Two Reports on Macedonians in Bulgaria

Two Reports on Macedonians in Bulgaria
DJ_SHEMA	Radio France Internationale Presented Two Reports About the Macedonians in Bulgaria Macedonian Human Rights Movement of Canada Press Release May 8, 2004 http://www.mhrmc.ca/press/04/radiofrance.html Radio France International, on the French language programming “Other Europe” presented two revealing radio programs about the Macedonians in Bulgaria. The reports presented the current situation of the Macedonians living in Bulgaria through interviews with human rights activists such as Ivan Kalchev, Georgi Radulov, Ivan Dragash, Kostadin Georgiev and Stefan Vlahov. The reporter Maria Bejanovska commented on all the different types of personal and professional pressures exerted on Macedonians in Bulgaria. To that Kostadin Georgiev had the following observation: “Zhivkov’s communist regime was very nationalistic. Everyone that opposed the official policies was dealt with brutally.. Today it is different, whoever declares themself as a Macedonian will have different types of problems. For example, if that person wants to have a university or political career, they will have a very small chance for success.” To the question from reporter Bejanovska, “Then, how is it possible with these ideas (about the non-recognition of Macedonians) for the Bulgarians to think that they are ready to join the European Union?”, Vlahov, professor at Sofia University and president of the Association of Free Writers of Bulgaria answered that “… (the) Bulgarians recognize the rights of minorities, but only under pressure, which shows a lack of maturity. I am sure that one day they will be forced to recognize the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria.” However, professor Kalchev expressed his concerns about the possibility of change vis-à-vis the Macedonians as long as Bulgaria “dreams” about “Greater Bulgaria” through its educational materials in the school system where the young are taught that “Bulgaria only borders with herself”. Radulov, professor at Sofia University and ethnic Macedonian human rights activist is a pessimist regarding Bulgaria’s future as an EU member: “Observing how the activities are going on in Greece, which is an EU member, when the Macedonian minority is in question, almost all things remained the same as before. I even believe that when Bulgaria becomes an EU member things will deteriorate. That is why the Bulgarian authorities do all they can so that Europeans do not have a good understanding of the situation.” The linguist Dragash said: “We have all the rights except the right to be Macedonians. That is our problem.” The programs can be heard on the following web site: www.rfi.fr/fichiers/Magazines/emissions/europe_international/dossier_autre_europe/autre_europe_archives_tv.asp. The first report aired on April 3rd, 2004 and can be heard at La Bulgarie et les droits des minorités -1er volet while the second report aired on April 10th, 2004 and can be heard at Droits des minorités: la face cachée de la Bulgarie -2e volet. The MHRMC commends Radio France Internationale for raising the topic of the Macedonians in Bulgaria and particularly reporter Maria Bejanovska for a concise and professional presentation. For more information on the Macedonians in Bulgaria please visit www.mhrmc.ca and www.omoilindenpirin.org.
Christian	quote: Christian=anything but a christian Lord Jesus has the final saying[;)],Gospod znae kakov sum odvnatre i jas nema sto da krijam od nego.Ama za tebe ne znam so da kazam osven Gospod da te blagoslovi i da ti gi otvori ocite.
Joe	What can I say? First, what's obvious is the bias of the reporter - Bejanovska - the -OVSKA is more than evidential. quote: The reports presented the current situation of the Macedonians living in Bulgaria through interviews with human rights activists such as Ivan Kalchev, Georgi Radulov, Ivan Dragash, Kostadin Georgiev and Stefan Vlahov. Why not with the minority itself? quote: The reporter Maria Bejanovska commented on all the different types of personal and professional pressures exerted on Macedonians in Bulgaria. To that Kostadin Georgiev had the following observation: “Zhivkov’s communist regime was very nationalistic. Everyone that opposed the official policies was dealt with brutally.. Today it is different, whoever declares themself as a Macedonian will have different types of problems. For example, if that person wants to have a university or political career, they will have a very small chance for success.” Well, this is the most idiotic part of the "report".First the Zhivkov's regim was to some extend nationalistic that's true...but it was pointed towards the Turkish minority...no word for a macedonian one... quote: Today it is different, whoever declares themself as a Macedonian will have different types of problems. For example, if that person wants to have a university or political career, they will have a very small chance for success. Yeah right!How many Macedonians study in Bulgarian Universities in Sofia, in Blagoevgrad and so one...?Yes...they come from RMacedonia but I think it shows that there is no such thing as discrimination at Universities in Bulgaria..."You are a good studen?We want you..." no one cares about your identity... However, what is more important is the fact that all these ppl the reporter names are pofessors or placed at high posts in the country - quote: Ivan Kalchev, Georgi Radulov, Ivan Dragash, Kostadin Georgiev and Stefan Vlahov. How did they get their university diplomas if Bulgaria places double standards?I leave you pondering on this one! What is more important is te fact that Bulgaria is fule of Universities...MOST of them are independent and private ones where you have got to pay...free higher education is gone for years!Schools care if you got money and are a good student...this is so absurd a claim...really... quote: To the question from reporter Bejanovska, “Then, how is it possible with these ideas (about the non-recognition of Macedonians) for the Bulgarians to think that they are ready to join the European Union?”, Vlahov, professor at Sofia University and president of the Association of Free Writers of Bulgaria answered that “…” Wow slow down girl:)!Is this a question?It sounds like "What Bulgaria has that Macedonia doesn't?"As for the "the Bulgarians to think "...hmmm...it's not a thought it's a fact; Bulgaria will become an EU member in 2007...Probably she's been living for to long in France and has not visited Macedonia for years...she better go and see what Bulgaria has that Macedonia lacks...a friendly advice... quote: Radulov, professor at Sofia University and ethnic Macedonian human rights activist is a pessimist regarding Bulgaria’s future as an EU member: “Observing how the activities are going on in Greece, which is an EU member, when the Macedonian minority is in question, almost all things remained the same as before. I even believe that when Bulgaria becomes an EU member things will deteriorate. That is why the Bulgarian authorities do all they can so that Europeans do not have a good understanding of the situation.” First, again a professor and at Sofia University(regardet as the best uni in Bulgaria)...I think that's like to many "exceptions" for the macedonian minority that could not study in unis... Why don't help the EU have a good undertanding of the situation pal?What?You have no communicational problems I guess;send letters, make phone calls....speak with ppl about the "problem"... toa e toa
DJ_SHEMA	Joe Why don't you supply facts on your agruments?
Joe	quote: Joe Why don't you supply facts on your agruments? What facts or arguments do you wanna me to supply?It's an editorial, the report itself does not supply any facts either;it's just an interview with professors that shouldn't have become professors if their words that the so called educational discrimination against macedonian minority existed...I pointed some obvious weak points of the editorial that's more than enought to make it incredible... What facts do you want?Tell me and I'll try to supply them... To start with according to the 2001 census in Bulgaria live 5701 ppl that have declared themselves Macedonians... [url]http://www.nsi.bg/Census/Ethnos.htm[/url] P.S. How many Macedonians do you ppl think live in Bulgaria? P.P.S.This forum BTW is not the place to supply to much proofs coz I have noticed that some posts "mysteriously" disappear...[;)]
DJ_SHEMA	propaganda post full of lies do disappear just like many macedonians disappeared in Pirin Macedonia. There are over 50,000 macedonians in Pirin Macedonia, just that your government decided to trim down few zeros. They are zero's anyway so nothing chnages right? Do you know any Macedonian that born and raised in BG?
Joe	DJ_SHEMA Why don't you supply facts on your agruments? How do you know there are OVER 50 000 macedonians in Bulgaria?Where do they live...why don't they show up and protest?The only macedonians I have seen are the so called OMOs or as the ppl in Blagoevgrad like to call them hOMOs - no offence - but you have got to see these ppl to realize what are they...they are really funny...most of them look like mendicant... They usually gether like 20 ppl on their "nastani" - usually the local journalists are more than the OMOs themselves - On very importand occasions ,however, they somehow manage to gether like 200-300 ppl... Dj Shema, you live in the US, have you been to Pirin?Why don't you come and ask the ppl what are they...I always give this advice to ppl that start telling me about the macedonian minority in Bulgaria...As a matter of fact the ppl in Pirin are one of the most nationalistic ppl in Bulgaria...they are very sensitive over the subject...so you will only get them mad if you start telling them they are not Bulgarians...However,I know that there are A LOT of ppl from the republic that constatly circulate tru Pirin - some study at the American University in Blagoevgrad, others at other Unies or are just passing the border to buy some cheap goods...I have heard that prices in Bulgaria are twice as low as in your country...
Christian	Joe= same crap different name!
Joe	Christian=anything but a christian!
DJ_SHEMA	Yes, I have been in Pirin and dined with those Macedonians than your nation has denied the right to study and speak in their native language. I have provided them with things to give away for their radio programs. Have you been there before?
Joe	Who said there are no ppl in Pirin that feel Macedonian?I even see in the census that there are 20 ppl with Macedonian identity in my town which is 300 miles east of Pirin. I mean go on the streets and ask the ppl,yeah it's crazy but..., and not dining with someone from OMO?What you dined with the whole minority?!?I can go to Sofia and dine with someone from Niger and he could tell me that he has no rights.How did you find these "poor" Macedonians in Pirin?You probably went directly to OMO's "office" /do they have one I don't know/. The stupidity that they do not have the right to study is bullsh!t!!!Bulgaria is a democratic state, no matter what you think...what's more...just call a journalist working at a TV station and they will immediately report your story,media is hungry for suchlike stories... As for the right to speak in thier own language?Hmmm...the older ppl in Pirin do speak in a similar way(not like you; it does not have so many serbian words and funny english and french words like kidnapiram,hendikapiran,fer etc;why do you use these words anyway?), tho in Bulgaria it's a dialect...it's not recognized as a language...
Ceki	Lets clear things up, bulgarian nation is mix of "Slavs", bulgarians and many others. And, lets say that "Slavs" are around 60%. I can say to you that, if conditions were different, all those people would claim theirselves as Macedonians or maybe even as serbians. Just listen to your language, very "bulgaric" isnt it. In fact it is Macedonian one. Now dont even start saying "HOW, there are more bulgarians then Macedonians!". So? Have you seen how many english are there and stil their language is world language. And Macedonians in medieval times were culturaly superior to you, times when nations were slowly forming their identities. And that is why i think that when we speak of "bulgarian language", we can just simply refer to it as East Macedonian dialect( or Thracian).
DJ_SHEMA	Now, what is wrong with OMO? What about Narodna Volja?
Christian	quote: Bulgaria is a democratic state man you are in the clouds,you need to get back on land.
Joe	Ceki...I don't even what to comment on your post;if you believe in that it is your problem...I don't wanna go into such moronish conversation... DJ_SHEMA, there is nothing wrong about OMO...it's just that they are overexposed as being very numerous and that they serve as some kind of representatives of the maks in BG...everybody has the right to gether in groups, parties etc...(it's true also that in the local elections in Blagoevgrad last year where they took part ,I think, they collected less than 1% of the votes...something like 0.4% I think...). As for Narodna Volja...I had not heard of it!Well all I could find in the net was at http://www.gate.net/~mango/Narodna_Volja.html However, It tells nothing about the paper...The only reason why this paper could have been banned was probaby cos it was illegal...proclaiming separationism or something..I don't know... Adout the stuff this guy tells in the story posted at the site...it's so stupid that it does not need to be commented...They were going to kill him:) he wishes...very important ppl get assassinate from time to time every where in the world but a pity publisher?Please, if they wanted to close his mouth there are many less drastic and more effective ways...don't you think?So he is hallucinating... Christian, ok I live in the clouds...be happy now...who cares what you think?
Ceki	quote: Ceki...I don't even what to comment on your post;if you believe in that it is your problem...I don't wanna go into such moronish conversation... Well explain to me what is "moronish" in that post. Claiming that "bulgarians" and Macedonians are one nation( bulgarians!!!) isnt moronish in your opinion[?] Serbians and Croatians have the same language, now go and tell them they are one nation, i bet you dont dare it. Or is this also "moronish"[?]
Joe	Ceki this "forum" is not the place to comment too in-depth on any post...know why?Coz you are always banned and your posts deleted once you enter forbidden territories... Just a few words... There was no nation or state by the name Macedonian in the Middle ages...Serbia comes out in existence few centuries after Bulgaria...This should tell you what the conditions WERE...as for could...Hmmm most historians agree that if the Bulgars had not created a State with it's main aim to unite all the Slavs of the "Bulgarian Group" the Slavs would have been assimilated in the Byzantine Population so we all would call most likely greeks...BUT a change in a single event in the past brings numerous other events to change so you never know...but that's science fiction, we are talking about what WAS and not what COULD have been...
Ceki	quote: There was no nation or state by the name Macedonian in the Middle ages... I am only going to say to you, so what, if we go back 20 years or 100, we will see that there was also neither Macedonian nation, neither state. People only saw Yugoslavians 20 years ago, or serbians, bugarians and greeks 100 years ago. It is not important how other see who you are, but how you feel who you are. Now tell me in whos interest is existence of Macedonian nation, who do you think support us and pays "propaganda" and changes history??? IN NOONES interest, but there are people that would like to see that we would be wiped off the earth. And this is for me the biggest proof that we are of distinct origin. You bugarians want our land, greeks also, serbians aswel, not to mention albanians. Now who will profit with our existence, NOONE, except us MACEDONIANS!!! quote: Hmmm most historians agree that if the Bulgars had not created a State with it's main aim to unite all the Slavs of the "Bulgarian Group" the Slavs would have been assimilated in the Byzantine Population so we all would call most likely greeks... Slavs of "bulgarian group"[?], you probably mean "southern" slavs, like serbians and croatians and Macedonians. They already were assimilated into byzantine state, but not as greeks.
Joe	Ok I see it goes too in-depth so baning is close but ok...I'll try to be gentle:) The so called Bulgarian Group of slavs is not the same as the Southern slavs...The Bulgarian group are the Eastern Southern Slavs...no serbs ,no croats and so on...The west south slavs and the east south slavs were pretty much Identical BUT had also many differences in traditions, Byzantine influence and so on.We needless to say were under bigger Byzantine influece...Later even the langueges would evolve into 2 major forms - with and without cases...One such differene b/n the 2 groups of slavs on the Balkans is the fact that one of the group buried their deads and the other burnt them...but there are some other diff-s thats why historians and ethnographs put a border b/n them.The # 1 aim in the foreign policy of the Bulgarian State was the unification of the the slavs of the Eastern South Slavs, thats why they call it Bulgarian Group...which ment fight with Byzantine of course...and so one and so on. On your first point.I don't tell you how to feel! Be macedonian if you want to, no problem...we are talking history here...the macedonian nation exists at this point... "Now tell me in whos interest is existence of Macedonian nation..." In your own interest ,of course, no one else really has any serious interest NOW...However, we sould look for the interest of the macedonian nation in the PAST... Stojan Novakovich is believed to be one of the creators of the Makedonism: Ñò. Íîâàêîâè÷ çà ðàáîòàòà íà ñðúáñêàòà ïðîïàãàíäà â áîðáàòà ñðåùó Åêçàðõèÿòà: Òúé êàòî áúëãàðñêàòà èäåÿ, êàêòî å èçâåñòíî íà âñè÷êè, å ïóñíàëà äúëáîêè êîðåíè â Ìàêåäîíèÿ, àç ìèñëÿ, ÷å å êàæè ðå÷è íåâúçìîæéî äà áúäå ðàçêîëåáàíà ñúâñåì, èçíàñÿéêè ñðåùó é ñàìî ñðúáñêàòà èäåÿ. Òàçè èäåÿ, ñòðàõóâàì ñå, íå áè áèëà â ñúñòîÿíèå êàòî ÷èñòà è ãîëà ïðîòèâîïîëîæíîñò äà èçòëàñêà áúëãàðñêàòà èäåÿ è ïî òàçè ïðè÷èíà íà ñðúáñêàòà èäåÿ îò ïîìîù ùå é áúäå íÿêàêúâ ñúþçíèê, êîéòî áè áèë òâúðäî ñðåùó áúëãàðèçìà è êîéòî áè ñúäúðæàë â ñåáå ñè åëåìåíòè, êîèòî ìîãàò äà ïðèâëåêàò êúì íåãî íàðîäà è íàðîäíèòå ÷óâñòâà, îòöåïâàéêè ãî îò áúëãàðèçìà. Òîçè ñúþçíèê àç âèæäàì â ìàêåäîíèçìà èëè â îïðåäåëåíè ìúäðî ïîñòàâåíè ãðàíèöè, îòðàçÿâàíå íà ìàêåäîíñêèÿ äèàëåêò è ìàêåäîíñêàòà ñïåöèôèêà. Íÿìà íèùî ïî-ïðîòèâîïîëîæíî íà áúëãàðñêèòå òåíäåíöèè îò òîâà - ñ íèêîãî áúëãàðèòå íå ìîãàò äà ñå íàìåðÿò â ïî-íåïðèìèðèìî ïîëîæåíèå îò ìàêåäîíèçìà". Äèïëîìàòñêè àðõèâ - Äóáðîâíèê, ÏÏ îäåëü., ô. I - 251/1888 ã Oh, and yeah stop with that paranoia that someone wants your percious land...it's stupid...
Ceki	You are so baned and deleted, ASSHOLE. quote: Oh, and yeah stop with that paranoia that someone wants your percious land...it's stupid... Of course nobody, because you all think this is your land, ASSHOLE. quote: The # 1 aim in the foreign policy of the Bulgarian State was the unification of the the slavs of the Eastern South Slavs, thats why they call it Bulgarian Group...which ment fight with Byzantine of course...and so one and so on. Motherfucker, croatians and serbians also fought with byzantinians. And i have never heard of this term "bulgarian group" before, ASSHOLE. quote: Stojan Novakovich is believed to be one of the creators of the Makedonism: Of course, he was the one that convinced people from greece, serbia and bulgaria that they are Macedonians, ASSHOLE. quote: On your first point.I don't tell you how to feel! Be macedonian if you want to, no problem... You think you are funny, well guess what your time will come too, ASSHOLE.
Thunder from down under	abe bugar, 1912 pirin belonged to macedonia meanning it was populated with (aj pogodi) if you answer Macedonians you were right in 1913 the big bad wolf come around and ate the Macedonians or maybe UFO`s come and took all the Macedonians to Mars is that how you trying to lie to yourself? use your fucken little bulgarian brain man dont try to fool anyone ,you only fooling your self you pathetic tatar
graf	u tell him thunder :)
Misirkov	Tatarlover (tataroljubec): What exactly are you are arguing? That there are no Macedonians in pirin Macedonia or Bulgaria?!? Or how many Macedonians there in light of Bulgaria's denials that we Macedonians and our macedonian language exists?!? Multiple credible international sources put the number of Macedonians in Bulgaria at about 250.000! This is acknopwledged by the advisers to President Zelju Zelev, who lament the "cemented" policy of covering up that Macedonians exist. Face it: we are a historical reality and no bularo-asiatic or afro-greek trickery can deny that fact. In the words of the British statesman EDUARD BOYLE (after the Ilinden Uprising in 1903): "BORBATA NA MAKEDONCITE PRETSTAVUVA STREMEZ KON SLOBODA NA EDEN JASNO OFORMEN I SVESEN NAROD." (prepecateno vo "Kniga za Ilinden", Skopje 1969, str. 39). Let me repeat that: "THE STRUGGLE OF THE MACEDONIANS REPRESENTS A DESIRE FOR FREEDOM OF AN ALREADY FORMED AND CONSCIOUS PEOPLE."
Misirkov	"Hey Joe, don't let me down..." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Amnesty International, 22 APRIL 1994 BULGARIA: AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL URGES AUTHORITIES TO ENSURE POLICE OBSERVANCE OF INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS STANDARDS Amnesty International is urging the authorities to ensure that police abide by international human rights standards at tomorrow's ethnic Macedonian commemorative assembly, following the violent events which overtook the assembly last year. The commemorative assembly at Rozhen Monastery is an annual event, traditionally organized by OMO "Ilinden" (United Macedonian Organization "Ilinden") to commemorate the death of Jane Sandanski, a local hero of the struggle against Ottoman rule at the turn of the century. On 24 April 1993, dozens of ethnic Macedonians, many of them members of OMO "Ilinden", were ill-treated by police officers in Lozenitsa and Spatovo after attempting to visit Rozhen Monastery. "Special police units beat them with truncheons and rifle butts; they dragged people from their cars and knocked them to the ground", Amnesty International said. "We are concerned that the apparently unprovoked attack by officers of the special police units on the people who gathered in Lozenitsa and Spatovo represented a flagrant violation of international human rights standards, including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), to which Bulgaria has acceded."; Amnesty International is particularly concerned by the reported statement from the Regional Security Service of Blagoevgrad that the police are undertaking "all appropriate measures to surround the area around the Rozhen Monastery on 23 April and to prevent the OMO "Ilinden" assembly from taking place". Three ethnic Macedonians are already reported to have been detained in Blagoevgrad while peacefully exercising their right to freedom of expression. On 15 April, Stoyan Machkarov, Khristo Yanev and Lubomir Vasilev were reportedly arrested by members of the Regional Security Service of Blagoevgrad and charged with putting up posters to announce Saturday's assembly. All three were allegedly [reed]beaten while in the police station[/red] before being released that day. Amnesty International considers their detention and alleged ill- treatment to be a violation of the ICCPR. As a State Party to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, Bulgaria is bound to initiate a prompt and impartial investigation wherever there is evidence that torture or other ill-treatment has occurred. Amnesty International has written to Zhelyu Zhelev, the President of Bulgaria, urging him to initiate an independent and impartial inquiry into the alleged beatings in Blagoevgrad, to make public its findings and to bring to justice anyone responsible for human rights violations. The human rights organization has still not received any reply to its letter of July 1993, to Minister of the Interior, Viktor Mikhaylov, that expressed its concern at the police violence at last year's assembly. The human rights organization called on the Bulgarian Government to initiate an independent and impartial inquiry into the alleged ill- treatment of people in Lozenitsa and Spatovo, to make public its findings and to bring to justice all those found responsible. Amnesty International is not aware whether such an investigation took place. The human rights organization is urging President Zhelev to ensure that the police in the area of Rozhen Monastery on 23 April abide by relevant international human rights standards including UN Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials.