke a greek dialect.
4)alexander the great himself recognized himself as greek
5)alexander participated in the olympic games where only greeks could participate.
6)its written that the campain were made of all greeks but the lakedemonians.
7)the ancient macedonia's borders were not the present FYROM.
8)as FYROM;s modern language is slavic, historically it cant be the same as ancient macedonian(greek dialect).
9)the teacher of AtG aristoteles was speaking greek as a mother tongue, his name has a greek etymology, and was from macedonia.
10)i can read what is written on vergina's tombs, can you?
11)which was the supposing alphabet of ancient macedonian?i say it was the greek.
and also i read that u are not slavs.of course anyone can refuse to be anything as long as he doesnt insult anyone.and maybe as long as his politicians disagree i quess. so here are some statements:
February 26, 1992: The FYROM's President Kirov Gligorov, at an interview by the Foreign Information Service daily report, Eastern Europe, stated: "We are Slavs, who came to the region in the sixth century. We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians.
January 22, 1999: The FYROM's Ambassador in Washington D.C., Mrs. Ljubica Acevska, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans, she stated: "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great. We are Slavs and we speak a Slavic language. Greece is The FYROM's second largest trading partner and its number one "investor."
February 24, 1999: The FYROM.'s Ambassador to Canada, Gyordan Veselinov, in an interview with the "Ottawa Citizen", he admitted: "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are Slavs and our language is closely related to Bulgarian. There is some confusion about our identity."
December 29, 2001: Even recently, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje, the Foreign Minister of The FYROM Slobodan Casule said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria Solomon Pasi that they “belong to the same Slav people.”
And yet nobody neither internally nor externally has asked “then what’s with the name Macedonia?” The only ones who believe they are descendants of the ancient Macedonians, are the ones who received their high degree of education from the "Titoic School of History" under the auspices of communist Yugoslavia
and lets see what alexanter the great himself said:
Alexander's own words are quoted as: "Men of Athens... Had I not greatly AT HEART the common welfare of GREECE I should not have come to tell you; BUT I AM MYSELF GREEK BY DESCENT, and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery.... If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the GREEK CAUSE, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am ALEXANDER of MACEDON."
[Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45, translated by G.Rawlinson]
"...consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race,..."
[Isokrates, To Philip 127]
In 324BC, after the establishment of his state, Alexander the Great gave an oath to the officers and soldiers of his state. The oath was also addressed to all the races that lived in the territories of his empire, it was given near Babylon (in Opis) and the philosopher Eratosthenes passes it to us. By the reading the oath one can quickly realize how much Greek Alexander felt, and how proud he was of his Greek origin:
"I wish all of you, now that the wars are coming to an end, to live happily, in peace. All mortals from now on will live like one people, united, and peacefully working towards a common prosperity. You should regard the whole world as your country, a country where the best govern, with common laws, and no racial distinctions. I do not separate people, as many narrow minded others do, into Greeks and barbarians. I am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. I only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek is a barbarian. If ever there appear differences among you, then you must not resolve them by taking to arms, you should resolve them in peace. If need be, I will act as your negotiator.
You must not think of God as an authoritarian ruler, but you should consider him as a common father, so that your conduct resembles the uniform behavior of brothers who belong to the same family. For my part, I consider all, whether they be white or black, equal. And I would like you to be not only subject of my common-wealth, but also participants and partners. You should regard the Oath we have taken tonight as a Symbol of Love."
Alexander I - Opis (324 BC)
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| Strelec |
ooo andreas!
andreas apo FMPG (Former Macedonian Province of Greece)
jasuu!:)
paspeta ksestrudromu tinaktri... panimame tiplasu... odikjore stizoimu!:)))
zvare nja se spodgu FYROM!!!
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| Christian |
e kaj razbra makedonski?pa da vidis so ima napisano na forumov[;)][:D]
re malaka |
| the balkan barbarian |
andreas, you clearly state that alexander was greek yea? well then why when alexander took rain from his father he continued to use greeks thracians and illyrians for his armies after his father captured these people and inslaved them after the great battle of Chaeronea in 338 and QUOATE" the MACEDONIAN army destroyed the united GREEK army and put an end to GREEK freedom and the ancient greek history.also the ancient greek historian DIODORUS SILULUS clearly states in his books " that macedonians are a distinct nation seperate from those that share the balkans distinct by thier hight and strong stature fair skin and blue eyes. now i know that most macedonians of these days do not fit that caterogory but with intermixed nationalities that have taken place and passed through this small balkan state this is the enevadable, well that and the ecouragment from the greek government after the great division of macedonian in 1913 used this method interbreeding as a form of ethinic cleansing the nicer kind of way? if you get what i mean.
anyway what is your claim over alexander being greek? the use of language and the written word? well i can say this that in ancient times the macedonian high society used greek along side the thracians,illyrians, romans, carthygians seen as a language spoken by the nobel of men from many nations just like french was widley used in the 19th century often seen used in russian and german courts and you dont see the french claimng that the russians are french.
also dna testing has been done on nationalities in and around that region and the following is fact in accourdance to these resources found on www.historyofmacedonia.org!!!!!
QUOATE-"our results show that the macedonians are related to other meditarraneans and do not show a close relationship with greeks (although you really want it to im sorry) however they do with cretans. this supports the theory that macedonians are one of the ANCIENT peoples existing in the BALKAN peninsula, probably long before the arrival of the Mycaenian Greeks about 2000 b.c.
And to my surpise i found that "the reson why greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other mediterraneans analyzed was thier genetic relationship with the sub-saharan ethnic groups now residing in ethiopia, sudan and west africa.
HOW FREEKY IS THAT!!!!
so i am sorry to dissapoint you andreas. But from redibly reliable resources clearly state and recognise alexander as a man that derives from the ethnic state of macedon who now the are more widley known as macedonian.
One thing andreas you might want to hurry up the greeks and get the olympics ready. IAN thorpe is back to swim the 400 yeeeeea haaaa... |
| Istor |
Dear Iber,
There is nothing Macedonian in Skopje. Skopje was Dardanian capital and veles Peonian one. While Ottoman Empire Skopje was Kossovo's Vilaet capital.
Macedonians named after Greek names alllllllll the cities they built or renamed. Thus they were (always) Greeks or a very vicious people.
Istor
Macedonia, Greece |