Thoughts on Flags, Respect and Identity

Thoughts on Flags, Respect and Identity
DJ_SHEMA	Thoughts on Flags, Respect and Identity Jason Miko The rock musician Frank Zappa was once quoted as saying “You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer.” Fortunately for Macedonia, you do have a beer and an airline. As a matter of fact, you have several beers, all of which I enjoy. And although you don’t have nuclear weapons, at least to my knowledge, you do have a football team. Although I don’t know if old Frank was talking about football as in American football or football as in what we call soccer in America. No matter. Macedonia has a football/soccer team, one of which I have seen play a few times. I was at the friendly between Macedonia and Croatia the other night. It was a good game, as games go, though Macedonia missed some shots it should have had. But I was really impressed to see the number of Macedonian flags throughout the stadium. It showed that you really do have pride in your flag and your country. Frank probably could have added that you do need a flag to be a real country. And although flags can and do change, it is important to be respectful of the flag which has been adopted by the country’s elected officials. Speaking of respect, I did notice, however, that during the Croatian national anthem, there was a lot of hooting, and shouting and whistling. This was unfortunate and frankly, unsportsmanlike. If you want to be respected, you must show some respect. If you show some respect, the rest of the world will notice and you in turn will be appreciated for it. And I did note that when the Croatian national anthem was played, their players faced their flag at the far end of the stadium and placed their right hands over their hearts. They showed respect to their flag. I know this is something President Trajkovski did and in fact, citizens in many countries do the same. This shows respect for one’s flag. Just a thought. Over the past few weeks, I’ve noticed more and more Macedonian flags being waved. And I’ve noticed quite a few European Union flags as well. This is a good thing. Of course it could just be the election fever. But it might just be genuine pride in the flag and the country. Flags, the beer, airline, football team and a nuclear weapon or two (if you’re lucky enough to have them), help to create an identity. And in this case of course, you’re in the process of creating a Macedonian identity as Macedonian citizens. Identity, of course, is created over time and just as there were no American citizens in 1750, today’s citizen of Macedonia is still learning what it means to be a “Macedonian.” And of course much more goes into identity than just the aforementioned. You need a culture (in your case, several cultures blending together), a language, or languages, history (yes, you have lots of that too), geographical boundaries (and yes, they have been sanctified, recognized and glorified by the international community) and a name. Of course the name is a bit problematic but as I have said over and over again, the most important thing the international community could do for Macedonia would be to recognize it by its constitutional name, the Republic of Macedonia. This would go a long way in helping you to solidify your identity as a state. And it costs the international community virtually nothing. But of course, and again as I have said, you’re going to have to fight for this. Not literally of course, but in the court of politics and public opinion. And I encourage all citizens of the Republic of Macedonia to identify themselves as Macedonian citizens. When asked “Where are you from?” on the streets of Tallinn, Tashkent, Tirana or Tucson, it is my hope that you would say (proudly, I might add), “I am a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia.” Don’t you FYROM me! I also encourage all citizens of Macedonia to fly the flag of the country at their places of business, in government institutions, in schools, at homes, even in churches, as some countries do in theirs (though I must confess I don’t know if it is proper to fly the flag of a country in mosques or synagogues – somebody can inform me on that count). The international community can also help you on this one. I know that all international representative offices here fly the flag of the Republic of Macedonia at their events (along with their home state as well), but we all need to encourage Macedonian Albanians, and others, to embrace this flag as well. It is their flag too and even if it changes in the future, it is the flag of the country here and now. I really look forward to the day – soon I hope – when Ali Ahmeti stands up with the Macedonian flag behind him and says “I’m proud to be a Macedonian citizen.” If he did this, he would reap rewards and respect. And he should be encouraged to do so. But let’s keep discussing these issues. Let’s talk about what it means to be a Macedonian citizen, let’s wave the Macedonian flag, let’s attend Macedonian football matches and let’s fly the Macedonian national carrier. And since my Government reads these articles, I can’t encourage you to build a nuclear bomb or two but you get the idea. It will be my privilege to do all of this with you but for right now, I’m going to have a cold Skopsko. May 4, 2004
Ceki	Ok, i see they deleted your posts, so i will only answer what i remember. You wanted proofs, that Samuil and his Macedonian kingdom was not bulgarian. Ok answer me then this, when Samuil become tzar, what direction he first went to add to his kingdom. I will answer for you, SOUTH, towards ( as is today known) AEGEAN MACEDONIA, and not east towards bulgarians. And this my misinformed bulgarian jerk is a proof that Samuil Macedonian kingdom is not of bulgarian origin but of small slavic parts that were in Macedonia in those times. I agree that his kingdom was tought to be bulgarian in those times. But now answer me what is bulgarian, i mean there was just ONE bulgarian tribe that took over slavs that lived in territory of todays bulgaria. Could it be that term "bulgarian" meant something like vandal, after all term vandal came from a tribe Vandals, that existed. So could it be bulgar -------> vulgar. I mean B and V are easily replaced with eachother, Byzantinian in english language and Vizantinci in Macedonian language. So could this be a reason why his kingdom was named bulgarian, as vulgarian and barbaric? Just an option that could be correct. About the Lion: [img]http://img57.photobucket.com/albums/v173/MasterMan/lion.jpg[/img] "In the course of the Middle Ages and in later periods the name of Macedonia can be found both in heraldry and itinerary literature. Macedonia is mentioned for the first time in the 1595 Korenich-Neorich rolls of arms, where the coat of arms of Macedonia is included among those of eleven other countries. As noted in detail by Aleksandar Matkovski, under the coat of arms is written "Macedonia", while above the arms in Cyrillic script is "Cimeri makedonske zemle" (the Coat of Arms of the Macedonian country). In the Korenich-Neorich rolls of arms, Macedonian arms are presented along with those of Croatia, Dalmatia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, the Duchagyni, and Kastrioti; in the 152 coats of arms depicted, the Macedonian coat of arms with the inscription "Macedonia" is included twice. The same rolls of arms includes the arms of King Dushan or of his son Urosh. This is a complex coat of arms, presenting these kings as symbols of the unity of the South Slavs and including the arms of nine Balkan regions: Macedonia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, the coastal countries, Slavonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Rascia. Note that Macedonia is presented as a separate region." www.historyofmacedonia.com And do check again those eagles i already said.
marko_polog	The flag that I use and will continue to use is the original Macedonian flag adopted in the early 90's, not a flag that shown nothing of my ancestry and is a sign of defeat. We still have the old Communist Coat of Arms, which is embarrasing enough, We have a coat of arms(first appeared in 1595) that is older then fascism, communism and even older then socialism, 300 years before VMRO first came to the scene, The Macedonian Lion. A Nation and Politicians with no pride of who and what they are.
graf	that is correct, we are not japanese.
Ceki	Now please explain to me what has a lion to do with bulgarians, it is just another thing stolen from ancient Macedonians. Greeks have stolen the Sun, and you the Lion. And i have also seen Lions as symbols of many other coutrys, so it is not just bulgarian OWNERSHIP. OMG.
Thief	Се‘ додека некои макеоднски имигранти коишто пишаа погоре, а и некој македонски политички партии, не сфатат дека треба да се почитува грбот и знамето кое е официјално донесено и изгласано од институциите на државата, се‘ дотогаш нема навистина да се зајакне македонското национално чувство. И една обична црна точка да стават и да речат: „Од утре ОВА е знамето на Македонија“, сите треба да го почитуваме тоа! Мора да се почитуваат симболите на државата... не‘ иритира тоа што Албанците не ги почитуваат тие симболи, а јас знам уште повеќе Македонци, кои, за жал, нивното знаме, државното знаме, го нарекуваат „вентилатор“ и одбиваат да го виорат. Така се уништува една нација и чувство за припадност кон неа: не со промена на знамето, ами со негово непочитување!
n/a	If I am not mistaken I remember reading something about the coat of arms posted by a bulgarian. Just because they said something that makes us feel iferior does not give anybody the write to disrigard their opinions and delete them. [?][?] Please allow all ASSUMED facts to remain on the forum otherwise no sensible conclusions can be achieved.[}:)][:(!][:(][xx(][V] Kako mozi me da ce borime za Makedonia koga ne octavate da uchime od cekoj opinion.[?][?] Makedonia zivei.[:)] Dictatori ce mocat vo pelenite.[:D]
n/a	Bulgarians are Macedonian!!! Macedonians are Bulgarians!!! We are brothers/cousins (Macedonian, Bulgarian, serbian, Russian etc.) Just like Australians, Americans and English. We are all related to a perticular group of tribes living in the northern balkans even before the Macedonian state existed. The distinctions between us are minimal especcially for a historically rich area such as the balkans with all of it's variouse empires. Wich only goes to show the magnitude of our civilization [:)]and that we have been conned by others into seperation for fear of world dominance. Why is Russia so big? Because we (so called slavs) did not attack them. Can you deny the continuation of a dominant culture throught Eastern Europe existing even before Macedonia and throught history. Ancient Macedonia is a part of this culture. As we can see the rest of the world has succeded in instiling hate between us in order to restrain our advances. I could be wrong but befor anybody gives me a multitude of facts that prove me wrong consider this. "The world needs war" Don't believe the historians for you can not date anything and make your soul believe the result unless you are a professor in about 20 different fields (impossible).[:(] [8]And every body thinks Christ died 2000 years ago Ha.
Thief	Да дополнам: Мико упте еднаш ја пишва вистината и ме одушевува со едноставноста на неговите колумни... упте еднаш ЗА ЖАЛ, ама некои Американци се поголеми Македонци од некои наши таканаречени „патриоти“...
n/a	Aramia. Ubavo tie ova shto go kaza. Zhal mi e da ti kazam deka eden drugar mi vele ne mi e gayle za mojata makedoncka kultura, Makedoncite ce zaeban narod. Koga go prashav zoshto mi odgovori 'Deka ne nie priznata zemyata'. Ako mozi covek tolku lesno da ce izlazi ci mislam kolko ima vakvi Makedonci vo svetot koj ne ci ya poshtova culturata zaradi nekoe politichka odluka.
Christian	quote: Bulgarians are Macedonian!!! Macedonians are Bulgarians!!! this is the dummest statement ever. Оди џитни се од некој мост.
Ceki	Dont talk stupidness now Antichki. quote: You might believe that it's "stolen" from you...Who cares... Well we care, and please explain me what have bulgarians to do with lions. Because i can tell you that there are found some statues of Lions that are from ancient times in Macedonia. And what are Lions bulgarian pets, that nobody else should use hem, tell this to English and some other than, if you have courage. And while we are talking about same symbols, have you seen eagle, albanian, serbian, austrian, german, ... and some of them look identical. quote: Yes, it's a quote from a book by the bulgarian writer Dimitar Talev [born in Prilep];Goce has never said these words...the quote, however, is taken out of context 'coz Talev is a great Bulgarian Patriot... Here is something about Talev: http://www.start.com.mk/br211/kultura2.htm You should read some of his books...they are really good..and they are all about Macedonia... Out of context? Explain. So he is of Macedonian origin and naturalized bulgarian. To pisit na stranata sto ja dade: "Македонија и родниот Прилеп ги посетил во неколку наврати за време на Втората светска војна, пропагирајќи ја идејата за обединета Македонија." Da be samo najgolemite bugarski patrioti go kazuvaat toa. quote: Coat of arms of Misia, Thracia, Macedonia and Dardania from "Stematography" of Pavle Riter Vitezovic - 1701. These are the coats of the 4 bulgarian provinces united by a single coat of arms -the Bulgarian; the same with the macedonian but with interchanged color b/n the lion and the background. What are you talking about. These provinces were never provinces of bulgaria, but of Ottoman empire in this time 1701. Really those teritory were once ocupied by bulgarians, not as provinces but as teritory. And this teritory was also occupied by Macedonian tzar Samuil. Now please stop bulshiting! And why can you bulgarians think that you are from Thracian origin. And you share with them almost nothing. We Macedonians, have from ancient Macedonians: name, symbols, customs, and many other things and you are saying we have nothing to do with them. No need to delete his posts, let other see what kind of bullshit he is writing.
Christian	bugar samo se povtoruvas kako papagal, i mnogu smesen si. Otvori si gi ocite i gledaj kako sto to treba, a ne kako nekoj so te naucil samo ko papagal da povtoruvas. PS.God loves you[:D]
Ceki	Ne brisete gi bre, neka vidit narodov kakvi budali se tie. I me interesira sto mislese so toj stav "out of context".
Antichki3	I am sorry. Bulgaria was part of Macedonia. I apologize.
Ceki	Dimitar Talev: I admit i havent heard about him until now, but you said that he was describing Macedonian way of life and that it is similar to bulgarian. God bless your mind then, HELLO, wake up, if we would go back in 1900 we would see that 400 years of turkish imperialism have united all christian ways of life and mixed turkish customs with them into way of life, that we call BALKAN way of life, from Bosnia to Greece we can see similarities. And closer that are countrys more similar are their lives.
Christian	quote: Bulgaria was part of Macedonia. rekov da ne povtoruvas kako papagal, a ti ja utne i na povtoruvanjeto.[;)] anticki do kolku ke odis,gledam do anticki4 si stasal[:D],tvrdokoren budala si. PS.God still loves you[:D]
Ceki	Neka se vratit kako antichki9999 ako sakat, mene mi e gajle, mozam se da mu odgovoram sto ke sakat da znajt. If i get a chance to see your posts antichkiX i will answer them according to what i know, because i see you was misinformed with some facts.
n/a	this is the dummest statement ever. Оди џитни се од некој мост. Christian. Ne ti velam deka cme ist narod i luge, ama slicni cme isto kako englesi i americanci iraqi i turkish. Kulturata shto ya imama e clichna. Taa cultura e podadena od roditel do dete a ne od politika. kakva pichka ke odberish. bugarcka eli turcka, crbincka eli engleska, russincka eli amerikancka. Nemozish da kazesh deka instinktivno ti idi da pomozish amerikanec od oshto russin. Zoshto e taka? Deka cme brayka. Division of a culture is an old form of warfare. We act as a buffer zone for the so called slavic culture (wich we are a poart of)were we have gone through many years of cegregation and assimilation without loseing our culture and language. Ukrainians are geneticly closest to the ancient Macedonians. They are surrounded by people of simmilar culture and lineage and have not mixed with others due to this. Da ne postoy Alexander Makedoncki ke befme shiptari od persia isto kako Albancite. Alexander attacked the people who where not kin ie: persians in order do make shure that his people (most of eastern europe) could florish and preserve there lineages. Bulgarians and Macedonians are definatley not the same but we are kin. We are the same as much as Chinese and Japanese.
Christian	pa nemoj ondak da pisues deka sme isti. ok,sea te razbrav so sakas da kazes[:D]
DJ_SHEMA	i peder kje stanev ako trebashe ama bugarka ne bi zemal za zena. Shto kje mi e ciganka ziti se.
n/a	Yac nemam sretnato ni edna Bugarka da znam kakvi ce. Amo imam slushnato deka ce cite co bradi.
Christian	aceto ne se maci da dokazuvas lagi. Isto ko ja pisuvam ovde na japonski i da cekam za odgovor. Get it!!?? zosto bi imalo smisla,kolku mozok moze eden papagal da ima[;)] PS.God loves you[:D]
Tommy	FACT: We Bulgarians are all gay. We love to screw our fathers and uncles. We love to keep it in the family. Thank you
Christian	more uporen tip, samo nickovi menja[:D] PS.God loves you to as well Tommy[:D]
AaaAa	quote: Originally posted by Thief Се‘ додека некои макеоднски имигранти коишто пишаа погоре, а и некој македонски политички партии, не сфатат дека треба да се почитува грбот и знамето кое е официјално донесено и изгласано од институциите на државата, се‘ дотогаш нема навистина да се зајакне македонското национално чувство. И една обична црна точка да стават и да речат: „Од утре ОВА е знамето на Македонија“, сите треба да го почитуваме тоа! Мора да се почитуваат симболите на државата... не‘ иритира тоа што Албанците не ги почитуваат тие симболи, а јас знам уште повеќе Македонци, кои, за жал, нивното знаме, државното знаме, го нарекуваат „вентилатор“ и одбиваат да го виорат. Така се уништува една нација и чувство за припадност кон неа: не со промена на знамето, ами со негово непочитување! Ako ne primeti Jason Miko zboruva za Makedoncite, drzavjani na Makedonija. Ovie imigrantite kako ti gi narekuvash, tocno e deka se imigranti, ama pola od niv ako ne i povekje se imaat otkazano od nasevo drzavjanstvo, sledstveno i od Makedonija. So toa shto ponavljaat ko masini ona shto baba im neshto im spomnala za znameto od kutlesh ili komunistite, ne gi prai makedonci sigurno, a so toa sto se otkazuvaat od znameto i drzavnite ni simboli uste povekje dokazuvaat deka ne se Makedonci. Od niv kar nema, so pobrgu zaboravat od kade e pradedo im toa poarno.
Ceki	quote: As I said these coats of arms are relatively new 14-15 century...You think Bulgarians did not know what a lion is?Please!The lion and some other animal are very commonly used as part of the coats of arms you are right, but as I said the 2 coats of arms are identical - the posture of the lion, the back ground, the crown on it.No 2 nations have the same or extremely close coats of arms esp. neighboring nations... OMG THEY HAVE STOLEN BULGARIAN PRIDE, STOP THOSE THIEVES!!!!!! [img]http://img57.photobucket.com/albums/v173/MasterMan/LION.jpg[/img] [img]http://img57.photobucket.com/albums/v173/MasterMan/LION3.jpg[/img] quote: I posted that coz many say LOOK it says Macedonia...and not Bulgaria, so they are diff right?NO! It shows that the territories had also coats of arms and that a coat of arms does not mean that on any territory with diff coats live diff ppl. quote: What do you think Macedonia was in 1614... A r e y o u s t u p i d? It was a province JUST LIKE bulgaria. But it was not BULGARIAN PROVINCE, as you said, but Turkish province. I mean Dardania, Macedonia, Thracia and Misia were bulgarian provinces in 1701?!?!, only god can help you now. And stating that Macedonia is bulgarian province is just a sign of yours ambitions to get our todays teritory and probably Solun aswel. quote: said the he speaks of Bulgarian Macedonian...NO Macedonian... What is your point, greek also speak of greek Macedonians, and so what. I think the problem with you MFs is that many of you want our land, names, ... so at the end you kill eachother, and then we will come out as winners, and believe me, we will show as much mercy as you did to us. quote: Where should I start first.Let me start with the thing that if you got more then C in History than your teacher is a moron.So, what does the fact that he first ADDED Aegean Macedonia [btw it was not even called like that then] proof?...He saw the opportunity to add land to his kingdom and did it...he did not say..."Well, where should I start from...Ah, yeah let's go south"...that's ridiculous...Ask whichever militant or better historian about how counties go into war for territory...They don't say "well, I like that peace of land let's have it"...NO!They wait for the opportunity...He saw the opportunity to annex that land and did it...Don't forget that he got the whole Byzantine Empire against him, he could not simply rendomly choose his next battle field.... No no, IF his ambition was to RECOVER bulgarian kingdom as you claim, then he would go EAST, and going east would also be smarter move and EASIER, because south Macedonia and Solun were in the middle of Byzantian empire. So dont talk strategies, when you dont know them. quote: By the end of the 9th century the Bulgars had probably ceased to exist as a separate ethnic and linguistic group. I see, SO WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM THEN. You ceased to exist, we didnt, now give us a break. quote: Wasn't it a country?!Now it became a region;well, better late than never...CORRECT a region...like Thrace, Misia etc.... A country, a region, a province, THIS IS FUCKING SAME SHIT, even for english people, not to mention non-english people. Country-countryside!!! And this is correct and not your claims of bulgarian Macedonia. About those inscriptions, who can claim that Samoil was Slav, i read also that he and his brothers were Armenians. quote: Right now Macedonian Historians are ready to sell their souls just for a single HARD proof, not interpretations like yours, that Samuil was A Macedonian Tzar... You wish. quote: First at the time of Samuil it was written Blugar NOT Bulgar...later the new form came into being....sorry to disapoint you...obviously your little "theory" did not survive for more than 5 min.But you got it right, this is exactly the way you think...Maybe this, maybe that...that's not history but interpretation, not to call it fantasy!!! Oh, what a difference, bLUgar and bULgar. Yes my "little" theory is totaly colapsed now. quote: However, by the time of Samiul the proto-Bulgars on the balkans had been completely assimilated into the slavs and all the other peoples of the balkans...thus becaming an homogenious ppl by the name Bulgarians... HAHAHAHAHAHA, and so what, we also claim that Slavs mixed with Macedonians, "thus becaming an homogenious ppl by the name" Macedonians ... quote: First there is not one Bulgar tribe that settled on the balkans there are 2 . [:0] YOU MEAN 2 tribes, well this is in my opinion about 2000000 bulgarians then, am i correct? Just get a life and stop it, the era of nationalism in last 2 centurys has blinded people, and many balkan nations claim to be PURE and that all their neighbours are of their origin. I just say time will show. Abe admini naprajte sega nesto, jas tuka mu odgovaram, a toj uste stari postovi pisit. Kako da ne gi gleda odgovorive moi. Nekoj IP ban mozda? Mislam deka ovo dete ne ma nisto drugo vo zivotot da prajt. Mislam deka go bijat negovite "drugari" na skolo zasto e cigan, i sega sakat i nas da ne prajt cigani.
dejan	It was easy for Bulgaria to adapt to our culture and language, but then it becomes more difficult to change our history and then tell us who we are when it was you who stole our culture. Face it, you stole our culture, now you are stealing our history. Something you and the Greeks have in common. You know what else is sad, the fact that i had no idea that Bulgarian people had this type of outlook towards us Macedonians. I only found out last year, before that, i had thought of Bulgaria as another country, next to Macedonia. Even before i had found out about these falsifications, i had met only a few Bulgarian people, and i had no other thought in my head than, they must be nice people seeing how they are a neighbour of my country. Like 2 years ago, i had a substitute teacher for a lesson, and she recognised my name and thought i was Russian, and she spoke in Russian (the lady knew several languages, and she was Bulgarian) I understood something but replied in Macedonian that i was from Macedonia. And she was nice to me and we had a conversation for some time, and she didn't even mention anything about what Bulgarians think of Macedonians. But now my thoughts and in the future will be, oh...will they criticise me because of my nationality, will they tell me something false will they insult me? Pathetic what people like you momko babble on about, if you don't know the truth then don't say anything.
Ceki	Hey tatar i have Tatarstan flag here just for you: [img]http://www.vexilla-mundi.com/tatarstan_flag.gif[/img] You must admit that they have choosen nice colours. Hmm they remind me of one flag. What is this? [img]http://www.barry.jordan2.btinternet.co.uk/images/albflg.jpg[/img] Albanian eagle, and what is this? [img]http://img57.photobucket.com/albums/v173/MasterMan/untitled.jpg[/img] Russian eagle. Thanks god you told me that neither one country has identical symbols, because i could almost swear that albanian looks like simplified russian. I have one more eagle for you: [img]http://www.suziclarke.co.uk/images/thumbs/eagle.jpg[/img] PS, i think they are all against you, because according to my informations, russia and albania changed their eagles right now exclusivly just for me. But dont spread this rumour yet around. What are you trying to say that those lions and eagles i just showed you are not almost identical. And about the girl, she looks more like a slavic girl( russian, ukrainian) then tatar.