| Your favourite site - historyofmacedonia.org | |
| Pavel_Petrov | Let's look at your favourite historical site: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/MacedoniansNotBulgarians.html The first statement is correct. Ancient Macedonians have nothing in common with Bulgars. I agree. The second statement: Ok. You conquered the motherland of Bulgars.So what. The authors seem to have the need to mention Alexander the Great. Note: Both statements so far deal with ancient times. Before BC. 3rd and 4th statement have nothing to do with the question. This is Balkan history.How Roman Empire conquered Macedonia and after that macedonia was part of Byzantium..and exactly when the Slavs came to Balkans is not important to question. 5th is correct that's the initial formation of modern Bulgarian nation. The process started in 7th century and ended around 10th. 6th statement: a) Bulgars never settled in Macedonia. Not right. :) http://www.kutriguri.com/6.html "688-689 AD Emperor Justinian II began a campaign against Khan Kuber’s state in Macedonia going against the treaty agreed upon in 685 AD. He first took his armies across Thrace and attacked the Slavic tribes allied with Khan Kuber." Kuber is brother of Asparuch. As you may know bulgars divided in several fraction after the attack of the Kzahars.. and those 2 fractions settled in the Balkan peninsular. PS This is NOT Bulgarian site.All members are from the USA. This group of people are interested in the Hunno-Bulgar history and traditions. http://www.kutriguri.com/contact.html By the way according to them adopting christianity by the Bulgarians in 865 is betrayal to the Bulgar roots. On the other hand Modern Bulgarians consider kniaz Mihail one of their best rullers. And we are thankful to him. b)As you have seen there were Bulgars in Macedonia.So this is not temporary conquest but just joining both parts of the Bulgars in one state. Moreover Khan Krum is from the Kuber Bulgarians that lived in Macedonia. Krum rulled Bulgaria from 795-814 and is one of the most successful khans. c) Yes Ancient Macedonians really preserved their nation in the borders of the Roman Empire and Byzantium. Ancient Macedonians existed and lived in Byzantium for a long time. The Macedonian dynasty rulled from 867-1057. And guess what? Basil II Bulgaroktonus(the Bulgar-slayer)(976-1025)who defeated Samuil was from the Macedonian dynasty. Why two Macedonians Samuil and Basil have to fight each other?? Moreover Basil is called Bulgar-slayer that means that Samuil was Bulgarian. :) If Samuil is Bulgarian that means that his people are Bulgarians. So Vardar Macedonia was inhabited by significant number of Bulgarians. Not all of the population was Bulgarian but most of them for sure.I believe that there were really Macedonians in Ohrid area. But most of the successors of the Ancient Macedonians existed and lived in Solun area in Aegean Macedonia during 11th century.I do not know more about them for know but I will find different sources and share them with you. If they have not been assimilated by the greeks they should be sought there in the Aegean.(I'm not very competent in greek history so I cannot comment.) I can continue to comment and prove almost all the statements wrong but I'll stop here because it's useless. Any intelligent person will understand that historyofmacedonia.org is 95% propaganda. I'm ready to discuss with anyone.But please do not insult me. I insulted no one. Just used facts. As you can see I didn't say that there are no successors of the Ancient Macedonians. Please read carefully and I'll be glad to comment your questions. I will be very disappointed if you ban me because I haven't written anything humiliating or any propaganda. |
| Thunder from down under | did you read the 22nd statment? 22. The Bulgarians and the Macedonians also defer in physical appearance. The typical Mongolic features among the modern Bulgarians are absent among the Macedonians. The ancient Bulgar personal names still common today among the modern Bulgarians are absent among the Macedonians. The Bulgarian and Macedonian folklore and music are much different and none of the Bulgarian khans or other rulers have ever been celebrated among the Macedonians. In contrast stories about the Macedonian kings Alexander the Great and Philip II, and the Macedonian Slav Czar Samoil dominate the Macedonian folklore, music, and dance. Finally, the fact that the Bulgarians have kept their ancient Asiatic name, and the Macedonians have kept their ancient European name speaks clearly that they are aware of the fact they are two different nations with two different ethnic roots. |
| Ceki | Se nadevam deka moderatorite ke storat sto e potrebno[;)] |
| Misirkov | 1.So what's the point about mentioning that Alexander conquered the homeland of the Bulgars (today's Tatarstan and surrounding areas)? Why do you have a problem with that historical fact? 2. Yes, both statements deal with our ancient history. Again, a problem is arising from the fact that you, self-identified Bulgar, cannot claim such ancient history in the Balkans? 3. Macedonian history is Balkan history, during Roman or Byzantine times. Still problems? 4. Also, there seem to be problems with the fact that Bulgars never settled in Macedonia. Modern Bulgarian historiography likes to claim "settlements" out of armed invasions of nomadic Bulgar hordes which destroyed everything in their sight. The fact is that the Bulgars comanded majority of people from the Danube basin who already were depopulated from Macedonia and many of them returned asked to their places od domicile (and were denied by Kuber, so they volunarily broke off or were forcefully sent to other places). Read the "Cudesata na Sv. Dimitrija" -- the primary document that inhabitanst in today's Bulgaria use as a proof, it is all there. 5. "Slavic tribes allied with Khan Kuber" - this never was. "Slavs" were subdued, enslaved by the barbarian Bulgars which is why the state got its name, but the majority of the inhabitants were not Bulgars. The forming of the "bulgarian nation" in the middle ages is a myth. Ask yourself why many were "ashamed to call themselves Bulgarian" as Paisi states? The second Bulgarian kingdom is a Turkish-Vlach state for example. 6. Kutiguri are people alien to us Macedonians in all and every ways. They can as well be Martians. We don't have anything in common with Atila and his ilk. If you want to be part of them, "evala". 7. Bulgarians adopted Christianity because of the political and military pressures they felt from Byzantium (Tangra being their religion - again alien to Macedonians). There was a famine several years in a row and the Bulgars had nowhere to go but to succumb. Accepting Christianity was a compromise for them. ALL others in Macedonia did not have to be christened because they were already Christian! 8. It is a conquest. What were those Bulgars doing in Macedonia which was half world away from their Bulgaristan??? Remember there were Macedonians conquering the wolrd and with it Bulgaristan (Tatarstan). Conquest is a conquest, even if named "joining both parts of Bulgars in one state." 9. So now ancient Macedonians still lived during Romans and Byzamtium??? As until yesterday, your compatriots denied this fact!!! Basil II the Macedoinian (that's how he is known due to his Macedonian dynasty), defeated Samoil and called him Bulgarian for 2 reasons: (a) As a posthumous insuult not to recognize him a Macedonian; (b) there was already a Theme Macedonia which covered Thrace and only a part of the original Macedonia so that would have been a misnomer at the time. So Samoil is not a Bulgarian, and Vardar Macedonia was NOT populated by a significant number of Bulgarians because the original Bulgars who came there were a miniscule number of the population. IT IS SUMMER. HIGH TIME THAT YOU THINK OF A SUMMER JOB - PIKING STRAWBERRIES OR WATERMELLON. SEZONA E! LEAVE HISTORY TO THE HISTORIANS - AND US MACEDONIANS ALONE. |
| Fred | Yeah yeah whatever "dude"...believe in that crap the rest of the world[historians I mean, the normal ppl don't even know where FYR Macedonia is!] knows that are the Macedonians! You will always remain the sh!t-hole on the Balkans with over 20% Shiptar population and identity crisis... Dreams dreams dreams... "Nothing feels better than a good lie" BUT lies are short-lived...just wait and we will see who is wrong and who's not...I have no problem waiting few years,do you? |
| Misirkov | Science of History vs. "yeah, yeah whatever dude": Let me remind you that 5 million euros are offered for a satisfactory explanation how Bulgarinas became "Slavs". Perhaps you can have a stab at it since the Bulgarina Academy of Sciences (BAN) seems to be at a loss for yet more fiction. Come on, what do you have to loose? http://www.government.bg/Bulgaria/History "През 864 г., по време на управлението на княз Борис Първи Михаил (852-889 г.) българите приемат християнството като официална религия. С това се премахват етническите различия между прабългари и славяни и започва изграждането на единна българска народност..." |
| Strelec | quote:Аууу... Misirkov, за ова од мене имаш едно чоканче со домашна жолта ракија (кога ќе дојдеш во посета)!:) |
| Freddy | quote:Yeah dude you use absolutely "scientific methods"!!!BANNING AND DELETING OTHERS' POSTS + changing their previous posts to suit you!! BRAVO!!! You can sell this "Science of history" to HARVARD[8D] quote:Modern Bulgarians are mainly slavs by origin with a slavonic language and stuff...but you are probably talking about Bulgars or as otherwise called proto-bulgarians or pra-bulgarians... The Bulgars NEVER became slavs, it's impossible...they were assimilated into the local population and eventually disappeared, leaving their name and state traditions to the Bulgarian/as opose to Bulgar/ nation. There are many examples of such "cooperations" in history.The Russ a germanic tribe, ruled the East slavs and they were the ruling tribe leaving their name and state tradition to the now RUSSIANS... This could be said for almost any country in Europe... quote:What from the above quote do you don't understand my friend? Before 9th century their were to major ethnic groups on the BG land, Bulgars[very little, but still the ruling class and ergo very important] and Slavs...the 2 ethnos had 2 diff religions and 2 diff languages...After the new common religion - christianity and the new common language - slavonic - were adopted the differences were gradually diminished and from the end of 9th cent, we speak of a homoheneous Bulgarian /NOT BULGAR or BOLGAR as it's different/ nation - with slavic literature, language and christian religion!!! I want my 5 million euros!!![:p] |
| Ceki | quote:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA Abe ti si epten budalo, kazi mi ti mene dali se vikate vie DENESKA bulgariansi ili bugari? Slovencive ve viket bolgari!!! Abe ti mrdnat si ili kakov si. Vo 9 vek, engleskiot jazik ne bese razsiren, ko sto e deneska. Pa se to sto go kazvis e isto. Vie ste bugari ili po slovensko bolgari!!!! Me iznasmeja, bulgarians a ne bolgars, HAHAHAHAAA. Sto be i windows xp imase vo 9. vek, HAHAHHAAAA!!! Barem nesto smesno napisa ako ne drugo. Hehehe mrdnat eden. P.S. ne znam dali ke dobijas 5 miljoni evra za ova[:)] |
| Freddy | Ceki ceki ceki vidi se deka nishto ne si prifatil!!! I am talking about the terms used TODAY by the historians...to make the distinguishment b/n proto-bulgarians and Bulgarian...sorry that you have no brains to understand or try too hard NOT to understand... There were many forms of the Bulgain name tru the centuries: Болгари Блъгари Българи Болхари etc. BUT in English when you use BULGAR it usually means a proto-bulgarian... But why do I even bother ...? |
| Ceki | quote:So what? A couple of different letters doesnt make a new nation! For example you are today bolgari in Slovenian, bulgarians in english and bugari in Macedonian, ... Does this make 3 nations from you? |
| Freddy | NO it does NOT!!! You don't understand me obviusly! I mean that in modern historiography there are few terms that mean differnt things... Today when you say Bulgarian you mean a modrn Bulgarian... When you say Bulgar/usually in historical sence/ you mean a proto-bulgarian or also called pra-bulgarians... The fix proto- is also used to make the diff between now and then... You can speak of a homogeneous Bulgarian nation different from the proto-bulgarians/Bulgars/ after 9th century,If you speak about Bulgarians prior to that date you are speaking about proto-bulgarians... kapish? |
| Ceki | Ok, ok! Now i think i get it. But let us compare names for YOU that are used TODAY in languages, that suround you with english names, that are according to you WRONG and OLD. Slovenia: bolgari, simmilar to bolgars, but this name should be only applied to your old ancestors, or what did you say ... Macedonia: bu(l)gari, simmilar to bulgars, but this name should be only applied to your old ancestors, or what did you say ... Very interesting conclusions we can make, when we concentrate on place where we live, and not just on some english studies, that dont even know where bulgaria is. But please explain to me where did bulgarian came from? From bulgar? It is just the same shit with different name. |
| Freddy | Ceki You are mixing languages and names!Either talk about english and it's form or about a slavonic language and its forms!!! In english MOST ppl use Bulgarians....very little use Bulgars...However, BULGARS is the prefered term to be used when talking about prot-bulgarians....ERGO most historians prefer using the fix proto- or pra- before bulgarian rather than bulgars... In Bulgarian we call them Пра-българи....Those slavonic languages that do NOT use the Ъ use O or У...so you could come across Bolgari,Bu(l)gari.... Using Bulgars in stead of Bulgarians in ENGLISH is NOT wrong...it depends on the meaning you are using it with.If you are historian and say Bulgars you are talking about prot-bulgarians...if you are just a normal guy that is not aware of history and don't care then Bulgars is also acceptable... However, the main reason for this post was to show Misirkov how moronish his posts are; that he on purpose talks about Bolgars /they live in the russian federation/ or proto-bulgarians and tries to "proove" that modern Bulgarians are the same as the proto-bulgarians and stuff.. P.S. Every person with a little bit of reason will understand what I mean...I am SURE that Misirkov knows well what I mean BUT he is just pretending...thinking that if he continues to play that game someone might believe him!!!Poor guy... |
| Ceki | Mixing languages and names?
Bulgaria is neither slavonic neither german( english) word, so it is more than obvious that it has same meaning and it looks same in both languages, because it was taken from non-english and non-slavonic people.
For example, how many words are taken in english and Macedonian language from latin and greek? Hundreds and they even look the same.
So waht are you trying to proove??
quote:Step by step you are changing your mind, i like that. |
| Freddy | Oh dear god are you so ....
Why are you changing the god damn subject!!!
You are taking my quotesout out of context....
I said that using BULGAR in ENGLISH to address the a modern Bulgarian is NOT wrong if used in NON-historical matter BUT in this forum you are talking about history so Bulgar=proto-bulgarian.
However, this is not important at all...what matters is that Misirov uses quotes about Bolgars/Volga Bulgars/ or Proto-Bulgarians to describe the modern Bulgarians...
quote:Well dahhh! You don't seem to still understand.The proto- or pra- fixes are used only TODAY to make the diff b/n NOW and THEN...The proto-bulgarians did not call themselves proto-bulgarians...but just bulgarians/using one of the many different forms/...However,historians stop speaking of proto-bulgarians after 9th cent. and use only Bulgarians coz after this point the Bulgarian nation had formed; the proto-bulgarians had been assimilated and so on... Don't tell me you did not get it again!!! |
| Ceki | quote:It was YOU that said, there is a difference betwen bulgar and bulgarian and bolgar, i just prooved you that this is same shit. So what is your problem then???? And yes you changed your mind. quote:And stop with bullshit like proto and that stuffs, you said by yourself, that it is only a modern term, that has nothing to do with reality. It is just a help for historians to easily explain the development of bulgarian tribe. I see no difference betwen bolgars, bulgars or bulgarians, as i explained to oyu, i gave you proofs, that you are still called bolgars and bulgars even today. And if "proto-bulgarians" called themselves bulgarians, bolgars, or W/E, then they WERE bulgarians, bolgars or W/E. And not some proto-bulgarians as you are tryed to explain to me. This proto stuufs are just to help the historians to easily understand it. Nothing more. We can just simply call them bulgarians, bolgars or W/E. And now you can start how they mixed with slavs into bulgarians, but WTF. There were more slavs than bulgarians, so they couldnt be bulgarians. It is just a political name, that was given to you from your rulling asiatic people. And is your languge slavic just to me, or is really slavic? So neither your language is bulgarian, because bulgarian language is something completely different, that has nothing to do with slavic. So neither you have right to call it bulgarian language, because it is NOT. But at this point you usually start screaming things about mixing people and traditions ... Hipocrits. And now here comes your story of proto-bulgarians mixing with slavs into bulgarians. But those people called themselves bulgarians(bolgars, W/E,...) and not proto-bulgarians. As you also said. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEN BOLGARS, BULGARS AND BULGARIANS And yes you call yourself bulgarians today, DO IT i dont care, you can call yourself even martians if you want. BUT DONT MAKE US BULGARIANS, COS THERE ARE NO BULGARIANS AT ALL. If you like this name, keep it, but keep it for yourself, dont rape us with it. I tell you i rather call my self SHITHEAD, than bulgarian, this name is disgusting to me and all Macedonians. I WOULD NEVER CALL MY SELF BULGARIAN, NEVER!!! |
| Freddy | Ha ha.....take it easy pal!We don't want to visit the ER for a chest check...heart attack is something very serious![;)]
What should I say?I really don't see any progress!We came to where we started!
I really hope that you are not continuing you education in the historical or political field!DO NOT!Won't go further!But hey you might be good at math?Hope so...
quote:Well Dahhh!Some slavs became Byzantines,some Bulgarian other Serbs and so on...Like the germanic tribe Russ ruled the east slavs and they became Russians! quote:Then how come you are Macedons?You don't speak greek or the lang they spoke...You speak a slavonic language!? quote:We don't call it Bulgarian from yesterday...It has been around as it is from 9th. century!Your language only came into being in 1944 when it broke from Bulgarian! Indo-European Language tree http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/language_tree.htm quote:If you still don't get it by now you have some serious learning disorders!But I don't care much so... quote:Ok dude...if you wish...just to remaind you that it's not us[Bulgarians] that have identity crisis and are asigned by a temporary name of FYROM in UN; or whose official citizen's name is (slav)Macedonian or citizen of the FYR Macedonia...Isn't this right? quote:HOPEFULLY NOT!!!If you do our [Bulgarian] comulative IQ score will drop few point![;)] |
| Ceki | quote:I guess you do care, cos you are even making new profiles, after you have been baned twice already. And i still say, and always will be saying, that all those names are meaning the same. I think, that you think that every bulgar family had different name for its family, like blogar, bulgar, blugar, ... Well, if you are not willing to admit they are still bulgarians, then it is you that has an identity crisis and is ashamed of his asiatic ancestors. Well if you think you are bulgarian, than this is your problem, not mine[8D]. Times are changing, but dont worry about us, we will always be Macedonians. No need for you to come here and tell us we are not, or that we are even bulgars[xx(] It is your nation that people laugh at, not ours. It is your whores that are sold all over the Europe, not ours. It is your products, that are humiliated all over Europe, not ours. It is you that are thought to be gypsies, not us[;)] So be happy, it is a new day and you will be forever bulgar!! You must be so proud of your ancestors. quote:I dont think it can go even lower, since they already have you and your family. I just hope this bulgarian shit will be cleared once and for all times. I dont think i am wrong, when i say that you are shame of human race. World would be much nicer place to live, without you. And dont say we are those, that nobody likes. Because many wants our name, our history, our people, our land, ... And nobody yours[xx(] So that is why you are so sad and ashamed of yourself( plus that loss from Sweden with 5:0[:)]). Well dont worry, there are some people in tatarstan, that take you as their rolemodels[:o)] |
| highlander | Tatari: Back to the steppes! |
| Freddy | Fy-romi: Se vrataite vo Shiptaro-fyromia! |
| Thunder from down under | quote:is that how your father teach you, when you visit people to call them names ? read this, it comes from CIA The Bulgars, a Central Asian Turkic tribe, merged with the local Slavic inhabitants in the late 7th century to form the first Bulgarian state. In succeeding centuries, Bulgaria struggled with the Byzantine Empire to assert its place in the Balkans, but by the end of the 14th century the country was overrun by the Ottoman Turks. Bulgaria regained its independence in 1878 but, having fought on the losing side in both World Wars, it fell within the Soviet sphere of influence and became a People's Republic in 1946. Communist domination ended in 1990 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bu.html |
| Ceki | Abe toj zelen e vo glata. Toj mislit ako zborvime bulgars, e razlika megu bulgars i bulgarians, kako megu kinezi i germanci. |
| Ceki | BTW, ovoj freddy navreduva, mozda ban za nego? |
| Freddy | What is written on CIA is pretty much true...what does it proove?Bulgars settled Macedonia too creating Kuber Bulgaria which united with Danub Bulgaria during the rull of Khan Krum...The Bulgars were however only the ruling class, the majority being Slavs... But lets' see that CIA says about you? International recognition of The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia's (F.Y.R.O.M.) independence from Yugoslavia in 1991 was delayed by Greece's objection to the new state's use of what it considered a Hellenic name and symbols. Greece finally lifted its trade blockade in 1995, and the two countries agreed to normalize relations, despite continued disagreement over F.Y.R.O.M.'s use of "Macedonia." F.Y.R.O.M.'s large Albanian minority, an ethnic Albanian armed insurgency in F.Y.R.O.M. in 2001, and the status of neighboring Kosovo continue to be sources of ethnic tension. Well,CIA starts speaking about Bulgaria from 7th century and about you from 1991...wonder why?[;)] |
| Freddy | quote:Mojebi si sakal da kazesh - "BTW, ovoj freddy kajuva vistinata, mozda ban za nego? Pa moje i ban, shto da ne moje forumov e zatoa da se banvat orata koi shto velat vistini a vie da si go zatvrduvate indenditetot kako psuete bugarite.... So zdrave... |
| Ceki | Da da, sekako. Se razbira, kazuvas takva vistina podkrepena so falsikuvani dokumenti i so mnogu cudni fakti. |
| Thunder from down under | abe freddy kako e mozno ti da e znaesh vistinata? taka te lazele na ucilishte freddy kolku turci ziveeat vo bugarija? btw: cestitki na golemiot uspeh vo portugalija uste mnogu takvi uspesi da si docekate :) |
| Misirkov | Freddy: "What is written on CIA is pretty much true...what does it proove? The Bulgars were however only the ruling class, the majority being Slavs..." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It proves that you are a bit stupid and/or cannot make logical deductions. The vast majority of the inhabitants of this new state, created by invading turko-mongol Bulgars, rightfully call themselves Macedonians, Vlachs and everything else. Let me remind you: "...Najposle, makedonskoto prashanje izleze vo javnost i se pojavi vo pecatot. Nie velime najposle, zashto ova prashanje NE E NOVA RABOTA. Nie ushte pred DESET GODINI slushame od nekoi luge vo Makedonija deka tie NE SE BUGARI TUKU MAKEDONCI, potomci na starite Makedonci, deka MAKEDONCITE se SLOVENI, a Bugarite TATARI i ne znam shto drugo...Taka nie mislevme do edno dve-tri godini, koga novite razgvori so nekoi Makedonci ni pokazaa deka rabotata ne e samo goli zborovi, tuku i vo mislite, koi MNOZINA sakaat da gi sprovede vo delo..." (P.R. Slavejkov, v. "Makedonija," 1871 godina). |
| zArE | Testing :) |
| Freddy | Misirkov if you can NOT sense the irony Slavejkov uses I am sorry for you...I think that the original text usues the word "uj" which is equal to "yeah right"...
quote:That means that Oxford, Columbia University Press and Britannica are into the Bulgarian "propaganda"? quote:746 664 (census 2001) http://www.nsi.bg/Census/Ethnos.htm quote:Ti blagodaram![:D] Kude e "velikata" makedonska reprezentazija?Nie pone bevme na finalite!!!Where were you?[;)]Playing in the pan-shqiptaro-macedonian fuDbal matches?[8D] quote:Pa to i Britannica i Oxford "falshifikuvat" so nas!? |
| Thunder from down under | freddy, encyclopediite se pisuvani od luge kako mene i tebe , na primer vo colliers enciklppedijata za Bugarija celiot tekst go imat pishuvano Dimitrina Petrova -Bugarka po nacionalnost , ako jas bi go pisuval sigurno bi bilo poinaku napishano, a za toa sho vikash dek aimalo 746 664 turci vo Bugarija kolku sho znam jas do pred 10-15 godini nemashe nitu eden turcin tamu, sigurno se imat nekoja golema preselba sluceno vo poslednive 15 godini :) vo vrska so euro2004 jas si velam porano sedi si doma ako ne si sposoben ne odi nikade da se stramish :)) |
| Ceki | quote:Irony or not, the fact is that in 19th century, "south slavs" thought for Ilyrians to be their descendants. When Napoleon counqered those places, he made out of Slovenian and Croatian teritory Ilyrian provinces. I would point out, that year was 1871( long before tito[:0]) and this is not NOVA RABOTA, so it means this was older and yes Macedonians thought of themselves to be Macedonians. And here is longer version. "...Najposle, makedonskoto prashanje izleze vo javnost i se pojavi vo pecatot. Nie velime najposle, zashto ova prashanje NE E NOVA RABOTA. Nie ushte pred DESET GODINI slushame od nekoi luge vo Makedonija deka tie NE SE BUGARI TUKU MAKEDONCI, potomci na starite Makedonci, deka MAKEDONCITE se SLOVENI, a Bugarite TATARI i ne znam shto drugo. Vo pocetokot zborovite na ovie patrioti gi zemavme na shega i za paganje vo ogan na nashite netolku seriozi sporovi. Taka nie mislevme do edno dve-tri godini, koga novite razgvori so nekoi Makedonci ni pokazaa deka rabotata ne e samo goli zborovi, tuku i vo mislite, koi MNOZINSTVOTO saka da gi sprovede vo delo. I zalno i teshko ni beshe nam da slushame takvi zborovi, no ne se osmeluvavme za ova prashanje da govorime vo pecatot, bidejki taa rabota ni izgledashe dosta delikata, a posebno vo situacija vo koja se naogavme. Deneska toa prashanje izleze na pazarot, blagodarejki na nevnimanieto na eden od nashite bugarski sobraka, pa sakale nie sega ili ne, prinudeni sme javno da istapime....." |
| dejan | quote:So you accept the fact that your traits can be traced back to those Turkish-Mongolian tribes, and the fact that you borrowed another nations culture and tried to reasure the world that is your own culture, but have gone no where with success? It's obvious that you do[;)] Is there any indication in the CIA world fact book that Macedonian's are related to people like you? So called Bulgars, which is probably derived from the word, vulgar, meaning that Bulgars are vulgar people. Yes you should wonder why CIA starts to speak about Macedonia from 1991.....hmmm well maybe because that was the most recent change in our history, but for you Bulgar-tartars they need to start from the 7th century, seeing how there is nothing of interest anytime after that......oh and hold on, look at what CIA has to say about Greece Greece achieved its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1829. During the second half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, it gradually added neighboring islands and territories, most with Greek-speaking populations. Following the defeat of Communist rebels in 1949, Greece joined NATO in 1952. A military dictatorship, which in 1967 suspended many political liberties and forced the king to flee the country, lasted seven years. The 1974 democratic elections and a referendum created a parliamentary republic and abolished the monarchy; Greece joined the European Community or EC in 1981 (which became the EU in 1992). Does it say anything about the ancient background of the area in Greece? No it only lists the interesting events that occurred in the country. Also look at Italy, http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/it.html same thing. Stop contradicting yourself retard. |
| Freddy | I don't talk with genius from down under! |
| Misirkov | Tatar Gazette No. 1, 28.02.2001 "MY WAY TO AUSTRALIA" Rustam YUMASH It is very difficult to write about yourself. As one famous Australian personality said during the presentation of his new book, it is good for your soul to confess in the public but it is bad for your reputation. And perhaps, confessing for the Tatar audience is a special case. I would say it is even kind of a cathartic venture. Your native people, as your mother, demands Roentgen clarity and deep sincerity. Tatars are my people, my big family. That might sound a bit pathetic, maybe my being an emigrant affects it. The nostalgia, the yearning for the lost paradise of my careless childhood, like a navelstring links me to my Motherland. In short I fell myself kind of voulnerable and sentimental. The Lord-Mayor of the Gold Coast hands me over the certificate of the Australian citizenship. The desired aim is achieved. A lot of things which seemed to be impossible, were made for this. But, as if often happens, this is only the beginning of a new phase. There is still a lot of work to build up my own life. Just like my father, I was born an artistic and romantic person, though not without the practical sharpness. Nevertheless I was always more attracted by the non-material things. This inclination, by the way, can be traced in my father's kin. My grand-grandfather was a mullah in the village of Norkino of the Baltache district of Bashkiria. When he was a boy, he left his home taking a horse to study in a madrasah, against the will of his father. Later on he became a mullah in his native village, where his father, having forgiven his son, built a mosque for him. They say that my grandgrandfather saved many people in the times of 1921's hunger feeding them with his own reserves. My kin had to have been prosperous. My grandmother, Salima-nenei used to tell us that a real hill was made of the dung left by the herd of my ancestors. The hill was called after the name of my grand-grand-grandfather. In 1930 when Stalin began oppressing the religion and the village bourgeoisie, my grand-grandfather mullah was dispossessed as a kulak and sent to prison. Later he was set free because of his age. He spent the rest of his life in a bath-house. His house and mosque were taken away from him. His property was ransacked by the same people he had saved from starvation. After many years, our relatives found his Koran with remarks made by him on the margins. The family in those fatal 30s was sent somewhere to chop wood. My grandmother was 18 at that time. She barely survived after a lot of wandering with an infant in arms. My grandfather Auhat had to hide in Ukraine under a fake name, he worked at a coal mine like many Tatars did. In a few years they reunited with my grandmother and moved to Ufa. My grandfather worked for the railroad there up to his retirement. ...My grandmother, Salima-nenei, was an outstanding person and played a great role in my spiritual formation. I think that it was her who gave me the traditional Tatar muslim values, which feed and save my soul. I'm so sorry that I grew up in a full-day kindergarten, then I went to school which had an extended day group. I was deprived of a full-scale contact with my grandmother. I'm very sorry that I missed many things I could take from her. So, I was always interested in humanities. Still, after the army service, I decided to take up medicine. After graduating from the Bashkirian State Medical Institute and the practice in 1991, due to some financial reasons I decided to leave my clinic and work for private medical business. At that time I got interested in psychotherapy. That was the result of my inclinations. Taking part in an American workshop on intensive psychotechnics of integrating the mind, based on the connected breathing (Rebirthing). That was the starting point for the dramatic changes in my life. Without going into professional details, I'll say only that after a number of trainings and workshops I was invited to an 18-month course on Rebirthing in Australia. I can remember that during the interview with a representative of the State security service I was told that I was the first person in Bashkiria to leave for a capitalist country for such a long time. Since my arrival to the Breathconnection centre I attended 7 intensive workshops which stirred up my mind. I had a long period of understanding the reality, of looking for facts and answers. I managed to become close friends with many Australians. I should especially menion Carry, an Australian psychologist who became my close friend, my mentor and my father in a way. With his help I managed to develop my own trend of psychosomatic therapy both theoretically and practically. For 8 years already we have been working together helping people to overcome shocks and stresses, conflicts and personal problems. Now I'm happy that I have the possibility to do my favourite job. My personal and professional interest in psychotherapy and my intensive attempts to understand myself, the human psychology and behaviour, brought me to the understanding of the necessity of the widest knowledge of many sides of the life including my kin's and people's history. The attempts to understand myself, my parents gradually grow into a systematical interest in creating the overall image of the family reality in which I became an individuality. A person, that doesn't know his culture and is not rightfully proud of it, is weak and miserable. That's one of the reasons why I keep spending much time in eliminating the passive mankurtism in myself. Stradbrook Island near Brisbane, Queensland, a unique resort for Australian and foreign tourists. Great beaches, nature, dolphins, whales, food for gourmets. A nice place. I'm sitting and waiting for a launch to get back to Brisbane. Sabantui in Adelaida My trip to Sabantui in November, 1999 became a very remarkable event for me. The feeling was as if I touched the sacred ancient spirit of our ancestors. Sabantui rised in me the steppe spirit of our souls which can't be destroyed neither by time, nor by severe ordeals, nor by the temptations and the gloss of the modern civilization. For a long time I hadn't had such a terrific time among my tribesmen. It's very sad to confess, but that was the first Sabantui in my life. What an unforgettable impression! As if the blood of tatar djigits woke up in my veins. Tatar songs full of life, funny competitions, all this created the atmosphere of true happiness and left a great impression. What else can heal a Tatar soul if not Sabantui? I was very touched and very grateful to the Tatar-Bashkir Association in Adelaida for their great work and their patriotic enthusiasm in organizing the festival and the museum exhibition. VIDI KAKO IZGLEDAAT RODITELITE: http://www.peoples.org.ru/tatar/160b.jpg |
| Thunder from down under | quote:sho taka be peder? te boli vistinata? |
| dejan | quote:Well guess what? YOU JUST DID! And yeah THunder, the truth does hurt, he contradicted himself too many times and has nothing else to say. Hey freddy, look at my picture, do i look like one of you? A Bulgar-Tatar? I don't think so. |
| Thunder from down under | dejan so tebe ke se karame m8, sho mu rece kako mu rece na engelski to sho mu napisha i go naluti covekot, jas i ceki odve od koga go davime ti so eden post go zapusti covekot , ne si fer ic m8, poleka trebit ne ti odma , a sho ako se imat obeseno coekot sega , na dusha trebit da go nosish cel zhivot dojde dejan paf puf naednash ni go izbrka pacientot ceki ovaj dejan za chotek placit |
| Ceki | Abe freddy e se uste tuka, i gi zdravit kompleksite svoji so nas. Ke go ozdravime be. |
| Freddy | quote:. Ne sum jas koj shto brasha!Koj gi ima komplexite...a? |
| dejan | quote:ayyy, pa sakam 'fun' da si imam tuka;) ay sto ostana od nego, za tebe i ceki ki vi go ostavam:p quote:I don't give a fuck that you don't care about me, big deal. That's right..keep on telling yourslef that, all 'international' sources support 'you' and only you....would an international source.....such as CIA, support you? Well it is international really, globally known, now what did it say for the intro about Bulgaria...The Bulgars, a Central Asian Turkic tribe, merged with the local Slavic inhabitants in the late 7th century to form the first Bulgarian state. In succeeding centuries, Bulgaria struggled with the Byzantine Empire to assert its place in the Balkans, but by the end of the 14th century the country was overrun by the Ottoman Turks. And you agreed with this...as you said in one of your previous posts What is written on CIA is pretty much true... You keep on contradicting yourself. Wow! 2 pictures of supposed Bulgarians tells me a lot of how the people look like in the actual country! The girl, what is her ethnic back ground? Eastern-Western European. If i gave you a picture of any person living in Australia, would that tell you that all people in Australia are like this? No it wouldn't, Australia is multicultural so it wouldn't tell you that. You're the one who is the moron, the truth must be sinking in deep, and you're frantically seeking sources that you can support yourself by and to provide you with comfort. Look what google reveals http://images.google.com.au/images?q=Bulgarian+people&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en Interesting.....keep on checking the pages, oh and on the first page, fine the picture with the two grown women...they look very...uh, 'Bulgarian/Mongo/tatar' Oh thanks for posting Tose, did you know that he isn't actually Macedonian, his traits can be traiced back to the cluster of people who left the Romanian region and settled in Macedonia. I think they're known as vlahs. Still Macedonian if they're born in the country. Rushi....how many dicks did he have to suck to get to his position? Well here is his fan site, http://www.rushi-fans.hit.bg/ that picture on the site is slightly different to your other pictures..... |
| Ceki | quote:Hehe, za site ke gi ima dovolno. Bravo za postot. |
| Ceki | Thunder i dont agree with the link you gave, it is shallow, simplified and brief history. You can very well see that author is pro-bulgarian. EDIT: Blagodaram[;)] |
| Freddy | That is why Macedonia will always remain the sh!t hole of the Balkans it is now!You always DEVIDE -Vlachs,Serbs,Macedonian,Shiptars,Turks... |
| dejan | quote:xixi, imas pravo, uste povise ke gi imat[xx(] Ama nie, kako na vremeto na Samuil ke gi pobeduvame[:p] |
| Ceki | quote:I think this is your 10th time you crossed the line[:(!] I really hope admins will see this. Vo pravo si Dejan, ke gi pobeduvame sekogas, posto se poniska rasa od nas[^] |
| dejan | quote:What's on the CIA site is pretty much true BUT it's highly simplified...you can NOT summerized 1300 years of History in 2 lines...AND I MEANT HISTORICAL AND SCIENTIFIC AUTORITIES LIKE OXFORD,BRITANNICA and NOT CIA whose only am is to give a bit of info about a country and not go in depth... quote:http://images.google.com.au/images?q=Macedonian+people&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=20&sa=N try "macedonian people".....this is what comes out...hmmm an ancient Macedon[:p] quote:That is why Macedonia will always remain the sh!t hole of the Balkans it is now!You always DEVIDE -Vlachs,Serbs,Macedonian,Shiptars,Turks...... quote:I don't know if he is gay or not and I don't care...personally I don't think he is tho you never know...BUT now you are not only racist but homophobe as well...[xx(] Oh you are hilarious! lele gospode boze! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA i'm just being amused by your posts. 'pretty much true' so you accept the fact that you are a tatar? Wow interesting, humering picture of that islamic person. You want an Ancient Macedonian? http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/people_n2/ppersons2_n2/images_ppersons2/cleopatra.gif there you go, taken from this page http://images.google.com.au/images?q=Macedonian+people&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&start=80&sa=N Only 1300 years of history? Oh.....is that all? Well Macedonia has much more. We always divide? Ya huh.....right-o. That's why, some decades ago when a crazy Bulgarian government existed, that government forced the majority of the Turks living there, to leave the country and go back to Turkey or where ever. Sorry, but who divided? Me racist? I'm sure there is someone else here is far more racist....lets see.....YOU. I didn't imply that he was and i didn't imply that i was homophobic either. Learn how to read properly. Where do you think CIA got it's information for your country? Did they think it all up....no, they would have had to contact your country and some other informing sources, recognised globally. Such as, your beloved Britannica and Oxford. Contradicting yourself all over again! |
| dejan | da da ceki:p oh and another thing freddy, please leave now, because when we win you over, it will be a difficult moment for you, so if you leave now, you'll only benefit yourself:) |
| Freddy | quote:oh really!?Or maybe you meant "we will ban you over"; banning is your way to "win"...[;)] Oh...and of course deleting posts...[;)] |
| dejan | quote:Wow, i bet you wet your pants because of excitement, reading that. I don't believe in that, regardless of the site hosting it, i don't follow names and brands. If there was concrete evidence found in Pakistan that unsolved mystery, something of ancient origin was dicovered and proved something, and this evidence was put in the Pakistan library, or the university of Pakistan. Would you then use that website to back up your arguments? Or would you still go to some other brand website, like britannica even thought it may say the opposite to the Pakistan library/univeristy? |
| dejan | quote:Wow, i bet you wet your pants because of excitement, reading that. I don't believe in that, regardless of the site hosting it, i don't follow names and brands. If there was concrete evidence found in Pakistan that unsolved mystery, something of ancient origin was dicovered and proved something, and this evidence was put in the Pakistan library, or the university of Pakistan. Would you then use that website to back up your arguments? Or would you still go to some other brand website, like britannica even thought it may say the opposite to the Pakistan library/univeristy? |
| dejan | quote:And Bulgarias way of getting their message across is to falsify history, isn't it?[;)] |
| Freddy | Britannica,Oxford Press,Columbia University press...they are all fause for you... Britannica is not just a brand it's one of the oldest and most trusted encyclos in the world... |
| Ceki | quote:You really think that all in this encyclopedias was researched from english, germans, ... A lot of stuffs are added by local "historians" you know and by that falsely accepted as true. Because nobody ever asked us who we are, they always asked our enemys. And that is not a solution. And you can say whatever you want, but Samoils kingdom is grown on base of rebeling against bulgarians and byzantinians, and can trace his origins as back as setlement of slavs. When slavs came in Macedonia, they started to live in class society almost as soon as they came into those places( they were already divided into tribes) , because they met aborigins, Macedonians, and by that they slowly formed their own society. They also fought for liberty against byzantinias as soon as they came. And by that they formed base for further development of Macedonian nation. Slavs in Macedonia were amongst most developed, because they came into area that was rich and developed. Here is the answer why language from Solun became church language. But they were not strong enough to gain liberty as others did, because they were already under strong byzantinian influence. Only when bulgarian empire fall and byzantinians moved their armys in asia, only then they gained enough power to gain liberty, of course with help of capable leader, Samoil. As soon as byzantinians returned their armys in balkan, they beat Samoil. And look, we dont need any "western civilized" people to tell us who we are. We know who we are. And we have proofs for that. Dont worry the world wil hear us. |
| Thunder from down under | quote:everything in britanica about bulgarians is submited by bulgarinas or pro bulgarians how many times i have to tell you i Makedoncite se starosedelci na balkanot, vie ste tie pleminja izmeshani od sekade shto se naselivte kaj shto ste sega, i sve izkradivte od nas i jazik i kutura i nekultura i sve sho znaete i imate od nas e dejan, how many Weet-bix do you have in the morning man? you have no mercy man , give the bugar little bit space man[:D] |
| dejan | teehee:p Well this morning i had around.....6;) So if he comes back, i'll show only little mercy;) |
| Ceki | quote:And other( encylopedias, university, ...) were mainly taking from brittanica, they didnt do much of their own research. |
| dejan | It's also important what you feel inside. |
| Ceki | Pa da, mislis deka grcite se direktni nasledci na antickite grci? I tie se izmesani, mnogu, mozda i poveke od nas. Ama imat pravo da se vikat sebesi grci i uste da ni precat da se vikame Makedonci. |
| Frederico | Eehh pak brashate...tz tz tz [;)]
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Hah Ok "dude" truth hurts...I don't care about you![8D]
ALL international sources and famous historical records support me!!!
And what about you?Hmmm...only Skopje published books support you...
Check Oxford,Stanford, Columbia press...BRITANNICA....or maybe they are into the BG "propaganda" as well???yeah right...!
quote:Ohh...please...Who looks like mongolo-tatars in Bulgaria??You are a moron...a big one... [img]http://www.novinite.com/media/images/2004-06/36112.jpg[/img] Bulgarian Fan on EURO 2004 [img]http://www.toseproeski-music.com/images/sl1_5.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.tose-fanclub.com/foto/studijske/spotovi/snimanje_spota_07.jpg[/img] Tose Proevski - MK pop idol... Oh...and just for the record this is the Bulgarian equivalent of Tose Proevski - Rushi Vidinliev [img]http://rushi-vidinliev.hit.bg/Home%20Page/image.jpg[/img] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ quote:YES! A picture does not show how the whole population looks like!!!ERGO your pic does not proove anything!!! quote:What's on the CIA site is pretty much true BUT it's highly simplified...you can NOT summerized 1300 years of History in 2 lines...AND I MEANT HISTORICAL AND SCIENTIFIC AUTORITIES LIKE OXFORD,BRITANNICA and NOT CIA whose only am is to give a bit of info about a country and not go in depth... quote:http://images.google.com.au/images?q=Macedonian+people&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=20&sa=N try "macedonian people".....this is what comes out...hmmm an ancient Macedon[:p] [img]http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39328000/jpg/_39328642_jm08_icrc_no_re_use.jpg[/img] quote:That is why Macedonia will always remain the sh!t hole of the Balkans it is now!You always DEVIDE -Vlachs,Serbs,Macedonian,Shiptars,Turks...... quote:I don't know if he is gay or not and I don't care...personally I don't think he is tho you never know...BUT now you are not only racist but homophobe as well...[xx(] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ quote:oh really!?Or maybe you meant "we will ban you over"; banning is your way to "win"...[;)] Oh...and of course deleting posts...[;)] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You don't believe in anything that's oppose to your ideas... For you everything is fause if it does not support you... Britannica,Oxford Press,Columbia University press...they are all fause for you... Britannica is not just a brand it's one of the oldest and most trusted encyclos in the world... I came to know that you call Samuil "Macedonia" lust a month ago...I really thought it was damn funny after all every source that is not macedonian or ex-yugo says he is Bulgarian tsar.... quote:Well we got to be damn good if we have managed to "falsify" britannica...[;)] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ quote:Oh please show them to me... quote:Britannica is not some kind of free ecyclo on the internet pal... Since the Encyclop?dia Britannica's founding in 1768, Britannica editors have gathered and organized information on thousands of topics for easy retrieval. More than 200 years later, Encyclop?dia Britannica is still the standard by which other reference works are judged. Encyclop?dia Britannica, Inc., headquartered in Chicago, Illinois, is a leading provider of learning and knowledge products. We're proud to be one of the world's most trusted sources of information on every topic imaginable - from the origins of the universe to current events and everything in between. You might say that somehow a "Bulgarian element" infiltrated the article about Samiul....BUT let's see what else they say... Bulgarian Orthodox Church one of the national churches of the Eastern Orthodox communion. Christianity was introduced to Bulgaria in 864 by Khan (Tsar) Boris I with an archbishop appointed from Constantinople. In Macedonia, the city of Ohrid became an active mission centre. St. Clement of Ohrid, a disciple of the missionary saints Cyril and Methodius, trained a large number of Slavs for the ministry, … http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=18272&tocid=0&query=ohrid&ct= The second Bulgarian empire With the collapse of the first Bulgarian state, the Bulgarian church fell under the domination of Greek ecclesiastics who took control of the see of Ohrid and attempted to replace the Bulgarian Slavic liturgy with liturgy in the Greek language. Bulgarian culture was by this time too deeply rooted to be easily removed, and the Byzantine Empire, beset by the attacks… http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=119667&tocid=42727&query=ohrid&ct=eb Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization Macedonian Vatreshna Makedonska-Revolutsionna Organizatsiya , Bulgarian Vutreshnata Makedono-Odrinska Revolutsionna Organizatsiya secret revolutionary society that operated in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to make Macedonia an autonomous state but that later became an agent serving Bulgarian interests in Balkan politics. Founded in November 1893 at Resna under the leadership of Damyan Gruev, Gotse Delchev, and Yane Sandanski, IMRO adopted the slogan “Macedonia for the Macedonians” and a program… http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=43517&tocid=0&query=delchev&ct=eb Hmm there are too many "negators" ah....[8D] You don't like Britannica?OK here is an equally trusted encyclo The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. quote:But of course!You want proofs that are yours?No problemo...Go to Bitolia Historical Museum (Macedonia) and Ask for the inscription by Ivan Vadislav (1015-1018) - Samuil's nephew. [img]http://tribal.abv.bg/bitola/BITOLIA.GIF[/img] [img]http://knigite.abv.bg/mpr/documents/bitolskinadpis.jpg[/img] Translation: През година 6523 (1015-1016) от сътворението на света обнови се тази крепост, зидана и правена от Йоан, самодържец български, с помощта и с молитвите на пресветата владичица наша Богородица и чрез застъпничеството на дванадесетте и на върховните апостоли. Тази крепост бе направена за убежище и за спасение и за живота на българите. Започната беше крепостта Битоля през месец октомври в 20-и ден, а се завърши в месец... края. Този самодържец беше българин по род, внук на Никола и на Рипсимия благоверните, син на Аарон, който е брат на Самуил, царя самодържавен, и които двамата разбиха в Щипон (Ихтиман) гръцката войска на цар Василий, където бе взето злато... , а този в... цар разбит биде от цар Василий в година 6522 (1014) от сътворението на света в Ключ и почина в края на лятото. Надписът е изписан върху каменна плоча, употребена вторично като строителен материял при изграждането на джамия в Битоля. The inscription narrates about the construction of Bitola's citadel carried out by King Joan Vladislav (or Ivan Vladislav) - the last member of King Samuel's dynasty. It provides us with an opportunity to settle what nationality Samuel, his brothers and successors considered themselves belonging to, what kind of kingdom they ruled and what the populace of the state was. Plainly and clearly, as if foreseeing the forgeries certain "scholars" would later engage in, Joan Vladislav proudly states that he is "a Bulgarian by birth", a Bulgarian king, and that Bitola's citadel was built for "the salvation of the Bulgarians". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posts restored! ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` |
| Misirkov | ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA, 9th edition, 1897: "...The official titles recorded by Ibn Fadlвn are those in use amongst the TATAR NATIONS of that age, whether Huns, BULGARIANS, Turks, or Mongols... ...There were Khazars and Kara (black) Khazars. The "Khazars" were fair-skinned, black-haired, and of a remarkable beauty and stature; their women indeed were sought as wives equally at Byzantium and Baghdad; while the "Kara Khazars" were ugly, short, and were reported by the Arabs almost as dark as Indians. The latter were indubitably the Ugrian nomads of the steppe, akin to the Tartar invaders of Europe, Huns, Bulgarians, and Hungarians, who filled the armies and convoyed the caravans of the ruling caste." |
| Ceki | Do you know how was byzantine empire named? Roman empire. They thought they were descendants of roman empire, so that is why they named it Roman. The language was until 6th century latin. The term byzantine is quite new, it developed in 19th century. The "byzantians" called themself romanians untill the fall of Carigrad. They thought they were romans. By that they wanted to get right to claim teritory of roman empire and to play the role of Meditteranean super power. Also Moscow was called third Rome, cos they wanted to claim right to church and territory of "byzaninian" empire. Even german emnpire was called holly roman empire, cos they also wanted to continue the tradition of roman empire and by that they also wanted to extend the age of their own empires. And that is exact reason why Samoil and his kingdom was named bulgarian. Samoil and bulgarians had so much in common as did "byzaninians" and romans. And by the way, in 10th century, nationality had no meaning as it has it today, sorry to disapoint you here. But i guess you dont know that. Now it is up to you, either you continue to act as a 5 years child and do things you do, or take some time, read, and than spread to the world the truth. It is up to you only. You have to look in yourself and ask yourself, why are you doing this. Why are you making balkan a miserable place to live? |
| marko_polog | To all the confused individuals that want to know who Tito and his cronies really were. Part 1 By Sasha Uzunov The second of August 2003 marks the centenary of the Ilinden Uprising, an unsuccessful attempt to free Macedonia of five hundred years of Turkish Ottoman occupation. Despite being a failure, many historians regard the rebellion as laying the foundations of a future independent Macedonian nation-state. Another event with significant importance, though not given as much attention as Ilinden, is the controversial Battle of Srem. Last January marked the 58 anniversary of the controversial battle of Srem in northwest Serbia. Thousands of Macedonian Partizans were sacrificed against retreating Germans at the Srem Front during the last days of World War Two. Some have argued that Srem represents Macedonia's betrayal by Yugoslav Communist ruler, Josip Broz Tito, and the sabotage of the movement for an independent and unified Macedonia. In 1913, a decade after Ilinden, the Ottoman Turks were eventually kicked out of Macedonia, but unfortunately for the Macedonians, their nation was divided amongst Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. At the end of World War I, Albania received a slice--albeit a small piece of Macedonia. In between the two World Wars, Macedonians in all four parts were denied the right to their own ethnic identity. So it came as no surprise that a movement for the reunification and independence of Macedonia sprung up during World War Two. Macedonians living under Serbo-Yugoslav occupation formed a Partizan movement, under the guidance of a united front consisting of communists and nationalists. Chento's photograph, from a book about him, written by his son. Ironically, on 2 August 1944, the People's Republic of Macedonia, the part known as Vardar Macedonia that had been under Serbian domination since 1913, was proclaimed at the ASNOM Conference (Anti-fascist Council for the National Liberation of Macedonia), held at the Prohor Pchinski monastery. ASNOM delegates elected Metodija Andonov-Chento [aka Cento], a non-communist Partizan from Prilep, as Macedonia's first president. Chento's goal was to create a reunified Macedonia, either fully independent or as a republic within the new communist federal Yugoslavia. He wanted to use the Macedonian Partizans for the liberation of Aegean and Pirin Macedonia, the areas under Greek and Bulgarian occupation respectively. But Tito, Svetozar Vukmanovic-Tempo, Montenegrin-Serb communist and Tito's envoy to Macedonia, and Lazar Kolisevski, the pro-Tito boss of the Macedonian Communist Party, were opposed to Chento's plan. They wanted the Partizan units for the Srem campaign, which began in October 1944. Chento and Tempo argued bitterly over the issue. Chento told Tempo: "the units must liberate Macedonia, and if they re sent to Serbia, what will the Macedonian people say?" Tempo responded: "there's no battle of survival here in Vardar Macedonia!" Chento added: "if there is no battle of survival here, there surely is one in Aegean and Pirin." Chento, together with Kuzman Josifoski-Pitu, Macedonian Communist hero, and General Mihajlo Apostolski, led the Partizan units into Aegean Macedonia on December 5, 1943. There, Chento's army engaged the Germans in heavy fighting. A few weeks later Chento arrived in Salonika. Then his army reached eastern Macedonia and fought the pro-Axis Bulgarian forces. The objective of the mission was to lay the foundation for a national uprising in all occupied parts of Macedonia. Three months later, Chento and the Partizan force returned for the ASNOM conference. Vera Aceva, female Partizan leader, described Chento's long march as an outstanding example of heroism. "Chento is very popular with the people." But in 1946, under the direction of Tito and Kolisevski, Chento was sentenced to 11 years hard labour for crimes against the people. Two of the judges in the show trial were Kole Casule [Chashule], who now promotes himself as a writer/philosopher, and Lazar Mojsov, later to become Yugoslav Foreign minister and now living in retirement in Belgrade, Serbia. In 1990 a Macedonian court overturned Chento's conviction and he was fully rehabilitated. No criminal proceedings were ever launched against Kolisevski, who died in peaceful retirement in 2000, or Casule and Mojsov. In 1993 ex-political prisoners lobbied the Public Prosecutors office to launch an investigation into a number of Macedonia's Communist ruling elite. But intense pressure from then ruling Social Democrats stopped the investigation. Staff from the Prosecutors office was instructed not to open up a can of historical worms. Stevce Pavlovski, then Macedonia's Public Prosecutor, said in interview in March 1993, that he would have to put "fifty per cent of Macedonia's old Communist in jail for treason. For that reason, no such investigation would take place." When the self-styled nationalist party VMRO-DPMNE came to power in 1998 it also kept quiet about the issue, especially when the son of Kole Casule, Slobodan, became Foreign minister. By September 1944, the Germans had retreated from Greece, Aegean, Vardar and Pirin Macedonia; and by October the British had entered Athens. The Germans were bottled-up in northeastern Yugoslavia, which is the Srem region in Serbia. Srem was seen as the last stand in the Balkans. Winston Churchill, British wartime Prime Minister, wanted to preserved British influence in Greece, including Aegean Macedonia. On 12 August, 1944, he warned Tito not to annex Aegean Macedonia, but conceded in a telegram to his Foreign Secretary, Anthony Eden, that "it will be difficult to stop." A Macedonian Partizan brigade was dispatched to Aegean but, according to Dusan Biber, Slovenian historian and former partisan, on "12 December, 1944, Marshal Tito gave strict orders to the Macedonian Headquarters not to permit the return of the Macedonian brigade to Greece, which would have caused an international scandal." This indicates Tito obeyed Churchill's directive. |
| marko_polog | Part 2 Macedonia had its own Partizan army (NOVM) but it was forcibly merged with Tito's National Liberation Army of Yugoslavia (NOVJ) in October 1944. Those who refused to serve with NOVJ were executed or imprisoned. Therefore, a distinction must be made between "Yugoslav" and Macedonian Partizans, as they were independent of each other until Tito's takeover of the latter. NOVJ was a 500,000 strong Partizan army, which consisted of 18 army corps (korpus) or 50 divisions. One hundred thousand were Serbs; the other 400,000 non-Serbs. NOVJ was made up of the following formations: the Macedonian 15th and 16th Army Corps, and the Bregalnica-Strumicko Corps; Montenegrin and Hercegovian 2nd Corps; Bosnian 3rd and 5th Corps; Croatian 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th and 11th Corps; and the Slovenian 7th and 9th Corps. The Serbs formed the First Army Group within NOVJ (1st and 12th Proletarian Corps, 13th and 14th Corps) The 400,000 non-Serbian Partizans are broken down into the following categories: total troops Macedonians 3 Corps 88,500 Montenegrin 1 Corps 29,500 Bosnians 2 Corps 59,000 Croats 5 Corps 147,500 Slovenians 2 Corps 59,000 Other (Hungarians, Albanians, Italians etc) 16,500 These statistics are based on the book Sremski Front 1944-45, by Milovan Dzelebdzic, Ljubivoje Pajovic and Dusan Uzelac, Beogradski Izdavacki Zavod, Belgrade, Serbia, 1979. The figure of 88,500 indicates that the Macedonians were a major part of NOVJ. NOVJ fought the Axis occupiers, Germany, Italy, and Bulgaria, and their collaborators, Serbian Chetniks, Croatian Ustashe, Slovenian Domobrans, and Albanian Ballists. The Srem campaign got underway in October 1944, and in January 1945 the Macedonian 15th Army Corps entered the fray. This means 29,500 Macedonians were sent to Srem. However, critics of Tito maintain the figure was higher and should include those diverted to Bosnia and Croatia to mop up Axis resistance, and those executed for refusing to serve at Srem. Only an impartial commission of inquiry can discover the true figure. No Macedonian governments--since independence from Yugoslavia in 1991--have responded to calls for such an inquiry. Mitre, 80, is a Macedonian Srem veteran now living in Melbourne. He said he was told that he would be marching to liberate Solun (Salonika[, Thessalonica]). "Instead, we were tricked, and sent to Srem to fight the retreating Germans. We were used as cannon fodder." Tase, 74, said he was in Skopje in 1944 working as a tailor's apprentice but was too young to go into the army. "I remember thousands of men singing and dancing like it was a wedding feast (svadba). They were euphoric about going to Solun. But the commanding officers that were mainly Serbs and pro-Yugoslav communist Macedonians rounded them up and sent them against their will to Srem. They were herded like cattle into train carriages." Jonce, another Srem veteran, begins to shake and tears roll down his face as he recalls his wartime experiences. "I was very lucky. A relative of mine, who knew the truth, told me to keep my mouth shut about going to Solun. Some of my friends, who put their hands up to go there, were taken away and shot. I still have nightmares about it." Milovan Djilas, Montenegrin Marxist and partisan officer, wrote in his memoirs, Wartime, that Aleksandar Rankovic-Leka, with Tito's approval, ran the Srem campaign. Rankovic, a Serb, was expelled from the Yugoslav Communist Party (SKJ) in 1966 for abusing his position as director of UDBa, the secret police. He also opposed the creation of an independent Macedonian Orthodox Church, and orchestrated a ruthless crackdown on ethnic Albanians in Kosovo in the early 1960s. According to Djilas, "Srem was the greatest and bloodiest battle our army (NOVJ) ever fought„ЈYet it was that battle, that breakthrough, which has been most criticised even from participants: essentially, that all the fighting was superfluous because the Germans were collapsing, and the new (communist) government was already established in Belgrade." Djilas, who later fell out of favor with Tito, was in favor of the Battle of Srem because it "aided the Yugoslav revolution" but the opportunity for Macedonian reunification was lost--probably for ever. Many are quick to point out that Tito was bound by the Big Three Agreement at Yalta not to encroach upon the British sphere of influence in Aegean Macedonia. However, during the Greek Civil War (1946-49), Tito supported the Aegean Macedonian Partizans (SNOF) against the British and US-backed Greek Monarchists. Therefore, Tito broke the Yalta agreement. Josif Stalin, Soviet dictator, also opposed Tito's intervention. Some historians have argued that Tito thwarted Macedonian reunification in 1944, because a strong Macedonia would have seceded from the Yugoslav federation; but advocated Macedonian reunification during the Greek Civil War in order to provoke a split with Stalin. The Yugoslav Communist leader used the Macedonian question as a pawn in his diplomatic game. Djilas points out that Tito used a similar trick with the Slovenians over the city of Trieste, which was in Italian hands. Tito threatened to annex Trieste for Slovenia, but was bluffing in order to squeeze concessions from the British and Americans after the Second World War. In 1949 Yugoslavia broke away from Moscow's orbit, and Britain and the US came to Tito's assistance. He, in return for western support, pulled out of the Greek Civil War and closed the border with Greece. There were instances of Macedonian border guards being forced to shoot ethnic Macedonia refugees and partisans from Aegean. Those who were not shot drowned themselves in Lake Prespa to avoid capture and certain death at the hands of the Greek Monarchist forces. But before the frontier was sealed, over 20,000 Aegean Macedonian children (deca begalci) managed to flee into the Vardar Macedonia and Eastern Europe. Some eventually found their way to Canada, and Australia. |
| Frederico | I'm gay! YEAAAAAH!!! |
| Thunder from down under | Pederiko , who ever translate that text must have been bigger bullshit artist than you |
| Thunder from down under | PEDERIKO i found some information of this bulgarian slut [img]http://www.novinite.com/media/images/2004-06/36112.jpg[/img] http://www.moeto.info/emilia-kurvata to bad you are gay |
| dejan | quote:omg.....you are so stupid, i don't think it's possible to continue this debate with you. I'm sorry tatar, i don't have the time to lower myself down to your level. It is just impossible to communicate with you, as you are unbelievably stupid. Keep on annoying us, and i'll kill you with words[:)] Imas pravo Ceki, grcite ne si ni anticki grci, lud narod, 'interbreeding with one another' Sreckja oni imale pomos od anglija da ni go zemaat solun, i deka nekoi grk mu go pusel na nekoi gaden anglicanec, sega ke pisuvate deka alexander bil grk. ama i na nas ke ni dojde den[;)] LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thunder, hahahahahaha. how can she become a slut? looks like a surfboard. hey freddy, want to know why bulgaria has a low unemployent percentage, because their most common workers are prostitutes[:0] |
| Ceki | Grcite se grci, samo so go imaat slicniot jazik, inace i tie se po krvta izmesani, ko sekoj drug narod na balkanov. Kulturno prevladaa so svojot jazik, i taka mnogu narodi vklucija vo svojot narod. Something for federico, THERE WAS FOUND A STONE WITH INSCRIPTION IN VODEN, THAT SAYS SAMOIL WAS BULGARIAN[:0] [img]http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianMinorities/images/stone.jpg[/img] [:0] let us see what it says: --------------------------------------------------------------------- In the city of Voden, I Samuil, faithul to Christ, Emperor of the Bulgars and Romans, Godsent emperor of all lands from Raska to Macedonia, Thessaly and Greece, nephew of the old Shishman who was Khan of the inhabitants of Trnovo, built this prayer home, to exist forever. The foundation were laid in the epoch of Jeremiah, who was the first Christian in Melnik. This tample was built for the sins and saving of the Bulgars from damned Satan, who comes from Constantinople. This tample was finished during the 14th year of my rule with the help of monk Gavril, who is the spiritial shepherd of the inhabitants of Meglen. Written during year 6497 from the foundation of the world (989 A.D), 5th Indiction. --------------------------------------------------------------------- And now the truth: --------------------------------------------------------------------- During September 1997 a Greek national with "Bulgarian identity" from Voden named Stoidis appeared in Sofia at the National Historical Museum and declared to the Director Bozidar Dimitrov that he has in his possession a stone inscription found in Voden (Edessa) during the reconstruction of a local church. The Director declared the inscription a fake made by Bulgarian nationalists in the 19th Century. Apparently the whole story was published in the Bulgarian daily Kontinent on "02.10.1997." --------------------------------------------------------------------- So i guess it was just a lie[8)] |
| Ceki | So since you are falsifiying everything, i also doubt Bitola inscription is authentic. Now we have to be extremly careful, when we see this kind of proofs. [img]http://knigite.abv.bg/mpr/documents/bitolskinadpis.jpg[/img] --------------------------------------------------------------------- During the year 6523 (1015-1016) from the beggining of the world this fortress is being renewed, built and made by Ioan, Bulgarian autocrator, with the help and prayers of our Virgin Mary and through the representation of the twelve and supreme apostles. This fortress was made as haven and deliverance of the lives of the Bulgarians. The fortress Bitolia was started during the month of October 20th and was completed in the month of... ending. This autocrator was Bulgarian by birth, nephew of Nikola and Ripsimia, son of Aaron, who is brother to Samuil, the tsar autocrator, with whom they smashed in Shtipon (Ihtiman) the Greek army of tsar Vasili, where they took gold..., and this tsar was destroyed by tsar Vasili in the year of 6522 (1014) from the beginning of the world in Kliuch and died at the end of the summer --------------------------------------------------------------------- I am almost sure this one is a fake aswel. |
| dejan | That is truely sad....that a country has to falisfy something, just so that they can have their own history:( I'm glad Macedonia has authentic history though:D |