| Thanks for Banning Me |
| Petrov |
Dear "friends",
I am really struck by your reactions.
You are panicking.
Do you really want to discuss Macedonian History?
I just want to open a dialogue.
The reason I joined the forum is that I read your view of history about Samuel. I was really shocked.
I posted some arguments and analyzed some facts written in historyofmacedonia.org .
Only Misirkov tried to answer in a proper way without directly insulting me. I want to discuss with such people. I would gladly reply to him if I do not get banned again.
To Misirkov:
I love to read your posts about Bolgars(Tatars) that live in Russia. I didnt knew that much about them.But what's the point to post so much info about them.The only connection between Bolgars and Bulgarians dates back to 7th century.We do not consider them in our ethnicity.They are just different people.
Bulgars that came and settled in the Balkans in 7th century were less than 3% of the population of the whole peninsula.Bulgarians do not look like Chinese or Mongols.
Please use some other source of inspiration.
And always tell what are your source and if possible - links.
To Ceki: FUCK YOU - I do not like to insult but I have to return.
Please stop insulting me. Just behave normally.Be a gentleman.
And BTW:
I never use Bulgarian sources when I post.
I just read the Macedonian point of view of history and see that things do not much.
I know that it hurts but it is the reality.
If you are interested or everyone else please see what the official worldwide spread history of Macedonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia
This encyclopedia is worldwide project to give neutral definitions of anything.Look at their policy of Neutral Point of View.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV
Anyone can edit the article but it won't be up too long if it is propaganda.It is on the controversial topic list and this topic is always checked for true contents.
Focus on these lines:
"Subjected to an intense process of "Serbianization" during the 1920s and 1930s, this part of Macedonia became a republic of Communist Yugoslavia (as the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) in 1946, with its capital at Skopje. After Yugoslavia's break with the Soviet Union in 1948, the Yugoslav leader Josip Broz Tito promoted the concept of a Macedonian nation as a means of severing the ties of the Slav population of Yugoslav Macedonia with (pro-Soviet) Bulgaria."
Most of you know that both Bulgaria and Yugoslavia were communistic states. But do you know that after 1948 Yugoslavia broke diplomatic relations with USSR.One more reason to promote the new nation is that Yugoslavia had only half of Macedonia. Tito wanted it all because thus Yugoslavia will gain access to Aegean sea.Promoting Macedonian nation and having the reason to unite it ,could give him arguments to pressure Greece and eventually Bulgaria for their parts of Macedonia.
It's all about politics and we all are victims. |
| Thunder from down under |
quote:
Originally posted by Petrov
Tito wanted it all because thus Yugoslavia will gain access to Aegean sea.Promoting Macedonian nation and having the reason to unite it ,could give him arguments to pressure Greece and eventually Bulgaria for their parts of Macedonia.
It's all about politics and we all are victims.
that is nonsense
titos dogs we shooting and jailing Macedonians who wanted to unite Macedonia, he was more worried for his catolics friend up in slovenia
for the battle of trieste
|
| Ceki |
Macedonians were even before tito thinking they are Macedonians, so shut up. He didnt made us up. Yes he was promoting our nation, just like any other in jugoslavija( albanians aswel). But he did for us much less then for Slovenians. Yes he wanted Soulun, but he was to weak to enable us to fight for Solun. We had everything prepared, we only needed world to aproove this, but tito was not man enoguh.
quote:
The reason I joined the forum is that I read your view of history about Samuel. I was really shocked.
OMG, if you would hear Slovenian version you would proably die then. They dont think Samoil and his state were bulgarian aswel. They say ( i will quote the name) "Samoil Macedonian state". And for inhabitants they dont say bulgarians or bulgarian slavs, but MACEDONIAN SLAVS. Slavs that inhabitated Macedonia and mixed with aborigins.
For year 1913 they say PARTITION OF MACEDONIA, not unification of bulgaria, greece and serbia.
For VMRO they see it as Macedonian organization.
quote:
But do you know that after 1948 Yugoslavia broke diplomatic relations with USSR.
But do you know, that before that, tito, stalin and bulgarians were talking to enable bulgaria to join jugoslavia? So that they would unite Macedonians and add Pirin to Macedonia!!! And because there came to this quarel, bulgaria never came into jugoslavia, and Macedonians were never united. And stalin recognized us as a nation!Do you know that?
Dont worry, people will open their eyes, they will see who we are and how much we fought in past for our Macedonia.
P.S. I really think you would insult me too, if i would be telling you that you dont exist. Am i wrong? |
| dejan |
quote:
Originally posted by Petrov
I am really struck by your reactions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia
I was even more shocked at some of the rude racist comments you had directed towards us.
Lele boze! That site is a free encyclopedia! Doesn't even look professional! omg! Population 4million! hahahha, right.....some online website........ |
| Ceki |
quote:
Population 4million!
To e populacija na celata regija Makedonija.
Inace enciklopedija kako ova ne e nisto profesionalno ili nesto strasno. Samo sto pokazvit kako poveke luge mislat. Ama ke se smeni i to[;)] |
| Petrov |
To Thunder: My sentences make more sense for sure.
"titos dogs we shooting and jailing Macedonians who wanted to unite Macedonia"
Why Tito would shoot and jail Macedonians if they want to unite Macedonia? Uniting Macedonia will increase Yugoslavia and thus Yugoslavia will gain access to the Aegean. Only good things for Tito. He can't get anything bad if Macedonia gets united.
So you should ask yourself why he shoot at Macedonians?
To Ceki: Yes Tito was weak because he had bad relations with USSR.
Bulgaria was the biggest USSR friend in those years and Greece was western coutry and would never give its territory to communists and all of the western countries will help Greece at any circumstances.
The Slovenian version is almost the same as yours, because textbooks and history in Slovenia were the same as for the whole Yugoslavia.
I just want you to look and read other sources than the Serbian Communistic View of history.
Tito and Stalin may have talked about Bulgaria joining Yugoslavia but bulgarians didn't want it as well as most of the rulling communists.
To Dejan: Tell me exactly which phrases you think are racist and I will answer whether I agree or not and will comment them. That's the way to discuss.
To Ceki: You say it doesnt look professional. Do not underestimate this because this is the primary source of information and definitions in the WWW. Most sites copy info from that page. The project is really huge. |
| Thunder from down under |
quote:
Originally posted by Petrov
To Thunder: My sentences make more sense for sure.
"titos dogs we shooting and jailing Macedonians who wanted to unite Macedonia"
Why Tito would shoot and jail Macedonians if they want to unite Macedonia? Uniting Macedonia will increase Yugoslavia and thus Yugoslavia will gain access to the Aegean. Only good things for Tito. He can't get anything bad if Macedonia gets united.
So you should ask yourself why he shoot at Macedonians?
No,
because the cunt had a vision for over 100 years ahead and he knew that the fake country yugoslavia would end up just like the first yugoslavia in pieces, and Macedonia was going to stay united if he took his army to gain back Solun, so he decide to get his army and go fight fot Trieste. The Macedonian generals that refuse to go to fight for Trieste and wanted to go to Solun were shot on the spot; he knew and planed everything that is happening even today (creating trouble for the orthodox religion) he was looking after the Catholics,
Also he positioned the Albanians in Macedonia at where they are for a reason, same in Kosovo
Believe me that he setup everything that is going on even today
|
| Ceki |
quote:
Why Tito would shoot and jail Macedonians if they want to unite Macedonia? Uniting Macedonia will increase Yugoslavia and thus Yugoslavia will gain access to the Aegean. Only good things for Tito. He can't get anything bad if Macedonia gets united.
So you should ask yourself why he shoot at Macedonians?
I guess you dont know much about jugoslavian history. Yes tito surpresed us because he was afraid we will never join jugoslavia, because we would have independent Macedonia, that would be almost as big as jugoslavia.
Yes he wanted to have Solun and sea, but only under his rule and under comunist rule. By that he first needed weak Macedonia.
The same goes for Slovenia, comunist were killing people that didnt agree with them all over jugoslavia.
quote:
The Slovenian version is almost the same as yours, because textbooks and history in Slovenia were the same as for the whole Yugoslavia.
I just want you to look and read other sources than the Serbian Communistic View of history.
Let me ask you something, which country first left jugoslavija? It was Slovenia, and why. Because it didnt agree with serbization of whole jugoslavia.
And you better dont say to Slovenians they are serbiazed, they will kill you.
quote:
Tito and Stalin may have talked about Bulgaria joining Yugoslavia but bulgarians didn't want it as well as most of the rulling communists.
Hehe, bulgaria was just a satelit, if stalin would said something, than that should had been done, or they would loose their lives.
quote:
You say it doesnt look professional. Do not underestimate this because this is the primary source of information and definitions in the WWW. Most sites copy info from that page. The project is really huge.
Yes, but still anyone can write that wants to write. And i bet bulgarians, serbians and greeks wrote our history.
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The long waves of penetration of the Slavs towards the end of the 7th century AD resulted in an entirely different situation - Macedonia acquired new inhabitants and became a Slav territory. The Sclavinia was their first form of social organization and structure. Then they fell under the Byzantine and Bulgarian empires. Following the fall of the Bulgarian Empire and the decline of the Byzantine Empire, Samuil, a skilled military leader and statesman, established the first Macedonian state (976-1018). Samuil's Empire comprised the whole of Macedonia, Thessaly, Epirus, Albania and the former coastal Sclaviniae of Duklja, Travunja, Zahumlje and the Neretva region, and also Serbia (t.e. Rashka) and a considerable part of Bulgaria. In this large empire, the most numerous subjects were the Macedonian Slavs, the Slavs in Greece and Peloponnesus, and only then Bulgarians, followed by Serbs, Croats and finally Romaioi (Byzantines), Albanians and Vlachs.
Heading this conglomeration of people was Tsar Samuil, who was crowned by the Roman Pope, because Samuil was in a constant conflict with the Byzantine Empire... This crowning gave an international character and recognition to Samuil's Empire. The attribute "Bulgarian" is explained by the practice of the Roman Pope to give a title to the crown which was identified with the territory of an already recognized empire, and Samuil's Empire extended over the territory of the Bulgarian Empire which has collapsed.
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His kingdom was labelled bulgarian, but if you only knew what else were byzantians doing. They were conspiring all over the Mediteran.
---Imortal words of greek visitor of this forum----------------------
When centuries later Samuil declares himself "King of the Bulgars",I would argue that he was refering (influenced by the Byzantine understanding)to himself as King of those who lived in the lands percieved as Bugarian (the lands not the people),but in truth if one is to compare Samuil and Han Asparuh one would quickly run out of common identifying caracteristics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| Ceki |
As a result of the Slav colonization of Macedonia certain radical ethnic and socio-economic changes took place. The Slavonic ethnos became dominant. The native inhabitants, the Macedonians, had continued to exist and, after the extinction of the ancient Macedonian state in the 2nd century BC at the hands of the Romans, as writes F. Papazoglou (6) "maintaining their ethnic characteristics, their language, their belief and customs' they were by the period of Slavonic colonization already perceptibly diluted" (7). Those, however, who had remained in their native homesteads gradually became assimilated by particular Slavonic tribes, in the process transmitting to the Slavs certain of their own customs, the Christian faith, culture and also the name of their fatherland and their identity, Macedonia and Macedonians. This had the effect that the Byzantine authors of the 8th century called the Slavicised districts "the Sklavinii" in Macedonia (8).
In the course of the 7th century the Slav tribes which had settled in Macedonia were already attempting, through an association of larger tribal leagues, to take Salonica, which had remained as the single Byzantine base on the territory of Macedonia, and to create their own Slav state in Macedonia. The first such league was created in the second decade of the 7th century with Price Hacon at its head. Byzantium, however, succeeded in rendering it impossible for the associated Macedonian Slav tribes to capture Salonica. In the second half of the 7th century the Slavs in Macedonia once more came together in a larger tribal league led by Rex ("King") Prebond. But this tribal league was also dispersed by Byzantium when Prebond was captured by deceit and put to death in 674. After his death the Macedonian Sklavinii were exposed to continual attacks from the Byzantine army; and yet, in spite of this, they were not subdued. In the course of the 8th century the Macedonian Sklavinii developed into anti-state formations, administered by their princes (archonts) and "kings" (reges). During this period the Sklavinii had at their disposal their own hoplites (heavily-armed infantrymen) (9).
With the strengthening of the Bulgarian state at the beginning of the 9th century, the Macedonian Sklavinii were also exposed to more frequent Bulgarian attacks, on account of which Byzantium continued and intensified its attacks along the River Struma. As a result of this by the mid-9th century the majority of the territory of Macedonia had fallen under Bulgarian rule. The Macedonians lost their independence but still retained a significant degree of internal self-government. Towards the close of the century the Bulgarian ruler Simeon included the whole of Macedonia within his frontiers.
However, a significant event in the history of Macedonia and the history of the Slavs in general took place in 863 when the distinguished Byzantine missionaries from Salonica, the brothers Sts. Cyril and Methodius and their disciples, set out for Moravia bearing with them the first books in a Slavonic language, written in the Glagolitic alphabet which they themselves had invented. It is of particular significance that this new form of writing was created on the basis of the phonetic principles of the Slavs in Macedonia (from the surroundings of Salonica) and that the first translations of the holy books were made into the language of the Macedonian Slavs. This was the fourth language, in addition to Hebrew, Greek and Latin, which was officially recognized by the Christian church.
The process of Christianisation was completed in Macedonia as early as the course of the second half of the 9th century. After the propagation of Sts. Cyril and Methodius' Moravian mission (885), St. Clement, after a brief sojourn in Pliska, was nominated a teacher in the region of Kutmichevica, which included the south-western Macedonian districts (Strumica Region), and the Ohrid Glagolitic literary school was established. Thanks to St. Clement and, after 893, St. Naum (who took over the role of teacher when St. Clement was named the first Slav archbishop), about 3,500 Slav teachers, clergy, writers and other literary figures emerged from the Ohrid literary school whose activity was crowned with the laying of sound foundations for the building-up of the Slavonic cultural, educational and ecclesiastical organization (10).
In the first half of the 10th century Bogomil teaching, led by the priest Bogomil, appeared in Macedonia and became active chiefly in the Veles and Prilep regions. Within a short period of time Bogomilism had grown into a large-scale popular movement. Neither the Bulgarian Czar Peter nor help from the Patriarchate of Constantinople was able to eradicate this newly-appeared heresy (11). In such circumstances the Slavs in Macedonia raised a rebellion towards the close of the 60's of the 10th century. At the head of the uprising were the sons of Prince Nikola, the comitopules David, Moses, Aaron and Samoil. The rebellion. which was against Bulgarian rule, was carried out successfully and as a result of this the foundations of a new Slav state in the Balkans, known as Samuil's Empire after the founder of the imperial dynasty were laid in 969. Its nucleus was the territory of the former "Bersite" Sklavinia where the capital. Prespa was situated. This town became not merely a state but also in ecclesiastical seat. Up to 976 the four brothers were jointly ruling the state whose basic nucleus was made up of Macedonian Sklavinii. After the destruction of the Bulgarian Empire in 971 Byzantium imposed its supreme authority on this state, which continued to exist but as a vassal state. An uprising against Byzantine rule took place in Macedonia and as a result of this it once again attained its independence. In the same year Samuil's brothers were killed and he became the sole monarch of the state. Within a short period of time Samuil had built up a body of military commanders and trained a large army. As a result of this, by the close of the 10th century, the entire territory of Macedonia (with the exception of Salonica), large parts of Bulgaria, Serbia, Duclia and Bosnia, a part of Dalmatia, part of Albania including Dyrrachium and a part of Greece had been included within the borders of this state. After their considerable territorial conquests Samuil was proclaimed Emperor in his capital of Prespa which was situated on the island of Achilleus in the lake of Prespa and was crowned by the Pope of Rome and thus his state was transformed into an empire and the church was elevated to the rank of an archbishopric (12).
State institutions were established in Samuil's state and vast state and ecclesiastical systems were formed as well as a standing army. All of this enabled Macedonia to institute the process of tribal integration into a people in the 10th century. And thus the tradition of Samuil, the founder of an imperial dynasty, became permanently linked to it.
Samuil's empire, which was a typical early-feudal state, existed up to the year 1018. In the course of Byzantine rule (11th and 12th centuries) there were two large-scale uprisings whose ultimate goal was the renewal of Samuil's Empire. These endeavors, however, bore no success.
Throughout the entire period of Byzantine rule the Macedonians continued to cherish their ethnic characteristics - their language, culture and customs. Even in Ohrid itself, the seat of the Archbishopric, the citizens of Ohrid. as the Greek Archbishop Theophilact himself declared, continued to communicate in their mother tongue which was for him a "barbarian" one. Likewise the name Macedonia continued to be used as is testified to in the letters of Theophilact of Ohrid himself, who stated to the recipients of the letters that he lived "within the narrow confines of our Macedonia" (13).
And in the following centuries, when the Macedonians had a variety of alien overlords, they remained as a separate Slavonic people. It is, for example, confirmed in the synodal acts of the Archbishopric of Ohrid that in the first half of the 13th century, when Macedonia came under the rule of the Despots of Epirus, the inhabitants of Macedonia continued to declare themselves as Macedonians (14). Such was the case too in the first half of the 14th century when the greater part of Macedonia came under Serbian rule. Even the Serbian ruler himself in his law-code (the Ravenica Transcript) is entitled "the bountiful and Christ-loving Macedonian Czar Stefan the sole ruler of the Serbian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Dalmatian, Albanian, Hungaro-vallachian and many other parts and lands" (15). Tzar Dushan, who was corronated in Skopje, is also designated both in the Sofia and the Zagreb transcripts of the Law-Code as "Macedonian Czar" (16). Such broader titling of Dushan was, as Ivan Snegarov says, a result of the fact that he had a large number of alien peoples under his rule (17).
After the collapse of Dushan's Empire towards the middle of the 14th century a number of independent feudal states and districts were created in the territory of Macedonia. The chief place among these was occupied by the Kingdom of Prilep, which was established in 1365 by King Volkasin (1365 - 71) and which, after his death, was administered by his son Marko (1371 - 1395), as an independent Macedonian ruler until 1385 and thereafter as a vassal of Ottoman Turkey. Smaller states were established by Uglesha (Volkasin's brother), by Constantine and other independent rulers (18). After the death of Marko and Constantine at the Battle of Rovine (1395), in which they took part as Ottoman Turkish vassals, the whole territory of Macedonia (with the exception of Salonica) came under direct Turkish Ottoman rule. |
| Pina |
quote:
Originally posted by Petrov
Dear "friends",
I am really struck by your reactions.
You are panicking.
Do you really want to discuss Macedonian History?
I just want to open a dialogue.
The reason I joined the forum is that I read your view of history about Samuel. I was really shocked.
I posted some arguments and analyzed some facts written in historyofmacedonia.org .
Only Misirkov tried to answer in a proper way without directly insulting me. I want to discuss with such people. I would gladly reply to him if I do not get banned again.
To Misirkov:
I love to read your posts about Bolgars(Tatars) that live in Russia. I didnt knew that much about them.But what's the point to post so much info about them.The only connection between Bolgars and Bulgarians dates back to 7th century.We do not consider them in our ethnicity.They are just different people.
Bulgars that came and settled in the Balkans in 7th century were less than 3% of the population of the whole peninsula.Bulgarians do not look like Chinese or Mongols.
Please use some other source of inspiration.
And always tell what are your source and if possible - links.
To Ceki: FUCK YOU - I do not like to insult but I have to return.
Please stop insulting me. Just behave normally.Be a gentleman.
And BTW:
I never use Bulgarian sources when I post.
I just read the Macedonian point of view of history and see that things do not much.
I know that it hurts but it is the reality.
If you are interested or everyone else please see what the official worldwide spread history of Macedonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia
This encyclopedia is worldwide project to give neutral definitions of anything.Look at their policy of Neutral Point of View.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV
Anyone can edit the article but it won't be up too long if it is propaganda.It is on the controversial topic list and this topic is always checked for true contents.
Focus on these lines:
"Subjected to an intense process of "Serbianization" during the 1920s and 1930s, this part of Macedonia became a republic of Communist Yugoslavia (as the Socialist Republic of Macedonia) in 1946, with its capital at Skopje. After Yugoslavia's break with the Soviet Union in 1948, the Yugoslav leader Josip Broz Tito promoted the concept of a Macedonian nation as a means of severing the ties of the Slav population of Yugoslav Macedonia with (pro-Soviet) Bulgaria."
Most of you know that both Bulgaria and Yugoslavia were communistic states. But do you know that after 1948 Yugoslavia broke diplomatic relations with USSR.One more reason to promote the new nation is that Yugoslavia had only half of Macedonia. Tito wanted it all because thus Yugoslavia will gain access to Aegean sea.Promoting Macedonian nation and having the reason to unite it ,could give him arguments to pressure Greece and eventually Bulgaria for their parts of Macedonia.
It's all about politics and we all are victims.
Macedonian nation was not promoted in 1948. Macedonian nation joined YU federation as all the other nations . At the time there were 5 nations therefore the armcoat of YU with 5 torches. Later on one more was added when they "promoted" Bosnian Muslims. In the YU constitution Macedonians were defined as a nation, same as Croats, Serbs, Slovenians,and the nation of Montenegro. |
| Christian |
Petrov ne ja tupi,odi na drugi forumi drvi go. |