Macedonians, Slavs, Bulgars
Macedonians, Slavs, Bulgars
Batbayan Are Macedonians Slavs? Is the Macedonian language a Slavic language? What % is the mixture of ancient Macedonians and Slavs? Are Bulgarians Slavs? I understand that there is no solid proof that Bulgarians are Slavs... the only possible link is the fact that the language is Slavic but that doesn't mean that the people are Slavs. Could somebody post a few EXACT notes on why Bulgarians are NOT Slavs? I also read somewhere that there is an award of 5,000,000 Euro to anyone who can Prove that Bulgarians are Slavs... as I am aware the award is still standing. Anyone know more on this?
concrete Batbayan,rekov deka ke se relaksiram malku od vakvi prazni muabeti , ama momce , za jazik me vleces. Makedonija i makedoncite si postojat mnogu dolgo , otprilika 250 pati podolgo od tvojata prepostavka. Ovie deset i nesto godini sto gi spomnuvas se samo noknata mora na nasite okolni sosedi i nivnite belosvetski mentori. Ednostavno eden problem za koj se pretpostavuvase deka e dobro i dlaboko zakopan posle balkanskite vojni , se pojavi odnenades ,niotkuda, sto bi rekol Den Deri, so rasturanjeto na Jugoslavija. Da bese sega 19...i nekoja , pak ke ni vrzea nekolku po nosot i ke napravea nov Bukurest ili taka nesto. E sega e golema demokratija , posebno vo Evropa , pa toa ke se pravi malku posuptilno. Batbayan,makedonci i Makedonija ima i ke gi ima. Toa si go znaes i ti i tvoite srpski i grcki prijateli , da ne gi spomnuvam novokomponiranite albanci. Da bese sprotivno , zosto bi se krevalo tolku prasina ,kolku samo trud dadovte, kolku pot i mastilo proleavte . Nema potreba da se rasfrlame so fakti , koga vie si gi imate i priznavate samo svoite sebicni tumacenja. Kako da razgovarame so nekogo koj pisuva: You are gypsies, animals, stealers of the biggest history of the world the Hellenic history. You have not any relation in the Macedonian history they are a pure Greek history. Ziva smeska !!!! Najverojatno e samo dve-tri generacii grk,tie se najbucni i najkrvolocni. Batbayan,a sto ti kako podanik na kralicata , si zapnal da menuvas nesto sto ne se menuva,uzivaj vo Canada, gledam sega i amerikancive navalile da stanat tvoi zemjaci , a ti si se zafatil so tolku nevazna problematika. Misirkov , fakti , koi ne se negovi, nikoj na Balkanov ne saka,verojatno i sam si zaklucil.Za uteha i vo Evropa e slicno.... Ova nema kraj!!!!
concrete Pak se vrakame na pocetokot. Sto zapnale Bugarive deka ne se od Azija ,pa ne se od Azija. Zarem tamu ne zivee ili ziveel pristoen narod. Abe kakva Makedonija , kakvi Hellen'ski gradovi-drzavi ,ligi itd. , Persija bila Amerika za niv togas. Toa sto Aleksandar ja smackal , tak normalno , zosto se vika : dojdoa divite gi isteraa pitomite. Toa si e od vek taka i ke si bide. I onie sto sega izigravaat kulturna Evropa,bea varvarite koi go sotrea Rim. A ovoj pred toa Kartagena. Zamisli ;Kartagena so golemo K i so nekoj kako Hanibal koj preku Alpite dosol duri Ante Portas so se slonovi (kakva logistika!!) , toa ti e kako da vidis divizion T-90-ki (125mm AT-11 ,LASER WARNING PACKAGE, LASER GUIDED WEAPON THERMAL SIGHT, ATGM JAMMER SYSTEM) pred vrata ,koj ne videl ne znae...gi seknal rimjanite , tie taman se poklonile da go precekaat koga toj malerozen Hanibal ti zakacil nekakva dizenterija utroto ,pa odlucil da si odi doma i slednata prolet da go sreduva Rim . Se utnal ,napravil greska vo cekori , zadocnil ,Scipion go izgorel pred toa . Da ne se slucilo taka koj znae kakvi knigi denes bi se citale naokolu. Da imal Aleksandar nekakva realna koncepcija , ne bi se setal do Indija , natamu navamu bez plan,detiste.....daj mu Falanga i ke se zaboravi....(Teba???) Ima edna kniska napisana od eden kineski general , Sun Zi :VESTINATA NA VOJUVANJETO nekade 500 godini pred Hrist , pogledajte ja ke se zaprepastite,steta sto Aleksandar ne ja cital , a mozel (336) , samo koga bi bil malku po informiran .Koj znae kakvi knigi denes bi se citale naokolu. Inaku mora da se priznae deka tatko mu Filip II imal koncepcija i kliker , ama zatoa go svitkale i toa na ovie prostori si ostanalo tradicija do den denesen. Pak nazad na denesnite ziteli na Bugarija: nikoj ne spori deka zboruvaat na jazik koj the present day politician and historians refer as Slavic one. Deka dosle nekakvi Tatari, Mongoli ili sto bile , isto taka ne e sporno ; kade e togas problemot ???? Denes , Bugarite si se bugari , Makedoncite makedonci,Grcite grci,Srbite Srbi itn.itn. ,ima li nekoj problem??? Ocigledno nekoj ima ..... A za Realnata Istorija ( kako ucitelka za idninata , he,he !!!) ???. Na zalost uste nikoj nikade ne ja ni zagrebal do sega.Kako poveke ucam , gledam deka nema , nitu imalo zelba za takvo nesto . Samo nekoi matni pisanija,avtorski opcii, nafrizirani zaklucoci. Tocno deka si postoi nauka , pa naucna metodologija , pa dokazi , ama se nekako ne mi stima , mogu skripi na site strani. Vistinata e sekogas kako perfektna muzika , nea ne i trebaat nikakvi ukrasi ,nitu advokati ,koga ke se pojavi site znaat deka toa e toa.Kako koga cel zivot jades trici i ne si svesten za toa do momentot dodeka ne probas leb. Moznostite koi sega tehnicki gi ima pravat ligi da ti potecat , ama toa ti e toa , Balkan bavca... nekoj moze se sekava na nea???? I sekogas ima samo edna vistina ........ Aj zdravo sega , imav dva tri dena slobodni pa se zabavuvavme ,interesen forum,intereni temi ,ke navrakam da zirnam kako ide.
graf Batbayan, ahhaha. who said i am mature ahahahha. We are sick of fool like yourself trying to question our belif . And who we are. We are macedonians. If you don't like it that tuff. go and read a MACEDONIAN history book.
Misirkov A bre barame informacii da mu daeme na bugarot ama nigde gi nema![:D] Sto kje bese toj merak za pari cccc[;)] Batbayam, ja procitav knigata i mozam da ti kazam deka e mnogu kvalitetno napisana.[8D] E sega ako pravis analiza na makedonskite argumenti za da sprotivstavis bugarski, neli treba da sednes i da ja procitas? Nie vasi knigi citame izvorno. Zaintrigiran sum od kazanoto -- sega Bugarite se "sloveni" od Ukraina, ne se azijatski narod?! Samiot velis: "An ethnos can't magicaly change to another ethnos. My point exactly!" Ako e ova tvoj point exactly, od kade togas vie Bugari? "I personally know that this is not true." Da ne bese tamu koga doadjale bugarskite ordi na Balkanot? "I agree with what you said about the Bulgars. Except for the the Asian origins. Many sources point them to Asia but many sources prove otherwise. The origin of the Huns(Bulgars) is from present day Ukraine, around sea of Azov." Pa vo toa e i problemot, ne se znae od kade dosle nomadite bugarski ni priblizno tocno kolku bile! Sepak kolku i da je menuvate istorijata, ne mozes da izbegas od vistinata - Bugarite se azijatski narod!
dejan Batbayan......listen ok. I'll tell you something, believe me if you want too, you want answers, i got something close to one. Here in Australia, the school that i go too, i know a Macedonian girl, and she looks exactly like she is descended from the Ptolemies, the dynasty that ruled Egypt. The thing is, she has brown eyes and brown hair. I know she comes from this village called Kuchevishte. As far as i know, that village is located in Skopska Cerna Gora, north west of Skopje. Also i've met other Macedonians in Australia who look like they can be Alexander's second cousin. Believe me if you want too, if you don't, it shows that you deny the truth when it is given to you. About Scythia, i have a history book with me, and it says Scythia in the area near the aral sea. Then it has Scythia around Romania, Ukraine. The only reason why people think Macedonians are Slavs, is because we parts of Slavic culture, and our alphabet, and our language is considered a Slavic one.
Misirkov VIDETE KAKO BUGARITE GI KOLAT "SLOVENITE" HRISTIJANI vo 9TI vek: http://www.kroraina.com/p_bulgar/menolog.jpg .
ozonce
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
VIDETE KAKO BUGARITE GI KOLAT "SLOVENITE" HRISTIJANI vo 9TI vek: http://www.kroraina.com/p_bulgar/menolog.jpg .
Misirkov, e ova e knigata koja ja barav, Monologija Vasilij II ako ja najdete ovaa slika vo boja davam 3 milioni evra [:D] A potoa kako shto veli Ile od Prilp zaedno so ushte edna slika vo vid na chestitka ke im ja ispratime na Bugarite za Kolede![8D][8D] So sporedba na tie dve sliki site tezi na Bugarite pagaat vo voda, i go dokazuvaat nivnoto vistinsko, tamu sho ti znam kakvo tatarsko potelko.
Christian bez nervozi graf, gleas coekot bara informacii za da lapne 5 milioni evra [:)]
highlander A ... [:D]
highlander Batbayan... . 500.000 5.000.000 EU .
dejan As far as i know....Bulgarians are tatars, or some other eastern asian tribe. And for if Macedonians are slavs, i would not know the exact answer......because slavs look like people who live in Poland, Ukraine, Russia and those other surrounding eastern european countries. But really, if the slavs did come down to southern europe, then i guess they would have had settled in Macedonia also. Even though we don't have the same appearance as Polish or Urkainian people. I once heard that Macedonians have also some Persian in them, that's why they have dark hair or dark eyes. Don't know if it's true, depends how many Macedonians took Persian wives along Alexander's campaigns. Macedonian language today, is a slavic language. Cyrillic alphabet was created in Macedonia afterall.
VMR0 http://vmro.proboards37.com/index.cgi check that forum out
highlander [^]
Batbayan Dejan, Tatars? You use the word Tatar as if it were an ethnos. It means "the conqured people". It was a word used by the Mongols. They refered to all nations conqured by them as Tatars. I don't understand in what context you are trying to use the word 'Tatar'. Please clarify. Also I would like to point out that Croats and Serbs have dark hair and dark eyes and still they call themselves Slavs. The Cyrillic alphabet was created in the land where present day Macedonia is situated. When the Cyrillic alphabet was created there was no such a country 'Macedonia' on the map of Europe. VMRO, I was actully looking for some exact clarifications... But never the less, thanks for the link. I came here looking for some possible answers and clarifications... I was hopeing that the forumer's here would be a little less confused than myself. Hope someone can post something more concrete, it would be greatly appriciated. In particular I am interested in finding out whether Macedonians are Slavs what are the arguments for and against. Also, I am interested in the arguments of why Bulgarians are not Slavs. I forgot to ask about that 5,000,000 Euro reward... any links on information on that?
dejan What are you implying? Macedonia was a creation through Tito's Yugoslavia? Are you like a Bulgarian in disguise or somethign?
noname
quote:
Originally posted by dejan
What are you implying? Macedonia was a creation through Tito's Yugoslavia? Are you like a Bulgarian in disguise or somethign?
He asked you a simple question: "Why tartars"?
SoVrSeN dosta anglisko bre:)))
Batbayan Dejan, My nationallity is not important to this discussion. I made the post to get some answers and possible clarifications. Once again the only topic that I am interested in at the moment is: "finding out whether Macedonians are Slavs, what are the arguments for and against. Also, I am interested in the arguments of why Bulgarians are not Slavs." I am still uncertain about the context in which you use the word 'Tatar'. Maybe you were confused about it's meaning? If you explain to me what thoughts you were trying to convey maybe it will help me be a little less confused. eagerly awaiting some responses on the actual discussion of this post...
Christian batka ti veke si imas odgovor na tvoite prasanja, i ne ja tupi veke. Ko so vika Sovrsen dosta anglisko be:)
graf Batbayan i think u have some issues from your childhood.
highlander No comment [img]http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2003/beauties/bulgaria1.jpg[/img] Miss Bulgaria 2004 [img]http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2003/contestants/bulgaria1.jpg[/img]
Misirkov E kako taka be no comment?! Ne li bi vospostavil ti dobri odnosi so doticnite "momiceta"? Pa tie najbrzo ja ucat makedonskata istorija. Prasaj go samo Risto Bombata.[;)]
highlander ... ... ... :))) ... ... ... . :)))
concrete Ej,narode zdravo na site , i steta sto pak naletuvam na vakva tema. Samo sto se trgnav od eden vakov muabet koj otide........ Nemojte i ovde toa. Tatari , Patagonci ,Persijanci , neznam sto ...... , ama kako mislite so svest i poimi od krajot od 20 i pocetokot na 21 vek da diskutirate za nesto od pred 2500 pa navamu godini , i toa posle dva tri golemi lonci za mesanje : makedonskata imperija>rimskata imperija>vizantija>krstonosnite vojni>turskoto vladeenje : i nekoj ke pocne da raskazuva sto e sto i koj e koj ???? Osven , ako nekoj od vas nema vremeplov , verojatno duri togas ke vidime deka vistinata e pofantasticna i od najfanasticnite pretpostavki , a se mislam deka isto ke bide i so idninata. Inaku se drugo e politika, a znaete kako e :taa sekogas laze ,a koga laze sekogas laze za pari!!!!
Batbayan I thought that this was a History forum... yet no one can provide me with some useful information. I don't understand why there have been so many replies and none of them are remotely related to the topic. If you cant answer the questions that I have, would you at least be able to point me to a link or any place where I can find more information about the 5,000,000 Euro? Graf, there is no doubt that I have issues from my childhood. Don't you?
concrete Are Macedonians Slavs? NAY ! Is the Macedonian language a Slavic language? NAY ! SURPRISINGLY, BUT PROBABLY IS OPPOSITE , THE SO CALLED SLAVIC LANGUAGES HAVE THEIR ROOTS IN ANCIENT MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE , OR LETS SAY SOME OTHER LANGUAGE , (OBVIOUSLY NOT HELLENIC) USED IN THIS AREA CCA 2500 YEARS B.C What % is the mixture of ancient Macedonians and Slavs? SLAVS ???? DID YOU FIND ANY SLAVS HERE????? WHO REALLY ARE THE SLAVS ???? FROM POINT OF LANGUAGE!!! Are Bulgarians Slavs? NORMALY , NAY ! THEY ARE, PRESENTLY, AS GENETIC MATERIAL , SAME AS ALL SURROUNDING REMAINING ALIVE POPULATION . FOR DETAILS : OFF LINE.
graf Batbayan, Do a search on the fourm, We have had questions like yours always put to us MACEDONIANS. AS I said before you must of had problems when you were a child. Did someone touch you in a special place
Batbayan Concrete, "I thought that this was a History forum... yet no one can provide me with some useful information". It seems that the questions have made you unhappy? Why?
Batbayan Graf, "AS I said before you must of had problems when you were a child. Did someone touch you in a special place" Wow the moderator of the Macedonian History forum... Not the most mature of jokes but I must admit I did laugh, wasn't expecting to find this type of humor at a history forum [:)] You appear to have a problem with me for some reason. I have searched the forum but nothing as specific as that, questions or answers.
concrete FOR DETAILS : OFF LINE , PLEASE , a navistina ne ne gledam zosto bi me napravile nesreken, jas nikogas ne sum imal problem so toa koj sum ili so toa koj e koj . Tie sto si imaat, si postavuvaat detski prasanja :ISTORISKI !!! Toa nekoj go narekuva: problem so indentitetot , ama se si mislam deka ke e nesto drugo ,epten ISTORISKO!!! Spomna nekoi 500.000 EU, kako,kade,bas dobro bi ni dosle da si go zavrsime proektot????
slasa
quote:
Originally posted by Batbayan
Are Macedonians Slavs? Is the Macedonian language a Slavic language? What % is the mixture of ancient Macedonians and Slavs? Are Bulgarians Slavs? I understand that there is no solid proof that Bulgarians are Slavs... the only possible link is the fact that the language is Slavic but that doesn't mean that the people are Slavs. Could somebody post a few EXACT notes on why Bulgarians are NOT Slavs? I also read somewhere that there is an award of 5,000,000 Euro to anyone who can Prove that Bulgarians are Slavs... as I am aware the award is still standing. Anyone know more on this?
ova go imam i porano postaveno ali pak ke go postavam : BUGARITE IMAAT TURKO-MONGOLSKO POTEKLO Spored renomiraniot bugarskiot istori~ar Prof. Vasil Zlatarski prvite etni~ki predci na dene{nata bugarska nacija bile ~etiri huno-bugarski ordi, ~ie poteklo e otkaj Himalaite. Vo "Imenikot na bugarskite hanovi", napi{an u{te vo 8. vek vo Bugarija, se tvrdi deka tataro-mongolskiot voda~ Atila-Bo`jiot kam{ik e pratatko na Bugarite. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ovoj i slednite dva teksta povtorno mu gi posvetuvam na ~i~ko \or|i Mladenov od Toronto). Makedonskata istoriografija gre{e{e {to ne im posveti pogolemo vnimanie na prezentiraweto na potekloto na Bugarite, poradi {to, kaj del od na{ata javnost se sozdade vakuum, t.e. nepoznanica vo odnos na vistinskite etni~ki predci na dene{nata bugarska nacija, a toa se turko-mongolskite Bugari (t.n. Prabugari). Makedonskite bugaromani, instruirani od Bugarija, sakaa da ja iskoristat vakvata sostojba i bez da spomnat nitu zbor za turko-mongolskoto poteklo na Bugarite, se obidoa preku prika`uvawe bajki povrzani so 19. i po~. na 20. vek da gi ubeduvaat Makedoncite deka imale "bugarski etni~ki koreni."Bidej}i nitu eden od niv nema napi{ano ni{to za bugarskite koreni (koi spored niv se i ,,makedonski"), vo ovoj tekst }e go storime toa. Taka najlesno Makedoncite samite }e sfatat dali na{ata nacija ima bugarski etni~ki koreni ili ne. Logikata e ednostavana. Koj saka da doznae dali na{ite predci bile Bugari - neka se zapoznae so bugarskata etnogeneza, pa taka samiot najlesno }e sfati deka Makedoncite nemale nikakva etni~ka vrska so Bugarite. No, makedonskite bugaromani i ovde davaat potvrda za svojata uloga na klasi~ni jani~ari. Imeno, tie mo`ebi znaat po ne{to za makedonskata istorija (gledano niz bugarska prizma), no ako gi pra{ate za bugarskata istorija i etnogeneza, za turko-mongolskite bugarski hanovi, za nivniot nomadski `ivot vo Azija, za kowskata opa{ka kako niven prv simbol, za nivnite sredovekovni pusto{ewa na Makedonija i sl., }e vidite deka mnozinstvoto od niv nemaat poim od seto toa. Zna~i, se pravat Bugari (ili potomci na Bugarite), a nemaat poim koi bile Bugarite. Taka bilo i so jani~arite. Se nadevam deka od ovoj tekst }e nau~at barem ne{to. (PRA)BUGARITE NASTANALE OD ^ETIRI HUNO-BUGARSKI ORDI! Sega predlagam da go prosledime potekloto na (Pra)Bugarite, t.e. na prvite priznati etni~ki predci na dene{nata bugarska nacija i toa citiraj}i isklu~ivo bugarski i stranski izvori. Prika`uvaweto na nivnoto poteklo }e gi otrfli site zabludi deka nie Makedoncite imame bilo kakva etni~ka vrska so Bugarite. Najprvo da ka`eme deka terminot ,,Prabugari" e ve{ta~ki sozdaden od strana na bugarskata nauka. Imeno, t.n. Prabugari sebe si izvorno si se narekuvale Bugari, a ne Prabugari. Toa se vsu{nost vistinskite Bugari i kako takvi se deklarirale. Denes vo bugarskata nauka tie se nare~eni Prabugari, so cel da se pravi razlika pome|u niv i dene{nite Bugari vo nacionalna smisla na zborot. Me|utoa, se pogolem e pritisokot od sovremenite bugarski istori~ari ve{ta~kiot termin Prabugari da se isfrli od naukata i istiot da se zameni so adekvatniot termin Bugari. Vpro~em, nekoi bugarski istori~ari i vo minatoto za t.n. Prabugari go koristele terminot Bugari. Sepak, za da im zadovolime i na ednite i na drugite bugarski istori~ari, poradi faktot {to t.n. Prabugari (vistinskite Bugari) do{le od nivnata tatkovina Azija, predlagam vo ovoj tekst za niv da go koristime terminot Bugaro-azijati. Ova so cel da go zadr`ime vistinskiot termin za nivnoto etni~ko ime (Bugari namesto Prabugari), no i da go potencirame nivnoto geografsko poteklo (Azija, azijati), kako bi pravele razlika pome|u niv i dene{nite Bugari - pripadnici na sovremenata bugarska nacija. Pa, da vidime kone~no koi bile Bugarite (Bugaro-azijatite)? STARITE BUGARI - TATARI! ]e po~neme so citat od knigata (koja denes se koristi kako u~ili{no pomagalo vo bugarskite sredni u~ili{ta), pod naslov Grafi~na istorija na balkanskite narodi od bugarskiot istori~ar Evgeni Vladikov (Sofija, 1992 god.). Za potekloto na Bugarite vo podnaslovot Bugari Vladikov pi{uva: ,,Bugarite pripa|aat na ponovite narodi koi se doselile na Balkanskiot Poluostrov (...) Okolu 670 godina na severoistok od deltata na r. Dunav se pojavuvaat Prabugarite, koi se narod od turksko poteklo. Gi narekuvame Prabugari za da gi razlikuvame od dene{nite Bugari. Pratatkovina na Prabugarite e centralna Azija. Tie se pridvi`uvaat kon zapad i sozdavaat golem voenoplemenski sojuz nare~en Golema Bugarija,na ~elo so hanot Kubrat, koj gi zavzema zemjite pome|u Azovsko More i severen Kavkaz.Pod pritisok na Hazarite Golema Bugarija se raspa|a. Eden od sinovite na Kubrat prodol`uva na zapad i se naseluva kraj deltata na rekata Dunav. Toa e hanot Asparuh, koj so pomo{ na Slovenite, koi se naseleni po ramninite okolu dvata brega na dolniot tek na r. Dunav, uspeva da gi odzeme od Vizantija zemjite pome|u Stara Planina i Dunav i od Crno More do r.Timok.So potpi{uvawe na miroven dogovor vo 681g. Vizantija ja priznava novosozdadenata dr`ava Bugarija koja se protega pome|u Stara Planina i Karpatite - dr`ava vo koja e sozdadena od osum slovenski plemiwa na ~elo so Prabugarite..." Za azijatskoto (tursko, turksko ili tatarsko) etni~ko poteklo na Bugarite, postojat i drugi brojni svedo{tva i citati od razni avtori i publikacii, koi go potvrduvaat istoto. ]e navedeme nekoi od niv. Vo golemata Grolier multimedijalnata op{ta kompjuterska CD enciklopedija (objavena vo SAD, 1995 godina i preku Internet, dostapna do desetici milioni korisnici {irum svetot), vo podnaslovot Bugari pi{uva: ,,Bugarite se tursko pleme, koi se naselile na Balkanot od centralna Azija vo vtorata polovina na 7. vek. Tie gi pot~inile slovenskite plemiwa i go osnovale Prvoto Bugarsko carstvo vo 681 godina." Angliskiot patepisec Vilijam Makmajkl vo svojot patepis od negovata poseta na Bugarija vo 1818 godina (koj patepis denes e objaven vo deloto: Angliskite patepisci za Bugarija, Sofija, 1987) napi{al: ,,Starite Bugari se Tatari koi do{le vo Bugarija vo petti vek od bregovite na Volga." Vo neprocenlivo zna~ajnoto drevno istorisko delo pod naslov ,,Imenik na bugarskite hanovi" (napi{ano vo Bugarija vo dale~niot 8. vek) za tataro-mongolskiot voda~ Atila-bo`jiot kam{ik se veli deka e ,,pratatko na Bugarite". Toj vo ova delo se sre}ava pod imeto Avitolah, a kako negovi naslednici (od negoviot turkski rod Dulo) sleduvaat hanovite: Irnik (sin na Atila, koj na nekoi mesta se sre}ava i pod imeto Ernah, z.m.), Gostun, Kurt i Bezmer, za koi pi{uva deka, vo sklad so azijatskata tradicija, imale izbri~eni glavi. Pod imeto Kurt ovde se podrazbira bugarskiot han Kubrat, {to zna~i deka vo ovoj Imenik, Atila e smetan za direkten krven predok na hanot Kubrat i na Bugaro-azijatite. Da potsetam deka denes hanot Kubrat se smeta kako prviot etni~ki vladetel na dene{nata bugarska nacija, a gledame deka toj bil direkten krven potomok na tataro-mongolskiot voda~ Atila - bo`jiot kam{ik. (Pa, zarem Tataro-Mongolot Atila e prviot predok i na Makedoncite? Navistina se{to od na{ite bugaromani...). Inaku ,,Imenikot na bugarskite hanovi" e napi{an vo vremeto na hanot Asparuh, koj e eden od sinovite na han Kubrat, {to zna~i deka ovoj Imenik e napi{an od toga{ni dobri poznava~i na istorijata na Bugarite. (Podetalno za ova kaj: Prof. Dimitar Angelov: ,,Obrazuvane na blgarskata narodnost," Sofija 1971 g., i vo: ,,Hristomati po istori na Blgari," Sofija 1964 g.).Odime ponatamu. DRUGI SVEDO[TVA Vo Kratkata bugarska enciklopedija (Sofija, 1963, Prv tom,s.30),pi{uva: ,,So imeto Bugari se narekuvaat prabugarskite plemiwa, koi se od turksko poteklo i koi `iveat na sever od Crno More i Kavkaz, od Dnepar do Volga. Edna grupa od niv, na ~elo so Asparuh se preseluvaat na krajot od 7. vek vo severoisti~niot del od Balkanskiot Poluostrov." Vo Enciklopedijata na Jugoslavija (Zagreb, 1985), avtorot V. Vel, za potekloto na Bugarite pi{uva: ,,Zborot Bulgar nastanal od staroturskiot zbor bulgar (me{anec), {to bil naziv za edno od turko-tatarskite plemiwa." Vo Opca enciklopedija jugoslavenskog leksikografskog zavoda (Zagreb, 1977, tom I. str. 715) za Bugarite pi{uva: ,,Bugarite imeto go dobile od tatarskiot narod Bugari koi se naselile na Balkanot vo 7. vek i gi pokorile Slovenite." Vo deloto ,,Istorija na ju`nite i na zapadnite Sloveni" (Moskva, 1969 g.), za Bugarite pi{uva: ,,Vo vtorata polovina na 7. vek, se pojavile turskite plemiwa, dojdeni od severnoto Crnomorie. Za razlika od dene{nite Bugari, vo literaturata nivniot naziv e Protobugari." Vo knigata Obrazuvane na blgarskata narodnost od Prof. Dimitar Angelov (Sofija, 1971), na str. 116 i 117, tvrdi deka ve}e e definitivno utvrdeno etni~koto poteklo na Bugarite. Ovde toj pi{uva: ,,Uspesite postignati vo oblasta na lingvistikata i otkrivaweto na nekoi pismeni pametnici, vo koi se sre}avaat prabugarski zborovi, postepeno go formiraat sfa}aweto deka prabugarskiot etnos spa|al vo semejstvoto na turkojazi~nite plemiwa i plemenski grupi, kako na primer: Huni, Oguzi, Ujguri, Hazari, Pe~enezi, Kumani i drugi... Stojali{teto deka Prabugarite za vreme na svoeto doa|awe na Balkanot bile turko-jazi~en narod ve}e mo`e da se smeta deka e nepobitno doka`ano... Eden od najbliskite jazici na odamna is~eznatiot prabugarski jazik e jazikot na sovremenite ^uva{i. Za bliskata vrska pome|u Prabugarite i ^uva{ite svedo~at i etnografskite prou~uvawa, napraveni vo posledno vreme." Vo Historia slowian poludnio wych i zachodnich (Warszawa, 1977 g.), za Bugarite pi{uva: ,,Protobugarite i drugite turski narodi bile sto~ari, a se zanimavale i so zemjodelstvo i sto~arstvo." Eden od najpoznatite bugarski istori~ari Vasil Zlatarski, vo svoeto delo Istorija na b'lgarskata d'r`ava prez srednite vekove (tom I, Sofija, 1971), na str. 55, pi{uva: "Prvata istorija na Bugarite nesomneno treba da ja barame vo istorijata na onie sredno-azijatski turski narodi, koi se poznati pod op{toto ime Huni..." Ovde posebno sakam da potenciram deka prof. Zlatarski go upotrebuva terminot turski, a ne turkski. Vo prodol`enie na svojata kniga (str. 153) prof. Zlatarski tvrdi deka Bugarite nastanale od ~etiri ordi. Ovoj profesor gi dava i imiwata na ovie ~etiri, kako {to gi narekuva samiot: ,,huno-bugarski ordi", koi go so~inuvale etni~koto jadro na toga{nite Bugari. Imiwata na ovie bugarski ordi se: Kupi-Bulgar, Du~i-Bulkar, Olhontor-B'lkar i ^'dar-Bolkar. Ovde ne mo`am da se vozdr`am, a da ne zapra{am: Zarem od ovie ordi nastanala dene{nata makedonska nacija? Spored makedonskite bugaromani, odgovorot e pozitiven! Poradi toa ni ostanuva da konstatirame deka kakva {to e brojnosta na makedonskite bugaromani kaj nas, tamam ima za sekogo po edna orda (samo prvo }e treba da se dogovorat koj od koja od ovie ordi vodi direktno poteklo). Vo knigata Formirane na staroblgarskata kultura (Sofija, 1977) od avtorot Stan~o Vaklinov, na str. 15, pi{uva: ,,Prabugarite bile turkojazi~en narod, ~ija pratatkovina se nao|a na dale~niot istok, vo srceto na Azija... Prabugarite pretstavuvale edna celina so mongolskite i manxurskite plemiwa." Na stranica 34, Vaklinov pi{uva: ,,Rodot na Asparuh i rodot na Irnik (sin na tataro-mongolskiot voda~ Atila-Bo`jiot kam{ik, z.m.) poteknuvaat od drevniot turkski rod Dulo,koj vo istorijata na Turkite ostavil mnogu pokolenija na proslaveni voda~i." Vo knigata Istori na Blgari (Prv tom, Sofija
noname
quote:
Originally posted by highlander
No comment [img]http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2003/beauties/bulgaria1.jpg[/img] Miss Bulgaria 2004 [img]http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2003/contestants/bulgaria1.jpg[/img]
2004: http://life.dir.bg/newlife/stars/stars.php?sid=1207#stars comments?
Misirkov Dvata komentari pod slikata na ISTINSKATA mis Bugarija: "abe kvo da govorim...to ima li smisal da se kaze nesto??? Stom tati e platil ili njakoi pich deto ja e ebal e platil estestveno che shte ja izberat za miss vapreki che tja e tolkova bezlichna i grozna. e grozna e malko presileno no tja prosto ne e za miss. v bulgarija ima tolkova po krasivi i elegantni momicheta. blagodareni na zenito i na taja gergana horata po sveta si misljat che vsichki balgarki sa takiva bezlichni i maloumni A TOVA NE E TAKA I NIE SI GO ZNAEM" "strashna rabota goliama novina niama shto ednata kifla zavela drugata kifla na shoping....kolko po seriozni neshta se slu4vat.... u4udvam se 4e seriozen sait kato dir ni zanimava s mustresite postoianno i ne prekasnato..." [8D]
Batbayan Salsa, interesting post. I don't understand why you posted that information. Please re-read what my initial questions were. Are Macedonians Slavs? I know that the world considers Macedonian a slavic language. Why are the ppl not Slavs if they speak a Slavic language? Or are they? As far as the information that you proivided on the Bulgars, that is information on their roots. The present day arguments of them becomeing Slavs or being melted into the Slavic ppl begin after 800-900AD. I am simply interested on information about why they are NOT Slavs. I already have enough information on their origins and roots. This post has 20 replies and still no one can help me clarify those questions that I have. Maybe the problem is that you did not read my post... but simply the title of it? I am ancious to know the perspective of a Macedonian on at least the questions regarding Macedonia and its people. Remember, the present day politician and historians refer to the population in the balkans as Slavs from around the years of 800AD and 900AD. Please help asnwer that issue. I already have enough information on the ancient Macedonians and the ancient Bulgars. Please focus on the timeframe of around 600AD to 1000AD.
concrete E Batbayan,Batbayan , koj i da si. Koj toa moze da ti go kaze.Koj do sega sednal da napravi realna analiza,koj primenil vistinska nauka i seta mozna raspoloziva tehnologija da ja rekonstruira vistinskata istorija , nasa ili na bilo koj drug. Taa sekogas e takva kakva sto i treba na dnevnata politikata i momentnite interesi ili tirazite na naucno popularnite spisanija. So eden zbor : kakva tebe ti treba takva ke si bide . Sto postavuvas naivni???? provokativni !!! prasanja, (izvini me ako se e iskreno). Kakva moze da bide idninata na Makedonija i makedoncite (za koja velis deka si zagrizen). Ako toa sto se slucuva sega se slucuvalo sekogas ke si bide takva , kakva sto si bila i togas i sega , a verojatno i vo idnina. Samiot velis :the present day politician and historians refer to the population in the balkans as Slavs ,O.K ,a na osnova na sto ziti Boga , go velat toa , na kompilaciite napisani od isti takvi kako niv , samo 50,100,1000 ili 2000 godini postari???? I matematikata e dogovor ,( ne mislam na smetanjeto) i se bazira na nesto sto se zema zdravo za gotovo , a kamo li nekakva istorija koja mozes da si ja modeliras i tumacis kako sakas , da si ja pravis kakva ti treba ili ke ti ja poracaat. Please focus on the timeframe of around 600AD to 1000AD : se fokusirav i sto sega ??? zoom view out or in???? Kako ke ja redime puzlata????
Batbayan The language spoken in Bulgaria is a Slavic one - The language spoken in Macedonia is a Slavic one, that is the view of the world. This is the only reason why Macedonians as well as Bulgarians fall into the Slav category. Baseing the ethnos of people solely on the language they speak is not correct. The language is definitely an element to assist in such a decision but it is not and can not be taken as the one single and deciding factor. I am aware that there is no one single source online that can provide exact and precise answers on the Slav questions simply because of past propaganda. The reason(s) why asked them here: - regarding the 5,000,000 - I noticed that piece of information was provoked by Macedonians on other sites. No actual information on who offers it, how to obtain it etc. were posted. - the questions about Macedonians and Slavs - I figured it is a Macedonian History forum so maybe you would be able to provide me with direct arguments on that topic. - regarding Bulgarians and Slavs - I have noticed statements saying that Bulgarians are NOT Slavs on this forum as well as other Macedonian sites. I was hoping to actually get some explanation on exactly why Bulgarians are NOT Slavs. Once again, I have information on ancient Bulgars as well as ancient Macedons. Why did the Bulgars maintain their original roots and why didn't they melt in the Slavic sea? Same question with regards to Macedons.
Misirkov I have the information you are asking about, but is in a book. It is called: "The Descendants of Alexander the Great of Macedon". A lot of interesting info there. Perhaps if you buy it and read it, and have some questions answered. http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/donski.html There are other books, but it is a good start. Also you say: "The present day arguments of them becomeing Slavs or being melted into the Slavic ppl begin after 800-900AD." As far as your question why the Bulgarians are not Slavs -- it is illogical as you cannot prove a negative! If you have info about their origins from Asia, you know that one ethnos cannot become another. So Bulgarians are Bulgarians and that's that. Do you want to say that the Bulgarians got assimilated by the "Slavs" in the Balkans?
Batbayan Misirkov, I appriciate the link. I assume you have read the book. If you could simply quote the passages regarding the Slav questions that I have, I would appriciate that much more. "As far as your question why the Bulgarians are not Slavs -- it is illogical as you cannot prove a negative! If you have info about their origins from Asia, you know that one ethnos cannot become another. So Bulgarians are Bulgarians and that's that. Do you want to say that the Bulgarians got assimilated by the "Slavs" in the Balkans?" An ethnos can't magicaly change to another ethnos. My point exactly! The arguments given by some historians are that the Bulgars came to the balkans with a significantly small amount of people and got assimilated by the Slavs. I personally know that this is not true. I have found sources saying that the Bulgars were a number close to 10 times more than the number mentioned by those historians saying that Bulgars got assimilated by Slavs. I agree with what you said about the Bulgars. Except for the the Asian origins. Many sources point them to Asia but many sources prove otherwise. The origin of the Huns(Bulgars) is from present day Ukraine, around sea of Azov. Also I was actually looking for someone to actually post more detailed and exact information and not simply "one ethnos cannot become another". Altough I agree with that, it does me no good to clarify those questions.
highlander
quote:
ako ja najdete ovaa slika vo boja davam 3 milioni evra
[:D]
graf Christian, ova Batbayan brata tupajca na celo ahahahah
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
A bre barame informacii da mu daeme na bugarot ama nigde gi nema!
You don't know your own history? If that is so, why do you even bother poluting this post with nonsense? If am wrong I would greatly appriciate it if you provide me with answers to my questions. I would like to enlighten myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Batbayam, ja procitav knigata i mozam da ti kazam deka e mnogu kvalitetno napisana.[8D] E sega ako pravis analiza na makedonskite argumenti za da sprotivstavis bugarski, neli treba da sednes i da ja procitas? Nie vasi knigi citame izvorno.
I am not trying to argue anything. I was simply looking for answers to my questions. Considering that they are about Macedonian heritage and this a Macedonian history forum, I presumed that you would be able to provide me with the answers. I guess I was wrong. Also, please note that Bulgaria never came into the questions with regards to Macedonia. I asked questions separately and was looking for separate answers as I mentioned above.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Zaintrigiran sum od kazanoto -- sega Bugarite se "sloveni" od Ukraina, ne se azijatski narod?! Samiot velis: "An ethnos can't magicaly change to another ethnos. My point exactly!" Ako e ova tvoj point exactly, od kade togas vie Bugari?
Please READ and READ stop posting nonsense. If you just read what I asked and wrote; you wouldn't be so "unhappy" about my questions. I NEVER said that the Bulgars are "sloveni". There were no Slavs in that area at that time. If you think that the Scythians or the King Scythians as refered to by Priscus are an Asiatic tribe then feel free to equate Bulgars with an Asiatic tribe.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Da ne bese tamu koga doadjale bugarskite ordi na Balkanot?
Ahh there is some of that humor that I was speaking about earlier. The humor of a man that is NOT stupid but simply confused.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Pa vo toa e i problemot, ne se znae od kade dosle nomadite bugarski ni priblizno tocno kolku bile! Sepak kolku i da je menuvate istorijata, ne mozes da izbegas od vistinata - Bugarite se azijatski narod!
Again, if you consider the Scythians to be Asiatic then feel free to consider that the roots of the Bulgars are as the Scythians Asiatic. PLEASE read! Read what the purpose of this post is. I am looking for answers to my questions and ONLY those questions that I have asked. I do not understand why you think that I am trying to propagate Bulgaria/Macedonia issues. Read the questions, I am simply looking for answers to the questions. So far you have strayed off topic with every reply that you have made. Is no one here able to answer those questions? I must say I am still questioning things and now I wonder what the truth is; if I can't get historical answers at a Macedonia history forum about it's people. It is one thing to say it but it is another to actually explain why it is so. Misirkov, you say a whole lot. You are so quick to discuss the history of others but how can I take you seriously when you can't answer a few simple questions about your own history?
ozonce
quote:
Originally posted by highlander
[:D]
Imalo imalo...
Great_Macedonian dejan spot on bro. Listen bulgar.... why are you asking us what bulgarians are? cant you go to a bulgarian forum and ask them what they are? or have you already done that and it seems bulgarians dont know what they are?? As for macedonians.. we are macedonians.. we are decendants of the ancient macedonians, maybe some slavs mixed with us maybe they didnt.. who can prove this? nobody... your right about one thing though.. people tend to asume that if you speak a slavic language then you must be slav. This isnt true though.. the whole "slavic language" issue has been taken out of context. Its often stated that today's macedonian language is a slavic language!??... but maybe it isnt, ive heard that its a reformated version of ancient macedonian. However though, nobody can prove anything as a fact, balkan history is too complex. Let me just use the irish people as an example. Just because they all speak english nowdays, they seem to be forgetting their native geylic language, does it mean they are english just because they speak english? no.. they are still irish. So maybe the ancient macedonian language died out and todays macedonian language is a result of ancient macedonian words mixed with words of other cultures that settled in macedonia!!? who knows for sure? nobody. As for the bulgarians, i believe they are a mixture of mongolian tribes brought to europe by Ghangis khan but speak a slavic language because they adopted it from the slavs that settled in the area.
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by dejan
The only reason why people think Macedonians are Slavs, is because we parts of Slavic culture, and our alphabet, and our language is considered a Slavic one.
I think you are on the right track. I am looking for something more "explanatory" tough. Here in Canada, for the past decade that I've spent I have friends from most of the Eastern European countries (including Macedonians). One of my best friends is a Russian with black hair, brown eyes and dark skin. Another friend from the Ukraine has brown hair and brown eyes. I know several Serbs and none of them have blue eyes or blond hair.
Batbayan Seriously, what is it with you peolple? You know how to read, right? If you simply read the thread I wouldn't have to correct such empty responses; but never the less here we go:
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Listen bulgar.... why are you asking us what bulgarians are? cant you go to a bulgarian forum and ask them what they are? or have you already done that and it seems bulgarians dont know what they are??
I am asking you becasue I have heard many Macedonians argue that Bulgars are not Slavs. I have seen many posts on this forum as well as others and Macedonians repetetevly say "Bulgars are not Slavs". You seem to know about this so I simply enquired to see if you actually have a true argument for this. If you do I would love to hear it because I think it would help me enlighten myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
people tend to asume that if you speak a slavic language then you must be slav. This isnt true though.. the whole "slavic language" issue has been taken out of context. Its often stated that today's macedonian language is a slavic language!??... but maybe it isnt, ive heard that its a reformated version of ancient macedonian. However though, nobody can prove anything as a fact, balkan history is too complex. Let me just use the irish people as an example. Just because they all speak english nowdays, they seem to be forgetting their native geylic language, does it mean they are english just because they speak english? no.. they are still irish. So maybe the ancient macedonian language died out and todays macedonian language is a result of ancient macedonian words mixed with words of other cultures that settled in macedonia!!? who knows for sure? nobody.
That is very good what you think... but the world seems to think otherwise (with regards to the balkans at least). If you make such statements you must be able to defend them with reasons, arguements for and agaisnt. Otherwise, there is no credibility and you are simply a person who had a dream.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
As for the bulgarians, i believe they are a mixture of mongolian tribes brought to europe by Ghangis khan but speak a slavic language because they adopted it from the slavs that settled in the area.
I am not asking you to tell me the history of Bulgars. I am simply interested in why Bulgars are NOT Slavs... since you seem to know so much about that topic.
Great_Macedonian Batbayan, listen man. The truth is that history is a myth. Who do you think preaches to the world about history?? huh? the world is run by anglo-saxon americans, jews and greatly influenced by greeks. The world is run by these cultures. So the history we are tought must suit their point of views. And for the answer to why the world is nowdays stating that "all the balkan countries are slavic, with the exception of greece, and that albanians have also nothing to do with ancient illirians" is infact the way greece wants the world to view balkan history. Greece does this so that they can claim everything from balkan history from ancient times onwards, as their own history! We have already witnessed how they have assimilated thousands of macedonians and they refuse to recognise us as macedonians. This is because if the truth ever comes out about the macedonians, then greece will no longer be able to steel macedonia's and the balkan history. The answer lies in 1829 when greece became independant. In the last 200 years balkan history has been seriously "modified" and re-written, in order to make greece more powerfull and to allow it to lay claim to ancient macedonia, Thrace and the whole of the balkans. I cannot prove to you if bulgarians are slavs, and even if they are it is impossible for all of them to be slavs, because too many cultures have inter-mixed with eachother in that part of europe.
highlander . The Bulgars, a Central Asian Turkic tribe, merged with the local Slavic inhabitants in the late 7th century to form the first Bulgarian state. In succeeding centuries, Bulgaria struggled with the Byzantine Empire to assert its place in the Balkans, but by the end of the 14th century the country was overrun by the Ottoman Turks. Northern Bulgaria attained autonomy in 1878 and all of Bulgaria became independent in 1908. Having fought on the losing side in both World Wars, Bulgaria fell within the Soviet sphere of influence and became a People's Republic in 1946. Communist domination ended in 1990, when Bulgaria held its first multiparty election since World War II and began the contentious process of moving toward political democracy and a market economy while combating inflation, unemployment, corruption, and crime. Today, reforms and democratization keep Bulgaria on a path toward eventual integration into the EU. The country joined NATO in 2004. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bu.html
Misirkov --------------------------------------------------------------------- "I am not asking you to tell me the history of Bulgars. I am simply interested in why Bulgars are NOT Slavs... since you seem to know so much about that topic." --------------------------------------------------------------------- What I am telling you is that knowling the history of the Bulgars will preclude you from asking such stupid questions. Bulgars are not "Slavs" period. Whay are they not Slavs? I don't know, fate perhaps? That's like saying why is gold not iron? Bugar - i se e mozno!
Batbayan Great_Macedonian, I do agree with some of your views. But, I came to this forum looking for answers on those specific topics. Highlanger, I don't see the point of what you have posted. It does not apply to the topic. It is simply a statement which you apperatnly are unable to elaborate on. Misirkov, come on! I must say I am a little disapointed.
quote:

What I am telling you is that knowling the history of the Bulgars will preclude you from asking such stupid questions. Bulgars are not "Slavs" period. Whay are they not Slavs? I don't know, fate perhaps? That's like saying why is gold not iron?
Istorichar so renome, I asumed that you will be able to provide an actual answer to those questions. "Bulgars are not 'Slavs' period", That statement does me no good. But then again you say that you don't know, so maybe I was depending on the wrong person to begin with. I asked this "stupid" question because Macedonians seem to preach all about how Bulgars are not Slavs. I simply wanted to see what you were basing the theory on. Here we are at a Macedonian history forum and all you people do is quote and tell me about Bulgarian history. I would understand if it was at least related to my initial question. I am still, definetly, interested in whether Macedonians are Slavs. Almost 50 replies and no one can provide me with a solid answer. All I have heard so far is idealistic guesses that are not based on anything historic. Once again, I don't see why my questions have upset you. I feel like I am not wanted here. [:)] Keep in mind that the only purpose of my post was to gain more knowledge and possibly a different perspective on those questions. I am wondering; How do you even get a title such as "Istorichar so renome" when you provide such answers "I don't know, fate perhaps?". Perhaps it was a typeo?
Misirkov --------------------------------------------------------------------- "...Macedonians seem to preach all about how Bulgars are not Slavs. I simply wanted to see what you were basing the theory on...." --------------------------------------------------------------------- I am sorry the answer does you no good, but I am under no obligation to enlighten you (or anyone else) about history. Especially not when you get entangled in "theories". The historical record fully shows the Bulgarians at odds with the group of people(s) called "Slavs". You are essentially asking who and what the Macedonians, but with a skewed lens (are they "Slavs"). Macedonians are Macedonians and as Macedonian I don't "preach", but speak of certainties. It is certain that Bulgarians are turkic people whose origins are in Central Asia (or beyond). You say you know that. So what it is that you don't understand, perhaps your theory that Macedonians are allegedly Bulgarian doesn't fit?
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov --------------------------------------------------------------------- What I am telling you is that knowling the history of the Bulgars will preclude you from asking such stupid questions. Bulgars are not "Slavs" period. Whay are they not Slavs? I don't know, fate perhaps? That's like saying why is gold not iron? Bugar - i se e mozno!
What I am telling you is that knowling the history of the Russians will preclude you from asking such stupid questions. Russians are not "Slavs" period. Whay are they not Slavs? I don't know, fate perhaps? That's like saying why is gold not iron? Radule - i se e mozno! ......... What I am telling you is that knowling the history of the Croations will preclude you from asking such stupid questions. Croats are not "Slavs" period. Whay are they not Slavs? I don't know, fate perhaps? That's like saying why is gold not iron? Donski - i se e mozno! ............ etc., etc.
Misirkov Unfortunatelly, the truth must hurt a lot, though there is no reason to be ashamed if you are not "slavic". Indeed, why do you feel so ashamed of the asiatic origin of the Bulgarians so that you ask the questions that you do? http://www.imninalu.net/Huns.htm "...The Bulgars were, or became, the main component of a larger ethnos known as Hunogurs or Onogurs, and were closely related to the Khazars. ...One of the most valuable documents regarding their early history is the "Church History" by Zachariah the Rhetor, written in Assyrian language (Syriac Aramaic) in the sixth century c.e., and describes the Caucasus as the "Huns' lands", listing thirteen peoples: Abdel, Alan, Avar, Avgar, Bagrasir, Bulgar, Dirmar, Hephtalit, Khazar, Kulas, Kutargar, Sabir and Sirurgur. Some of these peoples are not Huns, like the Alans and Avars (or the Hephtalites, unproperly called "White Huns"), others are tribes of a larger ethnos, like the Kutriguri, a branch of the Bulgars. He mentions also the Avnagur, who are clearly identifiable with the Hunogurs, and of whom Armenian records attest that they dwelled in the Caucasus. The texts also mention a people north of the Caucasus called the Unogundurs. The name Onghondor-blkar in the Armenian geography is a variant of the older Vh'ndur-bulgar in the History of Moses Horenaci and both terms are transcribed in Greek as Unogundur or Unogur. These are just two denominations of the same tribe, the Hunogurs or Onogurs. After the departure of the Huns for Central Europe, a group of Unogundurs occupied the plains of maritime Daghestan and became known to Egishe under the name Hajlandurs. Almost all chroniclers identify the Unogundurs with the original Bulgarians. Even the khan of the Great Bulgaria Kubrat was called "the ruler of the Unogundurs". WHY, O WHY, ARE BULGARIANS NOT "SLAVIC"?!?!?[?] P.S. "A spectacular epic, "Khan Asparukh" remains the most-attended film in Bulgaria of all time. The official statistics show that close to 11 million people saw the original three part version, and a little over 2 million saw the atrocious shorter cut with Bulgarian subtitles. This in a nation with a population of 8 million!" http://www.gotterdammerung.org/film/reviews/k/khan-asparukh.html
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Unfortunatelly, the truth must hurt a lot, though there is no reason to be ashamed if you are not "slavic". Indeed, why do you feel so ashamed of the asiatic origin of the Bulgarians so that you ask the questions that you do? http://www.imninalu.net/Huns.htm "...The Bulgars were, or became, the main component of a larger ethnos known as Hunogurs or Onogurs, and were closely related to the Khazars. ...One of the most valuable documents regarding their early history is the "Church History" by Zachariah the Rhetor, written in Assyrian language (Syriac Aramaic) in the sixth century c.e., and describes the Caucasus as the "Huns' lands", listing thirteen peoples: Abdel, Alan, Avar, Avgar, Bagrasir, Bulgar, Dirmar, Hephtalit, Khazar, Kulas, Kutargar, Sabir and Sirurgur. Some of these peoples are not Huns, like the Alans and Avars (or the Hephtalites, unproperly called "White Huns"), others are tribes of a larger ethnos, like the Kutriguri, a branch of the Bulgars. He mentions also the Avnagur, who are clearly identifiable with the Hunogurs, and of whom Armenian records attest that they dwelled in the Caucasus. The texts also mention a people north of the Caucasus called the Unogundurs. The name Onghondor-blkar in the Armenian geography is a variant of the older Vh'ndur-bulgar in the History of Moses Horenaci and both terms are transcribed in Greek as Unogundur or Unogur. These are just two denominations of the same tribe, the Hunogurs or Onogurs. After the departure of the Huns for Central Europe, a group of Unogundurs occupied the plains of maritime Daghestan and became known to Egishe under the name Hajlandurs. Almost all chroniclers identify the Unogundurs with the original Bulgarians. Even the khan of the Great Bulgaria Kubrat was called "the ruler of the Unogundurs". WHY, O WHY, ARE BULGARIANS NOT "SLAVIC"?!?!?[?] P.S. "A spectacular epic, "Khan Asparukh" remains the most-attended film in Bulgaria of all time. The official statistics show that close to 11 million people saw the original three part version, and a little over 2 million saw the atrocious shorter cut with Bulgarian subtitles. This in a nation with a population of 8 million!" http://www.gotterdammerung.org/film/reviews/k/khan-asparukh.html
o.k. o.k. (so what strange here), but you seem to hide away (as always) from the point: What I am telling you is that knowling the history of the Russians will preclude you from asking such stupid questions. Russians are not "Slavs" period. Whay are they not Slavs? I don't know, fate perhaps? That's like saying why is gold not iron? Radule - i se e mozno! ......... What I am telling you is that knowling the history of the Croations will preclude you from asking such stupid questions. Croats are not "Slavs" period. Whay are they not Slavs? I don't know, fate perhaps? That's like saying why is gold not iron? Donski - i se e mozno! ............ etc., etc. I didn't understand - what happened to the NUMEROUS Slavic inhabitants of Mizija, Trakia and Macedonia - are they bulgarians or they are the McLeods daughters??
Misirkov --------------------------------------------------------------------- "...what happened to the NUMEROUS Slavic inhabitants of Mizija, Trakia and Macedonia - are they bulgarians?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess we will have to start from 1st grade and basic logic: the principles of modus ponens, modus tolens, etc. 1. There are "Slavic" inhabitants in the Balkans. 2. The Bulgarians, an asiatic people, come to the Balkans in the 6-7 century. Thereofre, are "Slavic" inhabitants Bulgars?[?] http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/11Miftakhov/Lecture%202Ru.htm
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
--------------------------------------------------------------------- "...what happened to the NUMEROUS Slavic inhabitants of Mizija, Trakia and Macedonia - are they bulgarians?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess we will have to start from 1st grade and basic logic: the principles of modus ponens, modus tolens, etc. 1. There are "Slavic" inhabitants in the Balkans. 2. The Bulgarians, an asiatic people, come to the Balkans in the 6-7 century. Thereofre, are "Slavic" inhabitants Bulgars?[?] http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/11Miftakhov/Lecture%202Ru.htm
Of course I know why DIDN'T bare asking me a simple question, but it is ENTIRELY your risk, so "ZIVELI", a? But (may be) there are people like Dejan, who LIKE You and HATE me, but is it lasting? Take care (pal)!
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
I am sorry the answer does you no good,
The answer is no good because it is not an aswer. The reason for me to think this way is because it seems you are unable to provide any solid facts.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
but I am under no obligation to enlighten you (or anyone else) about history.
I am sorry if I made you feel obligated. As the former "Istorichar so renome" I would have assumed that such discussions were of interest to you. Considering that most of my interests are about your history I was hopeing that you might have chosen to enlighten me. I would still greatly appriciate it if you provide me some solid answers with regards to my Macedonian questions. Please keep in mind; you are under no obligation.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
You are essentially asking who and what the Macedonians, but with a skewed lens (are they "Slavs"). Macedonians are Macedonians and as Macedonian I don't "preach", but speak of certainties.
Ok, I admit that the question is very specific. That is what helps us stay clear from any bias. Saying "Macedonians are Macedonians" is not a very educated statment. It has no credebility and the reason is; you say a whole lot but all that you say is empty words that are not supported by any facts. I don't care about your personal opinion. If, however, you answer the question "Are Macedonians Slavs?" logically then that is different(requires facts). I emphasize on the word logically. Providing facts is the only way achieve logic. I guess that if I asked you to define the word 'characteristic' you would answer something along the lines of 'a characteristic is used to characterise' to a person asking the definition of 'characteristic' such an answer will deffinitely not assist in his comprehension of that word; That is the approach that you have taken so far with regards to my questions.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
your theory that Macedonians are allegedly Bulgarian doesn't fit?
What are you talking about? I have not mention anything of the sort. Misirkov, what I ask is simple, read what my questions are. Stop posting nonsence and try to stay on topic. I would now like to mention that I am not obligating you to do so. However, I think it would be nice if you stay on topic. It is getting a little annoying to have to reapeat the same thing over and over, but if that is what it will take to broaden my personal views on those questions then lets go on with the discussions. Please read what I asked. Assuming things is what makes you angry. I see that you have been stripped of the title "Istorichar so renome". Don't worry; this new title of "Moderator" will strike fear into the heart of anyone who dares ask such questions. A cold shiver went down my spine just reading your new title, hah. So don't feel too bad, look at it as a promotion instead of a demotion. [:)]
graf Batbayan, wake up and smeel the macedonian coffee. If you don't like what you are reading then you can leave. It is that simply.Here you are an outsider that doesn't not like what he is reading.
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Unfortunatelly, the truth must hurt a lot, though there is no reason to be ashamed if you are not "slavic".
Anyone who is shamed to call themself a Bulgarian(Bulgar) is a person who does not know the history of Bulgaria and the Bulgarian people. I am proud to call myself a Bulgarian; direct decendend from Attila! Hell, that man put the whole of Europe to its knees.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Indeed, why do you feel so ashamed of the asiatic origin of the Bulgarians so that you ask the questions that you do?
Any statments saying and depicting Bulgars(Huns) as Asiatic or Turkik people are solely based on the initial writings of the Roman church. Most of these writers had never seen a Hun up close. They called them Asiatic to separate them from Europe. I guess you believe that the Huns were half human half animal too? Misirkov, I will rcomend this book to you. Actually I recomend this book to anyone who is interested in the history of the Huns(Bulgars). It is written from a none bias perspective. The author completly butchers missenterpretations about the Huns(such as your own). He does so by provideing archeological, anthropological, traditional, cultural and historic facts. He sets many of the wrong views on the Huns straight. They are not Asiatic nor Turkik. Here is the book, one of many. This one provides the most accurate depiction of Huns and everything inside is backed up by facts. The World of the Huns: Studies in Their History and Culture Otto J. Maenchen-Helfen
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
WHY, O WHY, ARE BULGARIANS NOT "SLAVIC"?!?!?[?]
The theories that Bulgars are Slavs are quoted between 800AD - 900AD. Focus on that time period.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
P.S. "A spectacular epic, "Khan Asparukh" remains the most-attended film in Bulgaria of all time. The official statistics show that close to 11 million people saw the original three part version, and a little over 2 million saw the atrocious shorter cut with Bulgarian subtitles. This in a nation with a population of 8 million!"
Maybe the viewers were not all Bulgarian? Also keep in mind, that Bulgaria has a population of 8 million, but there are, Bulgarians, more than half that amount outside of Bulgaria. Clarification on my questions: Please note that I am not asking theese questions to provoke any negative discussions. Read the questions, they are simple and specific. I am simply interested in information on those questions for my own personal knowledge. Here are the questions again: Are Macedonians Slavs? Is the Macedonian language a Slavic language? What % is the mixture of ancient Macedonians and Slavs? Are Bulgarians Slavs?
Batbayan Graf, I am an outsider in this forum and there is no question about that. I never said that I don't like what I am reading. I am simply saying that the answers that I have been provided with so far have no historical substance, they hold no facts. Even tough I have not gotten these answers, I am enjoying these discussion quite a bit. It is providing me with a broad understanding of how a Macedonian percieves certain aspects of balkan history, including the history of my people. In Bulgaria we have a saying... I would like to share it with you. Now, it is written in Bulgarian so I hope that you will be able to understand it. Let me know if you would like me to translate it into English. - " "
concrete Batbayan,Batbayan, ke ostanes nekolku dena bez kontrola i kako gledam po obicaj si zabeguvas. Tipicna odlika za onie koi gi zastapuvas.Kade ti e bre batka barem domasnoto vospitanie , ili treba da ti go prevedam poimot: domasno vospitanie .Samo kazi na bugarski ili na angliski , neznam koj jazik ti e poblizok . Se utepavte , ne samo ti ,ami site , na eden makedonski forum pisuvajki angliski!!!!! Toa edno vreme bese poznato kako : se pravi anglicanec!!! (iliti srbin,grk ili bugarin !!!!) Dobro kazuvas:In Bulgaria we have a saying... , zanimliva pogovorka, ama nie takva pogovorka kolku sto znam nemame , prevedi ja , na makedonski pa da vidime , sme sretnale li slicno nesto kaj nas ??? Pogledaj malku podobro ,nalikuvas na obrazuvano i ljubopitno momce , moze bi celava diskusija e veter , da ne se toa bugarite (a pro po pogovorkata)vsusnost nekoi izgubeni potomci na Spartancite ,nie se raspravame ovde , a resenieto ni bilo pred nosot , baska prestizno , noble , do tuka biduva. ' ! Aj ne tropaj gluposti , so takvi zastareni propagandi koi ne cinat dve tretini narod i 100 godini istorija .Nie si ja naucivme lekcijata : za svojata sloboda i tatatkovinata ne treba nie da umreme , treba nasite neprijateli da gi naterame da umrat za nea !!!
concrete Ova sto sledi nema vrska so temava nitu so pisanijata na Batbayan ,tuku so nesto drugo: pred nekoja godina vo Wizburg (kaj Minhen) sretnav eden star gospodin na cca 65-70 godini , koj me prasa za edna adresa vo okolinata ,vo razgovorot , na prijatelot od Pancevo koj bese so mene mu prozborev nesto srpski. E togas gospodinov na perfekten mek govor od Vojvodina ,se zainteresira od kade sum.Da ne dolzam , bese folksdojcer iselen,izbrkan ili sto veke 1945,no koj zboruvase kako vcera da otisol od Zrenjanin, bez sarkovi ,stritovi ,mortgejdzi ,klemanje, etc. Postojano se prasuvam od togas:kultura li e , nesto drugo li e???? Ne vo odnos na decata, na vnucite , tie se veke izgubeni , tuku sto e so nas od prvo koleno, ke se praznime li na vakvi forumi i toa na angliski ????
Batbayan Concrete, I am sad to say that when I leave this forum chances are that I will leave with no answers. 1. I have gotten no link about the 5,000,000 Euro. Maybe you are keeping it to yourselves? [:)] 2. It seems that with regards to Bulgars you simply say "Bulgarians are not Slavs" and you reapeat that over and over. Don't get me wrong, I have respect for anyone that actually submits a logical answer. I don't care what your stand point is. If you don't defend the statement you have made then you appear as a simple fool. A statement with no explanation is empty propaganda... regardless of whether what you are saying is the truth or not (altough in many cases it is effectful). 3. Macedonian history forum with all of the "Istorichar so renome"s and still no one can provide an educated answer to any of the Macedonian interests that I have. You make bold statements, which is very good. But, when you are unable to stand behind what you say and you can't back it up by historical facts then you loose all credebility for respect. Here we are at a possible end point to this discussion. Instead of going through so many replies, both wasting my time and yours, you could have simply written 'I don't know'. Admiting that you don't know is a hell of a lot better than makeing yourself look like a fool. Maybe you have more "Istorichar so renomes"s hidden in reserve. If you do please bring them out so that we can have an intelegent discussion. PS: No propaganda is intended by my signature. Concrete, to this forum, I take English to be the neutral language.
concrete Batbayan ,ne e seto ova samo gubenje vreme ,vaka ke se raspravame dodeka ne naucime da se slusame eden so drug i duri togas da pocneme da go redime mozaikot sto i dvajcata go narekuvame istorija. Ajde zavrti ja slikata , pretpostavi deka ne si vo pravo , vidi dali ima i druga konfiguracija na istorijata koja pie voda .Ili smetas deka site nie koi mislime podrugo sme samo zabludeni magarinja???? Inaku angliskiot ne e neutralen tuku si e angliski , a jas ne sum istoricar so renome , nitu nekade sum pretendiral deka sum takov , za onie 5000000 ti spomna , a jas samo se zainteresirav. Toa bi bila dobra para da se dofinansira eden zanimliv proekt.
concrete Batbayan ,ne e seto ova samo gubenje vreme ,vaka ke se raspravame dodeka ne naucime da se slusame eden so drug i duri togas da pocneme da go redime mozaikot sto i dvajcata go narekuvame istorija. Ajde zavrti ja slikata , pretpostavi deka ne si vo pravo , vidi dali ima i druga konfiguracija na istorijata koja pie voda .Ili smetas deka site nie koi mislime podrugo sme samo zabludeni magarinja???? Inaku angliskiot ne e neutralen tuku si e angliski , a jas ne sum istoricar so renome , nitu nekade sum pretendiral deka sum takov , za onie 5000000 ti spomna , a jas samo se zainteresirav. Toa bi bilo dobra para da se dofinansira eden zanimliv proekt.
Batbayan Concrete,
quote:

vaka ke se raspravame dodeka ne naucime da se slusame eden so drug
You have my undevided attention. I am ready to listen. You have heard of the 5,000,000 Euro before I mentioned them, correct? I think no one is saying anything because they want less competition. [;)]
concrete ...............I am ready to listen. Odlicno,toa ke bide mala prijatna promena,a taka mozebi ke naucis nesto novo i polezno !!!! A za onie pari ,slusnav od tebe za prv pat i toa i me natera da se priklucam na diskusijava: Posted - October 22 2004 : 17:43:05 I also read somewhere that there is an award of 5,000,000 Euro to anyone who can Prove that Bulgarians are Slavs... as I am aware the award is still standing. Anyone know more on this? Jas prv pat voopsto na ovoj forum se prikluciv na : Posted - October 27 2004 : 15:28:23 Si me pobrkal so nekoj drug!!!
graf Bathyayn, Bulgaria hay. Abre odi sega. Sto barase ovde. Odi do virtualbulguyria.com ahhahah Mislis deka se SMART. well you are the one that has been brain wash all of our life by your government. I think you live to close to that nuclear reactor ahahha
Great_Macedonian grafce tafce ;)
slasa Bugarin tatare ako nejkesa da razberwes koj te e..be ,,, Naucise Makedonski pa ke razbiras ,, ke ti trebi vo idnina Makedonski majhcin jazik i tebe ...
concrete Aj sega pak ne zabeguvajte , se dogovorivme da se slusame i da pocneme so ubavo i respekt da komunicirame , vaka kaj ni e krajot !!!!!
Batbayan
quote:

Probably Misirkov's doing since his title of "Istorichar so renome" was put to shame...
Misirkov, you took it the wrong way. Simple attempt for a joke. Grafe, I have spent all of my adult life outside of Bulgaria. I have studied in Bulgaria up until grade 5; any knowledge that I posses with regards to anything, after grade 5, I have obtained from my education in Canada. I do read history from Bulgarian sources from time to time but my predominant knowledge comes from either American or Western European authors. I certainly hope that Americans use "Environmentally products" but then again after what they did in Kosovo, you never know.
quote:

Forumot e za istorija, razrovi se niz temite da vidis kako i ovaa tema sme ja diskutirale od razlicni agli.
Misirkov, I have not yet seen one post on this forum to asnwer the questions that I have. Once again, the one that I am most interested in is: Are Macedonians Slavs? Please explain. Do not assume that I know. Show me that this is a history forum. Most replies that you provide are not educated and this is because you don't explain. Hopeing and wishing... that doesn't make history. Facts do. ++ !
Batbayan
quote:

Odlicno,toa ke bide mala prijatna promena,a taka mozebi ke naucis nesto novo i polezno !!!!
Whats the hold up? - Are Macedonians Slavs? Educate me on this topic, that is what you wanted isn't it?
quote:

Odi do virtualbulguyria.com ahhahah
Grafe, I have gone I have asked I have read. Their answer is that Macedonians are Bulgarians who speak the Bulgarian language. I have come here to get your perspective.
Batbayan I see that you have deleted my signature. Probably Misirkov's doing since his title of "Istorichar so renome" was put to shame. I am assuming that you are trying to intimidate me. It appears that you are threatened simply because I have asked you about your history. Why do you fear those questions so much? Why avoid them? If you don't want me on your forum then just ask me to leave. I am not getting any logical or historical answers anyway. Macedonian History forum? I haven't seen one historical posting so far.
graf Batbayan, u must be losing the plot, I think it is all due to the brain washing. When bulgayrains do brain washing do they use Environmentally products hahaha go home and cry to baba i dedo ahahah
Misirkov --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Probably Misirkov's doing since his title of "Istorichar so renome" was put to shame. I am assuming that you are trying to intimidate me. It appears that you are threatened simply because I have asked you about your history. Why do you fear those questions so much? Why avoid them?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Kako recisi sekoj "Bugar" i ovoj ima bujna fantazija! Jas mislis nemam druga rabota tuku so tvoite "titli" i kompleksi da se se bavam?! Forumot e za istorija, razrovi se niz temite da vidis kako i ovaa tema sme ja diskutirale od razlicni agli. Bre bugarska rabota, prasuva za da nametne tema, a ne definira poimi. Verojatno i toa mu e del od sistemot na "boduvanje" deka postignal kvota postovi na makedonski forum.
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by highlander
500.000 5.000.000 EU .
The World; views: Macedonians as Slavs Bulgarians as Slavs the language each nation speaks as Slavic These views are reffered back to about 600AD-700AD-800AD-900AD. Tell me why Macedonians and Bulgarians should not be reffered to as Slavs. Ellaborate on what you have stated and please focus on the questions of why they are NOT Slavs. I ask about the 5,000,000 Euro because it seems that it is offered to anyone who can provide a logical theory as to why Bulgars are Slavs. Therefore, who ever is offering this reward must have a solid theory of Bulgars not being Slavs. As you know that was one of the questions that I asked. I don't see why you percist with such answers. Don't you realize that asnwers like that make this forum the exact opposite of historic? Time frame to focus, as I have said many many many times, is 600AD-900AD. That is the only relevant period as to answer the questions that I have. ++ !
graf Batbayan, We are all interested here as to see if you have a brain. can you show us proof please.
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by graf
Batbayan, We are all interested here as to see if you have a brain. can you show us proof please.
Note; I can write. You have seen this. Since, writing requires thinking and you know that I can write; it shows that I can think. Since thinking is a function provided by the brain; it shows that in order to think a brain must exist. Thus, by induction, - I can think - therefore I have a brain. ++ !
Misirkov "by induction" xa xa xa. "Bulgar" -- if you are that at all -- please define what is a "slav". And then do revisit some of the earlier posts about the turkic nature of the Bulgars. Here you have more info: http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/t/tu/turkic_peoples.html And then please do "induction".[;)]
highlander Batbayan, ... , ?
Batbayan Misirkov, history needs no philosophizing. Facts will do good. You appear to avoid everything that I have wrote or questioned, even abot your own history. The Slav question can be takein into consideration between time periods: 600AD-900AD. Read what I write and stop posting nonsense.
quote:
highlander
First: I never said that Bulgars are Slavs. I asked you why Bulgars are NOT Slavs. Second: Please read before you post. Third: I am here to get your perspective on things, I am not going to teach you history because if I pull out historic facts I will most probably get banned from this forum. You and your moderators seem to get upset at simple questions about your history, that you can't answer, if I start posting facts on Bulgaria/Macedonia I am positive I will be banned so that they hide the truth. I am leaving you to tell me your history. Fourth: I thought this was the Macedonian History forum. Why do you avoid the questions about your history? All that you do is keep posting information on Bulgaria and its history, why is that? I am here to learn about Macedonia. ++ !
highlander I never said that Bulgars are Slavs , , . You and your moderators seem to get upset at simple questions about your history, that you can't answer. , .
Great_Macedonian Batbayan visit www.historyofmacedonia.org it will give u a good inside into macedonia's history... just for the record i have told you and many others have also told you, so once and for all get it through your head ok.. We, macedonians of today are the descendents of the ancient macedonians, however though after 400 a.d (not 800 or 900ad like u state) slavs came into the southern balkan region, some came to macedonia too, nobody knows how many came into macedonia, but within time they melted into the macedonian population.
Great_Macedonian ACTUALLY BATBAYAN.. CLICK ON THIS WEBPAGE http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/MacedoniansNotSlavs.html THIS WEBPAGE PROOVES WHY MACEDONIANS ARE NOT SLAVS.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Isto i pod Bulgarians, tatarce kleto. ...mixed origin, unkown ethincity...
! . .
jamajka Bugar, ne mi pokaza nitu edna stara karta, sve se karti od segashnosta, oboeni po zelba.
Divider Ocekuvas od tatar da prikaze nesto sto ne mu odgovara (imeno stari karti ili vistinski fakti)????
noname
quote:
. - (Σ 15.000) ȣ , ȣ . , , ȣ ȣ, ȣ .. !
Predpostavuvaam ovoi material ot Mikulcic si go propustil NAMERNO??: " #1116; j , . (. ) #1107; . . . ( ) 83 #1114; (. 6). [16] , , j. j j, #1114; , . j () j, - j . 9. 10. . j J j j, - (). . j j #1114; . . j (. 6). - j . , . [17] ( ) . - j j #1114; . j. j j , (. 6). . . [18] ( 9. 10. , , j . , J j, j . j , ( , ), #1107; , - j ojapco (. . 6). [25] j j #1114; 9. . 35 j, j (j 8. ). #1114; . j , () j, ja j j. j, j , #1107; j j j, j. #1107; j #1114; , Ereja j J , "". j j . "
Divider Znaci spored tebe zitelite na Slovenija, Ungarija i Hrvatka e bolgari?? What a crack of shite.
Divider Yeah, yeah, just go spread your lies again. Better yet, go and fornicate with the pig you bought.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Yeah, yeah, just go spread your lies again. Better yet, go and fornicate with the pig you bought.
You want more mongolian pics from Macedonia? Football players, singers, politicians, scientists, etc....? You're welcome!
Divider You now, that pig awfully looks like your prime ministers son!! Go and kiss him!!
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
You now, that pig awfully looks like your prime ministers son!! Go and kiss him!!
So? Our prime-minister claims pedigree from car Samuil, but not from ANY Bulgarian (according to Radule)? Since you pretend to be Samuil's relatives it makes YOU SAXE-COBURG-GOTTA pigs (but still pigs)...... [:)][:)] Your life is not an easy one, isn't it?
Divider Saxe Cobugh Gotha by the way stoopid not Gotta!! On the previous, from WHOM?? If I do not die laughing I'll celebrate. Wait untill everyone sees your dumb assed post. Oh, nice try, you want us to die laughing, a? You sleazy shite!!
Divider Jeeezzz, i'm still delirious, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahaha...ughhh....aaaaaaahhhrg ...rrrrrrrrgggggggggg...hahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Saxe Cobugh Gotha by the way stoopid not Gotta!! On the previous, from WHOM?? If I do not die laughing I'll celebrate. Wait untill everyone sees your dumb assed post. Oh, nice try, you want us to die laughing, a? You sleazy shite!!
What shall I say? It's your stock and BLOOD, not OURS! Kiss his Saxe-Coburg-Gotha PIGS since! It's ENTIRELY your will....
Divider I'm not going to lower myself to your level. I'll just reply to you politely: Stop bothering normal people, please. Nobody cares what you think. Seek some professional help, please. We've educated you enough. Let us not get into ugly stuff, like bad words, bad language. Consider this as another lesson in lifes little misteries. OK. Just leave. Oh, BTW, keep the pig!!
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
I'm not going to lower myself to your level. I'll just reply to you politely: Stop bothering normal people, please. Nobody cares what you think. Seek some professional help, please. We've educated you enough. Let us not get into ugly stuff, like bad words, bad language. Consider this as another lesson in lifes little misteries. OK. Just leave. Oh, BTW, keep the pig!!
Ok, I admit that I'm Tatar and a pig.
Divider You see, once again you prove my point. You are a barbarian as your tatar ancestors were and still are.
Great_Macedonian quote: maleshevo. Tatar, Macedonians were always "Slavs". They were called by the Romans after the ocupation of Macedonia and in the middle ages by the Greeks "Sclavini". From "Sclavin" comes "Slav". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maleshevo, speak for yourself, i am macedonian and im not slav! macedonians are descendants of the ancient macedonians. As for "Goce Delchev".. get rid of that nickname.. the forum administrator should have banned you a long time ago. How dare you use the name of the greatest macedonian hero in the past centuries, who openly stated that macedonians are not bulgarians. Go find your own "hero" like ghangis khan or somthing. Frankly i dont even know what "goce delchev" and batbayan are trying to prove? are they trying to say that bulgarians are not tatars and that they are slavs?? both slavs and tatars were stupid poor uncivilised tribes and nothing more.. i wouldnt wanna be any of them. If anything, i think that you bulgarians would have a more glorious history to speak of if you edmit to been tatars than a stinky russian tribe called "slavs", a tribe which has nothing to show for itself except for the fact that the word slave comes from slav, because in ancient times the romans took the stinky slavs as their slaves. Thats where the word slave comes from. So do you wanna be a descendant of a stinky SlavE tribe, or from a tribe which atleast had a warrior which fought and won wars, like that of ghangis khan. The same goes for the macedonians out there, like maleshevo who think they are slavs.. go kiss russia's ugly ass. I am macedonian and i am the descendant of nobody else but the macedonians!!! "Goce Delchev" one more thing... i have heard that in canada particulary, there exists macedonian organisations who are "pro-bulgarian".. who are "bulgarianized".. so that website with the bulgarian flag and so on.. it may be one of them. Go to 95% of macedonian sites and you will find that they state that macedonians are nothing but macedonian.
Divider Great Mac., do not bother with dumb tataroglu like Batbayan Goce Delchev or Noname. Leave them die stopid. They are hopeless. We are trying to educate them, but can you educate a donkey?
Great_Macedonian Divider, what it all comes down to is respect sombody for who they say they are. If i say that i am macedonian and not bulgarian or slav, then respect it damit!! and ill respect you for who you are. If you say your Bulgarian with whatever origin, ill respect you as long as you respect me and my identity.. thats what it all really comes down to. Enough of our stupid balkan arguments where everybody thinks they and only they own the balkans and its history. When people in the balkans learn to accept people for who they are, and stop questioning their background, thats when the region will prosper. All people want is for their children to be able to live in a prosperous balkan, part of Europe. Nationalism is in the past, and it should die out all together. However though, macedonians are forced to be nationalists because others always question our identity. Stop denying identity "goce delchev" and batbayan.. than you might get some respect from people on this forum. And the stupedist thing some of you have done is post pictures of macedonian and bulgarian girls and try to act like you are all god and "magically you all know" what is the ancestory of each and every one of those people.
Divider Yeah, well, I agree, but as i said it's all smoke over water. You can not ask that from someone that has no brains or some minute traces of brain matter in their heads. All we can do is try.
Batbayan historyofmacedonia.org presents some "facts" Take a look at my post "Macedonia History at historyofmacedonia.org". It revolves around quotes from historyofmacedonia.org. I know that the historyofmacedonia.org website has been reffered to by several of the people here.
Snake Bite Shtom si bugarin odgovorot e ok,delumno. ...no sepak bi sakal da go slushnam i Batbayan...
bitushanec Ke dadam mnogu ednostaven odgovor zosto bugarite sakaat makedoncite da se Bugari! Naredeni po prioritet, evi Vi tri glavni objasnenija sto korist bugarite imaat od toa sto sakaat makedoncite da bidat "bugari"" 1. Nemanjeto na bugarska kultura..oti bugarska kultura znachi govorenje pamirski tataro-turski jazik koj e izumren (a, ne segashen t.n. bugarski jazik koj e prezemen od makedoncite, pishuvanje so tatarsko pismo (a, ne segashno t.n. bugarsko pismo koe e prezemeno od makedoncite itn) I samiot strav na nemanje na svoja sopstvena kultura, a celoto prezemanje na makedonskata kultura go plashi originalniot bugar od nepostoenje na svoja bugarska kultura, a seto toa znachi I nepostoenje na bugarska nacija! Sevo ova go frustrira I mu nametnuva kompleks na bugarot, koj ochajnichki saka da dokazhe deka makedonskata kultura, jazik I pismenost koj bugarskiot narod ja prezel od makedonskiot e bugarski, a so toa go lechi svojot kompleks na liliputanec, bezrbetnik, tatar (zamislete evropska nacija so tatarski koreni kako se chuvstvuva!), chovek bez svoja istorija. 2. Sramot na bugarinot od svoeto turko-tatarsko poteklo (vidi enciklopedija: Bugarite se Turko-Tatarski narod). 3. Ogromniot procent na makedonci vo Bugarija koi ne zhiveat samo vo Pirinska Makedonija, tuku niz cela Bugarija kako Sofija, Plovdiv, Stara Zagora, Crnomorieto, a so lazhnata istorija I propagadna bugarskata drzhava saka da go bugarizira makedonskoto naselenie I od niv da napravi lojalni gragani na Tatarstanpardon Bugarija 3. Nemanjeto na bugarska kultura..oti bugarska kultura znachi govorenje pamirski tataro-turski jazik koj e izumren (a, ne segashen t.n. bugarski jazik koj e prezemen od makedoncite, pishuvanje so tatarsko pismo (a, ne segashno t.n. bugarsko pismo koe e prezemeno od makedoncite itn) I samiot strav na nemanje na svoja sopstvena kultura, a celoto prezemanje na makedonskata kultura go plashi originalniot bugar od nepostoenje na svoja bugarska kultura, a seto toa znachi I nepostoenje na bugarska nacija! Sevo ova go frustrira I mu nametnuva kompleks na bugarot, koj ochajnichki saka da dokazhe deka makedonskata kultura, jazik I pismenost koj bugarskiot narod ja prezel od makedonskiot e bugarski, a so toa go lechi svojot kompleks na liliputanec, bezrbetnik, tatar (zamislete evropska nacija so tatarski koreni kako se chuvstvuva!), chovek bez svoja istorija.
Great_Macedonian ako se makedoncite bugari.. zosto bugarskata policija ne gi pusta na makedoncite vo pirinska makedonija da polozat cvejke na grobot od Jane Sandanski? od sto se plasat? MACEDONIA NOT FOR THE GREEKS,BULGARIANS, OR SERBS... MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS!!!
noname
quote:
Originally posted by bitushanec
Ke dadam mnogu ednostaven odgovor zosto bugarite sakaat makedoncite da se Bugari! Naredeni po prioritet, evi Vi tri glavni objasnenija sto korist bugarite imaat od toa sto sakaat makedoncite da bidat "bugari"" 1. Nemanjeto na bugarska kultura..oti bugarska kultura znachi govorenje pamirski tataro-turski jazik koj e izumren (a, ne segashen t.n. bugarski jazik koj e prezemen od makedoncite, pishuvanje so tatarsko pismo (a, ne segashno t.n. bugarsko pismo koe e prezemeno od makedoncite itn) I samiot strav na nemanje na svoja sopstvena kultura, a celoto prezemanje na makedonskata kultura go plashi originalniot bugar od nepostoenje na svoja bugarska kultura, a seto toa znachi I nepostoenje na bugarska nacija! Sevo ova go frustrira I mu nametnuva kompleks na bugarot, koj ochajnichki saka da dokazhe deka makedonskata kultura, jazik I pismenost koj bugarskiot narod ja prezel od makedonskiot e bugarski, a so toa go lechi svojot kompleks na liliputanec, bezrbetnik, tatar (zamislete evropska nacija so tatarski koreni kako se chuvstvuva!), chovek bez svoja istorija. 2. Sramot na bugarinot od svoeto turko-tatarsko poteklo (vidi enciklopedija: Bugarite se Turko-Tatarski narod). 3. Ogromniot procent na makedonci vo Bugarija koi ne zhiveat samo vo Pirinska Makedonija, tuku niz cela Bugarija kako Sofija, Plovdiv, Stara Zagora, Crnomorieto, a so lazhnata istorija I propagadna bugarskata drzhava saka da go bugarizira makedonskoto naselenie I od niv da napravi lojalni gragani na Tatarstanpardon Bugarija 3. Nemanjeto na bugarska kultura..oti bugarska kultura znachi govorenje pamirski tataro-turski jazik koj e izumren (a, ne segashen t.n. bugarski jazik koj e prezemen od makedoncite, pishuvanje so tatarsko pismo (a, ne segashno t.n. bugarsko pismo koe e prezemeno od makedoncite itn) I samiot strav na nemanje na svoja sopstvena kultura, a celoto prezemanje na makedonskata kultura go plashi originalniot bugar od nepostoenje na svoja bugarska kultura, a seto toa znachi I nepostoenje na bugarska nacija! Sevo ova go frustrira I mu nametnuva kompleks na bugarot, koj ochajnichki saka da dokazhe deka makedonskata kultura, jazik I pismenost koj bugarskiot narod ja prezel od makedonskiot e bugarski, a so toa go lechi svojot kompleks na liliputanec, bezrbetnik, tatar (zamislete evropska nacija so tatarski koreni kako se chuvstvuva!), chovek bez svoja istorija.
Maleee - e ova e ARGUMENT!! Krai. interesno kakva kultura, jazik i pismenost e toa: http://tribal.abv.bg/bitola/ i dali imalo tatari-matari po toa vreme?
bitushanec Crnorizec, ma ajde ne zafrkavaj.....Grcite velat "vulgarite (prostak na grchki, see Dictionary of the Modern Greek Language (1998), Prof. Dr. Georgios Babiniotis), imaat cela fabrika za pravenje kameni ploci so falsifikatna sodrzina......... Taka sto Tatar, ne znam sto ne te baniraat od forumov!
noname
quote:
Originally posted by bitushanec
Chernorizec hrabar, oti malce chitaj go Crnorizec koy vo site svoi dela kazhuva: SLOVENSKIOT NAROD VO MAKEDONIJA....NIKADE NE SPOMNAL CRNORIZEC HRABAR BUGARI VO MAKEDONIJA! A bitolskata plocha e chist falsifikat! Napishana e vo ist duh i recenziya kako i vodenskata, t.e. crkvenoslovenska recenzija od 19 vek, no ne od 11 vek!!!! A razlikata pomegu crkvenoslovenskiot od 11 i 19 vek e OGROMNA! Zatoa ne treskai gluposti i odi uzhivai vo blgarskite falsifikati od Blgarskata Nartodna Biblioteka!
Mi se sdosadi ot gluposti - dai be procheti malce koi e i sto e CHERNORIZEC HRABAR i posle tropai, dosta chita Radule - chitai izvrorite vo original! I eve ti MALKA bibliografija za t.n. BITOLSKI NADPIS, 1015/16 G. ama ot NEbalgarski ucheni (vkl. MAKEDONSKI): - , . 1017 , j, XVII, 1966, . 51-61; - Zaimov, J., Lysaght,T. The Bitolya Inscription of the Bulgarian Autocrat Ivan Vladislav(1015-1016), New Zealand slavistic journal, 1970, 6, p. 1-16; - , . 1017 ., ja, 1971, 2, . 255-257; - ,. , , , .23, j, 1971, .444; - , . - :I J, , 1976, . 59-60; - Lunt,H. Slavic Review, 31, 1972, p. 499; - , . j h , j , , . 16, , 1974, . 33; - Mathiesen, R. The Importance of the Bitola Inscription for Cyrillic Palaeography, The Slavic and East European Journal, 21, 1977, 1, p. 1-2 .....................................................................
angomako pa celo vreme bre mislev na ustavot!ne znam kolku konkretno trebase da go kazam toa.mislev deka ednostavno se podrazbira na sto mislam. a ako mislis deka bugarite od pred 1500godini se isti so onie sega,togas ok,nema problem.toa celo vreme i sakaat da ti go kazat deckive od forumov. voopsto nemam nikakov problem so svojata nacionalna identifikacija,samo sto sum iznenaden od faktot kolku silno i rasisticno se opiras na nekoj elementarni vistini,i + imas muda da kazes nesto od tipot deka bugarskite malcinstva se vo bugarija na gosti!bravo be batka!ete ti blgarceta prava i gorda! i vie kje ste idele za evropa,kuku... bugarija,isto kako i drugite drzavi,ima edna preponderance od istorija,koja treba da posluzi kako sredstvo za lepenje na nacijata. zamisli,srbi odat vo sofija pred 80godini,i im vikaat:vie od sega trakijci kje bidete. i levo desno,op trt,posle edno 20 godini eve gi sofijanci site trakijci stanale,potomci na antickite trakijci. ete taka izgleda vasata logika vo odnos na makedoncite. a po nacinot na koj sto zboris za malcinstvata i kako gi tretirate vo ustavot i realnosta,ne znam koj ima problemi so svojata nacionalna identifikacija...tokmu taa sloboda na malcinskite prava koja odsekogas postoese vo makedonija zbori za toa kolku nie vsusnost i nemame problemi so svojot identitet,batka(!)...a kaj vas site tie stravovi i represii kon drugi malcinstva,samo zborat za toa kolku bugarite imaat problemi so svojot sopstven identitet i se plasite nekoj slucajno da ne go razvodni(?)...inaku so kje bese ovoj odbranben stav vo odnos na romite i turcite,aman.. mnogu e ednostavno.se obiduvam da ti dadam eden mal evropski tvist vo razmislata,ama tesko ide.stvarno nemate sto da ne naucite ko bugari,ako vaka ko tebe razmisluvaat i povekjeto tvoi sonarodnici(a najverojatno razmisluvaat),samo se povekje i povekje kje se odalecuvame,i najverojatno na takvite kako tebe kje im trebaat uste edno deset godini da svatat deka se bilo za dzabe.mene mi e i onaka seedno.ja kje si prodolzam da bidam makedonec kako i site pred i posle mene. veruvam deka e desislava ubava,samo takvi iminja nie tuka vo makedonija i nemame...mnogu od iminjata sto gi koristat bugarite ne se koristele kaj nas. aj bidi pozdraven
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako
pa celo vreme bre mislev na ustavot!ne znam kolku konkretno trebase da go kazam toa.mislev deka ednostavno se podrazbira na sto mislam. a ako mislis deka bugarite od pred 1500godini se isti so onie sega,togas ok,nema problem.toa celo vreme i sakaat da ti go kazat deckive od forumov.
Hahaha balgari ot pred 1500 godini?? Ti si seriozen? Pa nie postoime kako takvi kako sto sme sega ot ne poveke ot 1100-1200 godini. Ti kolko godini imash? 20? Pa i 30 godini da imash ne si istiot so TI ot pred 120 godini, zar ne?
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako i vie kje ste idele za evropa,kuku... bugarija,isto kako i drugite drzavi,ima edna preponderance od istorija,koja treba da posluzi kako sredstvo za lepenje na nacijata. zamisli,srbi odat vo sofija pred 80godini,i im vikaat:vie od sega trakijci kje bidete. i levo desno,op trt,posle edno 20 godini eve gi sofijanci site trakijci stanale,potomci na antickite trakijci. ete taka izgleda vasata logika vo odnos na makedoncite. a po nacinot na koj sto zboris za malcinstvata i kako gi tretirate vo ustavot i realnosta,ne znam koj ima problemi so svojata nacionalna identifikacija...tokmu taa sloboda na malcinskite prava koja odsekogas postoese vo makedonija zbori za toa kolku nie vsusnost i nemame problemi so svojot identitet,batka(!)...a kaj vas site tie stravovi i represii kon drugi malcinstva,samo zborat za toa kolku bugarite imaat problemi so svojot sopstven identitet i se plasite nekoj slucajno da ne go razvodni(?)...inaku so kje bese ovoj odbranben stav vo odnos na romite i turcite,aman.. mnogu e ednostavno.se obiduvam da ti dadam eden mal evropski tvist vo razmislata,ama tesko ide.stvarno nemate sto da ne naucite ko bugari,ako vaka ko tebe razmisluvaat i povekjeto tvoi sonarodnici(a najverojatno razmisluvaat),samo se povekje i povekje kje se odalecuvame,i najverojatno na takvite kako tebe kje im trebaat uste edno deset godini da svatat deka se bilo za dzabe.mene mi e i onaka seedno.ja kje si prodolzam da bidam makedonec kako i site pred i posle mene. veruvam deka e desislava ubava,samo takvi iminja nie tuka vo makedonija i nemame...mnogu od iminjata sto gi koristat bugarite ne se koristele kaj nas. aj bidi pozdraven
Toa za Sofija i srbite ne go razbrah bash - ako Sofija beshe na 80 km na jugoiztok tochno taja i ke beshe - bez problem! Zamisli - samo predi 50 godini vlezli rusnacite vo Kishinev i te ti gi sega rumancite tam chisti antichki MOLDAVCI - op, trt-mrt kao sakash, problemot znaesh kakov e bil - NIKAKOV! Ne razbrah i kakvo ne ti haresva vo nasiot ustav - Balgarija e drzava samo na balgarite - na nas toa si ni haresva, taka si sakame, a m/u drugoto i na site nashi sojuznici ot EU TAKA im se haresva da pishuva i vo tehnite ustavi (Francuzi, Anglichani, Grci malko preteruvaat - ama toa si e tehna rabota). Za imenata - vidi, Desislava e hubavo ime, a za toa dali go imate ili ne - ne komentiram posto onomastikata kai vas e mnogo specifichna ....(ot izvestno vreme). Samo za informacija - dali kai vas imate ime "Miroslava" - toa mnogo me interesuva?
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako
pa celo vreme bre mislev na ustavot!ne znam kolku konkretno trebase da go kazam toa.mislev deka ednostavno se podrazbira na sto mislam.
Znachi spored tebe "Balgarija e drzava na balgarskata nacija" = ciganite se balgari? [:)][:)][:)][:)] Po istata logika moze i taka : "Nebeto e sinjo" = "Ciganite se balgari", zar ne? Ne se li podrazbira... ednostavno?
angomako noname: Toa za Sofija i srbite ne go razbrah bash - ako Sofija beshe na 80 km na jugoiztok tochno taja i ke beshe - bez problem! Zamisli - samo predi 50 godini vlezli rusnacite vo Kishinev i te ti gi sega rumancite tam chisti antichki MOLDAVCI - op, trt-mrt kao sakash, problemot znaesh kakov e bil - NIKAKOV! ------------------------------------------------ ne te razbiram tuka bas sto sakas da kazes.inaku,pojma nemam kakva e situacijata so moldavija,ama ako taka se osekjaat lugjeto,nivno pravo! ako pak se osekjaat romanci,neka im e isto taka so srekja i toa.iskreno,bas me zabole:) noname: Ne razbrah i kakvo ne ti haresva vo nasiot ustav - Balgarija e drzava samo na balgarite - na nas toa si ni haresva, taka si sakame, a m/u drugoto i na site nashi sojuznici ot EU TAKA im se haresva da pishuva i vo tehnite ustavi (Francuzi, Anglichani, Grci malko preteruvaat - ama toa si e tehna rabota). ---------------------------------------------------- pa iskreno me zabole i za vasiot ustav. toa so ne mi se svigka ne e najverojatno vo ustavot segasen na bugarija,toj sigurno e deklarativno po evropski standardi,vklucitelno i pravata na malcinstvata.samo narodot ne e:) i vo edna konzervativna spanija,kataloncite imaat svoj sopstven katalonski jazik(mnogu slicen so spanskiot),baskite isto taka,itn... noname: Za imenata - vidi, Desislava e hubavo ime, a za toa dali go imate ili ne - ne komentiram posto onomastikata kai vas e mnogo specifichna ....(ot izvestno vreme). Samo za informacija - dali kai vas imate ime "Miroslava" - toa mnogo me interesuva? ------------------------------------------------------------------- kolku za informacija,miroslava tuka mnogu retko,a ako ja ima,togas ili e srbinka,ili e od srbomanite od kaj skopska crna gora,koisto se deklariraat srbi,a doma zborat makedonski. drzavata,liberalna kako sto ni e,im dozvoli da ucat skoli na srpski,i pokraj toa sto nekoj od niv pojma nema od srpski.i mislis deka nekoj toa go zabole vo makedonija?mislis deka idat lugje i im se zakanuvaat kako vo bugarija sto im pravat na tie sto se cuvstvuvaat kako makedonci? ete toa se vika sloboda i pravo na izrazuvanje.procitaj uste ednas...sloboda i pravo na izrazuvanje.(procitaj go nekolku pati)..taka vsusnost i vie tie redovi vo vasiot najnov i proevropski ustav treba da gi tolkuvate vo odnos na tie sto se cuvstvuvaat makedonci.zosto strav i zakani?tolku li ne ste sigurni za vasiot sopstven identitet?tolku li e klimav? realnosta za toa koj kako navistina se odnesuva vo makedonija i bugarija go zbori tokmu sprotivnoto,deka bugarite se tie sto mnogu povekje se plasat od makedonizmot,a ne makedoncite od bugarizmot.tuka uste pred deset godini imase knigi od vanco mihajlov,i sl...nikoj ne se plasi od bugarizam vo makedonija!i site tie sto zele bugarski pasosi,nikoj ne gi pipka!gajle si nemaat,osven po nekoj redok komentar od ponacionalisticki nastroenite ni gragjani.i tolku!nitu sikaniranje,nitu zaebancii. ama povtorno digresija so zborovite na dedo mi, "sekoj bugarin koga kje porasne saka da stane makedonec". e pa batka,nekoi se ragjaat odma so taa privilegija:) ima uste za tebe nadez...aj kazi sto si?po majka ili po tatko si makedonec?:) by the way,silogizmite ti se epten marksisticki:) koga mi zborea deka vo zemjite od istocniot blok celata logicka misla bila podredena na marksistickata logika,sto pravelo od pametni lugje primitivci na mislata,ne mi bese jasno se do skoro. noname: Po istata logika moze i taka : "Nebeto e sinjo" = "Ciganite se balgari", zar ne? Ne se li podrazbira... ednostavno? ------------------------------------------------- ne...po tvojata logika,neboto e sino,a turcite se na gosti vo bugarija...bas ednostavno! ova mora da bilo i za niv novost.i da e taka,i ne ste nekoi dobri domakjini(za razlika od nas:)) aj so zdravje,
graf come on we all know that you can't write. i think you are a puppet. yes someone has his hand up ya ass [:D][:D]
quote:
Originally posted by Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by graf
Batbayan, We are all interested here as to see if you have a brain. can you show us proof please.
Note; I can write. You have seen this. Since, writing requires thinking and you know that I can write; it shows that I can think. Since thinking is a function provided by the brain; it shows that in order to think a brain must exist. Thus, by induction, - I can think - therefore I have a brain. ++ !
Batbayan
quote:
historyofmacedonia.org
4. The roots of the Macedonians are in ancient Macedonia in Europe since 8th century BC. This is the reason why they call themselves Macedonians and not "Slavs" ever since that 8th century BC, including today.
Yeah that is such a strong argument. And wow look at all the historic evidence in it. I have read that website before. Many times. The problem, with historyofmacedonia.org, is that it makes many statements that are proven completly wrong and therefore this site looses credebility for historic accuracy. One example is with Tsar Samuil. Just in case you did not know, Slavs in Russia call themselves Russian, does that mean they are not Slavs? ++ !
VAGOS XXX XXX XXX - Edited by Administrator!
Great_Macedonian Batbayan... Russians are russians.. but when you ask them who are their ancestors, they will tell you that it is the slavs. The same goes for serbians,croatians and many other eastern europeans. When you ask macedonians who are their ancestors, most of them will NOT SAY slavs.. there is obviously a reason for this. I have not bothered to learn much about Tsar Samuil, even though i am from ohrid and i just visited he's fascinating fortress this summer. However though, Macedonians say he was Macedonian. Bulgarians say he was Bulgarian. I know he was from Ohrid, and for starters, what the hell would bulgarians be doing on the western edge of macedonia???. The truth of the matter is that tsar samuil was macedonian. The reason why bulgarian historians call him bulgarian is because they believe that macedonians are bulgarians. Greeks think macedonians are greeks or slavs(they cant make up their minds), many serbs think macedonians are serbs. As you can see, everyone wants to claim the macedonians. So maybe its time that the world stoped fucking macedonia from every angle and realise that the only thing macedonians are is macedonian!! Administrator i think its time you close this topic its becoming rediculous we are just repeating ourselves to bulgar boy, and yet he still doesnt understand that we have given him our views and thats that!
Batbayan My Great_Macedonian friend, please check the maps. http://www.euratlas.net/AHP/grand/gr0900.htm this is simply one link. Tsar Samuil's state was called Bulgaria, he spoke Bulgarian, he was the Bulgarian Monarch in the late 900AD the city of Ohrid was a Bulgarian city with Bulgarian population. You don't have to believe me, just look at the maps for yourselves. There is no such thing as Macedonia on the map of Europe at that time. Feel free to look at any European Atlas. Let me ask you this. If Tsar Samuil was Macedonian then why didn't they call Vasil II the Macedonian-slayer? Check the sources. Every written source from that time calls him Vasil II the Bulgar-slayer. I came here to ask a few simple questions about the history of Macedonian. You are not able to provide me with proper answers. The best that you have done is point me to historyofmacedonia.org, but that site contains texts that are proven false by many sources and therefore it is not accurate and can not be taken into consideration. You want to close the topic? Why? Don't you want to share your history with me? I tought that that is what you wanted me to do. Concrete asked me to listen and so here I am. I am waiting for your answers.
Batbayan Highlander, don't worry about it. Just answer me the questions that I have about Macedonia. ++ !
concrete Batbayan, ne sum mnogu po copy-paste , ama na ova ne mozev da mu odoleam, linkot nekoj od ovde go dade ....nema sto ....Navistina e beskrajna gluposta !!!!! . 1918 1913, . .... . . ... . . , - . , , - . - - - . A vo Grcija ????? Nikoj ne gi spomnuva.....zesko e mlekoto!!!! Mislam deka ako imas i ronka razum ke prestanes i ti da se glupiras.
Divider The Macedonians are not Slavs, they may have some Slav blood in them, but they are not Slavs. There is no need for a proof. Just look at the hatred toward the Macedonians. Nobody likes the Macedonians because they were the first to conquer the entire known world (at the time). However, the Bulgarians are Tatars, descendants from the Tatar horse masters. Their genotype is tataric, their mannerism is tataric, facial features etc. As for the Greeks, a genetic research facility from a joint Italian/Spanish project determined that they have Ethiopian, Egyptian and some Coptic genes and have nothing in common with the Antic Greeks, whereas the Macedonians of today are carrying the genotype of the Antic Macedonians. Also, the Bulgars carry the tataric genotype mixed with some Slavic genes. Let's face it, the Bulgars are looking exactly the same as the Tatars from the steppes of Kazakhstan and Tatarstan, as the Greeks resemble an olive skinned Arabians from the Arabian nights. The truth hurts, I know, but, just because it hurts we should not let the lies dominate!! Pozdrav[8D]
Mravka
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
Batbayan, ne sum mnogu po copy-paste , ama na ova ne mozev da mu odoleam, linkot nekoj od ovde go dade ....nema sto ....Navistina e beskrajna gluposta !!!!! . 1918 1913, . .... . . ... . . , - . , , - . - - - . A vo Grcija ????? Nikoj ne gi spomnuva.....zesko e mlekoto!!!! Mislam deka ako imas i ronka razum ke prestanes i ti da se glupiras.
Drugarce malku si greska so tvoeto zboruvanje.Izgleda citas samo bugarski knigi koi ne se tocni.
Divider , Ĝ!!
Mravka
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
Batbayan, ne sum mnogu po copy-paste , ama na ova ne mozev da mu odoleam, linkot nekoj od ovde go dade ....nema sto ....Navistina e beskrajna gluposta !!!!! . 1918 1913, . .... . . ... . . , - . , , - . - - - . A vo Grcija ????? Nikoj ne gi spomnuva.....zesko e mlekoto!!!! Mislam deka ako imas i ronka razum ke prestanes i ti da se glupiras.
Sakam drugo da ti kazam deka MAKEDONIJA ima najstara istorija na balkanot.Toa sto zboruvas za 1913 g. 1918 g. prijatelce toa e mnogu docna.Mozam da ti zboruvam za mnogu porani vreminja pr. 3 vek rimska imperija i 3-4 vek pne Aleksandar pa se do Perdika.
Divider , , , , , !!
Great_Macedonian Batbayan... listen man. You say that the sources in historyofmacedonia.org are not reliable!?..why do you say this? is it because they dont suite your bulgarian version of history??? How do i know that your stupid map from 900a.d is reliable?.. and just for the record tsar samuil ruled in 1000a.d not 900a.d... when tsar samuil ruled, Bulgaria was barely 150years old, the bulgarian nationality at that time was not even formed yet.. bulgaria was an artificial country made up of tatars and slavs who had not yet mixed with eachother. Macedonia on the otherhand has existed since about 700b.c. The truth is that you call macedonian sources un-reliable, we call bulgarian sources un-reliable. Tsar samuil's army was formed with people mainly from the ohrid region, including my village. Nobody in the history of the region has ever declared themselves a bulgarian. Tsar Samuil was Macedonian, and i dont care what you say, because ever since macedonia was devided in 1913, greece and bulgaria have been stealing macedonia's history.
Snake Bite
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
. , , - . - - - . A vo Grcija ????? Nikoj ne gi spomnuva.....zesko e mlekoto!!!! Mislam deka ako imas i ronka razum ke prestanes i ti da se glupiras.
Prvo toa sto e so crveno odbelezano ne znam sto znaci,ama ke ti kazam deka za istorija si laik.I toa "" ne se pishuva taka tuku se pishuva MAKEDONIJA,a za tvoja informacija Amerikancite ne vikaat MACEDONIA. Makedonija nema da se rascepi jas toa ti go garantiram,zashto poinaku bi dozvolil da me ubijat otkolku da dozvolam toa da se sluci!I ako gi sakash za sojuznici Albancite ne e losho da si zemesh primerok od niv da vidish so kogo si imash rabota,nie so niv i mnogu izdrzivme,ama vie ako gi imashe kako sto se prcate tamu vo Bugarija do sega ti ke si bil praven sunet. Ako dobro razbrav...Bugarsko naselenie vo Grcija???Pa odozgora se cudish?!?!Ako imashe Bugari vo Grcija do sega ke se javea,a jas[?]za niv ne sum cul nikogash. ...i ke te citiram... Mislam deka ako imas i ronka razum ke prestanes i ti da se glupiras
Divider , , !! !! ż, !!
concrete
quote:
Originally posted by Mravka
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
Batbayan, ne sum mnogu po copy-paste , ama na ova ne mozev da mu odoleam, linkot nekoj od ovde go dade ....nema sto ....Navistina e beskrajna gluposta !!!!! . 1918 1913, . .... . . ... . . , - . , , - . - - - . A vo Grcija ????? Nikoj ne gi spomnuva.....zesko e mlekoto!!!! Mislam deka ako imas i ronka razum ke prestanes i ti da se glupiras.
Drugarce malku si greska so tvoeto zboruvanje.Izgleda citas samo bugarski knigi koi ne se tocni.
, , , : , , - . - - - . , !!!!
Batbayan Concrete, you seem to be the most intellegent out of everyone here. It is simply because you don't hide facts and it appears that you are not as afraid of them as most people here. You are right, history is history; it can't be changed but sadly it can be hidden for different periods of time. The process of hiding history is called propaganda.
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
There is no need for a proof.
Proof is always required for a serious topic otherwise it will be dismissed as a child's story.
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Nobody likes the Macedonians because they were the first to conquer the entire known world (at the time).
I don't dislike the people living in Macedonia. However, I am not fond of Serbs or Greeks and their governments.
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
However, the Bulgarians are Tatars, descendants from the Tatar horse masters. Their genotype is tataric, their mannerism is tataric, facial features etc.
Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't even know what the term 'Tatar' means/represents and in what context it is used.
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
the Bulgars are looking exactly the same as the Tatars from the steppes of Kazakhstan and Tatarstan
Once again, read history before you speak. You are posting nonsense. ++ !
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Batbayan... listen man. You say that the sources in historyofmacedonia.org are not reliable!?..why do you say this? is it because they dont suite your bulgarian version of history???
That website is not reliable and that is because it contains material that is not only questionable but proven wrong by many many many sources.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
How do i know that your stupid map from 900a.d is reliable?..
Go here: www.google.com - type: ''Map of Europe 900AD 1000AD'' feel free to browse through as many links as you please. If you want something on paper, go to a library of your choice and search for a map of europe once again. South-Eastern Europe.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian and just for the record tsar samuil ruled in 1000a.d not 900a.d...
Aha, yet another, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are not sure about your own history and can't answer a simple question "Are Macedonians Slavs?" and here you are telling me nonsense about the Bulgarian Tsar Samuil. Tsar Samuil reigned from 976AD to 1014AD!
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
when tsar samuil ruled, Bulgaria was barely 150years old
[:)] my Great_Macedonian friend, please stop wasting everyones time with your ignorance. Have you heard of Great Bulgaria of Kubrat? Don't bother answering this, it is a rhetorical questions. Obviously you are completly lost.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
bulgaria was an artificial country made up of tatars and slavs who had not yet mixed with eachother.
Please inform yourself of history before you start talking about how much you know.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Macedonia on the otherhand has existed since about 700b.c.
Present day Macedonia was recognized as a separate country about a dozen years ago. [:)] simple fact. Here you are talking to me about who's country is artificial.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
The truth is that you call macedonian sources un-reliable, we call bulgarian sources un-reliable.
You are slightly wrong. I call the website historyofmacedonia.org un-realiable. I DO NOT base my predominant knowledge on Bulgarian sources. Western European and American authors are my primary source!
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Tsar samuil's army was formed with people mainly from the ohrid region, including my village.
Tsar Samuil's state is Bulgaria. Ohrid and its population called themselves Bulgarian at that time period.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Nobody in the history of the region has ever declared themselves a bulgarian.
[:)] Are you sure about that? Please inform yourself better then come and post at a history forum.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Tsar Samuil was Macedonian, and i dont care what you say, because ever since macedonia was devided in 1913
You don't have to care as to what I think. You are right, that should be irrelevant for you. But, since this topic is regarding Macedonia directly or indirectly I would hope that you would want to know the actual historic truth. Go gain some accurate knowledge. To avoid pro-Bulgarian, pro-Macedonian, pro-Serbian, pro-Greek propaganda consult Western European and American sources.
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
bulgaria have been stealing macedonia's history.
The history information that I am backed up by is not only Bulgarian. A very large source is Eastern Roman chronologies. Please consult historic facts and not your dreams. ++ !
Misirkov Te prasav da definiras termin "sloveni" za da ne baratas so copy-paste materijali i da manipuliras so toj termin! Potoa pocna da prasuvas "Zosto Bugarite ne bile Sloveni?" Koga ti ukazav/me deka toa e nelogicno prasanje (sliucno kako da prasas zosto zelezoto ne e zlato), pak pocna da vrtis i da suches.
Divider Na prasanjeto: Are Macedonians Slavs ima eden odgovor: NE!! Dali treba na tatarin da mu se davaat dokazi za toa koe e gluv na se i samo saka da go cue toa sto mu odgovara: NE!! Dali treba da prestanat tatarskite maloumni iskrivokolceni verzii na istorijata: DA!! Dali treba tatarite poveke da sli gledaat vo svojot dvor, tamu da si gi sredat nestata i konecno da pocnat da gradat svoja istorija namesto da se kitat so tugji perja: DA!! Sega, malku istoriski fakti koi se odnesuvaat na tatarite: ...In the middle of the 5 th. century after the death of Atilla, the Great Hun Empire began to disintegrate into several Turkic Kingdoms among them in the 7 th. century the Kingdom of Great Bulgaria.This kingdom was short lived and upon the death of its ruler Kubrat Han they splintered into two nations, one under the khan's younger son Asparuh Han moved to what is now known as Bulgaria, associated with the Slavic Tribes and established the Bulgarian Kingdom in 681 AD. The other under the two elder sons Batbay and Kutrag intermingling with Khazar and Alan tribes remained in the Eastern part of the European Plains.A portion of these in the 8 th. century moved to what is now Tatarstan/Bashkirtistan associating themselves with other Turkic and Ugro-Finnic Tribes established the feudal Bulgar State in the IX-X Century... ...The state traded with Central Asia & China. On June 16?, 922AD the Bulgars converted to Islam and the old Turkic Script was replaced by the Arabic Alphabet. The inhabitants were talented in artisanship,agriculture and commerce and had great ability in forming cities. In 1236AD Bulgar was conquered by the Mongolian Batu Khan and became part of the Golden Horde. However it did not lose entirely its independence, resurrected its economy and culture and was first in the moulding of cast iron. The weakening of Bulgar Khanate due to intense fights for leadership prompted many to move west to the more tranquil area of Kazan and in the 1430-40's after the fall of the Golden Horde several Tatar States were formed consisting of the Kazan, Crimean, Kasym, Sibirean and Astrakhan Khanates and these were further complimented by Mari-Udmurts, Kipchaks and Nogais. The XV and the first half of the XVI centuries saw the growth of the Kazan Khanate, also known as Bulgars or Tatars (named for Turkic Tribes forced to fight in the forefront of Genghis Khan's armies)[Historian Ravil Fahretdinov in Azat Hatun, July 84]... ...European Tatars The discrimination of the separate stems included under the name is still far from completion. The following subdivisions, however, may be regarded as established: Kazafi Tatars The Kazafi Tatars are descendants of the Kipchaks settled on the Volga in the 13th century, where they mingled with survivors of the old Bulgarians (NB! the most of Bulgaria population survived: they hadn't keept their language, but we can say, that Kazan Tatars are 'Bulgars')... Prezemeno od: the publications of the Russian Geographical Society and its branches; the Russian Etnographicheskiy Sbornik; the Izvestia of the Moscow society of the amateurs of natural science; the works of the Russian ethnographical congresses; Kostrov's researches on the Siberian Tatars in the memoirs of the Siberian branch of the geographical society; Radlov's Reise durch den Altai, Aus Sibirien', "Picturesque Russia" (Zhivopisnaya Rossiya); Semenov's and Potanin's " Supplements " to Ritter's Asien; Harkavi's report to the congress at Kazan; Hartakhai's "Hist, of Crimean Tatars," in Vyestnik Evropy, 1866 and 1867; "Katchinsk Tatars," in Izvestia Russ. Geogr. Soc., xx., 1884.
Divider Plus, proveri vo Websters dictionary pod Bulgars!! Ponatamu, proveri kade sakas Batbayan, ama osven vo kvazibugarski spisi, nikade na drugo mesto nema da najdes potvrda na tvoite teorii. Samo na nasite. kako sto rekov: truth hurts, zatoa pocnete da si gradite svoja istorija, dosta kradete od nasata, dosta se kitite so tugji perja.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Plus, proveri vo Websters dictionary pod Bulgars!! Ponatamu, proveri kade sakas Batbayan, ama osven vo kvazibugarski spisi, nikade na drugo mesto nema da najdes potvrda na tvoite teorii. Samo na nasite. kako sto rekov: truth hurts, zatoa pocnete da si gradite svoja istorija, dosta kradete od nasata, dosta se kitite so tugji perja.
Plus a zashto ne proverish pod Bulgarians? Neshto tezko li e ili ne sakash? Kakto i da e - dali ispagja deka nekoi tatari se potomci na balgari ili ispagja obratnoto? I drugo - dali tie tatari se narod koj sto zivee na Balkanite? I dali godinite koga se sozdadeni nekade na okolo 6 000 km. ot Balkanite tie tatari ne se malko mnogo SLED kato site balkanski deneshni narodi se otdavna formirani?
Divider Isto i pod Bulgarians, tatarce kleto. ...mixed origin, unkown ethincity...
Divider ...country SE Europe on Black Sea; a republic capital Sofia area 42,823 square miles (110,912 square kilometers), population 8,466,000 mainly tatars... Sega what? A tatarlaana!!
Divider Bulgar Encyclopdia Britannica Article Page 1 of 1 also called Bulgarian, member of a people known in eastern European history during the Middle Ages. One branch of this people was an ancestor of the modern Bulgarians. The Bulgars probably originated as a Turkic tribe of Central Asia and arrived in the European steppe west of the Volga River with the Huns about AD 370; retreating with the Huns, they resettled about 460 in an arc of country north and
Divider Main Entry: Macedonia Pronunciation: "ma-s&-'dO-nE-&, -ny& Usage: geographical name 1 region S Europe in Balkan Peninsula in NE Greece, the former Yugoslav section of Macedonia, & SW Bulgaria including territory of ancient kingdom of Macedonia (or Mac.e.don /'ma-s&-d&n, -"dn/ capital Pella) 2 country S central Balkan Peninsula; a federated republic of Yugoslavia 1946-92 capital Skopje area 9928 square miles (25,714 square kilometers), population 2,063,000 Main Entry: Macedonian Pronunciation: "ma-s&-'dO-ny&n, -nE-&n Function: noun a native or inhabitant of Macedonia
highlander ... Batbayan Batbayani , , ... , .
concrete Ej , kakva cest Batbayan,he,he, batali cetki ,glup sum ti jas , da ne moze da se izmeri. Tuku vreme e i ti da pocnes da ucis , a nekoi drugi (Snake bite,Mravka itn.) da gi citaat po vnimatelno pisanijata na drugite , a ne samo sebe si da se slusaat. Ovde se razgovara ili samo monolozi se pravat , kade nikoj nikogo ne bremca???? Ej da ne zaboravam Batbayan: You don't even know what the term 'Tatar' means/represents and in what context it is used. Aj poleka , bez nervoza objasni mi , navistina me interesira ,a verojatno i mnogu drugi ovde.
concrete Zaboraviv nesto okolu Samoil. Gledam se fativte za nego. Nabroj te gi iminjata na negovite brakja??? Pa posle toa napisete = bugarin , dali nesto epten ne vi stima ???? Na sto vi asocira poveke???? Pa pobarajte vo Biblijata vo koj kontekst se spomnuva Makedonija (samo na edno mesto , ama i toa e dovolno, drugite, so eden isklucokne se ni spomnati ). A koga ke pominete po patot kaj Sv.Erazmo sete te se na toa. I na faktot deka aktuelniot papa koga odese na adzilak po stapkite na svojot imenjak samo na toa mesto ne dojde , sto duri i tie okolu nego mu go zamerija.
Snake Bite
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
Ej , kakva cest Batbayan,he,he,glup sum ti jas , da ne moze da se izmeri.
He!He!He! A...za pocetok,mozes li ti da se slushesh sto zboruvash?[:o)] A i pravo da ti kazam,vo pravo si.[;)]
Mravka
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
Ej , kakva cest Batbayan,he,he, batali cetki ,glup sum ti jas , da ne moze da se izmeri. Tuku vreme e i ti da pocnes da ucis , a nekoi drugi (Snake bite,Mravka itn.) da gi citaat po vnimatelno pisanijata na drugite , a ne samo sebe si da se slusaat. Ovde se razgovara ili samo monolozi se pravat , kade nikoj nikogo ne bremca???? Ej da ne zaboravam Batbayan: You don't even know what the term 'Tatar' means/represents and in what context it is used. Aj poleka , bez nervoza objasni mi , navistina me interesira ,a verojatno i mnogu drugi ovde.
Conkrete da ne si slucajno vo zabluda.Ajde da gi ostavime knigite bidejki sekakvi knigi kruzat okolu nas i da ne se pravime koj od koj e poveke nacitan. Da odime na istoriski istrazuvanja i muzej arhiv posebno za sekoj grad , togas ke pravime iskren muabet.A ako te interesira mozam da ti pustam sliki sto ima otkrieno vo Makedonija i koe vreme e toa a istorijata sama ke si dojde na svoe mesto.Te cenam vo razgovorite i mislam deka treba poserjozno da me svatis.Isto taka gledam deka dobro go poznavas makedonskiot jazik sto me raduva.Koga sme kaj jazikot da ti kazam deka makedonskiot jazik e najstar ovde na balkanot bidejki ovde e najdeno kamena ploca od 4-5 vek pne.vo koe mozeme da procitame i razbereme.Zaklucok od ova e deka i slovenskiot jazik e napraven od makedonskiot bidejki samo e zbogaten i prifaten.Mnogu pozdrav i ...
concrete Mravka,drago mi e . Jas , ova iskreno go velam, se smetam samo za amater.Sto se odnesuva do istorijata ,taa poveke me interesira od matematicka strana ,mnogu godini razvivam eden algoritam so cel da simuliram varijanti na rasprostranuvanje , no ajde toa sega nema veza. Koga sme kaj kameni ploci , denes veke napisav, me interesira dali nekoj ima informacija kade moze da se najde fotografija na plocata so pomos na koja onoj francuzot , sega ne mozam da se setam na imeto , gi desifrilal egipetskite herilioglifi. nesto so dovolna rezolucija da moze da se zumira. Do sega ne mi uspealo da go najdam toa ni vo literatura ni na internet.
concrete
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Quote: Concrete Na sto vi asocira poveke???? Pa pobarajte vo Biblijata vo koj kontekst se spomnuva Makedonija (samo na edno mesto , ama i toa e dovolno, drugite, so eden isklucokne se ni spomnati ). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Concrete bracko, imas greska.. Makedonija nee spomnata vo biblijata ednas. Macedonia vo biblijata e spomnata 21 pati.
Ke me teras da brojam.Ako gi znaes mestata daj pomogni. A jas pak kako papagal:toa iminjata na brakjata na Samoil???
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Sega, malku istoriski fakti koi se odnesuvaat na tatarite: ...In the middle of the 5 th. century after the death of Atilla, the Great Hun Empire began to disintegrate into several Turkic Kingdoms among them in the 7 th. century the Kingdom of Great Bulgaria.This kingdom was short lived and upon the death of its ruler Kubrat Han they splintered into two nations, one under the khan's younger son Asparuh Han moved to what is now known as Bulgaria, associated with the Slavic Tribes and established the Bulgarian Kingdom in 681 AD. The other under the two elder sons Batbay and Kutrag intermingling with Khazar and Alan tribes remained in the Eastern part of the European Plains.A portion of these in the 8 th. century moved to what is now Tatarstan/Bashkirtistan associating themselves with other Turkic and Ugro-Finnic Tribes established the feudal Bulgar State in the IX-X Century... ...
Seriozno prasanje. Dali gorniot "dokaz" ne potvrduva tezata deka bugarite se AZERBAIDJANCI?
Great_Macedonian Batbayan... You say that i cant proove to you with facts if macedonians are slavs?.. i think me and the others on this forum have prooved to you more than once that we,macedonians are not slavs.. i even sent you to historyofmacedonia.org and you refused to agree with their statements,so thats your problem. You dont even know bulgarian history and yet you are trying toi tell macedonians that they dont know theirs??? If you found western sources which support your theory of Tsar Samuil as a "bulgarian", that doesnt mean that those sources are reliable. History is a theory itself... history has been re-written to suite the powerfull nations of this world. As we all know current day macedonia is not powerfull, so we macedonians do not need the world to teach us about our own history because we know our history. I can assure you, while some "bulgar-wanna-be macedonians exist" they are very small in number. About 300 people in macedonia declared themselves as bulgarians in 2002. Tsar Smuil was Macedonian, like it or not Batbayan,thats the truth. You came here wanting to know if bulgarians are slavs?? we said what we had to say on that topic. You also wanted to know if macedonians are slavs.. we told you that we are not. If you dont agree with us than leave this forum. If you think we have not provided enough proof for you to believe our statements, then im sorry but you dont have to agree with us. I see that you entered this forum as a "friend" of the macedonians.. but you have started to deny everything we tell you about macedonian history. You say that you dont like the governments of belgrade and athens but you have "nothing against the people of macedonia"?? it seems to me like you have alot against the people of macedonia and against the macedonians in general.
Great_Macedonian Quote: Concrete Na sto vi asocira poveke???? Pa pobarajte vo Biblijata vo koj kontekst se spomnuva Makedonija (samo na edno mesto , ama i toa e dovolno, drugite, so eden isklucokne se ni spomnati ). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Concrete bracko, imas greska.. Makedonija nee spomnata vo biblijata ednas. Macedonia vo biblijata e spomnata 21 pati.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Quote: Concrete Na sto vi asocira poveke???? Pa pobarajte vo Biblijata vo koj kontekst se spomnuva Makedonija (samo na edno mesto , ama i toa e dovolno, drugite, so eden isklucokne se ni spomnati ). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Concrete bracko, imas greska.. Makedonija nee spomnata vo biblijata ednas. Macedonia vo biblijata e spomnata 21 pati.
Ke me teras da brojam.Ako gi znaes mestata daj pomogni. A jas pak kako papagal:toa iminjata na brakjata na Samoil???
David, Moisei, Aaron, II pokolenie: Ivan-Vladislav, Gavril - Radomir, III pokolenie Petar Deljan, Aron, Alusijan, Presijan (Persijan)(isto ime i na balgarski KAN 836-852 i na balgarski boljarin ot 870 g.) IV pokolenie Anna Komnina, dneshen potomuk: Simeon II Saxe Koburg Gotta oshte imena na balgari v izvorite: - David - BG patriarh 1018 g.; - David - sled ruskoto napadenie na Konstantinopol 1015 g. naznachen za strateg na Samos; - Aaron - mitropolit na Preslav - XII-XIII v.; - Moisei i Aaron - monasi, prez 898 (919) osnovavat manastir "Sveti Georgi"; - Vitleem - sin na car Kalojan; - Ilija - boljarin 869(870) - chlen na crkovna delegacija v Konstantinopol; - Jeremija - avtor na apokrifi (vtora polovina na X v.); - Jov - pisatel ot XIV v.; - Josif - arhiepiskop prez 870 g. - Simeon - car (893-927); - Jakov - sin na knez Boris-Mihail; - Jakov - monah ot Belovo (XIV v.)
concrete David, Moisei, Aaron,kumot im ili bil religiozno zabegan ili???? Ima edna druga prikazna ,ama taa ic ne se vklopuva vo podolnoto , malku nare'deno rodoslovie. II pokolenie: Ivan-Vladislav, Gavril - Radomir, III pokolenie Petar Deljan, Aron, Alusijan, Presijan (Persijan)(isto ime i na balgarski KAN 836-852 i na balgarski boljarin ot 870 g.) IV pokolenie Anna Komnina, dneshen potomuk: Simeon II Saxe Koburg Gottahe,he , ambiciozno nema sto , koga se pretendira na nesto daj barem usul da ima !!!! oshte imena na balgari v izvorite: - David - BG patriarh 1018 g.; - David - sled ruskoto napadenie na Konstantinopol 1015 g. naznachen za strateg na Samos; - Aaron - mitropolit na Preslav - XII-XIII v.; - Moisei i Aaron - monasi, prez 898 (919) osnovavat manastir "Sveti Georgi"; - Vitleem - sin na car Kalojan; - Ilija - boljarin 869(870) - chlen na crkovna delegacija v Konstantinopol; - Jeremija - avtor na apokrifi (vtora polovina na X v.); - Jov - pisatel ot XIV v.; - Josif - arhiepiskop prez 870 g. - Simeon - car (893-927); - Jakov - sin na knez Boris-Mihail; - Jakov - monah ot Belovo (XIV v.)
noname
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
David, Moisei, Aaron,kumot im ili bil religiozno zabegan ili???? Ima edna druga prikazna ,ama taa ic ne se vklopuva vo podolnoto , malku nare'deno rodoslovie. II pokolenie: Ivan-Vladislav, Gavril - Radomir, III pokolenie Petar Deljan, Aron, Alusijan, Presijan (Persijan)(isto ime i na balgarski KAN 836-852 i na balgarski boljarin ot 870 g.) IV pokolenie Anna Komnina, dneshen potomuk: Simeon II Saxe Koburg Gottahe,he , ambiciozno nema sto , koga se pretendira na nesto daj barem usul da ima !!!! oshte imena na balgari v izvorite: - David - BG patriarh 1018 g.; - David - sled ruskoto napadenie na Konstantinopol 1015 g. naznachen za strateg na Samos; - Aaron - mitropolit na Preslav - XII-XIII v.; - Moisei i Aaron - monasi, prez 898 (919) osnovavat manastir "Sveti Georgi"; - Vitleem - sin na car Kalojan; - Ilija - boljarin 869(870) - chlen na crkovna delegacija v Konstantinopol; - Jeremija - avtor na apokrifi (vtora polovina na X v.); - Jov - pisatel ot XIV v.; - Josif - arhiepiskop prez 870 g. - Simeon - car (893-927); - Jakov - sin na knez Boris-Mihail; - Jakov - monah ot Belovo (XIV v.)
Kumot im? Ne znam, no moze bi ima vrska so kumovite na ovie: - David - BG patriarh 1018 g.; - David - sled ruskoto napadenie na Konstantinopol 1015 g. naznachen za strateg na Samos; - Aaron - mitropolit na Preslav - XII-XIII v.; - Moisei i Aaron - monasi, prez 898 (919) osnovavat manastir "Sveti Georgi"; - Vitleem - sin na car Kalojan; - Ilija - boljarin 869(870) - chlen na crkovna delegacija v Konstantinopol; - Jeremija - avtor na apokrifi (vtora polovina na X v.); - Jov - pisatel ot XIV v.; - Josif - arhiepiskop prez 870 g. - Simeon - car (893-927); - Jakov - sin na knez Boris-Mihail; - Jakov - monah ot Belovo (XIV v.) Plus uste eden - JOASAF - pisatel ot XIV vek i plus uste mnogo.....kumovi. Za genealogijata na rodot Saxe Koburg Gotta - spravka Cambridge genealogy studies, no vrskata so vizantiskite Comnenus e dokumentirana.
noname
quote:
dneshen potomuk: Simeon II Saxe Koburg Gottahe,he , ambiciozno nema sto , koga se pretendira na nesto daj barem usul da ima !!!!
Margrave Heinrich the Exalted of Meissen married Constanza of Austria, daughter of the founders of Austria (1156) Duke Heinrich Jasomirgott Babenberg and Princess Theodora of the Byzantine Imperial House of Comnenus. http://free2.surffreedom.com/nph-free.cgi/010100A/http/home.earthlink.net/~priadvcom/eBay/Family.html
Great_Macedonian Concrete izgleda pogresno sum te razbral.. Sakav da kazam deka imeto macedonia e spomnato 21 pati vo biblijata. Za tsar Samuil navistina neznam mnogu ama znam deka bil makedonec
concrete Nema sto , mnogu nobl familija ,ama pak ona judejskite iminja mi go matat umot. I eden dijalog na Pavle i Petar. A ova drugoto sto ke naracas toa ke dobies. Simeon II Saxe Koburg Gottahe, moze i da e toa sto veli deka e , ama domicilen sigurno ne e.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
Nema sto , mnogu nobl familija ,ama pak ona judejskite iminja mi go matat umot. I eden dijalog na Pavle i Petar. A ova drugoto sto ke naracas toa ke dobies. Simeon II Saxe Koburg Gottahe, moze i da e toa sto veli deka e , ama domicilen sigurno ne e.
Ne ti razbrav bash "poentava".......... Imam spisok ot 685 imena na balgari registrirani m/u VII i XIV vek, 1. Prvi po kolicina se (normalno), imenata so slavjanski proizhod; 2. Na vtoro mesto se so.... grcki proizhod (stvarno uzasno mnogo); 3. Na treto mesto se so ....evreiski proizhod (zabelezi deka ne spomnuvam zenski evreiski imena - Sara, Marija, Anna i t.n., a gi ima nemalko....) i t.n. ako te interesuvaat ushte nekoi (specifichni evreiski iminja vo konkreten period) so nekoe znachenie v nashata istorija - poveli! Za "ova drugoto" poima neam sto ti e na pamet????? Za car Simeon II isto taka poima neam sto ON "veli deka e" posto chovekot takvi neshta NE diskutira. Za toa EDNOSTAVNO postojat dokumenti. A dali e "domicilen" - e pa za eden Saxe-Koburg-Gotta ne li mislish deka "domicilen" e NAI-SMESHNIOT poim vo sveto?? Sto tochno sakash da kazesh?
Misirkov Kazanoto nema naucna vrednost. Sto vsusnost se celi so nazivot "judejski iminja"? Etimologijata na ovie imija za onomasticarite ne budi nekoj poseben interes bidejkji za niv taa e prodzirna. Vo naukata za imenuvanjeto, licnite iminja se delat na dve osnovni grupi: NARODNI (respektivno vo nasiot slucaj "slovenski") i KALENDARSKI (respektivno crkovni). Makedonskiot narod dobro gi zacuval, se do nasi denovi, iminjata sto imaat narodna osnova za razlika od nekoi drugi narodi kako na primer Hrvatite kaj koi so poznatiot Tridentski koncil (vo XVI vek) bila zabraneta nivnata upotreba. Nasata sostojba glavno se objasnuva so pogolemata tolerantnost na pravoslavnata crkva. Primeri za narodni iminja: Milica, Careva, Zlatica, itn. Primeri za kalendarski iminja: Elisaveta, Frosa, Pantelej, itn. .
concrete Seto toa sto velite e tocno,so edna mala zabeleska: site nie sme proizvod na 20 vek i nasiot mentalen sklop e takov kakov sto e. Da skratam,problemite treba da se gledaat niz prizmata na soodvetnoto vreme. Toa e mnogusloen problem ,onaka ednostavno receno. A za genezata na aktuelnite lokalni ,balkanski , carski i kralski lozi , ama ic ne sakam , barem jas , da pravam muabet, koj si saka ubavo Imam veke definiran i potvrden stav i sto se odnesuva do mene , gotovo. Ni malku ne mi preci koga nekoj si ima drugi gledanja , nitu mislam da sporam so toa. Ni na kraj pamet ne mi e da se somnevam vo moralnite kvaliteti na gospodinot Simeon II Saxe Koburg Gottahe ,koj kako licnost si e par exelans. Ili da kazam nesto za oficijalnite dokumenti. Ne daj Boze !!! Istoto i za naukata na imenuvanjeto. Onaka beznacajno , samo za svoja dusa i vo svojot kompjuter, si sporam so evidentnata virtuelna konstrukcija na istorijata , koja e zaprepastuvacki do besvest detalizirana , a vsusnost e samo ubava prikazna vo odnos na sto romanite na Tolkien se amaterska bleda imitacija. Najgolemata ,tesko soborlivata lazga , sekogas se sostoi od 98% vistina!!! A za domicilnosta , he,he , nema vrska ,samo onaka,mi izleta.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Kazanoto nema naucna vrednost. Sto vsusnost se celi so nazivot "judejski iminja"? Etimologijata na ovie imija za onomasticarite ne budi nekoj poseben interes bidejkji za niv taa e prodzirna. Vo naukata za imenuvanjeto, licnite iminja se delat na dve osnovni grupi: NARODNI (respektivno vo nasiot slucaj "slovenski") i KALENDARSKI (respektivno crkovni). Makedonskiot narod dobro gi zacuval, se do nasi denovi, iminjata sto imaat narodna osnova za razlika od nekoi drugi narodi kako na primer Hrvatite kaj koi so poznatiot Tridentski koncil (vo XVI vek) bila zabraneta nivnata upotreba. Nasata sostojba glavno se objasnuva so pogolemata tolerantnosty na pravoslavnata crkva. Primeri za narodni iminja: Milica, Careva, Zlatica, itn. Primeri za kalendarski iminja: Elisaveta, Frosa, Pantelej, itn.
Ne znam koe trebva da ima nauchna vrednost. I za judeiskite imena ne znam. Toa koe sto znam se nekoi primeri na chisto evreiski imena povrzani so srednovekovnata istorija na Balgaria. A takvi se nemalko dori. Vo nekoi sluchai (napr. carica Sara) stanuva zbor za evrei, no poveketo pati evreiski imena imat i obicnite balgari (isto i duhovnicite i upravnicite). Pricinata e poveke ot jasna. A za narodni i "kalendarni" imena me interesira dali t.n. "kalendarni" imena otsekogash bili takvi ili prvo bili narodni i ako e taka na koi narodi bili "narodni"?
Batbayan Dictionary? Encyclopedia? Bible? That is where you obtain history from? That will definitely explain the nonsense replies. The history that you post about ancient Macedonia is correct, logical and factual. But you seem to forget a very clear fact. The name 'Macedonia' has not been on the map of Europe for more than 2000 years. The word 'Tatar' does not define an ethnos. It is a word by which the Mongols called all the people that they conqured. Notice that the name Tatar becomes popular after the Mongolian conquest. Up until present day the term 'Tatar' has been and still is used by politicians to manipulate history.
concrete OK,OK ,you are right. I have not more time ,enjoy your nice dream. Dictionary? Encyclopedia? Bible? Not , I regularly use a very old crystal ball !!!
Misirkov Zborot bese deka ako se crkovno-religionzi iminjata ne znaci deka nositelite na tie iminja se Evrei, zatoa rekov deka e providno kako argument da se upotrebuva (sto cesto se pravi na interenet). Logicno, narodni iminja se na narodot/narodite koi prestiojuvaat na odredeni prostori. ;-) Nekoi narodi nametnuvale svoja verzija na iminjata - kako na primer Ahejskata (grckata) verzija na SITE makedonski iminja vo pisanite izvori (pa shodno Aleksandros namesto Aleksandar). Jasno e deka narodnite iminja se odraz na uslovno receno na dolgata istorija i hristijanskata civilizacija (so primesi na anti-latinizacija za vreme na Rimskata imperija) i se poprvi od kalendarskite. Nekoi iminja se vkorenuvaat iako se od drugi narodi. Na primer, vo Makedonija ima broj lugje so ime "Krum" iako toj e bugarski zavojuvac. Interesno e pak kako naciite dobivaat ime. Ako kolektivnoto ime na eden narod se prifati od edna generacija, togas stanuva "dusha" na identifikacija za vtorata generacija sto go nasleduva iako toa moze da se menuva nasilno ili dobrovolno. Misirkov veli deka nas kolektivnoto ime vo istorijata tri pati ni e menuvano vo "Sloveni," "Bugari," i najposle vo "Srbi". Dokolku licnite imninja se sankcionirani so drzavni i crkovni akti, nacionalnite dosega ne se reglulirani so medjunarodni normi, multilateralni ili bilateralni spogodbi, duri ni so vnatresni dzavni akti. Vo Grcija se polaga posebno vnimanie na davanje grcki iminja na makedonskite deca - za sto posebno ukjaza Human Rights Watch. Inaku vo istorijata, edinstevno Povelbata na OON vo tockata za pravoto na samoopredeluvanje na INDIVIDUITE, GRUPITE i NARODITE, sto podrazbira pravo da izberat i nosat ime, prestavuvba ednistvena medjunarodna norma do sega vo istorijata vo vrska so kolektivno ime na narodite. Znaci ima korelacija medju 4 povrzani kategorii: individualni iminja (narodni ili kalendarski), ime na zemja, na nacija i na narod.
concrete Misirkov , normalno e toa sto go kazuvas so iminjata ,a sigurno ima i nekoja debela oficijalna nauka za toa.(ne sum vo toj biznis). Od druga strana nikoj ne mu dava ime na deteto na primer Elvis, tuku taka.(Mislam na Kralot ,he,he!!!!) Nitu pak grckata vlada go pravela i go pravi toa od nekoe hobi . No nejse da e, ne mi se pravi muabet denovive ,me fati nekoja melanholicna depresivnost gledajki kako nasive dustabanlii dobiena partija ja pretvaraat vo bedno remi. Po jubileen 2522 pat.
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
OK,OK ,you are right. I have not more time ,enjoy your nice dream. Dictionary? Encyclopedia? Bible? Not , I regularly use a very old crystal ball !!!
You don't like the fact that the name Macedonia has been off the map of Europe for more than 2000 years. It has been a name used to call a region within the different empires that possed the land. Then a little over 10 years ago, ancient-Macedonia, magically re-appears and makes propostrus claims that are not backed up by any historic fact. You tell me that the present day language spoken in Macedonia is the same as the ancient-Macedonian language? It appears that you are the ones dreaming. Concrete the answers that I have been provided with so far really do seem like they were derived from a crystal ball. Dictionaries and encyclopedias are modernized sources. They present facts that have been twisted up and manipulated over that past 100 years. As far as the Bible goes... that is not a history book, just to refresh your memory. The only way to build your own personal perspective is to read facts only. Don't focus on theories, personal interpretations and manipulations. To obtain real and adiquite knowledge you can not focus on one source. You can't focus on two. You need more... I live in a region that is called Canada. Maybe, soon we will start calling the language in this region 'Canadian'.
Misirkov The name Macedonia has CONTINUALLY been in use in at least the past 2500 years! This is a historical fact! .
Misirkov Tocno, coveckata glupost nema granici odnosno kraj. BatBayan, kazi zosto vo "Hronografijata" na Teofan Ispovednik pisuva: "Vo taa godina [688 godina] zavojuva Justinijan Vtori protiv Sklavinija i Bugarija."[;)]
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
The name Macedonia has CONTINUALLY been in use in at least the past 2500 years! This is a historical fact!
The name Macedonia has definitely existed in history continueously, but it has only exhisted as a name. A name of a territory/region in the balkans. There is no such thing as a 'Macedonian' state on the map for more than 2000 years. It re-appeared yesterday.
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
BatBayan, kazi zosto vo "Hronografijata" na Teofan Ispovednik pisuva: "Vo taa godina [688 godina] zavojuva Justinijan Vtori protiv Sklavinija i Bugarija."
I don't understand what you are asking exactly. Please ellaborate on this. Misirkov, It is also a historic fact that the Serbs slaughtered anyone who called themself a Bulgarian. It is also a fact that Bulgarians used the artificial name 'Macedonians' to avoid such persecutions. It is also a fact that every year 2000 Macedonians obtain Bulgarian citizenship. Please look at all the facts. Concrete, To say Macedonian is to say American, Canadian, Australian. There is no ethnos that represents the name. The people are named by the name of the region. Up until 1944, Macedonian used to be an adjective designating the region of Macedonia with no relation whatsoever to ancient-Macedonia. This is also a fact. I came here asking a few simple questions. I don't understand why we are discussing issues of the past 100 years. I was interested in discussing events from 600AD-900AD.
concrete I was interested in discussing events from 600AD-900AD !!! Sto ima vo toj period tolku znacajno po tebe za diskusija. Daj da vidime , mozebi nie sme slepi ???? It is also a fact that every year 2000 Macedonians obtain Bulgarian citizenship. Please look at all the facts. He,he !!! Tamu li e zajakot??? So akcent na citizenship!!!! E uste da mi go objasnis znacenjeto na toj poim vo periodot 600AD-900AD ke slusam mnogu vnimatelno!!!! Inaku proveri i nesto drugo na taa tema: kolku pak bugarski "citizenship" si odat za da zemat na primer canadski i etc., ti verojatno veke si go izvrvrl toj pat , uspesno se nadevam??? Sto bre mesas babi i zabi. It is also a fact that Bulgarians used the artificial name 'Macedonians' to avoid such persecutions. E ovaa ti e dobra teza ,samo odi i kazi im ja na moite gevgelicani , tie za toa imaat edna mnogu dobra : ovoj e ili mnogu ...... ili ..... mu e mnogu golem!!!
Misirkov --------------------------------------------------------------------- BatBayan: "The name Macedonia has definitely existed in history continueously, but it has only exhisted as a name." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Kako sto rekov, coveckata glupost nema granici. BatBayan, ti ja posociv "Hronografijata" od Teofan Ispovednik (poznat uste kako Konfesor) kako istoriski dokaz od prv red. A ti ja posociv bidejkji prasa zosto Bugarite ne bile "sloveni". Eve sto veli Teofan otkako imperatorot Konstantin Petti vo 758 godina gi pokoril Sklavinite vo Makedonija: "Vo taa godina Konstantin gi ograbi Skalvinite niz Makedonija, a ostanatite gi pokori......Vo mesec oktomvri, edinaesti indikt (773), Imperatorot primi vest od Bugarija od negovite tajni prijateli deka bugarskiot gospodar (Han Telerig) isprakja 12.000 vojnici i boili za da ja porobat Berzitija i Berzitite vo Bugarija da gi prenese..." (Hronografija, str. 15, 43)
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
--------------------------------------------------------------------- BatBayan: "The name Macedonia has definitely existed in history continueously, but it has only exhisted as a name." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Kako sto rekov, coveckata glupost nema granici. BatBayan, ti ja posociv "Hronografijata" od Teofan Ispovednik (poznat uste kako Konfesor) kako istoriski dokaz od prv red. A ti ja posociv bidejkji prasa zosto Bugarite ne bile "sloveni". Eve sto veli Teofan otkako imperatorot Konstantin Petti vo 758 godina gi pokoril Sklavinite vo Makedonija: "Vo taa godina Konstantin gi ograbi Skalvinite niz Makedonija, a ostanatite gi pokori......Vo mesec oktomvri, edinaesti indikt (773), Imperatorot primi vest od Bugarija od negovite tajni prijateli deka bugarskiot gospodar (Han Telerig) isprakja 12.000 vojnici i boili za da ja porobat Berzitija i Berzitite vo Bugarija da gi prenese..." (Hronografija, str. 15, 43)
Misirkov, a moze li da gi pocituvame i drugite znacaini vizantiiski izvori ot toa vreme? - Eve naprimer Lav Gramatik - "Chronografija", a godinata e 813 g.: "Sled kato Krum prevzel ODRIN, toi prekaral otvud Dunav i poselil pri rekata mnogo blagorodni makedonci......toi premestil ottam 12 000 maze, bez da se brojat zenite i decata...i tai makedoncite se otchajali, napravili svoi vozdove Canc i Kordil....." (originalot e na grcki) - Gramota na imperator Roman II, a godinata e 960 g. "Na manastira Joan Kolovu (Halkidiki) beha podareni 40 osvobodeni parici........Tija parici sa ot zaselenite tam slavjani-balgari." (originalot e na grcki) i uste mnogo....
Misirkov Toa pogore so vasata manipulacija na terminite e providna rabota. Zatoa i mu rekov na kolegata ti so turksko ime "BatBayan" da definira a ne da spamira. Mesate ime na podanici (na drzavi, carstva ili temi) so etnosi i grupi! Debata se vodi i denes zosto terminite se izmeshani, a vie gi politizirate. Vo 12 vek, spored Zonara, kako "Bugari" bile narekuvani site podanici na Bugarskoto carstvo vkl. gi Armencite, Vlsite, Hrvatite, Srbite i Makedoncite. Pop Dukljanin "Slovenite" i Bugarite gi narekuval "Goti" (?!), a Lav Djakon zitelite na Samuilovoto Carstvo gi narekuval "Mizi". No nema nikakva dilema deka Makedonci i Makedonija postoele, sto odi kako direktna kontra na bugarskata teza deka demek nemalo Makedonija i Makedonci. Eve dokaz: Konstantin VII Profirogen (913-959) vo svojot opis za voeno-administrativnite edinici ("temi") okolu 943 godina veli: "Temata Strimon bila vo sostav na Makedonija i ottogas za nea ne stanalo zbor kako za tema, tuku e vbrojuvana vo rang na klisura, namesto Makedonci ja drzat Skiti, bidejkji niv Justinijan Rinotmet gi naselil na brdata na Strimon i na preminite na klisurata." .
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Toa pogore so vasata manipulacija na terminite e providna rabota. Zatoa i mu rekov na kolegata ti so turksko ime "BatBayan" da definira a ne da spamira. Mesate ime na podanici (na drzavi, carstva ili temi) so etnosi i grupi! Debata se vodi i denes zosto terminite se izmeshani, a vie gi politizirate. Vo 12 vek, spored Zonara, kako "Bugari" bile narekuvani site podanici na Bugarskoto carstvo vkl. gi Armencite, Vlsite, Hrvatite, Srbite i Makedoncite. Pop Dukljanin "Slovenite" i Bugarite gi narekuval "Goti" (?!), a Lav Djakon zitelite na Samuilovoto Carstvo gi narekuval "Mizi".
Ne razbrah tochno koja e "nasha" manipulacija na terminite i s kakvo e po-razlichna ot izvorite tvoi? Da vidim za "site podanici" vo eden izvor kogato (zabelezi) voobste NEMALO BG carstvo: XI v. - "Strategion", KEKAVMENOS (originalot e na grcki): " ....balgarskiot vladetel Samuil chesto opitval tu s voina, tu s hitrost da pravzeme Larisa.....Nikolica postroil tam stana si, subral VLASITE i balgarite, koito ziveeli nablizo i taka ......." Kade e manipulacijata, kojato e "razlichna" ot manipulacijata pri Teofan? Tochno tvojata pozicija, deka Zonara narekuval site balkanski narodi balgari e chista manipulacija uste poveke sto ne davash argument i dokaz vo nie eden izvor. No vo sekoi sluchai da citirame Zonara: "....voinici, kato se izplashili, vostanali i izbrali za svoi vozd.....Tihomir, PO ROD BALGARIN i go provazglasisli za car na Balgarija.......A kogato uznal za vostanieto.....izbegal ot svoja dom...i kato se preoblekol v ARMENSKA nosija.......prestoril se, che otiva v lagera.." (izgleda deka za kutriot Zonara armenci i balgari ne bili isto ili ne e taka?) Koi drugi ostanaha? "Letopis Popa Dukjanina", Belgrad 1928 g. (originalot e na latinski) XII v.: "Po tova vreme v balgarskoto pleme se izdignal nekoi si Samuil.....vodil dolgi voini s GRCITE i gi izgonil ot cela Balgarija... .....imperator Vasilii...zavladjal cela Balgarija, RASHKA i BOSNA, ...DALMACIJA....DOLNA DALMACIJA...." ("gotite" totalno lipsvat) M/u drugoto nazivot "mizi" za balgarite e prouchen posebno dobro i vo srbskata istoriografija - moze bi imash chitano ili da ti preporacham struchnjaci po temava?
Misirkov Eve od "Istorijata" na Lav Djakon (986 godina) za Mizite: "Potoa, bidejkji ja razbil konecno grabachkata cheta na soucesnikot na Varda Skilip, Imperatorot Vasilij, sobirajkji vojska, brzo ja povede protiv Mizite. Zasto nivnata drskost i upornost, navestuvajkji ubistva, i nanesuvala steta na romejskata drzava, bidejkji nemilosrdno gi ograbuvale i unistuvale oblastite na Makedoncite i se vozrasno go unistuvale."
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Diskusijata otide vo druga nasoka. Poentata e deka postojat Makedonci i Makedonija kako sto gledas vrz gorenavedenite primeri. Eve citaj od "Istorijata" na Lav Djakon (986 godina) za Mizite: "Potoa, bidejkji ja razbil konecno grabachkata cheta na soucesnikot na Varda Skilip, Imperatorot Vasilij, sobirajkji vojska, brzo ja povede protiv Mizite. Zasto nivnata drskost i upornost, navestuvajkji ubistva, i nanesuvala steta na romejskata drzava, bidejkji nemilosrdno gi ograbuvale i unistuvale oblastite na Makedoncite i se vozrasno go unistuvale."
, , , , . ( ) , . .
Batbayan Concrete, 600AD-900AD Is the period in which the so called "sea of Slavs" exhisted on the balkans. It is the period when Bulgaria is forced by its Tsar Boris to accept Christianity. It is the period when the Bulgarian alphabet is created and later used to educate the Slav populations. Thus, that is the root of the "Slav" problem. Concrete, there is no rabbit. Misirkov stated the fact that the name Macedonia, only the name, was continuasly popular so I simply stated another fact. Just the facts...
quote:
So akcent na citizenship!!!!
You can put the emphases whereever you please. Considering Bulgaria's poor economic state what good is a Bulgarian citizenship unless you really are a Bulgarian by blood?
quote:
Inaku proveri i nesto drugo na taa tema: kolku pak bugarski "citizenship" si odat za da zemat na primer canadski i etc.,
Who, that is not Bulgarian, would want Bulgarian citizenship? Why would they want it if they are not Bulgarian? It will give them no benefits; but the Canadian one is nothing but benefits.
Misirkov Taka vi gi perat mozocite od BAN. Ne e toa problemot. Problemot TVOJ e vo slednovo: " ." .
Misirkov --------------------------------------------------------------------- noname: ", , , , . ( ) , . . --------------------------------------------------------------------- Kazi mi kolku e ova "arhaicno": Anastasij Bibliotekarot vo "Hronologija Tripertita" opisuva: "Vo triesetata godina od svoeto vladeenje (688), Justinijan dignal vojska protiv Sklavinija i Bugarija.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Taka vi gi perat mozocite od BAN. Ne e toa problemot. Problemot TVOJ e vo slednovo: " ." .
"Mozok", da ti objasnam li kolko ni nas dreme za " " ili sam se sekjavaaaaaaaaash (pa ako sakash prodolzi da se glupirash so niv, losho NEMA)?
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
--------------------------------------------------------------------- noname: ", , , , . ( ) , . . --------------------------------------------------------------------- Kazi mi kolku e ova "arhaicno": Anastasij Bibliotekarot vo "Hronologija Tripertita" opisuva: "Vo triesetata godina od svoeto vladeenje (688), Justinijan dignal vojska protiv Sklavinija i Bugarija.
Kazuvaaam! (izobednag) Nikolko! - ni sklaviniite, pa ni DRZAVATA Balgarija imat neshto obsho so razni antichnosti........ i arhaichnosti.............. Sekogash gotov za tvoe informiranje! Poveli!
bile_pile Batbayan. I find it unfortunate that you could not acquire the answers you were looking for. I myself have not heard about the 5 million euros. I fail to see why anyone would attempt to offer such a huge incentive for something so trite. I think regardless of what we all are, (allow me to sidestep your question. I doubt you'll ever get a solid answer from anyone, Bulgarians and Macedonians alike.) we still strongly associate with the ideals attatched to each nation. You might look towards Attila the Hun, whereas Macedonians look towards Alexander the Great for a sense of identity. All that I have read into the matter is that Macedonians were seperate from the Greeks. I do not know if they are Persian, or whathaveyou in decent. However during the mycenaean age there were inhabitants to the North in what is present-day Macedonia. The Greeks thought of them, and anyone else, as barbarians. These same Macedonians went on to conquer Greece under the leadership of Alexander. This same Macedonia fell divided upon his death. Are the Macedonians a race? Original settlers in the area were generally thought of as Indo-Europeans. So. Eh? Modern europe is so intermixed that there can no longer be a pure bloodline. However, geographically, Macedonia now is where Macedonia was. Regardless of whether we are slavic or not, we all uphold our own set of values, and treasure our differing ancestries. There should be a call for tolerance between all these countries, and an effort to understand that humanity extends beyond nationality. Fala nogum, i dobro nojt. - AND NOW FOR SOME MATEJA MATEVSKI This bullet so carefully manufactured from a lump of heavy ore into a cruel grain in some country in some place this bullet this wild beast this dark messenger of death which memorizes every letter of my name traces my ancestors hounds my shadow this bullet which seeks me in the universe which penetrates my sleep which buries itself in my fear without reason without asking without by-your-leave a grain merely on its way to its target from the muzzle-flash to the shattered skull This bullet from an unknown hand from an invisible eye from an unpercieved breath that wants to take the breath from my body when it discovers me and hides under my forehead it will kill no more ajde sega dobro nojt.
Great_Macedonian Batbayan. The reason why so many macedonians take up bulgarian citizenship is preciselly because they CAN gain somthing out of it. Incase you are anaware europe has opened its borders (to an extent) to bulgarian citizens, and because of this 400thousand bulgarians have left bulgaria in the past 4 years alone and have immigrated to some western european country. Macedonia is not yet part of the "shengen agreement" which means macedonians cannot get a visa to an EU country without going through hell. As macedonians are aware of this, and they know how "glad" bulgarians would be to give them a bulgarian passport, macedonians take up a bulgarian passport for this reason; the fact that with a bulgarian passport they can visit a western european country or find temporary work in one of these countries without too much trouble, whereas with a macedonian passport its almost impossible to leave macedonia these days. Once the "shengen visa" stops aplying to macedonia, and macedonian citizens are allowed to wonder around europe as easy as bulgarian citizens can, then not one macedonian would bother to apply for a bulgarian citizenship. For many macedonians, Bulgaria has became their gateway to europe.
Batbayan Great_Macedonian, I know for a fact that for a person from present day Macedonia to be able to obtain a Bulgarian passport that person has to prove their Bulgarian nationality. I know that they are asked to provide detailed family histories, family trees, family names, traditions, language they speak and so forth. Bulgarian citizenship is not given to Macedonians simply because they apply. As I said, they must prove their Bulgarian roots otherwise Serbs and Greeks that have negative emotions towards Bulgaria will use that citizenship to do faults to the Bulgarian people.
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
[quote][i] Vulgari e naziv za nevernici.
, , ... , ?
Great_Macedonian Yes, even for the 'bulgarians in serbia' it provides a gateway, serbia is the second poorest country after albania these days incase you dont know. Man i am sick of all you bulgarians and greeks telling all this shit about "Tito this Tito that tito made u a country tito gave u a macedonian identity bluh bluh bluh" all that is fuken bullshit u idiots. I AM ONLY GONNA TELL YOU THIS ONCE. MY GRANMA CALLED HERSELF MACEDONIAN FROM THE FIRST DAY OF HER LIFE THAT SHE CAN REMEMBER, THEN THE SERBS CAME AND FORCED THEM TO SAY "JAS SAM SRPKINJA" (IM SERBIAN) AND IF YOU DIDNT,THEY WOULD GET A BEATING... THEN FINALLY TITO CAME TO POWER, AND AS A CROATIAN, DID NOT WANT SERBIA TO BE 'GREAT' SO HE GAVE US BACK OUR COUNTRY MACEDONIA AND RECOGNISED OUR MACEDONIAN IDENTITY. MY GRANMA SAYS, AFTER TITO NOBODY WAS SCARED TO SAY THAT THEY WERE MACEDONIAN. To all you bulgarians and greeks out there, you didnt live in Tito's Yugoslavia so stop assuming you know what was going on in that country. Tito simply recognised everyone for who they said they are, he did not deny identity like the ultra nazi fashist serbs-bulgarians-greeks did towards the macedonians. Tito recognised us, GO FUCK YOURSELVES.. IT REALLY HURTS ALL OF YOU GREEKS AND BULGARIANS.. BECAUSE IF IT WASNT FOR TITO, MACEDONIANS WOULD HAVE BEEN ASSIMILATED AND THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO 'MACEDONIAN QUESTION'... WELL TOO BAD GO FUCK YOURSELVES I TELL YOU ONCE AGAIN.. EVERY ANTI-MACEDONIAN WILL PAY FOR THEIR ANTI-MACEDONIAN PROPAGANDA... SUDBINATA KE VE STASA.
Great_Macedonian and just for the record... the serb propaganda tried to brainwash macedonians by telling them they are "slavs". We macedonians believe that we are descendents of the ancient macedonians, nobody taught us this.. everybody tried to teach us false history, but we know our true history!!!
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Yes, even for the 'bulgarians in serbia' it provides a gateway, serbia is the second poorest country after albania these days incase you dont know. Man i am sick of all you bulgarians and greeks telling all this shit about "Tito this Tito that tito made u a country tito gave u a macedonian identity bluh bluh bluh" all that is fuken bullshit u idiots. I AM ONLY GONNA TELL YOU THIS ONCE. MY GRANMA CALLED HERSELF MACEDONIAN FROM THE FIRST DAY OF HER LIFE THAT SHE CAN REMEMBER, THEN THE SERBS CAME AND FORCED THEM TO SAY "JAS SAM SRPKINJA" (IM SERBIAN) AND IF YOU DIDNT,THEY WOULD GET A BEATING... THEN FINALLY TITO CAME TO POWER, AND AS A CROATIAN, DID NOT WANT SERBIA TO BE 'GREAT' SO HE GAVE US BACK OUR COUNTRY MACEDONIA AND RECOGNISED OUR MACEDONIAN IDENTITY. MY GRANMA SAYS, AFTER TITO NOBODY WAS SCARED TO SAY THAT THEY WERE MACEDONIAN. To all you bulgarians and greeks out there, you didnt live in Tito's Yugoslavia so stop assuming you know what was going on in that country. Tito simply recognised everyone for who they said they are, he did not deny identity like the ultra nazi fashist serbs-bulgarians-greeks did towards the macedonians. Tito recognised us, GO FUCK YOURSELVES.. IT REALLY HURTS ALL OF YOU GREEKS AND BULGARIANS.. BECAUSE IF IT WASNT FOR TITO, MACEDONIANS WOULD HAVE BEEN ASSIMILATED AND THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO 'MACEDONIAN QUESTION'... WELL TOO BAD GO FUCK YOURSELVES I TELL YOU ONCE AGAIN.. EVERY ANTI-MACEDONIAN WILL PAY FOR THEIR ANTI-MACEDONIAN PROPAGANDA... SUDBINATA KE VE STASA.
Strange logics - and does that mean that the Bulgarians in Serbia, Moldova, Ukraine and Macedonia seazed to be Bulgarians simply for the fact that decided to apply for BG passport? As for Tito - you stated yourself that without him you would have been assimilated - than how on earth you existed BEFORE Tito - and even centuries before him (as you claim)?
Great_Macedonian prove? ahahaha.. a question is simply asked: Is your dad, or grandfather a bulgarian? do you feel like a bulgarian? they answer YES, and YES (the purposelly lie) and they get their 'gateway to europe'..hehehe u r so gulable(u beleive evrything u hear).
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
u r so gulable(u beleive evrything u hear).
Great_Macedonian, you are the one that calls himself 'Macedonian' a direct decendent of Alexander. The Serb propaganda was aimed to make you believe that this is true. It is not my opinion, it is a fact. You call me gullible; go educate yourself of the facts and we'll see who the gullible one is.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
Batbayan. The reason why so many macedonians take up bulgarian citizenship is preciselly because they CAN gain somthing out of it. Incase you are anaware europe has opened its borders (to an extent) to bulgarian citizens, and because of this 400thousand bulgarians have left bulgaria in the past 4 years alone and have immigrated to some western european country. Macedonia is not yet part of the "shengen agreement" which means macedonians cannot get a visa to an EU country without going through hell. As macedonians are aware of this, and they know how "glad" bulgarians would be to give them a bulgarian passport, macedonians take up a bulgarian passport for this reason; the fact that with a bulgarian passport they can visit a western european country or find temporary work in one of these countries without too much trouble, whereas with a macedonian passport its almost impossible to leave macedonia these days. Once the "shengen visa" stops aplying to macedonia, and macedonian citizens are allowed to wonder around europe as easy as bulgarian citizens can, then not one macedonian would bother to apply for a bulgarian citizenship. For many macedonians, Bulgaria has became their gateway to europe.
Really, oh, what an "argument"! Does that mean that for the MANY Bulgarians from Bessarabia or the Western Serbia applying alltogether for BG citizenship, the passport is also merely a "gateway to Europe"? What's the difference there? BTW the Greeks(and many others like the Turks) also provide citizenship by prooving ethnic origins.....
Batbayan Hahaha, Misirkov! Let me guesss, you are a Serb that calls himself a Macedonian right? I don't understand why you deleted my post. It was simply filled with facts that are shown by one of the Macedonian Patriotic Organizations in existance. For anyone that did not get a chance to read my post; My post was about the atrocities that Serbs conducted through the land of Macedonia. Misirkov decided to delete that post. I did not violate any of the forum rules! Why didn't you leave the people to read and be aware of all the facts? Macedonians! I am not here to tell you who you are. I simply want you to know all the facts and sides of your history. After all, that is why its called history... it is a representation of the facts and you have the right to know everything. It is people like Misirkov that hide facts from you. In this case Misirkov just prevented you from establishing your own personal opinion. He is trying to enforse his views on you by hiding the facts. You, Macedonians, have nothing to fear. It is people like Misirkov that should be afraid(clearly he is frightened, otherwise he would not have deleted my post). The Serb racists are the people that you despise so much, am I not right? I hate the Serb racists too! Misirkov just did what they have done. Misirkov, don't you want Macedonians to be able to establish their own opinions? [:)] Don't worry, history cannot disapear. It can only be hidden for some time.
Batbayan Great_Macedonian, there is no anti-Macedonian propaganda. I belive in showing all the facts to all people and I belive in allowing the people to decide upon the knowledge of the facts.
blue sky hi i'm chris from texas (usa). i have been to bothg bulgaria and macedonia. i find them very interesting. my hobby is studying balkan history and its origins. it is rather an intriguing topic whether macedoians are bulgarins. personally i believe it is true. it is very interesting that macedonians think they are nothing but macedonians. i have been twice to macedonia and bulgaria. when i think about this topic i do not take sides (partly because i'm a foreigner). but wherever i look it seems that macedonian history isn't accounted for after its ingegration into yugoslavia (i've also been there, belgrade is very nice) everywhere i look i find historical sources in present day macedonia to be classified as bulgarian. i think that macedonia is not reading history correctly. for example, no accounts have been found for Tsar Samuil that he was macedonian...here if you don't believe me, this is an encyclopedia "wikipedia" is the name. Tsar Samuil of Bulgaria (c. 958 - October 6, 1014, reigned 976-1014) was a Bulgarian tsar. Although ultimately unsuccessful in saving his country's independence from the incursions of Emperor Basil II of the Byzantine Empire, Samuil resisted him for decades and is the only man to ever defeat Basil II in battle. Although he wasn't crowned as Tsar until 997, Samuil's reign actually dates from 976, when his predecessor Tsar Roman bestowed the power of the state, if not the crown, upon him. Already known as a successful general, Samuil now extended Bulgarian territory in all directions. Soon, the kingdom reigned supreme over virtually the entire Balkans, with only parts of Greece and Thrace remaining under Byzantine control. In 986, Samuil drove Basil II's army from the field at Troyanovi Vrata, and the emperor sooned turned to the east for new conquests. His victory prompted Pope Gregory V to recognize him as Tsar, and he was crowned in Rome in 997. For the next fifteen years, Samuil and Basil prepared for the clash both men knew was coming. In 1002, full-scale war broke out. By this time, Basil's army was stronger after being tested in battle during his eastern campaigns, and Samuil was forced to retreat into his country's heartland. Still, by harassing the powerful Byzantine army, Samuil hoped to force Basil to the peace table. For a dozen years, his tactics maintained Bulgarian independence and even kept Basil away from the main Bulgarian cities, including the capital of Ohrid. However, on July 29, 1014 at Kleidion (Belasitsa) in Macedonia, Basil II was able to corner the main Bulgarian army and force a battle while Samuil was away. He won a crushing victory and blinded 14,000 prisoners, leaving one man in every hundred with the sight in one eye to lead his comrades home. The sight was too much even for Samuil, who blamed himself for the defeat and died less than three months later, on October 6. The independent Bulgarian kingdom survived him by less than four years, and didn't throw off Byzantine rule until 1185. also on the account for the Brothers Miladinovi. first they published a book called "bulgarian folk songs" in 1861, and used the everyday language in the present day city of struga (which was bulgarian at that time). but back then and untill 1944 macedonia was part of bulgaria. but in the 20th century the book has been renamed "macedonian folk songs". this is unfair!
angomako chris,macedonian history couldn't be found before the integration in yugoslavia simply because there was no macedonian state 1000years before. as for samuil and kliment from ohrid,they are long topics,and i personaly think they are way to overexagerated. one of the reasons why macedonians on this forum are somewhat of a short patience,it's simply because there are many who come on this forum,and start in a friendly maner,and then behold, somehow sudenly show quite expanded historical knowledge,and start debating the people here over all kinds of sensitive subjets,and mind you,most of the people here are not historians,but mere patriots and entiusiasts. the funny thing is,while bulgarians and greeks that come here in many things agree on the "macedonian topics",they deny between them selves many basic premises in the first place. for example,many greeks will tell you that bulgarians are not trakians or misians,and bulgarians will tell you that the modern greeks don't have anything comon with the greeks of the old. and yet,they use their histories in such a preponderant manner,ever since the national revival in 18century...why? becuse history was and still is a powerful tool for homogenising the mases of people.if we have a comon origin and a comon enemy,a comon magnificent history,then we are the same people and we are stronger and better then the others.in the teritorial expansion period,it was and still is a powerful tool. believe me,this recepy was and still is extensively used with all the countries in the balkans, and macedonian history is a far cry from the preponderance of our neighbours history. in the serbian archives,there are still very extended proves about the serbian origin of the macedonians,which weren't fully activated simply because of the place macedonia fought for it self during the second world war.but they are non the less "original" like the bulgarian ones. and the stupid thing the bulgarians are saying about macedonians that they have been kiled if they have declared bulgarians during the serbian ocupation,then why it wasn't like that in greece?why greeks haven't come up with such a "briliant" solution against the local populations,and simply make them "macedonians,like serbians did? and yet,there were many macedonians in greece until the civil war when they got expelled bid time.you don't find this in wikipedia,by the way. it's true that many macedonians felt like bulgarians in the 18 and the begining of the 20century,and it's the time when many croats felt that they are ilirs! it's one of the most important part of the croat history,and they ain't no ilirs. it's like now albanians start to have claims on croat history for that. balkans etnogenesis is a complex matter,and when i hear greek naci crap, and bulgarian allincluding bull,it's funny and sad. my grandfather and his grandfather hatred the guts out of the bulgarians and the serbs,and there was a reason for it. i would write more, but i gota go.next time:) ango
concrete Cris if you are really a Texan I have a friendly advice to you:quietly read the discussions if you are curious and scientifically inclined, but try to keep your opinion as far away as is possible. Maybe after several years of learning we will be ready to hear your conclusions.The problem is completely out of anything that you can understand : a different world 3000 years old and 6000 miles away from you. Also you probably note the famous cosmopolitan soul of Macedonians, they immediately change language knowing that you probable not speak any Macedonian.
blue sky Hi angomako! Thanks for replying! But actually it confused me even more. lol. If seems like it is a never-ending war. Greece, Albania, and Romania are the only countries i haven't visited yet! I plan to visit Greece next year, if expenses allow[:D](it's not very cheap like the others in the region...you know[:(]). I'm sorry to say this, but you confused me a bit :(. You said that there was no macedonian state 1000 years before Yugoslavia, but then you said that it's true that many macedonians felt like bulgarians in the 18 and the begining of the 20century,and it's the time when many croats felt that they are ilirs! Huh?? So to whom do they trace their origins? So somewhere between a thousand years ago and 18 century these people emerged on the balkans. It's interesting to see each country's theory on the subject, lol. It's so confusing, but yet there has to be a certain origin of them because they obviosly exist now...right...I can't understand much of what people are saying in this forum but when they write in English it seems like they're pretty pissed![?]Why is there even such a question as whether Macedonians are slavs or Bulgarians? But not just that, i mean all of the other things that attach to these topics immediately spring up! and there you go...more fighting. This is the biggest problem in the Balkans. People are living with 19 century imperialism ideas and still arguing over territory and who is who. [:(] look forward to talkin to ya chris
Great_Macedonian QUOTE:noname As for Tito - you stated yourself that without him you would have been assimilated - than how on earth you existed BEFORE Tito - and even centuries before him (as you claim)? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok i finally figured it out, your a bulgarian noname arnt u?. Anyways listen man, what i meant by the above sentence was this. Greece and bulgaria have been assimilating the macedonians in greek macedonia and bulgarian macedonia for the past 90years. If Tito allowed Serbia to treat the macedonians in todays republic of macedonia, in the same way.. then the serbs might have assimilated us to a degree also. Today, many of the macedonians in greece have been 'greekenized' through forced assimilation, many of the macedonians in bulgaria have been 'bulgarianized' through forces assimilation. Tito didnt allow anybody to mistreat the macedonians in yugoslav macedonia, thus preventing the assimilation of the macedonians there. Stop trying to tell me my granparents and their grandparents were not macedonians, because they always said that they were, and you cannot tell sombody they arent what they say they are. As for you Blue_Sky.. people like u are the biggest problem on the balkans. You dont know shit about the macedonians. You live on the other side of the world.. you read 'greek history sources'.. you go to bulgaria, they tell you a false story about the macedonians, and then you come on this forum telling me i am not macedonian!? HECK! SINCE THERE IS AN INVASION OF NONE-MACEDONIANS ON THIS FORUM, I WANT YOU ALL TO TELL ME WHO WE MACEDONIANS ARE? I WANT YOU ALL TO AGREE.. ARE MACEDONIANS SERBS? BULGARIANS? OR GREEKS? (make up ur minds for once) Not only do people like noname and blue_sky offend every macedonian in the world.. but by telling us we are not macedonians they cannot even agree on what we actually are?? Greeks think we are greeks (or slavs).. bulgarians think we are bulgarians.. serbs think we are serbs. Isnt it obvious that all of macedonia's neighbours try to claim its country,history and identity?? and why is this? oooo wait, i know! BECAUSE THEY WANT WHAT THEY CANT HAVE! THEY WANT MORE LAND.. THEY WANT MACEDONIA, THEY WANT ITS HISTORY AND THEY WANT THE MACEDONIANS.. because these people have nothing better to do but to deny sombody elses identity. blue_sky, dont bother going back to macedonia, your not welcome.. go to greece, visit that stinky racist undemocratic country. Why do you think blue_sky that in all history records, tsar samuil is stated as a bulgarian??? why do you think that in most history records alexander the great and he's macedonian kingdom is called 'greek'? simple. History has been re-written in the past 200years, since 1829 more precisly, when greece came into existance, and a few decades later bulgaria. Greece has re-written balkan history to suite its needs. They have whiped out all(most) historical evidence referring to 'macedonians' in the past 2000years. They did this to say that the ancient macedonians "were greeks"... and there is know modern macedonians "because there is no proof of them in history books"? (history books written by greek nationalists). Greece and bulgaria had become influential countries when macedonia was still occupied by the ottomans. These countries re-wrote history to suit them! Everything and everyone macedonian was simply renamed to greek or bulgarian... this paved the way for greece and bulgaria to claim that there "are no macedonians" thus macedonia should be devided between them. Bucharest treaty 1913 did exactly that! devided macedonia. 51% went to greece, 39% to serbia and 10% to bulgaria. Serbia helped greece and bulgaria in destroying macedonia and the macedonians, thats why they recieved such a large chunk of its land. Bulgaria would have recieved more of macedonia, but it was unhappy with the amount it recieved, thus it started a war with its fellow 'allies' (2nd balkan war) which it lost! so it only ended up with 10% of macedonia. blue_sky let me tell you this.. the macedonians in greece were told they are greeks.. macedonians in bulgaria were told they are bulgarians.. macedonians in serbia were told they are serbs! all this in order to make these three countries larger and to destroy the central balkan country of macedonia, who if was left undevided would have occupied the most strategic spot in europe. The centre of the balkans. The port of salonika.. the road which links east and west.. road which links europe with asia.. the major trading route.. this is what macedonia would have been. Batbayan.. maybe you are not anti-macedonian.. maybe you 'recognise' macedonians.. but if you say that macedonians are bulgarians, then you are no friend of ours. MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS
Misirkov "Why is there even such a question as whether Macedonians are slavs or Bulgarians?" There is no such question. Except perhaps in the fat bulgarian heads that happened to be tightened with belts - as was done in the old days during Han Asparuh.
Great_Macedonian "Most of Macedonia was conquered by Bulgaria in the 9th century, turning quickly into its cultural (the end of the 9th century) and political (the end of the 10th century) centre. Macedonia, together with the rest of Bulgaria, fell under Byzantine rule in 1018." http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/M/Macedonia.htm <--- Oh look what we have here! Macedonia, CONQUERED by bulgaria! No wonder they call Tsar Samuil 'Tsar Samuil of Bulgaria'. Regardless of he's ethnicity, they called him bulgarian because bulgaria had CONQUERED(OCCUPIED) macedonia in that period of History!
Misirkov Furthermore, they were Turks because the Ottoman Empire conquered them for 5 centuries.
Gjoko
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
"Why is there even such a question as whether Macedonians are slavs or Bulgarians?" There is no such question. Except perhaps in the fat bulgarian heads that happened to be tightened with belts - as was done in the old days during Han Asparuh.
Jas bi se nadovrzal na eden izvadok od nivnata(bugarska)istorija "The firstborn son of Kubrat, BatBayan and his horde, remained on the coast of the Sea of Azov,..." tamu trebalo da ostane i brat mu Asparuh a ne posle nivnite imenjaci i naslednici da se sramat da kazat sto se,pa da kradat tugja istorija.
jamajka bugar, kako nastanal zborot bugar obrazlozi mi vo shto e mozno pomal post.
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Furthermore, they were Turks because the Ottoman Empire conquered them for 5 centuries.
Misirkov, that is quite the solid argument you have going there. Ha... "Istorichar so renome" hahaha. The Ottoman Empire conqured the land of present day Bulgaria for about 5 centuries. The Ottoman Empire also conqured the land of present day Macedonia for about 5 centuries. Here is one very important thing, for you personally to remember. Bulgaria gains independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1878. The land of present day Macedonia gains independence, from the Turks, in 1912. So using your extremely simple Misirkov logic, since the land of present day Macedonia was occupied for a longer period of time than the land of present day Bulgaria; that would make you a Turk as well, even more so. From 1000AD to present. http://www.euratlas.com/time2.htm Follow the atlas, it is quite interesting and completely accurate. If you distrust the link that I give you feel free to go to www.google.com and search for South-Eastern Europe Historical Atlas. From now on, I will take the liberty of calling any simplistic and uneducated logic "Misirka Logic". It is quite hilarious that in a Macedonian history forum, the man with the past title "Istorichar so renome" conveys such logic; not backed up by any logical, coherent or historical facts. Maybe you deleted my post about the Serbs because you are still pissed of at me for showing everyone that you do not deserve a title such as "Istorichar so renome". Don't worry tough, the title of Mederator is more suted for you. This way you have the freedom to delete the facts that you don't like.
angomako goce delcevski,a be batka,ako si makedonec,togas znaes deka ivo pirinska makedonija ima takvi koi sto se cuvstvuvale kako makedonci,a ne bugari. sum sretnal lugje koisto se asli bugari-makedonci,a vikaat deka dedo im e makedonec. baba im e makedonka.a oni ne pa ne,nie sme ti bile bugari...a sami si kazuvaat. fino be brat,ako sakate vie da bidete bugari,ok...nema problem...samo znaj,tito ne ja sozdade ovaa nacija,tuku vremeto ja sozdade,se bese sosema zrelo i nemase problem. aj zamisli ja sofija so 40 godini srpsko,i kako naednas stanuvaat sofijanci trakijci(?)... i gotovo,nema vekje bugari vo sofija. mislis deka ova e mozno?mozes da zamislis takva varijanta? a inaku sto vikas deka srbite so sila pravele makedonci,nema veze... sekoj makedonec kje ti kaze deka takvo nesto ne se slucilo.srbite ne pravea makedonci od bugari,tuku pravea srbi od makedonci. by the way,nema potreba da ne sporeduvas nas,zasto vo pogled na coveckiprava makedonija e 10svetlosni godini pred site balkanski drzavi,vklucuvajki ja i grcija,a da ne ja spomnam bugarija. gi spomna ciganite-romana....prva drzava vo evropa,a i posiroko e makedonija,kade sto ciganite imaat casovi vo skolo na svojot majcin jazik(gi ima okolu 2%)... ima 2 televiziski kanali na romski,a najpoznatite pejaci i muzuicari romski doagjaat od makedonija.imaat pretstavnici vo sobranieto,a na kusturica site romskifilmovi mu se snimani na 20 min od kade sto jas ziveam. by the way,moeto prezime zavrsuva na -ov,site moi drugari preziminjata im zavrsuvaat na -ov... toa sto bugarite go vikaat deka so sila im gi menuvake preziminjata,pak ne mi e jasno,zasto jas sum od skopje,i eden kup skopjani se prezivaat na -ov... a be goce,2000 raboti kje izmiskite za da ne ja priznaete taa vasa nacionalna katastrofa vo 20vek. ne e fer postojano da ne vregjate i nas,i na vakov nacin nigogas nema da doprete do vasite prijateli vo makedonija.procesot na oformuvanje na modernata makedonska nacija,i pokraj toa sto bese potezok vo sporedba so drugite balkanski nacii,e sepak celosno,ama celosno kompletiran. toa sto makedonci imalo so barale bugarski pasosi,eve jas kje ti kazam za trojca moi dobri drugari... site podnsoa za pasos,i site dobija bez problem...ili samo sto ne dobile... nikoj od niv ne se cuvstvuva bugarin,i site toa go napravija za biznis. koga za nekolku godini i nam kje ni gi trgnat vizite za eu(sega gi imame zaradi albancite), 98% od makedoncite kje si gi zemat nazad mak pasosi,i toa kje bide kraj na ovaa diskusija. nemojte oopsto da gaite nekakva nadez deka nekogas makedonija ili makedoncite kje stanat nesto opmalceod makedonci.nikogas vekje populacijata slavjanska na makedonija nema da bide bugarska,goce,nikogas.ne znam zasto toa im e tesko na nekoi bugari da go svatat,koga e tolku ocigledno.srbite ne ptravea makedonci od bugari,tuku pravea srbi od makedonci. ima rabotisto mozebi treba da se diskutiraat,ama jas iskreno mislam deka uste ne e vreme za takvi diskusii. makedonija e fragilna kako drzava se uste,a bugarskata politika za makedonija e krajno dvolicna. nie kulturoloski mozeme apsolutno lesno da opstoime bez bugarija. ic,ama ic ne sme zainteresirani za rodopski i nesebarski pesni,i sl. ednostavno nemame interes,be goce. ali tebe ti e podadena raka sekogas da se vratis kaj svoite.i vremeto samo kje si pokaze sto i kako,a za nekolu godini i na vas kje vi stane jasno. pozdrav, ang
goce delchev Zdravej Great Macedonian! kako si brate? jaz sum dobro, sega uchim vo shkolata (bakalavur za istorija) i chekam s neturpenie praznicite sled mesec! sreken sum deka ke ima podaruci ot dedo mraz! [8D]mislim deka sum bil mnogo dobur momak i ke mi najde najubavia podaruk[:D][:p] a ti sho ke pravash? semejstvo ako imash kak ti e? prati im mnogo pozdravi ot mene...taka neka si pisheme po bratski i da ne davame na tea ot "zapadna evropa" da ni delat za tehna polza. gledam taa karta sho si mi dal na toa site: http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/M/Macedonia.htm i gledam gledam, gore najdesno pishe "Distribution of Races in the Balkan Peninsula" i ima neshto kato "legend" (kvadrata gore) pishe albanci, kjurdi, slovenci, hurvati, armenci, bulgari, surbi, turci...t.n...ama nikade ne vidim da pishe "makedonci" kato poglednem na kartata...mora da sum "colorblind" ama se mi se struva deka dneshna "bulgarija" i dneshna "makedonija" sa eden cvet, svetlo zelen! ja pa ja, treba da sum greshen, ne mozhe da bide toa! ali mozhe i da sum prav....a kato poglednesh pak gore pishe "bulgarija- i posle zelen cvet"....i sho toa znachi? pa site sme bulgari? ouuuu nemojte se sramite togava! kazvam ti go po bratski... ps-nekem da sozdavam vrazhda mezhdu bratski narod razdelen ot politika....ne si struva parite. ama... ps2- abe imam i mnogo sliki da vi pokazhem ama ne stava da "insert picture"? nekoj mozhe li da mi pomogne. kato kliknem na "insert image" pishe samo --->[code][/code]???? ps3- za aleksandur ke ti napishem posle, koga imam vreme...zasega trebva da hodim ps4- molim vi da ne me brishete ot foruma za toa deto sum pisal[:(]
jamajka bugar, kako nastanal zborot bugar obrazlozi mi vo shto e mozno pomal post.
jamajka Ne, tie se huni, so kosi ochi zolta rasa itn. Koi doshle tuka so minoren broj na lugje i bile asimilirani od Makedoncite. Toest se pretopile, jazichno, kulturno, verski, genski itn. Poimot Vulgar do pred 200 godini ne oznachuval poim za etnikum, narod ili pleme. Toa bil atribut za nevernici od bilo koj narod.
goce delchev Zdravej Angomako! Kak si bate? ama az kolko pishem vie tolko me razbirate pogreshno...sigurno ne me slushate a si pishete vashite istorii! 1. ne sum go jaz kazal toa deka site imena na -ski sa makedonski...toa go spomena tozi Highlander! mislim da go znaesh...ama ne moga da go najdam da ti go pokazham kade go e napisal. sakav da mu kazhem che nema vezhe deka imeto zavurshva na -ski i -ov...vse e sushto...bulgarsko...toa sakav da kazhem. 2. ama koj ti e kazal che az sum ot pirin? ama ne sum be bate, az sum si ot severna bulgarija. i samo vremenno zhivea tuka. :D ok? vistina, zashto trebva da sum ot pirin da zashtitavam bulgarija? 3. pak si me razbral greshno...toa link>> http://www.maaratena.com/bulgaria/bulgarians.html ne sum go dal az a tvoja Highlander pak...i veli deka bugarite sa kako niv na slikata! epa bezobrazie napravo...da si me videl mene da se smeem na "makedoncite" taka? ne znam koj ima prava vo "makedonija" ama javno kato gledam kak se smeete na bulgarite javno te tam nemat prava....i ne otrichajte che ne e verno 4. za pasportite....ami ok de...vzimajte gi...bulgarija ne otkazva pasporti na sobstvenite si grazhdani...samo edno da ti kazhem, za da dobiesh BG pasport, trebva da dokazhesh bulgarsko poteklo, a site vo dneshna "makedonija" koi sa rodeni predi 1944 mogat da go dokazhata toa fakt! ako reshite da si gi vratite, pa ok, koj vi spira? samo nemojte da psuvate i da se smeete na taa drzhava bulgarija deto vi e dala pasporti...nema logika...ne mislish li? ti se durzhish dobre, ama highlander i snake_bite si lichi deka sa pod 10 godini ajde pozdravi i zhivo i zdravo[:)]
jamajka bugar, kako nastanal zborot bugar obrazlozi mi vo shto e mozno pomal post.
goce delchev bratski pozdrav do angomako!
quote:
a be batka,ako si makedonec,togas znaes deka ivo pirinska makedonija ima takvi koi sto se cuvstvuvale kako makedonci,a ne bugari.
da ti kazhem chestno kato brat, ne sym ot pirin, roden sum v severna bulgarija...zhivea v pirin ot nekolko godini...pra pra dedo mi e bil chetnik v sandanski i se e bil sreshtu turcite. nikoga ne e kazval deka e makedonec...i dosega ne sum sreshtal grazhdanin v pirin da kazva che e makedonec, a ne bulgarin...ti mozhe da si sreshtal hora (lugje) da kazvat deka sa makedonci, ama taka se kazva zashtoto sa rodeni v taa chast na bulgarija..az kakto sum roden na dunava, kazvam se severnjak! kakto moj prijatel e roden vo jambol, se kazva trakiec! kakto nekoj si drug roedn vo razgrad, se kazva dobrudjanec pra pra dedo mi se e rodil v sandanski i se kazva makedonec....ama svi sa bulgari! dajte da si dojdeme do vistinata...zashto me izbrisahte ot foruma? kazhi mi? toa misirvkov...ama nema vezhe..javno bulgarite nemat prava vo "makedonija"
jamajka bugar, kako nastanal zborot bugar obrazlozi mi vo shto e mozno pomal post. Ke mi odgovorish li na ova prashanje ?????
goce delchev ke ti otgovoram...kakvo sakash da znaesh...kakvo znachi "bugar" i ot kade idva?
jamajka da be istovremeno da mi posochish dokazi kade prvpat se spominja Bugar so "B", ne vulgar
goce delchev bate tuka e 7 bez 10...sled malko trebva da hodim na unito za klas. nemam vreme da ti objasnim sega...ama zashto prashash toa? gurcite ni kazvat "vulgar"...ama nemam vreme sega da ti objasnim...kato se vratim ke ti pushtam otgovorot! ajde do posle!
Divider You just went so away from the topic, all of you!! Just by being provoked by the so-called boulgars into stupid discussions. The Boulgars, tatars of old, the turko-tataric tribes unfortunately populating the country east of us, as it is their wont they still histories, cultures, but they never say thank you. Are Macedonians Slavs was the topic, as i recall! Well, I said they are not. can the filthy tataric thieves explain, rebutt, or can they justy sipmly BUT OUT!!
noname
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
bugar, kako nastanal zborot bugar obrazlozi mi vo shto e mozno pomal post.
. - : / / " ...... . , ; , , , , ........................ , - 28, , . ...................." 3 - .
Divider Izvadeno od Bukuresskuiot dogovor od 1913 za podelbata na Makedonija: 4. GREECE'S GAIN IN TERRITORY. The boundary line separating Greece from Bulgaria was drawn from the crest of Mount Belashitcha to the mouth of the Mesta River, on the Aegean Sea. This important territorial concession, which Bulgaria resolutely contested, in compliance with the instructions embraced in the notes which Russia and Austria-Hungary presented to the conference, increased the area of Greece from 25,014 to 41,933 square miles and her population from 2,660,000 to 4,363,000. The territory thus annexed included Epirus, southern Macedonia, Salonika, Kavala, and the Aegean littoral as far east as the Mesta River, and restricted the Aegean seaboard of Bulgaria to an inconsiderable extent of 70 miles, extending from the Mesta to the Maritza, and giving access to the Aegean at the inferior port of Dedeagatch. Greece also extended her northwestern frontier to include the great fortress of Janina. In addition, Crete was definitely assigned to Greece and was formally taken over on December 14, 1913. 8. SERBIA'S GAIN IN TERRITORY. The eastern frontier of Serbia was drawn from the summit of Patarika, on the old frontier, and followed the watershed between the Vardar and the Struma Rivers to the Greek-Bulgarian boundary, except that the upper valley of the Strumnitza remained in the possession of Bulgaria. The territory thus obtained embraced central Macedonia, including Ochrida, Monastir, Kossovo, Istib, and Kotchana, and the eastern half of the sanjak of Novi-Bazar. By this arrangement Serbia increased her territory from 18,650 to 33,891 square miles and her population by more than 1,500,000. 5. BULGARIA'S GAIN IN TERRITORY. Bulgaria's share of the spoils, although greatly reduced, was not entirely negligible. Her net gains in territory, which embraced a. portion of Macedonia, including the town of Strumnitza, western Thrace, and 70 miles of the Aegean littoral, were about 9,663 square miles, and her population was increased by 129,490. The fundamental defects of the Treaty of Bucharest were that (1) the boundaries which it drew bore little relation to the nationality of the inhabitants of the districts affected... ...The territory she secured was relatively circumscribed; she had failed to emancipate Macedonia, which was her avowed purpose in entering the war... Comments on the treaty: ...The unity of ethnically homogenous state seen as a guarantee of stability and in whose name the revision of the Balkan map has been proposed, does not constitute a solution for the region. On the contrary, it will let loose all sorts of troubles, as the collapse of the 1913 status quo in combination with the Great Powers unwillingness to act will ensnare the region in the worst instability for centuries... ...However, burying their differences for a short time in 1912-13, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria divided Macedonia among themselves during the First Balkan War. Bulgaria's agreed share was reduced by her allies on the grounds that they had conquered the territory while the Bulgarian army was invading neighbouring Thrace. The subsequent Second Balkan War left Bulgaria only with the Struma valley. Vardar Macedonia was incorporated into Serbia and referred to as South Serbia... Mislam deka e dovolno da se kaze deka site onie koi se stremele i seusste se stremat da ni go negiraat identitetot treba da idat i da se gonat u tri lepe... Pozdrav! Makedonija na Makedoncite
Divider Zaboraviv uste na ova: ...History again turned its eyes away from the Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian atrocities in Macedonia to focus on new events that were about to unfold and engulf the entire world...
Divider "When the uproar had ended, Paul sent for the disciples and, after encouraging them, said good-by and set out for Macedonia. He travelled through that area, speaking many words of encouragement to the people, and finally arrived in Greece, where he stayed three months. Because the Jews made a plot against him just as he was about to sail for Syria, he decided to go back through Macedonia." The Holy Bible - Acts 20:1-3 Greek propagandists claim that ancient Macedonia was Greek. Why then, would the Holy Bible distinguish between the two? The history of the Macedonian people began in approximately 2200 B.C. The Ancient Macedonian Empire reached its pinnacle with the conquests of King Philip of Macedon and his son Alexander the Great. Greek propagandists insist that the ancient Macedonians were Greek and therefore, Greece has the right to the name, Macedonia. Worldwide scholarly opinion accepts that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct people from the Greeks and that the name Macedonia belongs to the Macedonians. Here are some quotes... "Examining the dynamics of Macedonian relations with the Greek city-states, he (Borza) suggests that the Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of Greek culture into their own society, maintained a distinct ethnicity as a Balkan people". 1 "It is universally known that the classical Greek authors did not recognise the Macedonians as their fellow countrymen, calling them barbarians, and they considered Macedonian domination in Greece as an alien rule, imported from outside by the members of other tribes, the, as Plutarch says, Allophyloi." 2 "The language of these Macedonians was not Greek, nor were their gods, nor were they recognized by the Greeks." 3 "The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division." 4 "Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that Greek was difficult, indeed a foreign tongue to them." 5
Divider The great Athenian statesman Demostenes, spoke of Philip 2nd: "Philip 2nd cannot be a friend of the Greeks. He is not only no Greek, not even related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."
Divider "When the uproar had ended, Paul sent for the disciples and, after encouraging them, said good-by and set out for Macedonia. He travelled through that area, speaking many words of encouragement to the people, and finally arrived in Greece, where he stayed three months. Because the Jews made a plot against him just as he was about to sail for Syria, he decided to go back through Macedonia." The Holy Bible - Acts 20:1-3 Greek propagandists claim that ancient Macedonia was Greek. Why then, would the Holy Bible distinguish between the two? 359BC Philip becomes regent of the small kingdom of Macedonia on the death of his brother, King Perdiccas, whose son is a mere child. Philip, aged 22, already displays unusual diplomatic and military acumen. 356BC Amyntas, son of the late King Perdiccas, is deposed and Philip is confirmed as absolute king. He signs a pact with the Chalcidian league which names Athens as the common enemy, and goes on to take the city of Potidaea. During the year Philip has more good news: his horse wins at Olympia and his wife, Olympias, gives birth to a son, Alexander. 351BC The orator Demosthenes denounces the expansionist policies of Philip of Macedon and castigates his fellow citizens for their lack of awareness. 348BC Philip of Macedon takes Olynthus by siege and utterly destroys it, securing control of the Chalcidice peninsula. When the Chalcidian league learnt of Philip's intentions, they broke with their former ally and appealed to Athens. Convinced by Demonsthenes, Athens at last sent an expeditionary force - but it was too late. 346BC - Despised Macedonia crushes the Greeks in the "Sacred War" The Sacred War, waged for the last ten years for possession of Greece's supreme oracle at Delphi, has ended with Philip of Macedon, despised as a barbarian by the Athenians, winning ascendancy over Greece. This unforeseen result of yet another internecine quarrel bodes ill for the city states. It started when the Thebans, who controlled the Amphictiony, the multi-state council which administers the shrine, forced through a threat of war against the Phocians unless they paid a fine for cultivating sacred ground. The Phocians, who had once had control of Delphi, chose to go to war to re-establish their position, but there then followed a period of cruel, confused warfare during which the Phocians were generally successful. But then the war drew in the ambitious Philip, who saw his opportunity to seize Greek territory. His advance and involvement in Greek affairs drew bitter attacks from Demonsthenes, who issued the first of his "Philippics" in 351BC. Athens belatedly sent an army to help Athens' allies besieged by Philip at Olynthus. It was too little and too late. Philip captured the city and razed it to the ground. Phocis has now been forced to sue for peace and Philip the Barbarian holds power in Greece. 346BC - "Puny Village" becomes a hub of empire Pella, the capital of the Ancient Macedonian Empire Athenian propaganda asserting that the Macedonian capital, Pella, is 'a puny little village' (as Demosthenes, the anti-Macedonian lobbyist, has suggested) is contradicted by eye-witness accounts of recent travellers who visited it. Far from its being an inaccessible shanty town, they say, it is approaced by a well-engineered road some 30 feet wide. It is ona vast fertile plain flanked by the sea, with a thriving port. This prime site was developed some 50 years ago by King Archelaus. Elegant buildings, with walls six feet thick, are decorated with rare pebble mosaics, Ionic and Doric colonnades, and three-foot roof tiles stamped "Pella". The palace contains murals by the great artist Zeuxis. Standards of public hygiene, water supply and drainage match the aesthetic quality of the city. The plays of Euripides are performed and the heir to the throne, young Alexander, has Aristotle as a visiting tutor. Pella is unquestionably the hub of a growing empire. 340BC - Macedonia Conquers Thrace, a flourishing kingdom of contrasts renowned for warlike shepherds and sophisticated jewellery After 20 years at war, Macedonians under Philip II are beginning to take stock of the huge and wealthy Thracian empire they now control. With lands that stretch from the Danube to the Bosporus, Philip II now rules one of the most culturally, economically and politically advanced regions in the world. Thracian treasure with its fine filigree work in silver and gold is internationally famous, with Thracian craftsmen setting new standards in fashioning jewellery, helmets and breastplates in gold and silver. Much noted are those decorated with unusual combinations of human and animal subjects, reflecting Thrace's eastern influences. This ability to generate items of wealth was a weapon in the unsuccessful campaign by Thrace's last overall ruler, Kotys, to win allies and influence friends. Kotys tried to unite Thrace's tribes of wild shepherds into an empire, reminiscent of the Persians' that would extend from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean. 339BC Hostilities are renewed between Athens and Macedonia, marking the start of the fourth Sacred War. Philip II occupies Elateia, two days' march from Attica. Demosthenes saves the day for the panic-stricken Athenians by engineering an alliance between Athens and Thebes. 338BC Philip II of Macedon defeats the combined forces of Athens and Thebes at the battle of Chaeronea. With the surrender of Thebes the Boeotian league is dissolved. Philip imposes peace terms on Athens which include allying with Macedonia and dissolving the Athenian league. Struck by the generosity of their conqueror, the Athenians offer citizenship to Philip and his son, Alexander. 337BC - Philip of Macedon conquers the Greeks After a decisive defeat by Philip II of Macedon, Athenian leaders have accepted peace on terms which effectively end the traditional independence of Greek city states. In a war which began more than 20 years ago, the Macedonian "barbarian" has proved himself a master of political strategy as well as a military genius. He has used the wiles of diplomacy, marriage, banking, corruption and sabotage. His military coups include the defeat of Illyria to the north, together with Athens' maritime ally, Chalcidice, to secure his southern Aegean flank and the remorseless occupation of mainland cities. Athens, a tardy opponent, held his advance after a long battle in 352BC to control the strategic Thermopylae Pass. Philip used a temporary peace with Athens to join Thebes in its "Sacred War" against Phocis. Theses, a hollow victor, was spent. The real winner was Philip. Other governments anointed him as a peacemaker, but in 341BC he attacked Athens' allies in Thrace-Gallipoli. Renewed warfare culminated in an evenly-matched combat at Chaeronea last year. The turning point was a feigned retreat by Philip behind piles of corpses, enticing the Athenians into hot pursuit and an ambush. This was sprung by seasoned Macedonian cavalry, led by Philip's son Alexander. In the immediate aftermath of the war, Thebes has been occupied by Macedonians. Nominal self-government continues elsewhere, but without autonomy overseas. Most states must join Philip's new League of Corinth as he prepares to repay Persia for its earlier attacks. Greece is unified, but at a great cost."
Divider Ancient, proud!! That is a definition of a Macedonian!! Now. All you arseholes spreading lies try and continue in the wake of the truth or your eyes have been removed, ears plugged with wax and your brains dulled that you can not even hear the cry of the truth from God onwards. Just read the first sentences from the previous post or open the Bible!!
angomako gocka,napisa: Highlander pak...i veli deka bugarite sa kako niv na slikata! epa bezobrazie napravo...da si me videl mene da se smeem na "makedoncite" taka? ne znam koj ima prava vo "makedonija" ama javno kato gledam kak se smeete na bulgarite javno te tam nemat prava....i ne otrichajte che ne e verno -------------------------------------------------- makedonija e zemja so najgolemi malcinski prava vo evropa.stvarno. vie kako bugari ne mozete da zamislite sto znaci toa...da imase barem 2% budari,i tie kje imaa prava. ama ne moze toa tuku taka i mora da ima barem nekoja troska reciprocitet. toa bese i celiot konflikt so albancite.samo preku sila baraat se,namesto da pokazat troska pocit za narodot sto gi rani i im plakja se. za vreme na milosevic,nikade albancite ne ziveeja taka i nemaa tolkavi prava kako vo makedonija.i pak zedoa puska i pukaa na nas,od prosta pricina sto takvo im e plemeto.so da prais...toa e makedonija pred sto godini ,a i sega... e sega,za bugarite vo makedonija........a be gi nema,ili se mnogu malce:) a i da gi ima,ok...ja nemam nisto protiv niv-vas...da imase bugari,kje si imaa prava kako i site drugi malcinstva. toa so pasosite nemoj da go spomnuvas,zasto toa ne se bugari i tie dobro znaat sto se-99% od niv. citam grci sto pisuvaat,a i vas bugarite i se smeam... srpska propaganda,ogromna masinerija,i sto li uste ne... da imaa tie od makedonskiot istoriski institut malku dobles,nemase sega entuzijasti i rodoljubi cisto so svoja volja da se raspravaat so "friendly dobronamerni" tipovi kako batbajan... kako pocna mrsulot od edna tema i prefrli na druga... i vikas deka ne ne vregjas,so loso ste kazale i kako na makedonci ne se smees... za nas e navreda koga grk kje ni sere deka ne sme mozele da se vikame makedonija i slicen naci crap! navreda e i koga kje ni kaze nekoj deka sme bugari! taka da koga kje pocnat vakvi diskusii,mnogu e lesno za nas da go svatime toa navredlivo i da vozvratime vo ista mera. kolu toa go dozivuvame navredlivo,mozs da vidis od reakciite na drugite tuka na forumot.seto toa se reakcii na provokacii od strana na tipcinja kako batbayan,koeto ne e istoricar,ami samo se interesiral troa...i levo desno,si ja pokaza facata koj e i sto e,i so kakva namera e tuka. jas vikam deka treba da gi zasilime kontrolite na forumot,i bugari,welcome,ama treba da znaete kade za nas pocnuva a kade zavrsuva uctivosta. za makedoncite,drugar mi bese ednas na megjunaroden seminar,i pretstavniukot od bugarija-pirinec:) pravat muabet,i nasiov mu vika-emi,be ne li si makedonec... pirinecot mu vika-a be dedo mi zapnal makedonci makedonci posebna nacija,poseben narod,,ja mu vikam ne be,nema sansa,kako toa makedonci...isprano mozoce(od nasa perspektiva...od tvoja,maliot e osvesten:)... mozam samo edno da ti kazam za makedoncite,a toa e deka se najgostoljubiv i miren narod na planetava...ima mnogu ubavini vo sekoj pogled,i bugarite go znaat toa...ja znaat muzikata,gi znaat i lugjeto sto mozat i kolku se silni vo duhot...ama za nas tuka zavrsuva taa prikazna,goceeeee...istorija mene tolku i ne mi e bitna...history,her story,my story,their story...somebodies story... ja sum si makedonec,tatko mi e,dedo mi e,tatkoto na dedo mi bil,i taka nataka... mnogu e ednostavno toa za nas,u stvari... kolku pobrzo bugarite go prifatat toa,tolku pobrzo kje se zgolemi doverbata megju nasite dva naroda,kako i sorabotkata kulturna koja e na nikakvo nivo,za zal...da se prevedea povekje knigi od bug na mak, i slicno,toa e vo vzaemen interes...a vaka,samo se povekje kje se odalecuvame. se najdobro:) ang
Divider Moe e da si kazam pak: najubavite devojki na planetava se makedonkite. Ela pa posle nekoj neka kaze nesto protiv!!! Od antikata navamu!!! A jas sum bil i pominal po stepite od kaj sto dosle tatarite, nema bre niedna da ne lici na kobila. Zatoa bolgari nasata krv ve oplemenila. Ili ste tatari ili turci ili makedonci. Ubavite devojki vi se makedonkite koi sto ste gi grabale navremeto, sve ostanato fuj.
goce delchev do site taka narecheni "makedonci" otgovorete mi samo na ovo prashane. ti Great_Macedonian sam si dade toa website: http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/M/Macedonia.htm kade vidite makedonija kato dyrzhava? Distribution of Races in the Balkan Peninsula....vidim deka pishe site sa bulgari, edin cvet, zelen....taa karta e ot 1912. a na slikata s vashija "aleksandur makedonski" pishe "aleksandroz o megas" gruk! kak mozhete da mi dokazhete deka aleksandur e govoril "makedonski" ? kade vi e drzhavata s konstitucija i sobstven ezik predi 1944? NEMA takva sakam otgovori, a ne propaganda! pokazhete mi edna karta da pokazva makedonski etnos i makedonski ezik pred 1944? ama nemojte da mi pokazvate takvi karti napraveni sled 1944...takvi ima mnogo ot srbo-makedonskite propagandi. ajde pozdrav
Divider Ne sakam da bidam v(b)ulgaren vo recnikot, ama nosi se u tri lepe pizde materina, (do not) pardon my french! Ok. Malku li ti se objasnuva nasekade koj e sto e, od kaj e??!! A!! Ajde molim te skini se skurca ako nemas nesto pametno da kazes, vazi. Ima popametni koi mozebi sakaat da si razmenuvaat iskustva i znaenja, a ne da ve educirame vas, smrdlivci tatarski.
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Ne sakam da bidam v(b)ulgaren vo recnikot, ama nosi se u tri lepe pizde materina, (do not) pardon my french! Ok. Malku li ti se objasnuva nasekade koj e sto e, od kaj e??!! A!! Ajde molim te skini se skurca ako nemas nesto pametno da kazes, vazi. Ima popametni koi mozebi sakaat da si razmenuvaat iskustva i znaenja, a ne da ve educirame vas, smrdlivci tatarski.
bate! zoshto me psuvash? jaz da sum te psuval tebe? NE! nishto losho ne sum ti rekal, samo sam te prashal da mi otgovorish na tea vuprosti..drugo e che moite prashania imat samo eden otgovor. bulgarija....toa e...zoshto se sramish ot istorijata si bre? nikoj ne te kara da se otrechesh deka si makedonec, ti mozhe da si makedenec, ot zemja bulgarska i ezik bulgarski.... http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/historical/Eastern_Europe1878.jpg pogledni taa karta...toa e pedi balkanskite voini (poslednata zagubila bulgarija) i da se vzeme bulgarska teritorija, makedonija, i da se razdade na srbete, grcite... i vidish mnogo dobre na drugata karta po gore deka Ethniceski narod vo dneshna bulgarija i dneshna makedonija e bilo isto...vse sa bulgari, vse sa gordi makedonci, ot zemja bulgarska ps- eto ti oshte edno da pogledash http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/historical/Balkan_aspirations_1914.jpg ne se srami da se narechesh gord makedonec, bulgarin[:(]
concrete Ej,pa ova Goce klinecov se raspistolil bre,bee!!!!Go pustivme sam eden den i go izberbatil bre topikov. Batbayan, daj be ti si po bugarskiot problem,ajde batka sredi go malku detevo,barem malku higiena. Ste cule verojatno za bebeski peleni , na sekoja televizija reklami samo za niv davaat.Sto dete bese be ova , do ovde mirisa, korne.
Batbayan The following post is regarding the question of when the term 'Bulgar' arose in writting initially. Jamaika, the present day Bulgarians have been known to history by many names. The earliest known European record about Bulgarians is "Anonymous chronograph", a list of tribes and peoples in Latin. He mentiones a certain 'Ziezi ex quo Vulgares'. This record is from mid 300AD. Before 300AD the Bulgars were known in the world under the name Huns. Keep in mind that the word Huns is not an ethnos. It is used to denote a federation of different tribes. Attila's striking forces were the two tribes; Kutrigurs and Unogurs. Attila himself is the first ruler on the 'List of Bulgarian Princes'. Some historians believe that the Bulgarian tribes in the Hun federation were the predominant element of the mass. Due to archeological findings, culture, traditions, warfare etc. also acknowledging the work of Herodotus it is logical to equate the origin of the Huns(Bulgars) to be decendet from the Scythians, in particular the Royal Scythians, with admixtures of Sarmatians(a Persian tribe).
quote:
Herodotus describes the Huns as the Royal Scythians and even though there is sufficient information left from the ancient writes to identify the origin of the Huns, their origin has been often confused in the past with the Hsiung-nu described by the Chinese writers. Untill the 1940s, the identity of the European Huns with the Hsiung-nu on Chinas borders was rarely questionable. As no one doubted at that time that the Hsiung-nu were Mongoloid, the Huns must have been Mongoloid too. However there are no paleoanthropological finds to reconstruct the routes over, which the Huns migrated into the eastern Europe. The race of the Huns can be unmistakably concluded by the Europoid characteristics of the finds in the graves north from the Black and the Baltic Seas and later, after Attalas invasion, across central Europe and the Balkans. The interpretation given by A. N. Bernshtam in 1926 about the Kenkol finding (his thesis was centered an a catacomb in the cemetery on the Kenkol River in the Upper Talas Valley) to be the missing link between the Hsiung-nu in Mongolia and the Huns in Europe has been challenged and abandoned. Some Turkologiests are still entertaining his ideas even today. Participating in a military expedition against the Chinese does not make Hsiung-nu Huns, nor fighting together against the Romans makes the Goths Huns. The reason that the identity and the adobe of the Huns had been often confused by the writers during the time of early Roman Empire, is that Huns directed their attention entirely to the Chinese and other eastern powers for defense and trade. At the beginning of the first millennium, Huns had become more attracted by the fertile land west of the Sea of Azov, to become the ethnic group of preference by the Roman chronicles the next thousand years.
The beginning by the ancient Bulgarian calendar.
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In the ancient Bulgarian chronology, there are periods of 3, 10, 12, 17, 19, 21, 30, 47, 50, 53, 300, 600, 4332, etc. ancient Bulgarian years that are used both as denominators and intervals of time. The longest one is of 6328 ancient Bulgarian years. It is mentioned in the fragmentary inscription of Khan Omurtag and refers to the year 823 AD. The text consists of 14 lines, probably the concluding part of a contract between Danube Bulgaria and the Eastern Roman Empire. The inscription is carved with beautiful letters on a marble stone most probably from the capital town of Pliska. Here is what it reads: [of the ruler] the name is [Khan Omurtag Juvigi]. The year of the appearance of the true god was 6328. They made a sacrifice and they swore in the written in the books [mutual contracts] This historic source may be accepted as a proof of the early beginning of the chronology of the Bulgarian calendar. According to the counts of the great Bulgarian historian Professor Vassil Zlatarski the beginning is the year 5505 BC. Therefore, we can calculate that the year, 2001 AD, is the year 7506 of the ancient Bulgarian chronology. Thus, the Bulgarians are the people with the most ancient system of measuring time a fact, which indicates their early civilizing force.
Divider The Holy Bible - Acts 20:1-3 "When the uproar had ended, Paul sent for the disciples and, after encouraging them, said good-by and set out for Macedonia. He travelled through that area, speaking many words of encouragement to the people, and finally arrived in Greece, where he stayed three months. Because the Jews made a plot against him just as he was about to sail for Syria, he decided to go back through Macedonia." Never in the Bible was once the name or something similar as voulgar or Voulgaria, boulgar or Boulgaria or such, ever mentioned!! But Macedonia, and Macedonians were!! However, they are mentioned in the Quran as the tatar tribes that embraced the Mohhammad the Profet of Allah the most gracious and most mercifull... I gues now this topic should be locked regarding tataric bullcrap being spread on macedonian forums. Nais pais??!!!
Batbayan The posts I have made are regarding answering questions that the forumers have. Divider, that speaks of Macedonia, a mere region in the world such as Dobrudja or Trakia. What you have posted is reffering to the ancient times. If it were reffering to any people it would be the ancient Macedonians. The present day Macedonians become recognized as a separate nation about 10 years ago. You seem to keep forgetting that fact. On a side note, please do keep in mind that the Bible is not a history book.
Divider Yes, maybe, but for you Mohammedans it is still a holly scripture, isn't it!!
Divider Also, should we call you soviets or zzivkovites if we follow the false history by the Russian hegenmonistic doctrine?? No need for an answer. The truth is plain, and as I said, you are scared or ashamed to admit. Well, it's your loss!!
Batbayan The Volga Bulgars accepted Islam. The Dunabe Bulgars accepted Christianity. I don't see what point you are trying to prove by bringing religion in to the discussion. I respect all religons of the world. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Budhist what does it matter? People have the right to pray to what ever God they wish.
jamajka Batbayan, Tochno e toa deka Asparuh bil Hun, no tie shto nemale vera nashite gi narekuvale vulgari. Odejki od toa deka "grchkata" vita na zapad e pogreshno prevedena kako beta, ottuka nastanuva zborot. Poimot vulgari isto kako i sloveni vo toa vreme e tesno vrzan so religijata, ednostavno vulgar bil nekrsten, a sloven krsten, so samata hristijanizacija na celiot region, drzavata koja "Vizantija" ja narekuvala Vulgarija ednostavno prestanala da postoi. A nejzinoto novo pojavuvanje vo 19 vek e samo tvorba na zapad, koj, ushte ednash ke kazam, bukvata vita pogreshno go interpetirala bo beta. Vo nikoj sluchaj ne sakam da go delam narodot vo R Makedonija i R Bugarija. Tie se eden ist narod, Makedonski. Site nie sme Makedonci. Kazi mi dali deneshnite Bugari se poveke slichni so Asparuh ili pak so starosedelcite, Makedonci?
goce delchev i forgot to add that the Thracians, Thrace was also the neighbor to bible times "makedonia"....but you don't see the thracians (certainly that region still around, mostly in bulgaria and some in turkey and greece) making a country on their own now? or declaring they have a separate language....
concrete Abe Goce Delcev, mutav li si ili treba da ti se nacrta. Koga zboruvas so makedonci i za Makedonija daj malku sredi se,izmij se ,isceslaj se,kazi prvo dobar den,pa posle zini.Sto si zapnal bre so tvoite smotani argumenti.Pa za toa raskazuvaj mu na nekoj drug, nemoj nas.Ako bese za zanimacija, na forumov Batbayan si e dosta. Ne vazi batka nieden argument koj ke go navedes, jasno!? i ne si go gubi vremeto, ova se premnogu etericni temi za nekoj kako tebe da moze da gi razbere....Thracians, Thrace,etc.etc ,kakva vrska ima toa so Makedonija i makedoncite,ajde pozdravi, brakja bugari..... si imas ti mlado momce, nekoj golem problem , nekoj golem tovar na dusata .....rasprasaj se za nekoj koj bi mozel da te soslusa i da ti pomogne, ama gledaj da e asalen doktor od dobro skolo, problemot ti e navistina mnogu delikaten.
Divider Profesor od Johns Hopkins po psihijatrija, scecijaliziran za multiple personality disorder!! Toa im treba i na Goceta Delchev i takvite kako nego.
goce delchev bate mnogo lesno e da ti dokazhem kak bulgarite sa gi posrbili v "makedonija" pogledni na slikata>> kak e napisano makedonija? [img]http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G04/02/A04_02/sa2201.htm[/img] ....a kak se pishe dnes? makedonija<<< dumata e na bulgarski...a dumata e na srpski;) na slikata koja ot dvete e napisano? [:D]na bugarski!
Misirkov Jamajka: narodite vo Bugarija se heterogena masa. Verojatno mislis deka del od narodot vo Bugarija ni e rod? Jas sigurno nemam nisto zaednicko (vo etnicka smisol) so potomci na Pecenezi, Gagauzi, Vlasi, i istanati etnosi.
Divider Za cudo edno, Gagauzot koj go zapoznav vo Gruzija se pretstavuvase kako turski hristijanin!! ne znam mnogu okolu toa, znam samo deka jas licno smetam deka vo New tatarstan ima makedonci koi se so izmieni mozoci i tatari.
Maleshevo , . , . , . , , ? . , , . . , , . , . , . .. , ?
goce delchev Divider! I am trying to communicate with you and write regarding your note in the Bible...but your friend Misirkov keeps erasing me...he is very ignorant...why do you erase me? perhaps you are afraid of the truth? it is true about the text in the Bible! I believe it because i am a christian and i do not deny they Bible. the text is simply too vague, it only mentions a name...you cannot base the whole existance of a country based on one text....even if you do live in the land known as ancient "makedonia" then why haven't you had your own language or own culture or leaders known throughout the world, up untill 1944? but now...and i related thrace to this because thrace was also in bible times...thrace was also a region, and still is today...but you do not see thrace forming a country do you? can you prove to me that this "megas alexandros" is related to you be any chance? how can you prove that this alexandros spoke makedonian? you cannot. Misirkov...i am so happy that you erase my writings, this proves that you are a sissy and you cannot accept the truth! i am still waiting for an answer to prove me wrong that there was no macedonian ethnicity up untill 1944...i gave you some maps to look at
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
Abe Goce Delcev, mutav li si ili treba da ti se nacrta. Koga zboruvas so makedonci i za Makedonija daj malku sredi se,izmij se ,isceslaj se,kazi prvo dobar den,pa posle zini.Sto si zapnal bre so tvoite smotani argumenti.Pa za toa raskazuvaj mu na nekoj drug, nemoj nas.Ako bese za zanimacija, na forumov Batbayan si e dosta. Ne vazi batka nieden argument koj ke go navedes, jasno!? i ne si go gubi vremeto, ova se premnogu etericni temi za nekoj kako tebe da moze da gi razbere....Thracians, Thrace,etc.etc ,kakva vrska ima toa so Makedonija i makedoncite,ajde pozdravi, brakja bugari..... si imas ti mlado momce, nekoj golem problem , nekoj golem tovar na dusata .....rasprasaj se za nekoj koj bi mozel da te soslusa i da ti pomogne, ama gledaj da e asalen doktor od dobro skolo, problemot ti e navistina mnogu delikaten.
Zdravej Concrete! Kato gledam, az vinagi kazvam pozdravi, a ti nikogash! nema vezhe. kakva zanimacija? znachi toa shto kazvam i potvrdjavam ot istorijata e izmislica? ha..sunuvash bate! istorijata e najave i zatoa ima fakti da se dokazhe! razbirash? zashto da sa smotani argumenti? znachi celata istorija e smotana spored tebe? ha, no comment. zashto da ne vi prikazvam tea raboti? shtoto sa vistina? ha, zashto ne kazhesh neshto drugo osven tova da begam ot tuka? zashtoto sum prav? ouu... epa nemoj taka be pile! kakuv e toa forum togava, samo s srpska propaganda? dadov ti shto sa pisale srbete! procheti go Kak si be? ok ok... bate az maj si razbiram sve! ama mislim deka i ti go razbirash, daze podobre i ot mene, ama te e sram da go priznaesh! ajde cao ps-az sum oshte mlad be, za kakvi momceta govorish..ha
Batbayan
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
[b]Vo nikoj sluchaj ne sakam da go delam narodot vo R Makedonija i R Bugarija. Tie se eden ist narod[b]
I agree with you on that completely! Misirkov, again you delete facts? So what is it? You may call yourself Macedonian but it seems to me that either you are a Serb by blood; or you like doing their dirty work. Which is it? Concrete, I have told you before. You appear to be the most intelegent of the bunch. Now, here you are, overthrowing facts. Why do you choose not to read them? Why are you ok with Misirkov's deletion of the facts? All you have to do is acknoledge them, they do exist. It is the history of your land.
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Jamajka: narodite vo Bugarija se heterogena masa. Verojatno mislis deka del od narodot vo Bugarija ni e rod? Jas sigurno nemam nisto zaednicko (vo etnicka smisol) so potomci na Pecenezi, Gagauzi, Vlasi, i istanati etnosi.
Misirkov: Etnosite shto gi nabrojuvash vo Bugarija se malcinstvo. Ogromnoto mnozinstvo na lugjeto vo Bugarija vo krvta imaat Makedonski geni isti kako nashite sega i vo antichko minato, no ednostavno se lazeni i se pishale kako narod koj defakto ne postoi. Razmisli malku na ovaa osnova. Istoto go mislam i za Srbite i za golem del od narodot vo Albanija.
goce delchev batbayan...bate, kak se "insertva snimka" tuka be? ne mozhe, samo pishe "img"...ne mi otvara prozorec da izbiram snimki ot PCto?? kakva e taa rabota?
goce delchev
quote:
Etnosite shto gi nabrojuvash vo Bugarija se malcinstvo. Ogromnoto mnozinstvo na lugjeto vo Bugarija vo krvta imaat Makedonski geni isti kako nashite sega i vo antichko minato, no ednostavno se lazeni i se pishale kako narod koj defakto ne postoi. Razmisli malku na ovaa osnova. Istoto go mislam i za Srbite i za golem del od narodot vo Albanija.
pozdravi Jamajka! brako, son ste sonile vo Skopsko sto Filipa e vas dedo, a Filipica - vasa babovica!!! Toa sto: Filip II Makedonski e makedonski car koj sto ja unnistil grckata armija i gi porobil grcite - e istoriski fakt i vistina, no bez ukraskite deka ste gi turile!!! A od vistinata nema beganje! Jas sakam da te prasam: dobro, nie ne sme nikakvi bugari, tuku sme luge so makedonski koren - kak trebe nie da se zovem spored teb i kakvo da e imeto na nasta drzava? Neli ako sme i nie Makedonci i drzavata ni Makedonija - ke stanem 2 Makedonii i 2 isti naroda??? Sto ke pravame togava - ke se tepame koj e povistinski Makedonec eli ke se obedenuvame - kako brakja!?!? A reci mi!!!! ajde pozdravi
Misirkov Fakt e deka nosat politicko ime "Bugari", no kolku od niv navistina se od makedonsko potelo? Eden ne tolku poznat no evropski priznat makedonski istoricar od Skopje, koj sega raboti vo Germanija, se slozuva so tebe. No sepak mislam deka del, da ne recam dobar del e turko-vlaska meshavina. Znaci za nikakvi Bugari ne stanuva zbor, no se postavuva prasanjeto kakva e taa mesavina, i koj del od narodot tamu se Makedonci? Jas mislam 1/3 od celokupnata populacija.
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Fakt e deka nosat politicko ime "Bugari", no kolku od niv navistina se od makedonsko potelo? Eden ne tolku poznat no evropski priznat makedonski istoricar od Skopje, koj sega raboti vo Germanija, se slozuva so tebe. No sepak mislam deka del, da ne recam dobar del e turko-vlaska meshavina. Znaci za nikakvi Bugari ne stanuva zbor, no se postavuva prasanjeto kakva e taa mesavina, i koj del od narodot tamu se Makedonci? Jas mislam 1/3 od celokupnata populacija.
bate, jaz da te prasham tebe! ako sme smeshavina od tursko-vlasi, togava kak imame rusokosi beee? kak imame bylgari s sini ochi? kak ima bylgari s pobela koza i ot germanci?? stvarno, poveketo sa crnokosi i crni ochi...ama kak stava taa rabota? barem sa marsianci tea sto ne sa crnokosi? c c c bylgarite sa smeshani ot slavjani i od huns! ne tatari ili turci ili koj drug da e! ama ti si "skopski istricar" i si studiral v beogrado....a tam da ne kazvam kolku sa ti promili mozuka
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by concrete
Ti preporacaa nekoj si Profesor od Johns Hopkins po psihijatrija, scecijaliziran za multiple personality disorder!! Nemoj da gubis vreme pastirajki razni gluposti po forumov, pobrzaj so vreme,dodeka simptomite se uste benigni, takvite raboti ne se za igranje, mozat da bidat mnogu neprijatni!!!! Ej da ne zaboravam, nemam informacija , a onoj kup Pomaci sto luge ke bea toa, mozebi znaes. A za kulturata ne brzaj mnogu , sega kako idni evropejci ke treba da znaes sto e toa copyright, na toa tie pazat mnogu. Poarno izmislete nesto drugo so vreme inaku ke ve odereme za licencata.
bate pomacite sa si bulgari no s prieli turska vera...i sa edna shepa lugje ot cela bulgarija! te sa vse edno bosanci! poturcheni srbi... bate togava trebva celija svet da ima multiple disorder i site geograficki karti da sa napisuvani ot nenormalni luge....ti dobre li si? i ushte neshto...tea neshta shto sum gi postiral ne sa pishuvani ot mene...a ot istorijata! razbra li be? ajde sega begaj pri doktora (samo gledaj da ne e srbin) i da ti izpere mozuka i da ti go vrati soznanieto bugarsko!
goce delchev http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G04/02/A04_02/sa2201.htm eto vi e slikata...blokirali sa me da ne postiram sliki..hehe..zashto bre?
concrete Zdravej Goce Delcev! Ne sum be jas namkor , bas na protiv.... ama ne sum ni srbin,batko i na tvoja golema zalost ni bugarin, za grk da ne zboruvame,ke se vidam so niv na sud za kukjata i edno 50 akri zemja, koga togas. Arno ama pred edna nedela sedam so Costas (as grk vo edno 5-6 kolena) ,kaj nego vo Atina koga mu se javi eden klient od Ulm : bla,bla ...... ein Freund von Mazedonien....... ja,ja, ein wirklicher Macedonian. I tie poleka se operiraat od toj problem,ostanavte samo ti i madzirite da digate vreva. E sega..... sto da se pravi??? Kako sto velat tvoite prijateli srbi : nekome bog da sve , nekome nista. Si morate da se grebete za tuga istorija,pa poteklo pa ......brkaj rabota . Srdecni pozdravi.
goce delchev pozdravi! i ushte neshto...zaboravih da vi kazham...site shto si mislite deka bugarite sa izmesica ot turski i takvi narodi...pogreshni ste! po vreme na tursko robsto nito edna bulgarka ne e razhdala turchin, ako e rodila bebeto e bilo ubivano...ima eden sluchaj deka dozina bulgarski devojki sa se hvurlile ot skala samo za da ne gi vzemat turcite i da rodat turski bebeta! ne sme poroben narod...celata si ni kultura sme e zapazili i e pazime do den dneshen.
concrete Ti preporacaa nekoj si Profesor od Johns Hopkins po psihijatrija, scecijaliziran za multiple personality disorder!! Nemoj da gubis vreme pastirajki razni gluposti po forumov, pobrzaj so vreme,dodeka simptomite se uste benigni, takvite raboti ne se za igranje, mozat da bidat mnogu neprijatni!!!! Ej da ne zaboravam, nemam informacija , a onoj kup Pomaci sto luge ke bea toa, mozebi znaes. A za kulturata ne brzaj mnogu , sega kako idni evropejci ke treba da znaes sto e toa copyright, na toa tie pazat mnogu. Poarno izmislete nesto drugo so vreme inaku ke ve odereme za licencata.
Misirkov Interesno e deka i Grcite svakjaat t.e. ja znaele odsekogas visitnata za nas Makedoncite. Eve sto veli najeminentniot grcki istoricar, Konstantin Paparigopulos, za periodot medju 6-9 vek vo svoeto delo "Istorija na Grckata nacija": "Gorenavedeniot shteten so Mohamedanite mir (686 godina) ne moze da bide objasnet inaku osven so vojnata, koja Justinijan ja otpocna vednas protiv Slovenite vo Makedonija kako i protiv vostanatite vo Mizija Bugari........Onie Sloveni istanaa tolku opasni otkako stanaa sojuznici na Bugarite." (tom Treti, str. 257) Znaci i vo periodot medju 6-9 ti vek za koj period najmnogu se dzapaat "Bugarite", Grkot jasno si kazuva deka postoi razlika medju Sklaviniite -- drzavnite edinici na teritorijata na Makedonija spored koi ni go nametnale imeto "Sloveni" -- i Bugarite vo Mizija. Patem, za onie sto ne znaat, Bugarite si go smenile imeto vo "Mizi".
Batbayan So what you are saying is that present day inhabitants of the land of Macedonia are Slavs.
Maleshevo Tatar, Macedonians were always "Slavs". They were called by the Romans after the ocupation of Macedonia and in the middle ages by the Greeks "Sclavini". From "Sclavin" comes "Slav".
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Fakt e deka nosat politicko ime "Bugari", no kolku od niv navistina se od makedonsko potelo? Eden ne tolku poznat no evropski priznat makedonski istoricar od Skopje, koj sega raboti vo Germanija, se slozuva so tebe. No sepak mislam deka del, da ne recam dobar del e turko-vlaska meshavina. Znaci za nikakvi Bugari ne stanuva zbor, no se postavuva prasanjeto kakva e taa mesavina, i koj del od narodot tamu se Makedonci? Jas mislam 1/3 od celokupnata populacija.
Zborot Vlasi, pak ke ti kazam deka ne e poim koj oznachuva nacija. Toa e zbor koj mozebi oznachuval sloboden trgovec vo "Vizantija". No najverojatno e vaka, Aroman = Neromanec, no so uchestvo vo vlasta. Moze da vodi poteklo i od zborot vlast. I den deneska crkovnite lica, za znachenjeto koj istoricharite go upotrebuvaat Vizantijski, imaat sinonim aramejski ili aromanski. I kako moze da e dobar del meshavina koga so Asparuh doshle 20000 na teritorija kade shto imalo milionsko naselenie. Ne sluchajno se nametnal jazikot...
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
Interesno e deka i Grcite svakjaat t.e. ja znaele odsekogas visitnata za nas Makedoncite. Eve sto veli najeminentniot grcki istoricar, Konstantin Paparigopulos, za periodot medju 6-9 vek vo svoeto delo "Istorija na Grckata nacija": "Gorenavedeniot shteten so Mohamedanite mir (686 godina) ne moze da bide objasnet inaku osven so vojnata, koja Justinijan ja otpocna vednas protiv Slovenite vo Makedonija kako i protiv vostanatite vo Mizija Bugari........Onie Sloveni istanaa tolku opasni otkako stanaa sojuznici na Bugarite." (tom Treti, str. 257) Znaci i vo periodot medju 6-9 ti vek za koj period najmnogu se dzapaat "Bugarite", Grkot jasno si kazuva deka postoi razlika medju Sklaviniite -- drzavnite edinici na teritorijata na Makedonija spored koi ni go nametnale imeto "Sloveni" -- i Bugarite vo Mizija. Patem, za onie sto ne znaat, Bugarite si go smenile imeto vo "Mizi".
tc tc tc...ot site istoricheski fakti ti izvadi grcki letopisi...lele majko! nema vezhe. (jug), -e , , (drzava) (bugarite). a (ushte) . e - , (site) (niv). " " : " a (zemja), ja "" (, grad v severna bulgarija) () e a . 870 .". . . 505 . , . . (spremo niv) 80 . ( 480 . 559 ./) 15 , - . . e , 499 . . ( . , ), (pobedila) 15- (iljadna) 520 , 4 . (site) . " - - ." 512 ., 70 , . , ( 491 . 517 .). , - , , toa ti e istorijata kristalno chista i vidima! , (sozdava) , (vleguva) . , , , , . , 5 6 , " ", - , " ". , , .. . - , . /, / ( - , - e). ( - , , - , - - , .). -, , . , - . ps- pozdravi ot asparuhovite bulgari do kuberovite bulgari[:D] bate, samo da ti kazhem neshto...egejska makedonija e kolko cela vardarska i pirinska...toa e nasha teritorija, moja i tvoja...vmesto da se obedinime sreshtu tea grcki pederasi nie se karame pomezdu si[:(][:(]
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
quote:
Etnosite shto gi nabrojuvash vo Bugarija se malcinstvo. Ogromnoto mnozinstvo na lugjeto vo Bugarija vo krvta imaat Makedonski geni isti kako nashite sega i vo antichko minato, no ednostavno se lazeni i se pishale kako narod koj defakto ne postoi. Razmisli malku na ovaa osnova. Istoto go mislam i za Srbite i za golem del od narodot vo Albanija.
pozdravi Jamajka! brako, son ste sonile vo Skopsko sto Filipa e vas dedo, a Filipica - vasa babovica!!! Toa sto: Filip II Makedonski e makedonski car koj sto ja unnistil grckata armija i gi porobil grcite - e istoriski fakt i vistina, no bez ukraskite deka ste gi turile!!! A od vistinata nema beganje! Jas sakam da te prasam: dobro, nie ne sme nikakvi bugari, tuku sme luge so makedonski koren - kak trebe nie da se zovem spored teb i kakvo da e imeto na nasta drzava? Neli ako sme i nie Makedonci i drzavata ni Makedonija - ke stanem 2 Makedonii i 2 isti naroda??? Sto ke pravame togava - ke se tepame koj e povistinski Makedonec eli ke se obedenuvame - kako brakja!?!? A reci mi!!!! ajde pozdravi
Pishi se ti Makedonec, i neka cel narod vo vashata drzava se pishe Makedonci, pa posle sve samoto ke si dojde.
goce delchev haha [/quote] Pishi se ti Makedonec, i neka cel narod vo vashata drzava se pishe Makedonci, pa posle sve samoto ke si dojde. [/quote] a shto ke rechesh za taa promena: Pishi se ti Bulgarin, i neka cel narod vo vashata drzava se pishe Bulgari, pa posle sve samoto ke si dojde.[:D] hahaha[8D] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a?
goce delchev jamajka! stvarno li zhiveesh v jamajka?? nishto, nema znachenie... sakam da te pitam. ako albancite prevzemaat makedonija, shto ke pravash? chestno mi otgovori
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
jamajka! stvarno li zhiveesh v jamajka?? nishto, nema znachenie... sakam da te pitam. ako albancite prevzemaat makedonija, shto ke pravash? chestno mi otgovori
Toa shto go pravel pradedo mi vo Tursko, ke se boram za Makedonija.
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
haha
Pishi se ti Makedonec, i neka cel narod vo vashata drzava se pishe Makedonci, pa posle sve samoto ke si dojde. [/quote] a shto ke rechesh za taa promena: Pishi se ti Bulgarin, i neka cel narod vo vashata drzava se pishe Bulgari, pa posle sve samoto ke si dojde.[:D] hahaha[8D] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a? [/quote] Jas ti kazav koi se prichinite shto ne se pishuvam bugar, deka takov etnikum ne postoi. Ti vo nieden moment ne go iznegira toa, dovolno argumentirano.
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
haha
Pishi se ti Makedonec, i neka cel narod vo vashata drzava se pishe Makedonci, pa posle sve samoto ke si dojde.
a shto ke rechesh za taa promena: Pishi se ti Bulgarin, i neka cel narod vo vashata drzava se pishe Bulgari, pa posle sve samoto ke si dojde.[:D] hahaha[8D] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a? [/quote] Jas ti kazav koi se prichinite shto ne se pishuvam bugar, deka takov etnikum ne postoi. Ti vo nieden moment ne go iznegira toa, dovolno argumentirano. [/quote] bate! jaz ti pokazav eden kup karti na koito mozhe da poglednesh i da vidish koi sa etnosite na evropa...eto ti example pak Map of T.Safarik, Czech (1842). -->> http://img67.exs.cx/img67/5561/Safariknarodi.jpg Racial map of central and South Europe. Taken from F. W. Putzgers Historischer Schul-Atlas, 1905---->>http://img56.exs.cx/img56/5857/VolkerkartevonMittel-undSudosteuropa.jpg Linguistic Divisions of Europe in 1914--->>http://www2.bc.edu/~heineman/maps/ethnic.jpg and this one was suggested by Great_Macedonian http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1923.jpg sakam da vidim edna karta na deka pishe ima makedonski etnos i dneshna bulgarija sa makedonci....imash li dokazatelstva? ne...osven ako srbite ne sa vi napravile, do e drugo prashane...a dedo ti koja godina se e rodil? sigurno predi 1944, a togava dneshna "makedonija" ne e imalo, a e imalo samo edna durzhava, bulgarija...ti javno neshtesh da priemesh istorijata, toa vi e problema na site..dedo ti (kakto i moja pradedo e bil chetnik v sandanski) sa se borili sreshtu turcite za osvobozhdavane na ostanalata bulgarija, makedonija (toa rajon e bil osvoboden posleden ot turcite) i v San-Stefanskija dogovor 1878 >> [img]http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/balkans/sanstefano.gif[/img] bulgarija si e vzela nejnata zemja! pozdravi! ps-ne mi otgovori..shto ke pravash koga shiptarete prevzemat makedonija?
Misirkov --------------------------------------------------------------------- " (jug), -e , , (drzava) (bugarite). a (ushte) ." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ova gore e mnogu karakteristicno za kolektivnoto ludilo medju "Bugarite". Imeno, spored niv, Makedonija DENES bila poznata kako takva, a demek vo istorijata bila poznata kako (dolna) Bugarija i toa uste od "drevnosta".[:D] Uste koga pocnaa da vadat tezi deka Aleksandar Makedonski bil Bugarin, rabotite pocnaa da dobivaat klinicki tek. Aj neka postiraat uste malce, mnogu se zazelev da se smeam. .
goce delchev alo "makedoncite" sakam da vi prasham ushte neshto....imeto "makedonija" btw ne e staro-bylgarsko a e grcko.... The name Macedonia (Makedonia, in Greek) is totally Greek. According to ancient Greek mythology, Makedon was the name of the tribeleader of the Makedones, that was the part of the protohellenic tribe of Makednoi that spread throughout the area of Western, Southern and Central Macedonia. The name Makedon comes from the name Makednos which derives from the Greek word Makos (that is the word Mikos in the doric dialect) meaning lenght. The Makedones (or Macedonians) were regarded as tall people, and that's why they acquired that name: That analysis is correct because even Homer uses the term "makednis" for tall, while talking about the leaves of tall poplar trees:
Divider Na fenikiski Makuduenia znacelo golemiot svet! Pukni od maka tatarce!!
Kuber Varkuni List of Bulgar tribes Tribes thought to have been Bulgaric in origin include: Utighur Kutrighur (Kotrags) The Kuber Varkuni Asparukh's Horde Altasek's Horde The Unok-vndur federation Dissolution of Great Bulgaria and subsequent migration: ...A fourth group of Bulgars under Kuber settled in western Macedonia and eastern Albania where it formed a khanate, which launched joint attacks on Byzantium with the Slavs. .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar svetovna enziklopedia batka :) E makedoncheta imate "malko" balgarska krav
Maleshevo , , j, 680 . . j, ( 70.000 j), . j , j, . . , j j j. (Campus Kerameensis; ). , j , j . 21. j . , . j , j (I, II, 1980). ji j j J. 1986, 1-71, .1-32, j , jouca j, j. j-j , j ja j . j 7. , . , j , . . j . . j j j, . , ? . . - (Σ 15.000) ȣ , ȣ . , , ȣ ȣ, ȣ .. !
Divider Filip, tatko mu na Aleksandar bil od Juzna Afrika no po poteklo bugarin, prv bratuced na Kuberoviot cukundedo koj zaedno so vikinzite plovel po svetot. Od tamu dosol vo Makednija i gi napadnal Grcite.Jas mislam deka ova zvuci najvistinito.
goce delchev misirkov kato se smeesh taka se smeesh na sobstvenata si istorija! a sega rechi mi...koj srbin ti e napisal ovaa shto si mi do dal da chitam? bate, edna shepa slavjani na balkanskija ne e mogla da izbie kubrat i vojskata mu...a toj e razbil vizantiiskata! pravi si smetka...vizantija e bila imperia...a taka sa imenuvali i OHRID, VARDAR, VARNA...bate lichi si kolko ti e izpran mozuka kato veruvash na srpska istorija, koja ti e suzdala predi 50 godini....a ovaa shto sum napisal, ne e ot moj del a ot d-r georgi nedkov, VMRO-Ruse ps- nema tuka lazhi...vervaj mi;) [:D] , , , . , , , , . , 5 6 , " ", - , " ". , , .. . - , . /, / / - , - /. / - , , - , - - , ./. -, , . , - . , . , - , - , . - 839 ., . , , , / 705 ./. - . , 705 . , "" . . , .
Divider A be juznoafrikanec, sakas da spamuvas temi ili od sto te boli glava bladas?
Divider ...If we bear in mind that Princess Olga - the first Russian woman converted to Christianity in order to preserve the independence of Russia and to gain autonomy in ecclesiastical affairs - was a very shrewd diplomat, then we are in agreement with the claim of Russian scholar M.D. Priselkov (1881 -1941), who first promoted the thesis that Olga had been Christianised in Ohrid! Priselkov's conclusions were based on the fact that at the time of converting Russians into Christians, Russia had no firm and permanent ties with Byzantium and that the Christian teachings adopted by the Russians were distinctly different from those of Byzantium. Therefore, Kiev Russia took Christianity not from Byzantium but from the Archbishop of Ohrid. The Russian Church, according to Priselkov, was one of the parishes of the Ohrid Archbishopric...
Divider ...The christening of Kiev Russia, chronologically, parallels the existence of the Empire of Tsar Samuel. Samuel's Church, the Ohrid Archbishopric, which raised its status to that of Patriarchy during his reign, maintained strong relations with many Slav peoples, a fact that is undisputed. (3) Some scholars (and M.D. Priselkov in particular) thought that the Ohrid Archbishopric maintained its jurisdiction over the Russian Church even after Macedonia fell under Byzantium's rule during the reign of Basil II. Priselkov thought that the grandson of Princess Olga, Prince Vladimir, was also Christianised in Ohrid and that it may have happened in 987 AD. Vladimir's first wife (her name was not preserved), the mother of his sons Boris and Gleb, the first Russian saints, according to Priselkov could have been a member of the family of Tsar Samuel because of the fact that their Christian names, Roman and David, were very common among Samuel's courtiers. Another possibility is that the relations between Kiev and Ohrid cooled off after Prince Vladimir married Ana, the sister of the Byzantine emperor, after he was widowed by the death of his first wife...
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Znaci spored tebe zitelite na Slovenija, Ungarija i Hrvatka e bolgari?? What a crack of shite.
With all my respects - here's my comment in .....Bulgarian (desperately and really sorry for the language): " , : , , - .."
Divider -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- World Map - Map of Europe - Bulgaria -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bulgarian is the official language in Bulgaria and it is spoken by 8.5 million people. Bulgarian has two main dialects. The eastern dialect is used as the literary language. Bulgaria was ruled under the Ottoman Empire for 500 years until 1878. Bulgarian survived in the countryside while the language was heavily influenced by the Turks, Macedonians, and Romanies (Gypsies) in the cities. The language situation in Bulgaria is rather complicated. About one million people in Bulgaria speak Turkish. At present, the Macedonians are spread out over Yugoslavia, Greece, and Bulgaria. About 250,000 Macedonians live in Bulgaria, and speak Macedonian. It is used only as a spoken language. It is similar to Bulgarian. The language of the Romanies is called Romani, and is used only as a spoken language. There are large amounts of loanwords in Bulgarian especially from Turkish and Greek. People try to avoid using them when writing, but they survive in the spoken language. The vocabulary is also influenced by Russian. Here you are, again, stooopid!! You stole, now give it back!!
Strelec Hmmm... goce delchev, ne e ova dovolno... Imas li uste, ili samo tolku e?
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Strelec
Hmmm... goce delchev, ne e ova dovolno... Imas li uste, ili samo tolku e?
bate imam ushte mnogo[:D] ako sakash da vidish vistina pogledni vseki atlas i pokazva isto! [:D] ps- ako sakash oshte kazhi mi ot koj vid sakash...ethnographs, linguistics, topographical??
Misirkov VIDI OVDE: http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/map.html Pazi samo da ne te fati napad sega. [;)]
Maleshevo , , . . 19 . . http://www.macedonia-info.org/maps/voelker_u_sprachkarte_1912b.jpg http://www.macedonia-info.org/maps/South-East-Europe-Ethnic_map_1910.jpg http://www.macedonia-info.org/maps/Balkan_ethnics_London_in_1909_by_Alfred_Stead1.jpg http://www.macedonia-info.org/maps/Ethnographische_Karte_der_Balkanhalbinsel_1913.JPG
goce delchev http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/images/macedonia_bianconi.jpg bate tuka si pishe: F. Bianconi: Carte commerciale de la province do Macedoine, 1:1,000,000, 48x37 cm. Paris, 1885 tochno taka, provincija na bulgarija...neli nema nuzhda da ti prevezhdam provinicija? a drugata karta: Map of Macedonia produced by the Macedonian colony in St Petersburg 1918....bate sled pyrvata svetovna vojna makedonija e kradat surbete i gurcite ot bulgarija...i pochva sozdavaneto na izkustvena durzhava.;) a za drugite karti vse sa sovremenni i ne pishe nikakva "legend" mozhesh da vidish deka sa chertani ot srbe shtoto sa slozhili blagoevgrad v FYROM...tolko sa negramotni [:D] ama ti nali si edin ot niv...zatoa mi triesh mnenieto..ne ne znajat istinata
Strelec
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
...ps- ako sakash oshte kazhi mi ot koj vid sakash...ethnographs, linguistics, topographical??
... ... !
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by noname
quote:
. - (Σ 15.000) ȣ , ȣ . , , ȣ ȣ, ȣ .. !
Predpostavuvaam ovoi material ot Mikulcic si go propustil NAMERNO??: " #1116; j , . (. ) #1107; . . . ( ) 83 #1114; (. 6). [16] , , j. j j, #1114; , . j () j, - j . 9. 10. . j J j j, - (). . j j #1114; . . j (. 6). - j . , . [17] ( ) . - j j #1114; . j. j j , (. 6). . . [18] ( 9. 10. , , j . , J j, j . j , ( , ), , - j ojapco (. . 6). [25] j j 9. . 35 j, j (j 8. ). #1114; . j , () j, ja j j. j, j , j j j, j. j , Ereja j J , "". j j . "
, . : , , Ł ! Σ . . .. , , , . , .. , , . ( , ) 19 20 .. . .
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
, , . . 19 . . http://www.macedonia-info.org/maps/voelker_u_sprachkarte_1912b.jpg http://www.macedonia-info.org/maps/South-East-Europe-Ethnic_map_1910.jpg http://www.macedonia-info.org/maps/Balkan_ethnics_London_in_1909_by_Alfred_Stead1.jpg http://www.macedonia-info.org/maps/Ethnographische_Karte_der_Balkanhalbinsel_1913.JPG
bate na nekoj (osobeno na poslednata karta) izobshto nemat i "legen" da objasnjava koe kakvo e...a toa paul e edinstvenija sreshtu ostanalija svet...javno e platen ot srbete da gi napravi tea karti...i kazah ti veche....v 20 vek makedonija e vzimat ot bulgarija susedite i...tova e. daj mi "linguistic" karta na makedonija. nema takava (mozhe da ima ot nekoj bolesten mozuk platen ot srbete)
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
, , . , , . Paul Robert Magocsi, Alfred_Stead 1909 . . , , , .
abe pile! (ne mi davash da ti vikam bate po nekoja prichina) http://users.tyenet.com/kozlich/oldserbia.htm <<---eto ti kartata polzvana na alfredcho...toj pishe za albancite v surbija...a ne za makedonija, javno e izuchil samo za albancite i ne e douchil za "makedoncite" hehe, prostimo e...vseki pravi greshki![8D] i e edinstven sreshtu hiljadi drugi (ne srpski agenti) ps- znachi se priznavate za slavjani? taka pishe na kartata...znachi megas alexandros e govoril slavjanski ezik?
goce delchev bate...Paul Robert Magocsi e profesor po politika v universiteta v toronto...nali ti kazah veche..ne sakam deneshni sovremeni karti na minaloto! sakam karti ot samata 1909 godina...a ne 1909 godina ama pravena v 2000! ne vazhat tvojte suvremenni karti
Maleshevo , , . , , . Paul Robert Magocsi, Alfred_Stead 1909 . . , , , .
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
, , . , , . Paul Robert Magocsi, Alfred_Stead 1909 . . , , , .
abe pile! (ne mi davash da ti vikam bate po nekoja prichina) http://users.tyenet.com/kozlich/oldserbia.htm <<---eto ti kartata polzvana na alfredcho...toj pishe za albancite v surbija...a ne za makedonija, javno e izuchil samo za albancite i ne e douchil za "makedoncite" hehe, prostimo e...vseki pravi greshki![8D] i e edinstven sreshtu hiljadi drugi (ne srpski agenti) ps- znachi se priznavate za slavjani? taka pishe na kartata...znachi megas alexandros e govoril slavjanski ezik?
[:D], 19 . , , . ? , -, , , , , , . , , , , - , . , , , , . , , !
Maleshevo .. -, .. , , . , , , .
Misirkov Tatarot sega kje kjuti, kje se vitka, nema da znae sto da kaze zosto nisto ne mu rekle za ovie karti vo BAN.[:D] Ne gi unistile na vreme! A sto da kazeme za najeminentnite ruski kartografi Zarjanko i Komarov, koi uste vo 1890 godina vo nivnata togas najnova karta na Balkanskiot Poluostrov, kje zabelezat: "...deka Makedoncite ne se nitu Bugari, nitu Srbi, tuku poseben slovenski narod."[:0].........[8D]
jamajka "Bugar", pak ne mi davash razumen odgovor za potekloto na zborot Bugar, negovot znachenje i taka nataka.
Misirkov A bre Jamajka, ne gledas deka toj ne znae nosot da si go izbrise - a ne da ti objasni od kade poteknuva etnonimot "Bugar". Mu dale copy-paste da si gi leci kompleksite i toa e. A Strelec pak uste go s'ska -- se skinav od smeenje.[:D] Strelec, daj be ne go sili deteto, zosto znaes kako velat kaj niv: "Lud umora nema". Tatar: vo trudot "Slika za Evropa 1789-1914", Oksford, 1972, ucebnik po geografija vo evroskoloto vo Brisel, na str, 125 e prikazana karta pod reden broj 9 so naslov na angliski jazik "Southeast Europe around 1850" vo koja etnoloska karta se prikazani slednite narodi: "Cesi, Slovaci, Germanci, Sloveni, Poljaci, Ungarci, Hrvati, Srbi, Albanci, Makedonci i Grci." I jas te sakam tebe![;)]
jamajka "Bugarive" go dishat posledniot zdiv, zavrshi nivnata posledna kapka sila za hegemonija... toa ti e, nishto shto e izmisleno ne stoi vechno, tuku se gushi vo svoite lagi. "Bugari", spremete se da i se vratite na majka Makedonija.
Maleshevo .. .
Maleshevo , , .
jamajka Misirkov, Bugarskive tezi se tolku patetichni shto poveke ni nosat korist otkolku shteta :)))
jamajka Abe i jas primetiv deka mnogu nekako se osokolija vo posledno vreme, neznam dali ni se sitat poradi referendumot ili e vo prashanje nekoja shansa shto ja vidoa so priznavanjeto.
goce delchev maleshevo! sakam eden otgovor..zashto mi postojanno brishesh kato postiram neshta? kak sakash da ti otgovoram kato samo me brishete be srbe? ajde chekam otgovor...a toa deka go postiram e napisano vo skopje ot "makedonci" jamajka: BOULGAR written in Greek its pronauncing VOULGAR, as in greek language "B" its read as "V". BOULGAR = VOULGAR BARBAR = VARVAR etc BASSILEOS = VASILLEOS etc... razbra li? toa trebva da se zove ww.forum.serbija.com ;) vie samo me triete...da ti serem u foruma sprski! znachi sve shte e vistina ne postoi za vas? samo si gledate srpskata propaganda i pluvate v sobstvenite si lazhi.
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
.. .
Toa da, ama vredi da probash koga vistinata e na tvoja strana. Ako ne uspeesh, togash ke go iznerviras.
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
maleshevo! sakam eden otgovor..zashto mi postojanno brishesh kato postiram neshta? kak sakash da ti otgovoram kato samo me brishete be srbe? ajde chekam otgovor...a toa deka go postiram e napisano vo skopje ot "makedonci"
, , . . , . . ? , . . .
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
A bre Jamajka, ne gledas deka toj ne znae nosot da si go izbrise - a ne da ti objasni od kade poteknuva etnonimot "Bugar". Mu dale copy-paste da si gi leci kompleksite i toa e. A Strelec pak uste go s'ska -- se skinav od smeenje.[:D] Strelec, daj be ne go sili deteto, zosto znaes kako velat kaj niv: "Lud umora nema". Tatar: vo trudot "Slika za Evropa 1789-1914", Oksford, 1972, ucebnik po geografija vo evroskoloto vo Brisel, na str, 125 e prikazana karta pod reden broj 9 so naslov na angliski jazik "Southeast Europe around 1850" vo koja etnoloska karta se prikazani slednite narodi: "Cesi, Slovaci, Germanci, Sloveni, Poljaci, Ungarci, Hrvati, Srbi, Albanci, Makedonci i Grci." I jas te sakam tebe![;)]
vidim deka uchebnika za 2 klas e napisan ot angliiski glupaci kato ne sa pisale bulgari....a za "makedonci" izobshto da ne prikazvame....bate, znam che ste site bedni tamo ama si vzemi malko ponovo izdanie 1970...postojanno se nauchavat novi neshta i novi razkopki izlizat na jave...kato naprimer razkopkite v edno selo (zabravih imeto) v bulgarija e nameren skelet na chovek, ot predi 9,000 godini....;)[8D] ps- vie si imate "drzhava" ne vi sakame albancite...trebva da prashate srbete da vi pojasnat istroijata malko poveke...car samuil e bulgarski car (zatova nikifor e bil narechen bulgaro-ubiec) armijata na samuil e bulgarska...a ne znam kak izliza toj da e makedonski car...
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
.. .
Toa da, ama vredi da probash koga vistinata e na tvoja strana. Ako ne uspeesh, togash ke go iznerviras.
, . , . , .
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
maleshevo! sakam eden otgovor..zashto mi postojanno brishesh kato postiram neshta? kak sakash da ti otgovoram kato samo me brishete be srbe? ajde chekam otgovor...a toa deka go postiram e napisano vo skopje ot "makedonci"
, , . . , . . ? , . . .
bate tea statii za "tajnite na makedonija" ne sa sliki i dobre vidish...ama moderatora na foruma pak gi brishe...epa shto da pravam. ne kazvam deka sve shto ne e bugarsko e srpsko...kazvam che makedonija e posrbena... ps- ne mrazim surbete, naprotiv imam eden dobur prijatel od niv! mrazim fashisticki srbi deto sa ni otkradnale makedonija i sa promili mozucite na bulgarite tam! ps- kolko dulga edna luzha da postoi, vinagi izliza na jave
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
maleshevo! sakam eden otgovor..zashto mi postojanno brishesh kato postiram neshta? kak sakash da ti otgovoram kato samo me brishete be srbe? ajde chekam otgovor...a toa deka go postiram e napisano vo skopje ot "makedonci" jamajka: BOULGAR written in Greek its pronauncing VOULGAR, as in greek language "B" its read as "V". BOULGAR = VOULGAR BARBAR = VARVAR etc BASSILEOS = VASILLEOS etc... razbra li? toa trebva da se zove ww.forum.serbija.com ;) vie samo me triete...da ti serem u foruma sprski! znachi sve shte e vistina ne postoi za vas? samo si gledate srpskata propaganda i pluvate v sobstvenite si lazhi.
Bugar, greshka si tuka malce, Vo "Grchkata" alfabeta, Vita otsekogash si ja chitale Vita, zapadot tek vo vremeto na renesansata (14-15) vek. od neznaenje ja preinachil vo Beta. Vulgarite od 15 vek se prekrstile vo Bugari. Vasilij Vulgarokton stanal Basil bulgarotkonus, Vizant stanal Bizant, Vulgar stanal Bulgar, Ovie gafovi, za zal ja izvrtuvaat cela istorija, a vas vi gi zamachkuvaat ochite da se pishuvate neshto shto ne ste. Vulgari e naziv za nevernici.
Misirkov Maleshevo, imaj razbiranje, Tatrot e prisuten na forumot za da izvrsi fizioloska potreba.[:D] Tatar: procitaj sto veli Georgi Bakalov vo 1890 godina: "In the villages of Macedonia, one meets peasants of a single nationality speaking a Slavic language and belonging to the Eastern Orthodox faith. Nine out of ten of these people, despite their being the subject of dispue between three adjoining countries, would reply in response to the question as go their nationality, that they were Macedonian." G. Bakalov, "The Pretenders on Macednia", Varna 1890, p. 22. I az te obicam tebe.[;)]
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
bate mnogo lesno e da ti dokazhem kak bulgarite sa gi posrbili v "makedonija" pogledni na slikata>> kak e napisano makedonija? [img]http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G04/02/A04_02/sa2201.htm[/img] ....a kak se pishe dnes? makedonija<<< dumata e na bulgarski...a dumata e na srpski;) na slikata koja ot dvete e napisano? [:D]na bugarski!
Bugar. Aj ke ti postavam polesno prashanje, poshto toa so poimot ne ti ide. Kakov jazik zborele asparu i omurtag, a kakov jazik zborish ti deneska ?
Misirkov Toj vekje odgovori -- pra-bugarski i "staro-bugarski" bile isti![:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
jamajka Ili pa neshto ushte polesno, Kolku od "Bugarite", denes, lichat na Asparuh i Omurtag?
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
Ne, tie se huni, so kosi ochi zolta rasa itn. Koi doshle tuka so minoren broj na lugje i bile asimilirani od Makedoncite. Toest se pretopile, jazichno, kulturno, verski, genski itn. Poimot Vulgar do pred 200 godini ne oznachuval poim za etnikum, narod ili pleme. Toa bil atribut za nevernici od bilo koj narod.
, ! . ? , ? ?? , ? ? .
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
Ne, tie se huni, so kosi ochi zolta rasa itn. Koi doshle tuka so minoren broj na lugje i bile asimilirani od Makedoncite. Toest se pretopile, jazichno, kulturno, verski, genski itn. Poimot Vulgar do pred 200 godini ne oznachuval poim za etnikum, narod ili pleme. Toa bil atribut za nevernici od bilo koj narod.
, ! . ? , ? ?? , ? ? .
C C C, znachi ne bile zolta rasa a bile so mongoloiden izgled, neznam koj tropa.
goce delchev bate az si govorim na chist bulgarski ezik! zashto me pitash? dali ne znaesh? pa i ti go "sboruvash" sushtija ezik be! koga e imalo "makedonski" ezik? kazhi mi? nikogash do misirkov ili kak beshe imeto..nema vezhe.. v istorijata vinagi e imalo "nenormalni luge" koi sa prevrteli ot tolko uchene i sa pochnale da pishat gluposti v uchebnicite na 2 klas. ama dokazatelsvtoto e tochno kogato vidish deka ima 1000 karti, i drugi zapiski shto velat drugo! a i nekako chudno mi zvuchi ovaa shto e napishano s glavna duma "Makedonci"...v Bulgarija etnosite vinagi se pishat s malka bukva (example: bulgarin, germanec, rusnak...) a samo v Makedonija se pishat etnosite s glavna bukva...hmmm...zashto ne kazva koj sa tie 3 drzhavi? bate ot kade gi vadish tea be, kade v srpsko skopje sa pechateni tea? i v koj uchebnik sa tureni? i az te obicham tebe[:)]
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
bate mnogo lesno e da ti dokazhem kak bulgarite sa gi posrbili v "makedonija" pogledni na slikata>> kak e napisano makedonija? [img]http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G04/02/A04_02/sa2201.htm[/img] ....a kak se pishe dnes? makedonija<<< dumata e na bulgarski...a dumata e na srpski;) na slikata koja ot dvete e napisano? [:D]na bugarski!
, , ? , ? ?
jamajka Maleshevo poimot bugari ne se koristel do pred 15 vek, tuku vulgari.
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
Ne, tie se huni, so kosi ochi zolta rasa itn. Koi doshle tuka so minoren broj na lugje i bile asimilirani od Makedoncite. Toest se pretopile, jazichno, kulturno, verski, genski itn. Poimot Vulgar do pred 200 godini ne oznachuval poim za etnikum, narod ili pleme. Toa bil atribut za nevernici od bilo koj narod.
, ! . ? , ? ?? , ? ? .
C C C, znachi ne bile zolta rasa a bile so mongoloiden izgled, neznam koj tropa.
, . . .
goce delchev ajde sega "ke" vi kazhem neshto i na dvamata...nie ne sme tatari, tova e stara logika i veke ne se izpolzva...prabulgarite sa doshli ot zemite v dneshen iran i afganistan! zaseleli sa se prvo vo zemite na makedonija i sa se tepale s vizantiicite! neli vi kazah! ama sigurno "moderatora" go e izbrisal! kato sa se smeshali s slavjanite sa napravili edna drzhava...i nie sme potomcite na tea meshani rasi! bate ne znam tova za severna bulgarija ama ima mngo rusokosi i tam! a toa che makedonija e bil star rajon (kato i trakija) e drug vupros. zatoa sa se narichali makedonci...zatoa sa se narichali i trakiici...i dobrudjanci...ti izobshto bil li si v severna bulgarija????
jamajka Deneshnite Mongoli isto imaat potemen ten i se smetaat za zoltata rasa. Site tn turski, tatarski, mongolski narodi spagjaat vo zoltata rasa na lugje. A asparuh i omurtag bile del od niv. ne se zolta rasa samo kinezite.
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
Maleshevo poimot bugari ne se koristel do pred 15 vek, tuku vulgari.
? ? , .. ?
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
ajde sega "ke" vi kazhem neshto i na dvamata...nie ne sme tatari, tova e stara logika i veke ne se izpolzva...prabulgarite sa doshli ot zemite v dneshen iran i afganistan! zaseleli sa se prvo vo zemite na makedonija i sa se tepale s vizantiicite! neli vi kazah! ama sigurno "moderatora" go e izbrisal! kato sa se smeshali s slavjanite sa napravili edna drzhava...i nie sme potomcite na tea meshani rasi! bate ne znam tova za severna bulgarija ama ima mngo rusokosi i tam! a toa che makedonija e bil star rajon (kato i trakija) e drug vupros. zatoa sa se narichali makedonci...zatoa sa se narichali i trakiici...i dobrudjanci...ti izobshto bil li si v severna bulgarija????
Ajde sega arievci da ne ispadnete.
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
Maleshevo poimot bugari ne se koristel do pred 15 vek, tuku vulgari.
? ? , .. ?
epa nema ime, ne se narod. Vulgari bile site nevernici. Vo dadeniot moment toa bile horda nomadi, predvodeni od asparuh, i Kuber, koi kratko vreme vladeele so odredena oblast. Slichno kako Vandalite vo S. Afrika. Posle toa im se gubi sekakva traga. Toest se pretopuvaat so starosedelcite(sloveni).
jamajka Kogas prvpat se sretnuvaat volshkite bugari ?
goce delchev 1)Bulgarite njamat nishto obshto s tatarite ili mongolcite!! ke ti kazhem zashto. Zashtoto v Imennika na Bulgarskite KHANOVE si pishuva celija bugarski rod,no kakto e bilo po tradicija v takuv imennik e trebvalo da se svurzhe daden opravljavasht rod (V sluchaia DULO) sus Drug opravliavasht i po-golem rod.Zatova Atila e postaven kato nash rodonachalnik!! 2)Mongolskite titli HAN nemat nishto obshto s titoluvaneto na bulgarskite vladeteli!!Titlata na bulgarskite vladeteli se pishe zaedno i po slednia nachin KHANIUVIGII Koeto v prevod oznachava deka choveka tituluvan taka e KHAN v Boga slunce/nebe(TANGRA) vervasht i ot nego sili dadena mu!! 3)shte spomena i drug fact koito zashtitava teoriata che nie ne sme TATARI,e. nekoi stari bulgarski dumi svu4at pochti po 100% istov nachin s nekoi iranski i pakistanski! 3.1)Ima danni v Kineski i indiiski hroniki deka imalo Varvarski narod poselen okolo Planinata Altai,zoveiki sebe si BULGAR(i).Sus sobstvena pismenost,kalendar i ezik!!! 4)Tatarite sa ot Mogngoloidnata rasa,a bulgarite sa ot Indo-Evropeiskata.Razlikite lesno se otkrivat!!!! [:)]
jamajka I ushte neshto, vo svetskata istorija Bugarite se ostatok od 2 pleminja na Hunite koi posle porazot na Atila edinstveni ostanale vo Predelite na deneshnata granica megju Ungarija i Romanija. Ovoj Batabayan ima neshto prethodno napishano za toa.
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
1)Bulgarite njamat nishto obshto s tatarite ili mongolcite!! ke ti kazhem zashto. Zashtoto v Imennika na Bulgarskite KHANOVE si pishuva celija bugarski rod,no kakto e bilo po tradicija v takuv imennik e trebvalo da se svurzhe daden opravljavasht rod (V sluchaia DULO) sus Drug opravliavasht i po-golem rod.Zatova Atila e postaven kato nash rodonachalnik!! 2)Mongolskite titli HAN nemat nishto obshto s titoluvaneto na bulgarskite vladeteli!!Titlata na bulgarskite vladeteli se pishe zaedno i po slednia nachin KHANIUVIGII Koeto v prevod oznachava deka choveka tituluvan taka e KHAN v Boga slunce/nebe(TANGRA) vervasht i ot nego sili dadena mu!! 3)shte spomena i drug fact koito zashtitava teoriata che nie ne sme TATARI,e. nekoi stari bulgarski dumi svu4at pochti po 100% istov nachin s nekoi iranski i pakistanski! 3.1)Ima danni v Kineski i indiiski hroniki deka imalo Varvarski narod poselen okolo Planinata Altai,zoveiki sebe si BULGAR(i).Sus sobstvena pismenost,kalendar i ezik!!! 4)Tatarite sa ot Mogngoloidnata rasa,a bulgarite sa ot Indo-Evropeiskata.Razlikite lesno se otkrivat!!!! [:)]
Bugar, Hunite, mongolite, turkite, tatarite, Se e toa eden narod koj vo razlichni vremenski period vrshel upadi vo evropa. Od tamu im se slichnostite vo titulite, jazikot i tn.
jamajka Nemate vrska so mongolskite kanovi, dzingis kan se pojavuva nezavisno od vas, i tochno e deka vashite hordi poteknuvaat od hordite na Atila. Samo ne e tochno deka Atila bil indoevropeec. So toa shto svojata prestlnina ja preselil vo Ungarija, ne mozel da go skrie svoeto poteklo od Mongolija.
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by goce delchev
ajde sega "ke" vi kazhem neshto i na dvamata...nie ne sme tatari, tova e stara logika i veke ne se izpolzva...prabulgarite sa doshli ot zemite v dneshen iran i afganistan! zaseleli sa se prvo vo zemite na makedonija i sa se tepale s vizantiicite! neli vi kazah! ama sigurno "moderatora" go e izbrisal! kato sa se smeshali s slavjanite sa napravili edna drzhava...i nie sme potomcite na tea meshani rasi! bate ne znam tova za severna bulgarija ama ima mngo rusokosi i tam! a toa che makedonija e bil star rajon (kato i trakija) e drug vupros. zatoa sa se narichali makedonci...zatoa sa se narichali i trakiici...i dobrudjanci...ti izobshto bil li si v severna bulgarija????
, . [img]http://www.macedonia-info.org/history/bulgarians/Bugari-Tatari.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.macedonia-info.org/history/bulgarians/Bulgarian_from_9th_century.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.macedonia-info.org/history/bulgarians/bugarka.jpg[/img] , , , , , , , . ? ( ), .
Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
Maleshevo poimot bugari ne se koristel do pred 15 vek, tuku vulgari.
? ? , .. ?
epa nema ime, ne se narod. Vulgari bile site nevernici. Vo dadeniot moment toa bile horda nomadi, predvodeni od asparuh, i Kuber, koi kratko vreme vladeele so odredena oblast. Slichno kako Vandalite vo S. Afrika. Posle toa im se gubi sekakva traga. Toest se pretopuvaat so starosedelcite(sloveni).
, , , . .
goce delchev http://www.kroraina.com/b_lang/bl_a_v.html poglednete go toa site. dokazva deka ne sme tatari i ne govorime tatarski!
jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo
quote:
Originally posted by jamajka
Maleshevo poimot bugari ne se koristel do pred 15 vek, tuku vulgari.
? ? , .. ?
epa nema ime, ne se narod. Vulgari bile site nevernici. Vo dadeniot moment toa bile horda nomadi, predvodeni od asparuh, i Kuber, koi kratko vreme vladeele so odredena oblast. Slichno kako Vandalite vo S. Afrika. Posle toa im se gubi sekakva traga. Toest se pretopuvaat so starosedelcite(sloveni).
, , , . .
Abe ne rekov deka nemale ime, samo imeto na narodot ne bilo Vulgari, tuku Huni. A zborot mi beshe deka togashna "Bugarija" i ne bila nacionalna drzava. "Carstvo Huna nestaje 454 godine. Dve Horde su ipak prezivele propast na severu Crnog Mora, Utiguri i Kutriguri, koji su danas poznati kao Bugari." enciklopedija Larousse 3 tom str. 292
goce delchev http://www.rossmodels.bg/femalemodels/denica_p/denica1.html bate idi tuka i mi kazhi kakvi tatarski ili mongolski cherti ima?? vie ne razbrahte li deka bulgarite sa smeshani mezdu hunni i slavjani? a isto i vie...ama vi e sram da se narechete taka
jamajka Abe da izmeshani ste 0.000001% Huni ostatokot slavjani
goce delchev bate kakvo shte kazhesh za sita? http://www.kroraina.com/b_lang/bl_a_v.html mislim deka i vie imate isti dumi?! neli? blagodari na asparuh i kubrat;) sakam da te prasham, kakvo ti e mnenieto za srbete (v minaloto, jugoslavija) imalo li e "makedonska kultura" po vreme na jugoslavija? ili site vi kafani bea pulni s lepa brena i srpski pjevacici? neli? ps- ne me razbiraj pogreshno...ja volim puno lepu brenu[8D]stvarno!
jamajka Abe za informacija, so 10 kaseti od lepa brena vo Bugarija mozeshe cel odmor da se pomine, pa vidi koj poveke ja sakal
goce delchev lele bato! skinah se ot smeh ))))))) ama dobro e tova, imash chuvstvo za humor. ama inache e vistina, mnogo se slushashe brena i u nas, ama mislim poveke u vas..ama prashaneto ne mi beshe taka...sakav da te pitam dali makedonskata kultura "sushtestvuvashe" po vreme na jugo? maj ne mnogo a? ps- kazi mi mnenieto ti za srbete
jamajka Abe srbite ni dozvolija da se pisheme kako sakame. Kazi mi ti edna rabota, kade beshe poizrazena komunistichkata propaganda, vo Jugoslavija ili vo Bugarija ?
goce delchev bate jamajko! idi na toa site: http://www.macedonianhistory.ca/ i klikni na prvata slika deka pishe: 1911 First Macedonian Church in Toronto...e pa vidish mnogo dobre deka ima 4 bajraka! a kato se zagledash poubavo, ke vidish deka sa belo, zeleno, i crveno! neli znaesh na koj e ovaa bajrak? a kato kliknesh 2 slike podolu i kliknesh na ca. 1934 SS. Cyril & Methody Church School...ke vidish najgore pishe "makedono-bulgarski" shkola;) toa sa edni ot prvite imigranti bulgari (ama na toa site sa sgreshila i sa pisale makedonci) v kanada ajde so zdrave! ps-bate nikogash ne sum velil deka komunizmot e dobro neshto...imashe komunizm kako i vo bugarija tako i vo jugo http://www.macedonianhistory.ca/images/early_immigration/first_church_1911.jpg
goce delchev http://www.macedonia-info.org/maps/voelker_u_sprachkarte_1912b.jpg .. " " "". , , "" "" ? , ? , ( ). - -, , ( ). ? 1:1 ( - - ). . , . "" , . . a, . , , . http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/images/mk_karta_1913a.JPG http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G04/02/sm2201.htm ... "I". "" "" ""!
concrete Abe Goce Delcev,ajde priberi se momce, dosta ne davis. Imas li uste nesto da tropnes,ajde veke me umori od gluposti.Kazi nesto sto dolikuva na tvoite godini, sto samo se zanesuvas, mnogu pred tebe probale, pa nisto. Daj raskazi ni povekeu ,od kade si, od kade ti e familijata, sto toa studiras??? imas li nekoja stipendija, koi ti se planovite za vo idnina, imas li nekoe zgodno momice...... aj ne drapaj se tuka so misionerski raboti. Batbayan ke pocnes nesto pa posle pustas vakvi adzamii da kefkaat ili i ti se umori???? PS me potseti za bukvata , ne odi mnogu daleku Goce, vrati se edno,sega na pamet,150-200 godini,citaj gi taka nareceniot srpski i hrvatski tekstovi ( ne crkovni) vidi go toj jazik .Rasprasaj se za kavgite okolu Vukovata reforma ,pa da prodolzime.Pa istoto vo Slovenija.....ne se slucile rabotite koi tebe sega mnogu te tangiraat samo vo tvojot dvor.
noname
quote:
j, j. #402; j , Ereja j J , "". j j . "
, . : , , Ł ! Σ . . .. , , , . , .. , , . ( , ) 19 20 .. . . [/quote] Ai pak go procitai profesorot i tvoiot pocituvan komentar i mi odgovori dali profesorot kazuva toa sto ti sakash ili neshto drugo? Moze da otgovorish samo so "da" ili "ne". Poveke diskusija i ne e potrebna. Moze da otgovorish i na toa: - dali vo Rusija zivejat rusnaci i koja oblast moze da se nareche Rusija?; - dali vo Hrvatsko zivejat hrvati i koja oblast moze da se nareche Hrvatsko?; - dali vo Francja zivejat francuzi i koja oblast moze da se nareche Francija?; - dali vo Chehija zivejat chehi i koja oblast moze da se nareche Chehija?; ..............; ..............; mislam ne e potrebno da davam oste primeri ili?
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Maleshevo sa se narichali i trakiici...i dobrudjanci...ti izobshto bil li si v severna bulgarija????
, . [img]http://www.macedonia-info.org/history/bulgarians/Bugari-Tatari.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.macedonia-info.org/history/bulgarians/Bulgarian_from_9th_century.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.macedonia-info.org/history/bulgarians/bugarka.jpg[/img] , , , , , , , . ? ( ), . [/quote] Ako minem na tema rasizam stava uste po-lesno zatoa sto nikoi vo Evropa ne lichi tolku mnogo na Mostich kolko sto lichat makedoncite - sekoi e imal moznost da vidi kako izgleda Branko Crvenkoski ili Ilinka Mitreva primer: http://clubs.dir.bg/showthreaded.php?Cat=7&Board=maked&Number=1941721760&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5 Ljubcho Georgieski i mitrpolit Stefan se isto mnogo slichni so Mostich. A ako za ten, boja na ochi ili kosa - vo koe da e selo vo Dobrudza ima poveke rusi i sineoki luge otkolko vo celo Skopie. Nai-mnogo rusokosi se razdat na sever vo Silistra i Vidin, a nai-malko vo Burgas i oste po na jug. Vo sekoi slucai dori vo Burgas ima dva pati poveke rusokosi otkolko vo cela Makedonija. Eden velik makedonistki "argument" - pomacite kazvali "svoboda", ama ne bili balgari!!!!!! Pa da, ni KOSMICHESKATA Valja Balkanska, pa ni otec Bojan Saruev ot Rodopite ne se balgari - marsianci SE!
Divider Noname, Goce, Btabayan, dosta be veke, aman. Glejte si tatarskite krasavici, oti za tri cherveni ke dojdeme i ke vi gi porusokosime i ke gi poramnime ocite. BTW, ubavi gradi na mongolskata, ups, bugarskana ubavica!!
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Noname, Goce, Btabayan, dosta be veke, aman. Glejte si tatarskite krasavici, oti za tri cherveni ke dojdeme i ke vi gi porusokosime i ke gi poramnime ocite. BTW, ubavi gradi na mongolskata, ups, bugarskana ubavica!!
Pa zoshto ne pochnete ot Ilinka Mitrevata? da si gi evropeizirate malko ot malko site sportisti, pevci, politici, popove?? ne vi e sram kako licite: http://www.org.mk/eyeballs/?gallery=bule-ana&showimage=IMG_0584.JPG http://www.org.mk/eyeballs/?gallery=karolina&showimage=KAROLINA-02.JPG http://www.org.mk/eyeballs/?gallery=sonjavelickova&showimage=SV02.JPG http://www.org.mk/eyeballs/?gallery=bule-marijanaaceski&showimage=BULE002.JPG http://www.org.mk/eyeballs/?gallery=loreanakaric&showimage=LOREANA05.JPG http://www.org.mk/models/view.asp?reden=3376 http://www.org.mk/models/view.asp?reden=1581 http://www.org.mk/models/view.asp?reden=2755 http://www.org.mk/models/view.asp?reden=1637 http://www.org.mk/models/view.asp?reden=3069 http://www.org.mk/models/view.asp?reden=158 http://www.org.mk/models/view.asp?reden=1814 oste rasizam vi treba? Povelete! BTW - sakate da porusokosite nekogo? Vie???? (ne se smejam)
Divider Yes, but of course. As we did throughout the ages, well sacrifice ourselves again and go to New tatarstan (e.g wrogly named Bulgaria) and again make your bloodline a bit purer. We'll sleep with your women and again yur ofsprings will be blonder, with fair skin and eyes, and of course have a tiny little bit of brains unlike you that have no brains.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Yes, but of course. As we did throughout the ages, well sacrifice ourselves again and go to New tatarstan (e.g wrogly named Bulgaria) and again make your bloodline a bit purer. We'll sleep with your women and again yur ofsprings will be blonder, with fair skin and eyes, and of course have a tiny little bit of brains unlike you that have no brains.
I don't know if your president and foreign minister have ever "sacrified" to anything but their OWN MONGOLIAN looklike. Not to mention the other "macedonian" faces in today's Macedonia? I believe you coud make blonder but Nelson Mandella!
Divider Genghis, look in the mirror, or look around you. My president doesn't have to bother, or my minister. There is plenty to go around.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Genghis, look in the mirror, or look around you. My president doesn't have to bother, or my minister. There is plenty to go around.
Yeaah, CHINGIS (by the way), look in THIS mirror: http://clubs.dir.bg/showthreaded.php?Cat=7&Board=maked&Number=1941721760&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5 She DOESN'T have to bother - I PERSONALLY agree and no argument here, honestly!
Divider She doesn't have slant eyes like the mongol (tatarobulgarian beauty on the previous pic). Also I never said about our women doing you all. I was talking about our men. BTW Genghis is correct in english stooopid!!
Divider Check this link dumbass, even the pigs you buy are turning gay. And as with everything else, you complain. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/17/gay_pig/ By Lester Haines Published Wednesday 17th November 2004 12:46 GMT Bulgarian farmer Galen Dobrev is claiming substantial damages from the breeder who sold him a prize-winning pedigree pig after the porker turned out to be a little more pink than the average Babe, Ananova reports. An outraged Dobrev told the court where he is sueing the breeder: "It's a disgrace, all he was interested in was other male pigs." Dobrev has deployed a range of expert witnesses - in the form of fellow farmers - and photographic evidence to prove the 220lb boar's homosexuality. He lamented that when the pig had been outed he proved impossible to sell, forcing a premature termination and conversion into sausages. For his part, the breeder claims that had Dubrov waited until the pig reached sexuality maturity, he would have come around to the delights of rubensesque sows.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
She doesn't have slant eyes like the mongol (tatarobulgarian beauty on the previous pic). Also I never said about our women doing you all. I was talking about our men. BTW Genghis is correct in english stooopid!!
Well, I agree, her eyes are not the slightest different than the eyes of the MONGOLIAN! No argument here! I guess it's a father-and-daughter photo album, isn't it? As for the girl you previously elaborated - it's a pure "macedonian" stock from Sandanski - so don't bother me with your looks, will you?
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
quote: maleshevo. Tatar, Macedonians were always "Slavs". They were called by the Romans after the ocupation of Macedonia and in the middle ages by the Greeks "Sclavini". From "Sclavin" comes "Slav". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maleshevo, speak for yourself, i am macedonian and im not slav! macedonians are descendants of the ancient macedonians. As for "Goce Delchev".. get rid of that nickname.. the forum administrator should have banned you a long time ago. How dare you use the name of the greatest macedonian hero in the past centuries, who openly stated that macedonians are not bulgarians. Go find your own "hero" like ghangis khan or somthing. Frankly i dont even know what "goce delchev" and batbayan are trying to prove? are they trying to say that bulgarians are not tatars and that they are slavs?? both slavs and tatars were stupid poor uncivilised tribes and nothing more.. i wouldnt wanna be any of them. If anything, i think that you bulgarians would have a more glorious history to speak of if you edmit to been tatars than a stinky russian tribe called "slavs", a tribe which has nothing to show for itself except for the fact that the word slave comes from slav, because in ancient times the romans took the stinky slavs as their slaves. Thats where the word slave comes from. So do you wanna be a descendant of a stinky SlavE tribe, or from a tribe which atleast had a warrior which fought and won wars, like that of ghangis khan. The same goes for the macedonians out there, like maleshevo who think they are slavs.. go kiss russia's ugly ass. I am macedonian and i am the descendant of nobody else but the macedonians!!! "Goce Delchev" one more thing... i have heard that in canada particulary, there exists macedonian organisations who are "pro-bulgarian".. who are "bulgarianized".. so that website with the bulgarian flag and so on.. it may be one of them. Go to 95% of macedonian sites and you will find that they state that macedonians are nothing but macedonian.
abte batka stiga sa obizhdaj be! nali i v tebe teche "tatarska" krv[:D]...a pa za slavjanite da ne govorime...znachi tolko ste glupavi che se obizhdate i sebe si, smotanjaci ste srpski[:D] nali velite deka makedoncite bile chisto slavjansko pleme be? ako ne sa slavjani togaa sa hunni..nema drugo kakvo da e..aaa ili sa smeshani..tolko li si prost? kolko golemi sa bulgarija i makedonija? kak mozhe da kazhesh deka e imalo etnicki granici po toa vreme? tolko ne mozhe da se dosetish che slavjanite i hunite sa smeseni i sme ot tehno poteklo...ne mozhe hunite da doagjaat do pirin planina i da vikat "ne, do tuka sme, natam sa makedonci" ha!....oti ne mogat da pojdat oshte 50 kilometra i da stignat do vardara? abte vute, hunite sa doshli chak ot zemjata na dneshen iran be! i si si mislil deka neshto gi e sprelo da pojdat oshte dva tri kilometra v dneshna makedonija kato sa stignale do sofija? mnogo ste prosti, ama mnogo![:D]ama i smeshni![;)] ps- znachi ako ste "descendants of ancient macedonians" togava ste grcki neli? [:D] ajde malaka ostavi 90% ot bulgarskoto mnozinstvo v makedonija na mira i si idi da papkash "tzatzaki" i "musaka" vo grcko!
Divider Daj be morone idi odjebi. A , pa dojde, nemate forumi u tatarstan. Pa i ja se razbira, nemate telefon, ziveete u pesteri, a jas prassuvam za internet. Odjebi Kamileee!!
goce delchev Maleshevcho napisal: [code] , , , , , , , . ? ( ), .[/code] Maleshevo (the huns) !? ! () - ( ). , ! () !! "" ""! "-" ( ) () ! !? [8D] ps- ""??
Divider Sod off, dumbass, how long should we educate you. Moron
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Daj be morone idi odjebi. A , pa dojde, nemate forumi u tatarstan. Pa i ja se razbira, nemate telefon, ziveete u pesteri, a jas prassuvam za internet. Odjebi Kamileee!!
bate, ajde ti odjebi malo! [8D] jaz ne se dzverim kako tebe, stiga si vikal! bate, ke ti kazham ushte neshto, deneshen Tatarstan e mnogo podobre ikonomiceski ot kolku vasha "makedonija"....bate nemoj si obizdaj taka pradedite si be;)
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Sod off, dumbass, how long should we educate you. Moron
bate oti ne mi otgovarash be?[8D] nemash kakvo? hehe...ma znam, nema nuzda da mi go kazvash deka nemash otgovor ajde pozdav ps- Population: The population of Tatarstan is 3,7 million, of which 48% are Tatars and 43% Russians. Only 23% of Tatars live in Tatarstan. The Tatars descends from nomadic tribes that migrated westward from southern Siberia between the 10th and the 13th centuries. The term, Tatar, refers to a people its roots from three main ethnic groups of Turkic origin. Economy: Tatarstan is economically very important region. The region produces oil, gas and has many highly developed industries for machine-building products such as heavy trucks and bombers. Its economic and strategic value is possibly the primary reason for the special position of Tatarstan within the Russian Federation. http://www.unpo.org/member.php?arg=51 ahaha 43% rusnaci...barem mozhe bulgarete da sa polovin matrioshki be[8D] ha!
Divider Bate edinzbor: TRI CHERVENI! Stiga, a!!
goce delchev , ! , , ! , ! ahahahahahaha 43% rusnaci! ouuu govoru po ruski mdaaaa...ahaha[8D][:D][:p]
Divider Cry baby, cry for the f*cked up Soviet times when you meant something by selling your shitty bulgarian perec. OK. Loose yourself in the eyes of Medusa and be stone, silent forever.
goce delchev , ... ??[:D][:p]
Divider Takvi kakvi mamati poluchuvashe zad marketa v'v Sofia za odredeni servizi na shorjorite na avtobusa. Takvi cherveni. Ili sega iskate tri evra. Teshko se namira zelezni pri nas, samo so guljami se raspravame.
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Cry baby, cry for the f*cked up Soviet times when you meant something by selling your shitty bulgarian perec. OK. Loose yourself in the eyes of Medusa and be stone, silent forever.
o hail the serbs! o hail the serbs! deck the serbs with power and glory! falalala lala la for the serbs made makedonija falala lala hail the serbs for making history (macedonian that is) falala lala hail TITO for serbinizing the bulgars in makedonija falala lala[8D][:D][:)] ovaa e edna Christmas song!
Divider It is a pitty that someone like you shares the same planet and if we shoot you greepeace and the treehuggers will complain.
goce delchev ajde sega ot takiva kavki nema nikoj polza..neka da ne se obizdame i da se pozdravime kako brakja...kato po vremeto na asparuh i kubrat..[^]
Divider Posto vie ste beda ziva as ni tekna da zememe BG pasosi za da polesno i za poeftino vi gi izlazeme majkite, zenite, kerkite i sve zensko. Biznis. Budala.
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by Divider
Posto vie ste beda ziva as ni tekna da zememe BG pasosi za da polesno i za poeftino vi gi izlazeme majkite, zenite, kerkite i sve zensko. Biznis. Budala.
ama nashte li be?? i ako sa nashte, sho ke stane so "makedonskata krv"...ke stana "tataro-turska" ahahah[:D][:D]
Great_Macedonian Divider.. so malce problemi uspeav nekako da razberam sto pisuva """"goce delchev"""" ama nikako da svatam sto saka da objasni covekot.. ocigledno nesto mu fali.. bolno umen e i mu treba psihicka pomos i nego i mnozinstvoto bugari i grci koj ni go osporuvaat nasiot makedonski identitet. Jas povejke nema sto da kazam na ovoj topik, mi se smaci vejke so povtoruvanje recenici na glupaci. Koga si imas rabota so prost covek najubavo e da se trgnis nastrana.. zasto prost covek nikogas nemoze da go razberi na popametniot.
concrete Maliov mora da e na nekoja pojaka "opijatna materija" Mu ja rasturi grupata na Batbayan, he, he !!!!
dragon Na teski tranvilajzeri, valjda. Makedonija na Makedocnite!!
goce delchev great_macedonian napisa: [code]Koga si imas rabota so prost covek najubavo e da se trgnis nastrana...zasto prost covek nikogas nemoze da go razberi na popametniot.[/code] bate! rechi mi koga si imash rabota so "izperen mozuk" sho da se pravi? jaz ne pisham gluposti a pishem istorija...ako ovaa e "prosta rabota" nema sho da prikazvame veke! jaz vi rekov i vi dokazav site moj mnenia! mora da si mnogo prost da otricash istrijata! [8D][:D] ajde pozdravi! ps- nikoj ne mi otgovori na ni eden ot mojte prashanija...zashto?
f9 Zashto si gluv bree ili slep za odgovori.I slushaj ti jang ce kjang,hoang ho i descendant of Dzingis Ciganon,daj razbudi se od San Stefanskiot son veke ednash i ne brboti na prazno.Kakvi migracii od Azija i Bliski istok tropash.Vo genetskiot kod na Makedoncite nema takvo neshto,za razlika od Vas,Turcite i Grcite.Poslednite efektivni migracii zavrshile vo Makedonija vo 4000 Gpne.Nema nikakov azijatski gennnnnnnn.Prashaj si tamu vo akademijata vasha da vidish koj ima shto.
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by f9
Zashto si gluv bree ili slep za odgovori.I slushaj ti jang ce kjang,hoang ho i descendant of Dzingis Ciganon,daj razbudi se od San Stefanskiot son veke ednash i ne brboti na prazno.Kakvi migracii od Azija i Bliski istok tropash.Vo genetskiot kod na Makedoncite nema takvo neshto,za razlika od Vas,Turcite i Grcite.Poslednite efektivni migracii zavrshile vo Makedonija vo 4000 Gpne.Nema nikakov azijatski gennnnnnnn.Prashaj si tamu vo akademijata vasha da vidish koj ima shto.
bate jaz prasham vo seka akademija ama svi isto mi kazvat! deka "makedoncite" sa bugare[8D][:D] bate sakam tebe oti si mnogo "akademicen" da te prasham, ot kade sa doshli toa narod "od migracii zavrshile vo Makedonija vo 4000 Gpne." ot kade be bate!? ne mozhe da sa cisti slavjani, ima tolku crni od vas makedonci....togava ste grcki narod? toa e bil megas alexandros. ajde so zdrave[:D]
dragon Goce, okako ne ti se sram da pisuvas gluposti?
f9 Aj klikni ovde i chitaj akademicheski-ako razberish neshto de.Ako ne ke ti pomognam -od 100% Genetski kod kaj Makedoncite 35% e od Neolitsko poteklo od doseluvanje pred 4000 g.pne i toa so markerite EU4,9 i 10.Se drugo vo genetskiot kod e od avtohtono Evropsko poteklo od Paleolitot.Nema voopshto aziski ili bliskoistochni vlijanija.Vo Genetskiot kod na Bugarite ima 8% od Azijatsko poteklo i toa ta si go pobarash kaj vas,a ne da davish na forumov. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by f9
Aj klikni ovde i chitaj akademicheski-ako razberish neshto de.Ako ne ke ti pomognam -od 100% Genetski kod kaj Makedoncite 35% e od Neolitsko poteklo od doseluvanje pred 4000 g.pne i toa so markerite EU4,9 i 10.Se drugo vo genetskiot kod e od avtohtono Evropsko poteklo od Paleolitot.Nema voopshto aziski ili bliskoistochni vlijanija.Vo Genetskiot kod na Bugarite ima 8% od Azijatsko poteklo i toa ta si go pobarash kaj vas,a ne da davish na forumov. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf
bate, dobre ste pravili izledvanija i uchene...ama zashto "bulgari" nema v toa uchene be? neli i te sa na balkana? ili vi e strah da turite "bugare" posto ke sa isto so makedoncite...ahahaha[;)]nemoj me lazhi bate, znam kakva e rabotata. ps- ot kade gi vadish tea 8%? ps- abte bate, tolku si akademichen i pak si sgreshil. velish deka nemate nishto aziatsko..epa bate ako ste svrzani s "hungarians" oni sa "magyars" be!! When the Magyar people entered the land of Europe, they seemed a part of the Turkic hordes roaming between South-Eastern Europe and Central Asia. cheti tuka http://hungarianhistory.freeservers.com/magyars.html ahahahaha![;)] bate da ti kazhem li ushte neshto, magyars sa bile related to the huns..ahahaha[;)] bate ne pravish li smetka kato pishe Poland (croatians descendants of poles), Ukraine, Hungary e vse centralna evropa, a op i makedonija uuuu toku nadole na jug chak do grcija? smeshen si! and this study does not include all of the countries in europe...i do not see bulgaria anywhere. [;)] Czech- bate ako si tolko prosti chiti vo enciklopedija, barem razberesh neshto..pishe deka Czechs are descendants of ancient Celtic, Thracian and Slavic tribes. The Thracians were an Indo-European tribe, inhabitants of Thrace, a region to the north of ancient Greece (currently southern Bulgaria, northern Greece, European Turkey and eastern FYR Macedonia). ahahahahahah [;)]ajde so zdrave...nemojte da mi kazvate deka pishem pak gluposti...ma ne sa gluposti be pile, toa go pishat izucheni hora, za vas da chetete i da se ubedite deka ste bugare[:D][:)][:p][^]
f9 Tissue Antigens Volume 60 Issue 6 Page 496 - December 2002 HLA polymorphism in Bulgarians defined by high-resolution typing methods in comparison with other populations M. Ivanova 1 , E. Rozemuller 2 , N. Tyufekchiev 3 , A. Michailova 1 , M. Tilanus 2 , E. Naumova 1 Abstract: In the present study we analyzed for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by high-resolution typing methods in the Bulgarian population. Comparisons with other populations of common historical background were performed. Most HLA-A, -B, -DRB alleles and haplotypes observed in the Bulgarian population are also common in Europe. Alleles and haplotypes considered as Mediterranean are relatively frequent in the Bulgarian population. Observation of Oriental alleles confirms the contribution of Asians to the genetic diversity of Bulgarians. The use of high-resolution typing methods allowed to identify allele variants rare for Europeans that were correlated to specific population groups. Phylogenetic and correspondence analyses showed that Bulgarians are more closely related to Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians than to other European populations and Middle Eastern people living near the Mediterranean. The HLA-A,-B,-DRB1 allele and haplotype diversity defined by high-resolution DNA methods confirm that the Bulgarian population is characterized by features of southern European anthropological type with some influence of additional ethnic groups. Implementation of high-resolution typing methods allows a significantly wider spectrum of HLA variation to be detected, including rare alleles and haplotypes, and further clarifies the origin of Bulgarians.
Batbayan
quote:
The Ilinden Uprising (Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising) of August 1903 was an organised revolt of the Bulgarians living in the Ottoman Empire prepared and carried out by the Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organisation (IMARO, predecessor to IMRO). The uprising took place in the Bitola vilayet and the northeastern part of Adrianople vilayet parts of the regions of Macedonia and Thrace. The rebellion in the Bitola vilayet was proclaimed on August 2, 1903, St. Elijah's Day (Ilinden in Bulgarian), almost two weeks ahead of schedule. The Adrianople vilayet joined the uprising on August 19, 1903, the Transfiguration (Preobrazhenie in Bulgarian). The rebellion in Macedonia affected most of the central and southwestern parts of the Bitola Vilayet receiving the support of the peasant Bulgarian and Vlach population of the region. Provisional governments were established in three localities, all of them Vlach mountain villages, viz Kruevo (near Prilep), Neveska near Florina and Klisura near Kastoria. In Kruevo the insurgents proclaimed the so called Krushevo Republic under the presidency of Bulgarian school teacher Nikola Karev. The rebellion in the Adrianople Vilayet led to the liberation of a vast area in Mount Strandzha and to the creation of a provisional government in Tsarevo (Vasiliko). Though the rebellion in both regions initially was successful, the intervention of Turkish regular army led to the dissolution of the rebels' detachments. The suppression of the uprising entailed some 15,000 victims, 70,000 homeless, over 12,000 destroyed or burnt houses and over 30,000 refugees to neighbouring Bulgaria. By the time the rebellion had started, many of its most promising potential leaders, including Goce Delev, had already been killed in skirmishes with the Ottomans, and the effort was quashed within eleven days. The survivors managed to maintain a semi-successful guerilla campaign against the Turks for the next few years, but its greater effect was that it persuaded the European powers to attempt to convince the Ottoman sultan that he must take a more concilliatory note toward his Christian subjects in Europe. This led to the Murzsteg Program, by which the various powers appointed observers in Macedonia. Though little came of this, in was a motivating factor in the ensuing Balkan Wars, which split up Macedonia between a nothern area under Serbian (and later Yugoslav) control, a southern area under Greece and a small northeastern one under Bulgaria.
Why do you stray from your father land?
concrete This led to the Murzsteg Program, by which the various powers appointed observers in Macedonia. Though little came of this, in was a motivating factor in the ensuing Balkan Wars, which split up Macedonia between a nothern area under Serbian (and later Yugoslav) control, a southern area under Greece and a small northeastern one under Bulgaria. Samo leka poleka, 1946 si ja vrativme drzavata na delot sto go dobi ( citaj okupira) Srbija.Ako ne se lazam Bugarija planira vo EU za dve tri godini??? E pa planirajte si za edno 10 godini da si nema granici ni prema Pirinskiot del ni prema Egejskiot. Da sme zivi i zdravi pa togas Batbayan da si go prodlozime muabetov na "Evropsko nivo" pa da vidime ima ili nema makedonci.Vaka mozeme do sto i edna da se raspravame. I sega istite the various powers zaedno so nivnite puleni :Srbija, Bugarija , Grcija i Albanija gledam vrtat poker od noga,ama nie sme prosle niz taa sema dva tri pati , zilavi sme si, sto da vi pravam. I bas mi e drago sto se javi , daj interveniraj,kaj ona deteto so ambiciozno ime Goce da se sredi malku, mnogu e nekako nevospitano, ne mu lici na eden iden Evropeec.
Gjoko Eve Vi ushte eden post od nekoj si poucheni od Vas predpostavuvam iako ne se "Arievci" : "Your some historians,who are trying to distorting the historical facts,have always brought forward many uncorfirmed assumptions up to this day so that Bulgars would not be of Turkic origin..But They have always failed to fail it ... Let alone not proving their own so called and unscientific theory that is Bulgars are of Indo-European origin.. the word Bulgar has no Iranian etimology..Bulgar is a Turkic word.. the second thing is the suffixe IA in the word HAZARIA doesnt mean ARYAN.. IA is of Latin origin ,meaning land ,country,homeland.. for example,,ROMAN+IA = where Romans live... BULGAR+IA means where Bulgars live ..It has nothing to do with Aryan at all.. I am sending the conversation between a Turkish and Bulgar academician .. u can reach the article regarding this conversation via this adress members.boardhost.com/Bul...13831.html Dear Colleagues, Last week a group of Bulgarian administrative-professors signed a (kind of) memorandum to protest us (Yeni Turkiye Publication and Research Center) of listing Danube and Volga Bulgars in the topic plan of our project `Turk', an international and transnational history project aiming at preparing a general history of Turks from the very ancient times up to the current developments. That protest was published by BTA (Bulgarian Telegraph Agency) in news bulletin. Our reply to the agency and to our colleagues is below: To BTA, Bulgarian Telegraph Agency, Sofia, We received a copy of your news dated July 25, 2001, concerning our publication project (The Project `Turk'). First of all, we have not yet received any letter from Bulgarian scholars, which they refer to. Perhaps it is due nowadays to reach us. Thus, we preferred to address you, since we cannot tell anything to those scholars signing that letter before receiving their appeal. Let them be sure that we will kindly respond them. Secondly, we do not understand what is meant by "the attempts to identify the Bulgarians of Volga Bulgaria as a Turkish or Turkic people and to present them and Danube Bulgaria as part of the Turkish/Turkic world..." The meaning is obvious, but we, even Turks at all, cannot be addressed in this issue. Our colleagues should know well that among Turkish historians nobody, except Osman Karatay, our project coordinator, has worked particularly on Proto-Bulgarian history. Even Prof. A. N. Kurat, one of the pioneering researchers of Eastern European historiography, disregarded Danubian (Proto) Bulgars in his very detailed and scholarly works about the Turks of Eastern Europe. So, we are of the opinion that what is meant by the above phrase on Bulgars is not the original view of Yeni Turkiye, but is the opinion of eminent historians of Bulgaria like Zlatarski and Beshevliev, and other very well-known and respectable scholars like Moravcsik, Marquart, Smirnov, Baskakov, Feher, Dvornik, Halperin, Czegledy, Obolensky, Vernadsky, Ostrogorsky, Dabrowski, Rasony, Menges, Runciman, Rona-Tas, Zimonyi, and others. Moreover, even Prof. Hristo Hristov, about whom nobody can say that he likes Turks a little bit, writes that Proto-Bulgarians were obviously `a Turkic tribe'. Our Bulgarian colleagues think that here is a crime of making (Proto) Bulgarians Turk, but we do not understand why they choose us to be scapegoats. They should discuss the problem with before-mentioned names, who made and make use of primary sources in their researches, and cannot be accused of acting with `pro-Turk' sentiments. You may disregard Medieval Islamic sources clearly defining Bulgars as one of Turkish tribes, but not European, primarily Byzantine and Russian ones, about which our colleagues are certainly well informed. In addition to those primary sources, there are inscriptions from both Danubian and Volga areas. They were read letter by letter, and it was proven that they both were exactly same languages, with some unimportant sound differences, which is very normal since there is a time interval of half a millennium between writing times of the Danubian and Volga inscriptions. Furthermore, we have today Chuvash language, directly successor of Bulgaro-Oghur language. All these are Turkic, as Turkic of Turkey. That is, there are hundreds of documents clearly indicating identity of (Proto) Bulgars, but there is no sound evidence pointing to any possibility of their non-Turkish origin. If our colleagues say "They, Proto-Bulgarians must be non-Turkish, because we want so", then we respect them. Because we personally believe in democracy and post-modernism, warranting freedom of expression of belief and ideas for everybody. But we will continue to stand for science. All these are European values, as our colleagues believe. We are of the opinion that there are attempts by some Bulgarian colleagues to show Bulgars as not Turkic. Their results are publicly known. And we think that our Bulgarian colleagues should collect signs to warn their co-nationals not to write so unscientific and baseless things. Bulgaria have certainly had very great names in all sciences; this tradition should be kept, and should not be victimized to political accounts. And we want to express our stance and idea that history is itself an important science, and should not be injured by having submitted to politicians and social engineers. Our colleagues speak of `racial' position of our project with no proof, but they obviously show their stand for Indo-Iranian racism. We are accused of considering a 4000 years long history into account by our Bulgarian colleagues, who, in their accusation letter, base their thesis on 5000 or more years of the so-called Indo-Iranian entity. They say that Medieval Bulgar civilization was a piece and product of the settled, and not nomads, but do not know or regard that among Eurasian nomads there were a lot of Iranic communities; and they fail to explain how they did come to the Balkans if they were not nomads. We want to refer to a question by a Canadian deputy of the mid-19th century about the famous Indian chief: "How did he pass our border if he is Sitting Bull, and how can we call him Sitting Bull if he passed the border by walking?" As for the so-called conference in Istanbul, we should confess that we heard it first time by your news relying on the letter of the seven Bulgarian scholars. We will organize a reception in Istanbul to promote and evaluate our project, but, when we complete the project. All our contributors know well about our time plan according to which the Turkish edition will be published within January/February, 2002, and the English one within May/June, 2002. That is, the date is uncertain, and we did not send any invitation to anybody. As for the invited 26 Bulgarians, our Bulgarian colleagues seem to have misinformed. Among a few names mentioned in the news, there are some whom we do not know at all, and some whom we missed to invite to the project. We will immediately invite them to contribute to the project. Please note that people have not been chosen according to some criteria; we invite everybody available for us. We found names and contacts of 86 Bulgarian and Turk historians from Bulgaria, and want to reach to more people. It is an honor for us to extend our invitation to the seven colleagues and to people that they may refer. As for their regression that we do send official call to certain institutions in Bulgaria, it is due to our very difficult situation: There is no any database listing all institutions and names studying in areas related to Turkish history, language and culture. We have had to find them one by one, and it is normal to miss some of them, which is not necessarily to be considered a deliberate act. We want to remind that we have names and contributors from Argentina and New Zealand. Last but not the least, Prof. Omeljan Pritsak is undoubtedly one of those at the paramount of Eurasian historiography. His studies are available everywhere and concerning people know very well what he thinks on this issue. Prof. Pritsak honored us by sending his very valuable and wide essay titled "The Turkic nomads of Southeastern Europe", of which the first part is devoted to Huns and Bulgarians, respectively. This is all for your information. We wish all the best for you and BTA in general, Cordially, Osman KARATAY Prof. Kemal ???EK Coordinator of the Project `Turk' Academic Consultant
noname
quote:
Originally posted by f9
KAKOV NACI KAKOV MACI! MAKEDONIJA SHTO NEMA AZIJATSKI GEN E POSIROMASHNA VO ODBRANA I PRILAGODIVOST. Toa sekoj genetichar go znae.No shto tebe ti e celta,ne znam-nitu me interesira.Jas dadov podatok deka vo Bugarija ima znachitelen procent na Azijski geni i toa od protobugarsko poteklo.I toj procent e fiksiran od Bugarski nauchnici na 4.9%.Takov gen nema vo Makedonija. Mislata mi beshe deka deneshnite Bugari mozhat da si go zemat pravoto i ponataka da se narekuvaat Bugari,bazirano na nivnoto chustvo na bezvrednost ako bi se klasificirale za toa shto genetski se.I toa e pravo na zhitelite na Bugarija da se opredelat.Takvo isto pravo imaat i zhitelite na Makedonija.I toa e toa nivno pravo .Zatoa shto e nivno pravo i toa lichno i neprikosnoveno sekoja diskusija za ogranichuvanje na toa pravo e protiv povelbata na obedinetite nacii za osnovni chovechki prava i zatoa moderatorite mesto da dozvolat vakva diskusija da se odolgovlechi na 20 veb strani i toa vo lichno i grupno krshenje na tie prava,neka se razbudat od sonot na Branko i ovaa tema zaradi gorenavedenite prichini ja zatvorat.
Znachi vo shvedi (4%) i francuzi ima aziatski geni, no kai makedoncite nema ni EDEN alelle?: "The frequency of the Al (Arg) allele showed highly significant variations ranging from 4% in Caucasians (Swedes) to 50% in Chinese. Compared to Caucasians, a relatively high frequency was found in African Blacks (29%) and Indians (16%). Furthermore, Finns and Mordvinians also had higher frequencies (9-10%) than west Europeans (French and Swedes), consistent with an Asiatic Mongoloid influence known to exist in Finno-Ugrian tribes. The geographic allele frequency patterns of p53 and its effector protein p21 were quite different. The p21 A1 mutations in African, Asiatic and European populations were identical at the DNA level. The geographical distribution of the A1 allele suggests an independent origin in Africa and Asia." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8860009 veruvaash? moze odgovor i samo so "da" ili "ne". poveke i ne e potreben!
Batbayan Concrete, go here: www.google.com search for: Kuber You will find that the land of present day Macedonia had been settled by Bulgarians before 680AD. Where is this magical transformation? How did the native Macedonian population(Bulgarians) morph from Bulgarian to ancient Macedonian in the past 10 years? Explain to me; where was Macedonia 10 years ago? 100 years ago? 200 years ago? 500 years ago? 1000 years ago?
concrete Where is this magical transformation? How did the native Macedonian population(Bulgarians) morph from Bulgarian to ancient Macedonian in the past 10 years? Kakva magicna transformacija????Pa ne sum barem jas od vcera,mene da mi raskazuvas za transformacii. Veke rekov:Samo leka poleka,Batbayan, ne se zesti, se ke si dojde na mesto. I nemoj da me razocaruvas kako maliot Goce,koj samo kefka naokolu,na nego raskazuvaj mu za bugarskata populacija vo Makedonija. Ako ne ja gledas Makedonija so makedoncite, sto se veli "oci isteruvaat" 10,100,200,500,1000.....2500 godini nanazad,navistina ne mozam da pomognam,problemot si e togas vo drugi sferi.
f9 Observation of Oriental alleles confirms the contribution of Asians to the genetic diversity of Bulgarians
noname
quote:
Originally posted by f9
Observation of Oriental alleles confirms the contribution of Asians to the genetic diversity of Bulgarians
as is the case with almost any other European nation nowadays, btw.
f9 as is the case with almost any other European nation nowadays, btw. almost ? Get lost man.-? Find for yourself,it is enough that others have been proved to you that historic connection with Bulgars have so little but you stick on your fog to be your base.And in total your fog is 8 %, of them on Bulgars are 4.9%.No asiatic gen have been identyfied in dosens of Macedonian genetic researches up to today. You can rightfully have your name Bulgarian,based that these 4.9% of population are worth little bit more then rest of blind Macedonians and Tracians today in "Bulgaria".
noname
quote:
Originally posted by f9 [Find for yourself,it is enough that others have been proved to you that historic connection with Bulgars have so little but you stick on your fog to be your base.And in total your fog is 8 %, of them on Bulgars are 4.9%.No asiatic gen have been identyfied in dosens of Macedonian genetic researches up to today.
Can you try another language - nothing understandable above......also absolutely not clear what and how were calculated the figures 8% or 4.9%????????????????????????????????????????????????????? However let's look closely, asiatic and even african gennes with Europeans: "The frequency of the Al (Arg) allele showed highly significant variations ranging from 4% in Caucasians (Swedes) to 50% in Chinese. Compared to Caucasians, a relatively high frequency was found in African Blacks (29%) and Indians (16%). Furthermore, Finns and Mordvinians also had higher frequencies (9-10%) than west Europeans (French and Swedes), consistent with an Asiatic Mongoloid influence known to exist in Finno-Ugrian tribes. The geographic allele frequency patterns of p53 and its effector protein p21 were quite different. The p21 A1 mutations in African, Asiatic and European populations were identical at the DNA level. The geographical distribution of the A1 allele suggests an independent origin in Africa and Asia." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8860009 of course the Macedonians are PURE from such a stuff, no matter how Macedonian politicians, sportists, singers, scientists and others look like............ another asiatic alleles here: "The known mutation at position 282 was strongly associated with the 590A mutation. The 481T, 590A, and 857A mutations accounted for virtually all of the slow acetylator alleles in Asian and white populations. The 857A mutation proved to be an Asiatic allele....." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8460648 of course the Macedonians are PURE from such a stuff, no matter how Macedonian politicians, sportists, singers, scientists and others look like............ "The relatively high TF*C3 frequencies found in northeastern Sweden (13%) and in central Sweden (9%) are most likely due to eastern influence. Unlike other genetic markers of eastern influence (e.g. TF*DCHI), which are of Asiatic Mongoloid origin, TF*C3 appears to originate from Finno-Ugric populations...." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2083947 of course the Macedonians are PURE from such a stuff, no matter how Macedonian politicians, sportists, singers, scientists and others look like............ enough with racistic bullshits or you need more NAZI evidence?
goce delchev
quote:
Originally posted by f9
as is the case with almost any other European nation nowadays, btw. almost ? Get lost man.-? Find for yourself,it is enough that others have been proved to you that historic connection with Bulgars have so little but you stick on your fog to be your base.And in total your fog is 8 %, of them on Bulgars are 4.9%.No asiatic gen have been identyfied in dosens of Macedonian genetic researches up to today. You can rightfully have your name Bulgarian,based that these 4.9% of population are worth little bit more then rest of blind Macedonians and Tracians today in "Bulgaria". __________________________________________ F9 luve! ti otkacen li si?? cetesh li toa shto go pishesh...ti mi dade taa tema za etniceski nesta. i toa website http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf kazav ti go veke...ama sigurno ne znas da cetesh. eto ti go pak otgovora mi ------------------------------ ps- abte bate, tolku si akademichen i pak si sgreshil. velish deka nemate nishto aziatsko..epa bate ako ste svrzani s "hungarians" (taka pishe na websita) oni sa "magyars" be!! When the Magyar people entered the land of Europe, they seemed a part of the Turkic hordes roaming between South-Eastern Europe and Central Asia. cheti tuka http://hungarianhistory.freeservers.com/magyars.html ahahahaha! bate da ti kazhem li ushte neshto, magyars sa bile related to the huns..ahahaha ajde sega! ti ne pravish li smetka kato pishe Poland (croatians descendants of poles), Ukraine, Hungary e vse centralna evropa, a op i makedonija uuuu toku nadole na jug chak do grcija? smeshen si! and this study does not include all of the countries in europe...i do not see bulgaria anywhere. Czech background- bate ako si tolko prosti cheti vo enciklopedija, barem razberesh neshto..pishe deka Czechs are descendants of ancient Celtic, Thracian and Slavic tribes. The Thracians were an Indo-European tribe, inhabitants of Thrace, a region to the north of ancient Greece (currently southern Bulgaria, northern Greece, European Turkey and eastern FYR Macedonia).
oti se tolko sramite ot minaloto si be? golemi ste evropejci..chisti shvejcarci ste! zatoa imate problemi s svaka drzava okolo vas. kako svi da sa gresni a vie da ste pravi?? ahahah sanuvate si razni iljuzii ajde so zdrave molim te ne si izsmilaj istorija...smesen si
concrete Pa da ti kazam pravo za takvite kako tebe i Evropejci i Svajcarci na kvadrat. Za kulturnite i vospitani graganji na Bugarija nemam zbor, tie si se luge na mesto i zali boze sto 50 godini gi tolcea razni bitangi.Se nadevam deka sega ke se pokazat. Samo sto po malku nedokvakani gocevci i se ke bide vo red.
Gjoko Prodolzuva covekov i vika: "This view regarding Proto-Bulgars is not belonging to mine.. It is accepted by all the world....If you really want me to recommend you a book in regard to the history and the languages of Proto-Bulgars I can recommend u the articles by OMELJAN PRITSAK ,who is one of those at paramount of Eastern studies,and his books .... Omeljan Pritsak and Talat Tekin are admitted to be the foremost experts on Bulgar History and Bulgar languages in our present-time ... Omeljan Pritsak ,who is the professor at the university of HARWARD ,has a book published on Bulgaric inscriptions in German language ... Your some Bulgar scholars know very well that Bulgars are of Turkic origin ..The main reason ,which lies at the bottom of the fact that Bulgars are of Turkic origin is not admitted by your some academicians is politic... go to the state university of Sofia and find prof.TZVETKOV ..and ask him whether Proto-Bulgars are of Turkic origin ..."
f9 KAKOV NACI KAKOV MACI! MAKEDONIJA SHTO NEMA AZIJATSKI GEN E POSIROMASHNA VO ODBRANA I PRILAGODIVOST. Toa sekoj genetichar go znae.No shto tebe ti e celta,ne znam-nitu me interesira.Jas dadov podatok deka vo Bugarija ima znachitelen procent na Azijski geni i toa od protobugarsko poteklo.I toj procent e fiksiran od Bugarski nauchnici na 4.9%.Takov gen nema vo Makedonija. Mislata mi beshe deka deneshnite Bugari mozhat da si go zemat pravoto i ponataka da se narekuvaat Bugari,bazirano na nivnoto chustvo na bezvrednost ako bi se klasificirale za toa shto genetski se.I toa e pravo na zhitelite na Bugarija da se opredelat.Takvo isto pravo imaat i zhitelite na Makedonija.I toa e toa nivno pravo .Zatoa shto e nivno pravo i toa lichno i neprikosnoveno sekoja diskusija za ogranichuvanje na toa pravo e protiv povelbata na obedinetite nacii za osnovni chovechki prava i zatoa moderatorite mesto da dozvolat vakva diskusija da se odolgovlechi na 20 veb strani i toa vo lichno i grupno krshenje na tie prava,neka se razbudat od sonot na Branko i ovaa tema zaradi gorenavedenite prichini ja zatvorat.
concrete Zosto be F9 da ja zatvorat temata,pusti gi neka se dokazuvaat, zabavni se, daj ne se zezaj.
XAH_KPYM
quote:
Originally posted by highlander
. [img]http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2003/beauties/bulgaria1.jpg[/img] Miss Bulgaria 2004 [img]http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2003/contestants/bulgaria1.jpg[/img]
Divider Nice looking tatarian or mongolian girl, where did you find her? www.tatarstangirls.com or... Nice try tatarlar, failed though!!
noname
quote:
Originally posted by f9
KAKOV NACI KAKOV MACI! MAKEDONIJA SHTO NEMA AZIJATSKI GEN E POSIROMASHNA VO ODBRANA I PRILAGODIVOST. Toa sekoj genetichar go znae.No shto tebe ti e celta,ne znam-nitu me interesira.Jas dadov podatok deka vo Bugarija ima znachitelen procent na Azijski geni i toa od protobugarsko poteklo.I toj procent e fiksiran od Bugarski nauchnici na 4.9%.Takov gen nema vo Makedonija. Mislata mi beshe deka deneshnite Bugari mozhat da si go zemat pravoto i ponataka da se narekuvaat Bugari,bazirano na nivnoto chustvo na bezvrednost ako bi se klasificirale za toa shto genetski se.I toa e pravo na zhitelite na Bugarija da se opredelat.Takvo isto pravo imaat i zhitelite na Makedonija.I toa e toa nivno pravo .Zatoa shto e nivno pravo i toa lichno i neprikosnoveno sekoja diskusija za ogranichuvanje na toa pravo e protiv povelbata na obedinetite nacii za osnovni chovechki prava i zatoa moderatorite mesto da dozvolat vakva diskusija da se odolgovlechi na 20 veb strani i toa vo lichno i grupno krshenje na tie prava,neka se razbudat od sonot na Branko i ovaa tema zaradi gorenavedenite prichini ja zatvorat.
Eve sto znachi NACI: "...deneshnite Bugari mozhat da si go zemat pravoto i ponataka da se narekuvaat Bugari,BAZIRANO na nivnoto chustvo na bezvrednost ako bi se klasificirale za toa shto GENETSKI se...." sega razbra? ili uste ne ti e bash jasno? A eve sto e laga: "Jas dadov podatok deka vo Bugarija ima znachitelen procent na Azijski geni i toa od protobugarsko poteklo.I toj procent e fiksiran od Bugarski nauchnici na 4.9%.Takov gen nema vo Makedonija." ako ne veruvaash - procheti pak uste eden pat za da vidish kade nauchici govorat takov broi - 4,9%???????????????????? i eve sto e bezmisleno:" znachitelen procent na Azijski geni ....I toj procent e fiksiran od Bugarski nauchnici na 4.9%" razbra?
Snake Bite Batbayan Imam samo edno prashanje do vas bugarite:Kakov kar ke imash ti ako sum jas bugarin?
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Snake Bite
Batbayan Imam samo edno prashanje do vas bugarite:Kakov kar ke imash ti ako sum jas bugarin?
Interesno prasanje so mnogo lesen otgovor - (dobro e deka znaeme malko turski jazik posto ovoi zbor "kar" e karakteristichen za Anadolluka). Otgovorot e deka ne stanuva zbor za nekakva pecalba ili polza tuku toa bi bilo chista zaguba vo poveke smisli. Sosema drugo e prasanjeto kakva polza imat nekoi luge koi sto so nekakva cel ili namera sakat da go promenat minatoto ama so deneshna data i vo imeto na deneshni interesi. I ne deka toa ne se slucuvalo drugade i drugi pati. Slucuvalo se. Posebno vo Iztochna Evropa. Sudba. Ponekogash uspeshno. Fala bogu poveketo pati neuspeshno. Ta da povtorime - ne e motiv pecalba ili zaguba tuku dokolko e opravdano da se modificiraat (ama mnogo meko kazano) nekoi neshta, bideiki ovie neshta se vazni so toa sto se bili, a ne so toa sto NE se bili. Nisto drugo ne e vazno. Nai-malko e vazno koi denes kakov e i zashto e takov. Prosto trebva da zapazime toa sto e bilo predi nas chisto kako informacija! Ako mozeme.
Snake Bite
quote:
Originally posted by noname
quote:
Originally posted by Snake Bite
Batbayan Imam samo edno prashanje do vas bugarite:Kakov kar ke imash ti ako sum jas bugarin?
Interesno prasanje so mnogo lesen otgovor - (dobro e deka znaeme malko turski jazik posto ovoi zbor "kar" e karakteristichen za Anadolluka). Otgovorot e deka ne stanuva zbor za nekakva pecalba ili polza tuku toa bi bilo chista zaguba vo poveke smisli. Sosema drugo e prasanjeto kakva polza imat nekoi luge koi sto so nekakva cel ili namera sakat da go promenat minatoto ama so deneshna data i vo imeto na deneshni interesi. I ne deka toa ne se slucuvalo drugade i drugi pati. Slucuvalo se. Posebno vo Iztochna Evropa. Sudba. Ponekogash uspeshno. Fala bogu poveketo pati neuspeshno. Ta da povtorime - ne e motiv pecalba ili zaguba tuku dokolko e opravdano da se modificiraat (ama mnogo meko kazano) nekoi neshta, bideiki ovie neshta se vazni so toa sto se bili, a ne so toa sto NE se bili. Nisto drugo ne e vazno. Nai-malko e vazno koi denes kakov e i zashto e takov. Prosto trebva da zapazime toa sto e bilo predi nas chisto kako informacija! Ako mozeme.
noname izvini sto si se pomacil da me razberesh,primedbata e prifatena za turcizmite vo mak.jazik,samo prshanjeto beshe za Batbayan(ili opshto do bugarite na forumov),ili mozebi ti se custvuvash bugarin pa mi odgovarash?[;)] Btw,dali obelezanite so crveno se makaedonski zborovi ili bugarski? Jas bi gi zamenil so:"na drugi mesta i vo minatoto","Se slucuvalo","mnogu","bile","bile","Najmalku" i "pred".
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Snake Bite
quote:
Originally posted by noname
quote:
Originally posted by Snake Bite
Batbayan Imam samo edno prashanje do vas bugarite:Kakov kar ke imash ti ako sum jas bugarin?
Interesno prasanje so mnogo lesen otgovor - (dobro e deka znaeme malko turski jazik posto ovoi zbor "kar" e karakteristichen za Anadolluka). Otgovorot e deka ne stanuva zbor za nekakva pecalba ili polza tuku toa bi bilo chista zaguba vo poveke smisli. Sosema drugo e prasanjeto kakva polza imat nekoi luge koi sto so nekakva cel ili namera sakat da go promenat minatoto ama so deneshna data i vo imeto na deneshni interesi. I ne deka toa ne se slucuvalo drugade i drugi pati. Slucuvalo se. Posebno vo Iztochna Evropa. Sudba. Ponekogash uspeshno. Fala bogu poveketo pati neuspeshno. Ta da povtorime - ne e motiv pecalba ili zaguba tuku dokolko e opravdano da se modificiraat (ama mnogo meko kazano) nekoi neshta, bideiki ovie neshta se vazni so toa sto se bili, a ne so toa sto NE se bili. Nisto drugo ne e vazno. Nai-malko e vazno koi denes kakov e i zashto e takov. Prosto trebva da zapazime toa sto e bilo predi nas chisto kako informacija! Ako mozeme.
noname izvini sto si se pomacil da me razberesh,primedbata e prifatena za turcizmite vo mak.jazik,samo prshanjeto beshe za Batbayan(ili opshto do bugarite na forumov),ili mozebi ti se custvuvash bugarin pa mi odgovarash?[;)] Btw,dali obelezanite so crveno se makaedonski zborovi ili bugarski? Jas bi gi zamenil so:"na drugi mesta i vo minatoto","Se slucuvalo","mnogu","bile","bile","Najmalku" i "pred".
Jas ne se cuvstvuvam koga se raboti za nac. pripadnost. Toa ne e prasanje na cuvstva. Jas sum balgarin, a inaku se cuvstvuvam veke star, malko bolen, cuvstvuvam ljobov kon bliskite mi i dr. neshta. A dali "mnogo" i "mnogU", "Gospod" i "GospoT" se zborovi ot razlichni jazici - za mene e premnogo glupavo da komentiram....
Gjoko Veke rekov deka ne sum istoricar megjuta stvarno nemozam da gi razberam bugarive, bulgarive,bgarive, vulgarive sto baraat.Stvrno se veke dosadni i vulgarni da ne recam bulgarni. Doshle na forumov i ne ubeduvaat shto sme nie Makedoncite??? toa e seushte chinam vlijanie od rezimot na Todor Zivkov. Tie po navika,po dnevna potreba se menuvale,de Huni,de Turci de Sloveni, ajde sega pak bile i so Arievsko poteklo. Vo princip nemam nishto protiv neka bidat shto sakaat toa e nivno pravo ama neka dozvolat sekoj da si kaze sto e. Eve jas sum Makedonec, mojata baba beshe rodena 1893 i taa nikogash ne spomnala deka e neshto drugo sem Makedonka(na nejzinata baba imeto i bilo Makedonka), da, bile kako shto ona vikashe pod "Bugarsko" pa Vulgarive im go smenile prezimeto, pa bile pod "Srpsko" pa pak im go smenile prezimeto. Koga sme veke kaj menuvanjeto na prezimeto Bugarite taka stanuvale etnicki cisti "sichki B'lgari" tie duri svoite potomci Turcite vo Bugarija vo 1985 godina gi teraa da si go menuvaat prezimeto Bugarsko demek Slovensko, za da bidat site Sloveni odnosno Bugari. eve eden isechok od toa vreme: "..Godina 1985, 23 Yanuary. Nyakade v Silistrensko. Edna sutrin se sabujdash i razbirash che nyama uchilishte. No vmesto da se radvash se strahuvash. Vunka si imash snega i vsyaka obstanovka za igri no ne ti e pozvoleno. Seloto obkrujeno ot chetiri strani sus tankove. Voynici s kartechnici trupat po patishtata. Selskiya milicioner hodi ot kushta na kushta da razpravya za polojenieto. Trybva vika da smenite imenata "dobrovolno" i nyama da prikazvate na Turski poveche. Zabraneno, globa ima. Nyama rabota, nyama uchilshte do kato vsichki smenyat imenata. Edin den, dva dena, tri. Vseki den kmeta ili milicionera na vratata. Chuvash che biyat muje v karakola. Nyakolko sa izcheznali bezizsledno. Strah, beznadejnost...Radio svobodna Evropa, Deutche Velle, glasut na Amerika i da slushash nishto nyama da se meni...Neyse razbirase na kraya sus 100 zora podpisvash "dobrovolno" che tukmo si spomnil che si iskal da si smenish imeto i teya dobri horaca sa ti doshli na pomosht. I si spomnyash ta dori dyadoto na tvoya dyado iskashe tuy ama se sramuvashe. Zatova tiya dobri hora ti pomagat da go smenish i nego. Te dori ti pomagat da izkopaesh grobnite kamuni id slojish novi s novi imena. Sega si mnogo shtastliv zashto i pradyado ti spi spokoyno v groba si. I mejdu drugoto ti e omruznalo ot toya Turski che nikak ne ti se govori. Na vsyaka Turska duma ti si iska da darish na milicinera po 5 leva che si ima i toy cheda da gleda, ne sam niy nali!? Taka ili inache sega imash nov jivot, vuzrodil se vse pak. No na tebe si e vse neshto taka tejko. Minavat godini i vse po milno ti idva zagubenoto ime, ezikut che si go govorish na sun i sus sebesi. Nay posle ti idva edin shans da se otturvesh ot tozi pozor i kvo mislish stava. Vsichko jivo byaga tam nakudeto si mislish che shte si spasish chestta. A za nas, niy nyamahme shansa da donesem koeto iskame. Byahme ot purvite da otidat. 24 chasen srok ni beshe daden ot miliciyata (nali e super vakanciya, trevojat se dobrite hora da ne izpusnem toya vlaka, razbirash li, vse ot dobro), edin kufar za chovek i 500 dolara na glava. Otidohme v Ruze v JP garata. Ne znaehme kude shte potegli vlaka. Vcherashniya vlak beshe otishal v Avstriya. A nashiyat na kude ne znaem. Kachihme se v polunosht. Posoka neznayna. Sutrinta okolo 10 chasa pristignahme surpriz v Edirne. No pravilno e che mnogo hora(~30%) se vurnaha nazad, posle. Ti si reshavay kakvo bi napravil edin Bulgarin ako beshe v sushtoto sustoyanie (v toya sluchay jivuesht v Turciya). Shteshe li da si stoi v kushtata ili shteshe da otide v mayka si Bulgaria.." Mnogu lesno zaboravate koi ste i koi ste bile. Ve gledam na kartite kako ste se dvizele od Asija pa se do deneshnava Bugarija i stalno ste bile vo nekoi sojuzi so pleminja ili drzavi za da osvojuvate tugji teritorii da brkate luge od svoi ognishta. Pogledajte na kartite Makedonija odsegogash bila i ke bide tamu Kade shto e.
Gjoko Mislam deka ovoj del e posebno dobar i interesen za Bugarive: "...I am sure of one thing about u(bulgarian) ,,It is you will never accept whatever I exhibit in regard to the origin of Bulgars ..U are approaching to the Turkic theory admitted with regard to the origin of Bulgars in a negative way... The people in what is today Bulgaria are a nation with slavic language...so U can be proud of being anyone od slavic origin and ..it is your right.... Neither me and nor other scholars including Turkish ones claim that the present-day Bulgars are of Turkish origin.. U are free on thinking of how U want .. but U can not pretented the historical facts about Proto-Bulgars not to see..All of the evidences founded regarding your forefathers so far indicate in together that Bulgars are of Turkic origin.. The underlying cause behind the Turkic theory that is not wanted by some Bulgaric scholars is a feeling of antagonism against Turks emerging from historical reasons.. ..Your These scholars in question have always failed to prove their so called Iranic theory ..... The fact that Bulgars are of Turkic origin is accepted by all the world academician circle,counting Sismanov,Pulleyblank and Doerfer ,about whom Nobody can say that He likes Turks a little bit ... I just want u to get rid of the negative judgement about Turks emerging from Historical reasons.. U can dislike Turks but U have to admit the historical facts ... Dont argue upon this topic if you have never read any book about the history of Bulgars and the languages of Bulgars up to this day... I can give e-mail adress of one ,who is a scholar about the history of Bulgars ...U can ask him everything u are wondering about the Turkic theory [email protected] the last thing is that There are two ethynomis on the word Bulgar .. t is said that the word BULGAR comes from the verb BULGA(to mixture>>the combination of Uturgur and and Kuturgur Turkic tribes ))) and t is said that Bulgar comes from Bolgar ( troublemaker in Turkic).. bye for now.." Bye od nego.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Gjoko
Mislam deka ovoj del e posebno dobar i interesen za Bugarive: "...I am sure of one thing about u(bulgarian) ,,It is you will never accept whatever I exhibit in regard to the origin of Bulgars ..U are approaching to the Turkic theory admitted with regard to the origin of Bulgars in a negative way... The people in what is today Bulgaria are a nation with slavic language...so U can be proud of being anyone od slavic origin and ..it is your right.... Neither me and nor other scholars including Turkish ones claim that the present-day Bulgars are of Turkish origin.. U are free on thinking of how U want .. but U can not pretented the historical facts about Proto-Bulgars not to see..All of the evidences founded regarding your forefathers so far indicate in together that Bulgars are of Turkic origin.. The underlying cause behind the Turkic theory that is not wanted by some Bulgaric scholars is a feeling of antagonism against Turks emerging from historical reasons.. ..Your These scholars in question have always failed to prove their so called Iranic theory ..... The fact that Bulgars are of Turkic origin is accepted by all the world academician circle,counting Sismanov,Pulleyblank and Doerfer ,about whom Nobody can say that He likes Turks a little bit ... I just want u to get rid of the negative judgement about Turks emerging from Historical reasons.. U can dislike Turks but U have to admit the historical facts ... Dont argue upon this topic if you have never read any book about the history of Bulgars and the languages of Bulgars up to this day... I can give e-mail adress of one ,who is a scholar about the history of Bulgars ...U can ask him everything u are wondering about the Turkic theory [email protected] the last thing is that There are two ethynomis on the word Bulgar .. t is said that the word BULGAR comes from the verb BULGA(to mixture>>the combination of Uturgur and and Kuturgur Turkic tribes ))) and t is said that Bulgar comes from Bolgar ( troublemaker in Turkic).. bye for now.." Bye od nego.
And your point is? Who the fuck cares who and what were those protobulgarians? Bulgarians have only inherited their name and statehood. Ethnically they were present in today's MAcedonia and Dobrudja ONLY. And for a short period.. So what is your point?
bitushanec Ova e replika na TATAROT NONAME! BITOLSKATA PLOCHA E FALSIFIKAT, ISTO KAKO I VODENSKATA. ZAREM TREBA I BOJIDAR DIMITROV OD SOFIA USHTE EDNASH DA VI KAZHE NA TIE DEBELOBUGARSKITE GLAVI DEKA BITOLSKATA PLOCHA E FALSIFIKAT???????? A BUGARI VO MAKEDONIJA NEMA, NIT KE IMA.....
Chernorizec
quote:
BITOLSKATA PLOCHA E FALSIFIKAT.. ZAREM TREBA I BOJIDAR DIMITROV OD SOFIA USHTE EDNASH DA VI KAZHE
ha ha ha [8D] Za zalene si. Bitolskata plocha NE E falsifikat. Bozidar Dimitrov nikogash ne e kazval deka e falsifikat. Mnogu mechtaesh ili mnogo sanuvash (dreem on [;)]). A deka ne poznavash fakti i dokumenti - ova e jasno. Otidi vo Bitolskija muzej i prashaj za plochata. Mozem samo da vi zalam i da vi se smeam na nevezestvoto. [:D]
bitushanec Chernorizec hrabar, oti malce chitaj go Crnorizec koy vo site svoi dela kazhuva: SLOVENSKIOT NAROD VO MAKEDONIJA....NIKADE NE SPOMNAL CRNORIZEC HRABAR BUGARI VO MAKEDONIJA! A bitolskata plocha e chist falsifikat! Napishana e vo ist duh i recenziya kako i vodenskata, t.e. crkvenoslovenska recenzija od 19 vek, no ne od 11 vek!!!! A razlikata pomegu crkvenoslovenskiot od 11 i 19 vek e OGROMNA! Zatoa ne treskai gluposti i odi uzhivai vo blgarskite falsifikati od Blgarskata Nartodna Biblioteka!
Chernorizec
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Chernorizec hrabar, oti malce chitaj go Crnorizec koy vo site svoi dela kazhuva: SLOVENSKIOT NAROD VO MAKEDONIJA....NIKADE NE SPOMNAL CRNORIZEC HRABAR BUGARI VO MAKEDONIJA!
On kazuva sloveni, slovenskija rod, slovenski jazik (not particularly refering to Macedonia!!!) Da, kazuva sloveni, nema bugari, no NEMA i makedonci. Kapis? [:D]
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A bitolskata plocha e chist falsifikat! Napishana e vo ist duh i recenziya kako i vodenskata, t.e. crkvenoslovenska recenzija od 19 vek, no ne od 11 vek!!!! A razlikata pomegu crkvenoslovenskiot od 11 i 19 vek e OGROMNA! Zatoa ne treskai gluposti i odi uzhivai vo blgarskite falsifikati od Blgarskata Nartodna Biblioteka!
U wish! [:D] Ne bitlskata e napisana kako vodenskata, a vodenskata kako bitolskata. Koa e praven Vodenskijat falsifikat, falsifikatorite sa sakali da prilicha na pismo ot 11 vek. No ne sa uspeli savsem da go storat toa. I zatova se znae deka e fslifikat. Ima zborovi, koi ne sa tipichni za 11 vek. A so Bitolskata plocha ne e taka. Pismoto e originalno ot 11 vek.
Gjoko
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Originally posted by noname
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Originally posted by Gjoko
Mislam deka ovoj del e posebno dobar i interesen za Bugarive: "...I am sure of one thing about u(bulgarian) ,,It is you will never accept whatever I exhibit in regard to the origin of Bulgars ..U are approaching to the Turkic theory admitted with regard to the origin of Bulgars in a negative way... The people in what is today Bulgaria are a nation with slavic language...so U can be proud of being anyone od slavic origin and ..it is your right.... Neither me and nor other scholars including Turkish ones claim that the present-day Bulgars are of Turkish origin.. U are free on thinking of how U want .. but U can not pretented the historical facts about Proto-Bulgars not to see..All of the evidences founded regarding your forefathers so far indicate in together that Bulgars are of Turkic origin.. The underlying cause behind the Turkic theory that is not wanted by some Bulgaric scholars is a feeling of antagonism against Turks emerging from historical reasons.. ..Your These scholars in question have always failed to prove their so called Iranic theory ..... The fact that Bulgars are of Turkic origin is accepted by all the world academician circle,counting Sismanov,Pulleyblank and Doerfer ,about whom Nobody can say that He likes Turks a little bit ... I just want u to get rid of the negative judgement about Turks emerging from Historical reasons.. U can dislike Turks but U have to admit the historical facts ... Dont argue upon this topic if you have never read any book about the history of Bulgars and the languages of Bulgars up to this day... I can give e-mail adress of one ,who is a scholar about the history of Bulgars ...U can ask him everything u are wondering about the Turkic theory [email protected] the last thing is that There are two ethynomis on the word Bulgar .. t is said that the word BULGAR comes from the verb BULGA(to mixture>>the combination of Uturgur and and Kuturgur Turkic tribes ))) and t is said that Bulgar comes from Bolgar ( troublemaker in Turkic).. bye for now.." Bye od nego.
And your point is? Who the fuck cares who and what were those protobulgarians? Bulgarians have only inherited their name and statehood. Ethnically they were present in today's MAcedonia and Dobrudja ONLY. And for a short period.. So what is your point?
E pa vaka, bidejki ne si ja svatil poentata da vidime; Vo prviot pasus se veli "...I am sure of one thing about u(bulgarian) ,,It is you will never accept whatever I exhibit in regard to the origin of Bulgars ..U are approaching to the Turkic theory admitted with regard to the origin of Bulgars in a negative way...I TVOJOT ODGOVOR: Who the fuck care who and what were those protobulgarians Prav Bugar bi se sramel od tebe, ti si sigurno nekoe isfrustrirano nedefinirano Vulgaro-Makedonce. 2.Posle si udirash zelba: Bulgarians have only inherited their name and statehood. Ethnically they were present in today's MAcedonia and Dobrudja ONLY. And for a short period A "baba Vangja" vika ponatamu: The people in what is today Bulgaria are a nation with slavic language...so U can be proud of being anyone od slavic origin and ..it is your right.... Neither me and nor other scholars including Turkish ones claim that the present-day Bulgars are of Turkish origin.. U are free on thinking of how U want .. but U can not pretented the historical facts about Proto-Bulgars not to see..All of the evidences founded regarding your forefathers so far indicate in together that Bulgars are of Turkic origin.. I taka natamu.. Zna ci vo duhot na tvojot anonimus-noname tie bile nikoj i nishto si bezecirale ime si bezecirale zemja i OP naednash Bugari, pa odozgora na toa I sloveni. Sakash da go odbegnesh protobulgarskoto vo Bugarite zoshto sigurno si kako shto rekov nekoj noname Vulgaro-Makedonce. Aj lebati odberi I kazi shto si??!, ne, ne se srami nishto nema da ti zamerime. Nego shto se muvash tuka na forumov kako prdez vo gakji ubeduvajki ne shto sme nie Ili si doshol da nabivash kilometraza ili si nekoj bolen nedefiniran pa sega sakash da se lecish, odi begaj be, odi na nekoj psihijatrijski forum pa prazni se tamu. Idi ubeduvaj gi Kinezite ili Irancite deka ne se Kinezi ili Iranci tuku se Bugari, ebate belja.
concrete A be Gjoko,oladi sto si zapnal,ovie se kako taftabiti,samo PIPS moze da gi srede , ne argumenti. I batali gi niv si ima i nomalni ligje vo Bugarija so koi moze normalno da se razgovara.Niv im treba pomos od drug vid.
Chernorizec
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Who the fuck care who and what were those protobulgarians Prav Bugar bi se sramel od tebe, ti si sigurno nekoe isfrustrirano nedefinirano Vulgaro-Makedonce
Vo golema zabluda si. Ama nema sto da se chudam. [:D] Za nasata smoopredelba NE E BITNO kakvi bile starite bugari - dali tjurkski, dali indoevrepojsk narod, dali smes ot nekolko etnosa. Ova sa samo hipotezi. Nisto ne ke se promeni ako edna ili druga hipoteza e vernata. Bitno e samo deka tia se bugari. Bitno e deka sme nasledili toa ime ot teh, bitno e sto sme nasledili ezikot ot slovenite.
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Zna ci vo duhot na tvojot anonimus-noname tie bile nikoj i nishto si bezecirale ime si bezecirale zemja i OP naednash Bugari, pa odozgora na toa I sloveni. Sakash da go odbegnesh protobulgarskoto vo Bugarite zoshto sigurno si kako shto rekov nekoj noname Vulgaro-Makedonce.
What is the problem? The russians speak slavic and have name that is not slavik. We speak slavic language and have name that is not slavic! I nikoj ne odbegnuva prabugarskoto. No nikoj nikogas ne moze da kaze with certainty what "part" of our blood is inherited from them... from the slavs... from avars... from ancient people like thracians, macedonians, ilirians, peonians.... from turks etc, etc. We and all peoples on the Balkan are mixture of many ethnoses. And we are not "nonamed". We are Bulgarians. There are enough documents to prove that slavic speaking people on our lands started to bear this name from around 10th century.. And what is the blood of this slavic-speaking people and how this blood changed with time because of all migrations of different ethnoses and mixtures etc, etc no one can tell. You also speak slavic and have a name that is not slavic. But your problem is that there is no evidence of slavic-speaking-people calling themselves macedonians or leaving in a state called Macedonia. Instead there are documents of slavic-speaking people in your lends calling themselves Bulgarians and a state (Samuil) called Bulgaria. And then follows the time of Revival Bulgarian Folk Songs then Ilinden.. and again Bulgarians. And today there are still Bulgarians in Macedonia (geogrphical region)[:D]
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Nego shto se muvash tuka na forumov kako prdez vo gakji ubeduvajki ne shto sme nie
Badi kakav sakas. But dont think that we'll let you desecrate our history, the name Bulgaria and Bulgarians by replacing it with Macedonia and Macedonians.
noname
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Originally posted by Gjoko
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Originally posted by noname
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Originally posted by Gjoko
Mislam deka ovoj del e posebno dobar i interesen za Bugarive: "...I am sure of one thing about u(bulgarian) ,,It is you will never accept whatever I exhibit in regard to the origin of Bulgars ..U are approaching to the Turkic theory admitted with regard to the origin of Bulgars in a negative way... The people in what is today Bulgaria are a nation with slavic language...so U can be proud of being anyone od slavic origin and ..it is your right.... Neither me and nor other scholars including Turkish ones claim that the present-day Bulgars are of Turkish origin.. U are free on thinking of how U want .. but U can not pretented the historical facts about Proto-Bulgars not to see..All of the evidences founded regarding your forefathers so far indicate in together that Bulgars are of Turkic origin.. The underlying cause behind the Turkic theory that is not wanted by some Bulgaric scholars is a feeling of antagonism against Turks emerging from historical reasons.. ..Your These scholars in question have always failed to prove their so called Iranic theory ..... The fact that Bulgars are of Turkic origin is accepted by all the world academician circle,counting Sismanov,Pulleyblank and Doerfer ,about whom Nobody can say that He likes Turks a little bit ... I just want u to get rid of the negative judgement about Turks emerging from Historical reasons.. U can dislike Turks but U have to admit the historical facts ... Dont argue upon this topic if you have never read any book about the history of Bulgars and the languages of Bulgars up to this day... I can give e-mail adress of one ,who is a scholar about the history of Bulgars ...U can ask him everything u are wondering about the Turkic theory [email protected] the last thing is that There are two ethynomis on the word Bulgar .. t is said that the word BULGAR comes from the verb BULGA(to mixture>>the combination of Uturgur and and Kuturgur Turkic tribes ))) and t is said that Bulgar comes from Bolgar ( troublemaker in Turkic).. bye for now.." Bye od nego.
And your point is? Who the fuck cares who and what were those protobulgarians? Bulgarians have only inherited their name and statehood. Ethnically they were present in today's MAcedonia and Dobrudja ONLY. And for a short period.. So what is your point?
E pa vaka, bidejki ne si ja svatil poentata da vidime; Vo prviot pasus se veli "...I am sure of one thing about u(bulgarian) ,,It is you will never accept whatever I exhibit in regard to the origin of Bulgars ..U are approaching to the Turkic theory admitted with regard to the origin of Bulgars in a negative way...I TVOJOT ODGOVOR: Who the fuck care who and what were those protobulgarians Prav Bugar bi se sramel od tebe, ti si sigurno nekoe isfrustrirano nedefinirano Vulgaro-Makedonce. 2.Posle si udirash zelba: Bulgarians have only inherited their name and statehood. Ethnically they were present in today's MAcedonia and Dobrudja ONLY. And for a short period A "baba Vangja" vika ponatamu: The people in what is today Bulgaria are a nation with slavic language...so U can be proud of being anyone od slavic origin and ..it is your right.... Neither me and nor other scholars including Turkish ones claim that the present-day Bulgars are of Turkish origin.. U are free on thinking of how U want .. but U can not pretented the historical facts about Proto-Bulgars not to see..All of the evidences founded regarding your forefathers so far indicate in together that Bulgars are of Turkic origin.. I taka natamu.. Zna ci vo duhot na tvojot anonimus-noname tie bile nikoj i nishto si bezecirale ime si bezecirale zemja i OP naednash Bugari, pa odozgora na toa I sloveni. Sakash da go odbegnesh protobulgarskoto vo Bugarite zoshto sigurno si kako shto rekov nekoj noname Vulgaro-Makedonce. Aj lebati odberi I kazi shto si??!, ne, ne se srami nishto nema da ti zamerime. Nego shto se muvash tuka na forumov kako prdez vo gakji ubeduvajki ne shto sme nie Ili si doshol da nabivash kilometraza ili si nekoj bolen nedefiniran pa sega sakash da se lecish, odi begaj be, odi na nekoj psihijatrijski forum pa prazni se tamu. Idi ubeduvaj gi Kinezite ili Irancite deka ne se Kinezi ili Iranci tuku se Bugari, ebate belja.
Aide probvai po-jasno, so poveke argumenti i po-malko gluposti? 1. Proizhod e edno, nacionalnost e drugo, toa mozesh da go svatish? Ednoto e prasanje na istorija, drugoto e prasanje na biologija. 2. Ako tolko te interesuvaat prabalgarite znachi morash da znaesh KADE ziveel takov narod i koga. Posto sigurno poima si nemash ke ti otgovoram - na po-malko ot 10% ot terirorijata na Iztochna Mizija i Makedonija se naselil ovoi narod i dori tamu ne bili vo mnozinstvo. Za Trakija pa i ne zborime. Pa ti odluchi si dali nekoi ot Vraca ili Sofija ili Plovdiv ima neshto obshto so tvoite ljubimi prabalgari ili po-verojatno nekoi ot Bitola ili Shumen?
Gjoko
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Originally posted by concrete
A be Gjoko,oladi sto si zapnal,ovie se kako taftabiti,samo PIPS moze da gi srede , ne argumenti. I batali gi niv si ima i nomalni ligje vo Bugarija so koi moze normalno da se razgovara.Niv im treba pomos od drug vid.
Tocno taka i jas samo sakav da im pomognam i eve za taa cel ushte edna adresa kade ima i nivni avtori: http://hi-story.org.mk/4.htm#_ftn1 Znaesh za izgubeni dushi,bezimeni,bezlicni pa zatoa mislam deka dobro im predloziv i vo mojata posledna recenica da gi ubeduva Kinezite ili Irancite deka ne se Kinezi ili Iranci tuku se Bugari. Tuku Concrete,izvini samo ushte edno malo postce vo vrska so pogore kazanoto da ne ostane nedefinirano: "SANPING CHEN SOME REMARKS ON THE CHINESE BULGAR (Ottawa) The ethnic, linguistic and cultural identity of the Buluoji, an ethnic group in China during the Northern dynasties, is examined to show that it represented the Altaic remnants of the Xiongnu confederation with an Iranic/Caucasian admixture. The author solves an age-old puzzle regarding the name Buluoji which exemplifies the epochal three-way interactions between Chinese, Altaic and Iranic cultures. Evidence suggesting possible connections between the Buluoji and the European Bulgars is presented, with implications for other issues, particularly the long-hypothesized Xiongnu-Hun equation. Introduction In the early sixth century when the Tuoba Wei dynasty disintegrated in the wake of the Six-Garrison Revolt, there appeared in northern China a Hu Barbarian group with the name Buluoji (middle Chinese pronunciation buo lak-kiei)[1], also known as Jihu. The late Peter Boodberg was the first to identify this ethnonym with that of the Volga and Danube Bulgars[2]. Boodbergs insightful paper unfortunately does not seem to have attracted much attention.[3] At the time, the etymology bula, to mix, to become mixed for the ethnonym Bulgar, which Boodberg followed regarding the Buluoji in China without providing substantiating data, was well-entrenched. Boodberg took Bulgar as a generic name, and considered the Bulgars in northern China just another mixed race, not at all related to the other Bulgar groups. Given the generally accepted view that various Bulgars groups in Europe and Inner Asia were not only related but also of the same origin, it seems worthwhile to reexamine this issue of the Bulgars of China, which also has implications for several topics related to the Xiongnu..." Ova zimi majka ne sum go pishuval jas!!! Pozdrav
noname
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Originally posted by Gjoko
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Originally posted by concrete
A be Gjoko,oladi sto si zapnal,ovie se kako taftabiti,samo PIPS moze da gi srede , ne argumenti. I batali gi niv si ima i nomalni ligje vo Bugarija so koi moze normalno da se razgovara.Niv im treba pomos od drug vid.
Tocno taka i jas samo sakav da im pomognam i eve za taa cel ushte edna adresa kade ima i nivni avtori: http://hi-story.org.mk/4.htm#_ftn1 Znaesh za izgubeni dushi,bezimeni,bezlicni pa zatoa mislam deka dobro im predloziv i vo mojata posledna recenica da gi ubeduva Kinezite ili Irancite deka ne se Kinezi ili Iranci tuku se Bugari. Tuku Concrete,izvini samo ushte edno malo postce vo vrska so pogore kazanoto da ne ostane nedefinirano: "SANPING CHEN SOME REMARKS ON THE CHINESE BULGAR (Ottawa) The ethnic, linguistic and cultural identity of the Buluoji, an ethnic group in China during the Northern dynasties, is examined to show that it represented the Altaic remnants of the Xiongnu confederation with an Iranic/Caucasian admixture. The author solves an age-old puzzle regarding the name Buluoji which exemplifies the epochal three-way interactions between Chinese, Altaic and Iranic cultures. Evidence suggesting possible connections between the Buluoji and the European Bulgars is presented, with implications for other issues, particularly the long-hypothesized Xiongnu-Hun equation. Introduction In the early sixth century when the Tuoba Wei dynasty disintegrated in the wake of the Six-Garrison Revolt, there appeared in northern China a Hu Barbarian group with the name Buluoji (middle Chinese pronunciation buo lak-kiei)[1], also known as Jihu. The late Peter Boodberg was the first to identify this ethnonym with that of the Volga and Danube Bulgars[2]. Boodbergs insightful paper unfortunately does not seem to have attracted much attention.[3] At the time, the etymology bula, to mix, to become mixed for the ethnonym Bulgar, which Boodberg followed regarding the Buluoji in China without providing substantiating data, was well-entrenched. Boodberg took Bulgar as a generic name, and considered the Bulgars in northern China just another mixed race, not at all related to the other Bulgar groups. Given the generally accepted view that various Bulgars groups in Europe and Inner Asia were not only related but also of the same origin, it seems worthwhile to reexamine this issue of the Bulgars of China, which also has implications for several topics related to the Xiongnu..." Ova zimi majka ne sum go pishuval jas!!! Pozdrav
Gjoko, ne sakam da idam grub, ama ako tolko mnogo znaesh za prabalgarite dali ke mi otgovorish prosto i jasno - KADE imalo takov narod NEKOGASH - okolo Plovdiv ili okolo Bitola?
Misirkov Ama vo toa e rabotata. Ta vie ne ste Bugari, toa celo vreme vi go kazuvame!
Chernorizec
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Ama vo toa e rabotata. Ta vie ne ste Bugari, toa celo vreme vi go kazuvame!
HA HA HA [:D] . . .. .. .. , . [;)] , . . . , . 10 ! ( - ), . " ".. , , , ... ... . [:D] .. , , . , . ( ) - . , . , , . . [;)]
angomako no name: 1. Proizhod e edno, nacionalnost e drugo, toa mozesh da go svatish? Ednoto e prasanje na istorija, drugoto e prasanje na biologija. -------------------------------------------------- greska,bace, drugoto e prasanje na psihologija,a ne biologija:) vo makdonija,ciganite si se kazuvaat cigani,si imaat svoj jazik,i go ucat nivniot romski jazik vo skolo. isto i turcite,i srbite,i site koi toa go pobarale:) a vo bugarija ciganite,i turcite i makedoncite,site se bugari...bar do skoro...i so sekoe pravo,ako se cuvstvuvaat taka vo nivnite srca...nikoj ne im brani....zasto nacijata ne se naogja vo biologijata...srbite od slavonija so hrvatite od slavonija imaat mnogu pogolemi slicnosti vo gen i mentalitet,jazik i kultura,nego li hrvatite od slavonija so hrvatite od dalmacija... a pak ednite se hrvati,drugite srbi,i se ispoklaa..nacijata e psihologija najmnogu,a biologija posle. istorijata i nacionalizmot se samo nacini da se konsolidira taa psihologija,i site na balkanot gi koristat tie sredstva,a najmnogu grcite i bugarite. pozdrav,
noname
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Originally posted by angomako
no name: 1. Proizhod e edno, nacionalnost e drugo, toa mozesh da go svatish? Ednoto e prasanje na istorija, drugoto e prasanje na biologija. -------------------------------------------------- greska,bace, drugoto e prasanje na psihologija,a ne biologija:) vo makdonija,ciganite si se kazuvaat cigani,si imaat svoj jazik,i go ucat nivniot romski jazik vo skolo. isto i turcite,i srbite,i site koi toa go pobarale:) a vo bugarija ciganite,i turcite i makedoncite,site se bugari...bar do skoro...i so sekoe pravo,ako se cuvstvuvaat taka vo nivnite srca...nikoj ne im brani....zasto nacijata ne se naogja vo biologijata...srbite od slavonija so hrvatite od slavonija imaat mnogu pogolemi slicnosti vo gen i mentalitet,jazik i kultura,nego li hrvatite od slavonija so hrvatite od dalmacija... a pak ednite se hrvati,drugite srbi,i se ispoklaa..nacijata e psihologija najmnogu,a biologija posle. istorijata i nacionalizmot se samo nacini da se konsolidira taa psihologija,i site na balkanot gi koristat tie sredstva,a najmnogu grcite i bugarite. pozdrav,
- / - ! . ! - ! . , . - , - [:)] , .......
angomako oficijalno se smetaat za bugari...i toa e fakt..zboram za romite.. a za turcite,ok,sega gi priznavate...za onie koi sto vo dusata se cuvstvuvaat makedonci,a takvi po 50 godini propaganda gi ima se uste,nema nitu zbor,zasto fakt e deka i bugarija se plasi isto kako i grcija od procesot na makedonskoto nacionalno zreenje..zasto vo toj proces se plasi deka kje izgubi...i tuka se korsti istorijata,a psihologijata se stava vo zaden plan...dodeka spored site evropski i svetski standardi,e obratno. prvo ide psihologija(imas bosanci,hrvati,crnogorci-site sborat eden sosema ist jazik,koj nie makedoncite za razlika od vas bugarite sovrseno go razbirame)....a posle ide biologija... psihologijata e sekogas na prvo mesto...zatoa,be batka,tuka nikogas nema nikogo da ubedis deka e bugarin,koga toj vo dusata si se cuvstviva makedonec...nema takva sila.i toa ne se desilo zaradi srbite,nisto posmesno od toa...uste ednas,srbite NE PRAVEA makedonci od bugari,toa e batka iluzija zivkovisticka...srbite imaa ista politika kako i grcite,pravea srbi od makedonci,a ne makedonci od bugari. vo makedonija bugari ima extremno,extremno malku,veruvaj...toa so pasosite e najprosta rabota i e izdiskutirano...ne bi te lazel,ama pocekaj nekolku godini i sam kje se uveris koga makedoncite kje si zemat nazad mak pasosi. taka da,mislam deka i bugarite i grcite treba da prifatat deka prvo ide grupnata psihologija na edna etnicka celina,i kako taa celina se osekja po nacionalnost. toa e najvazno,i e edinstveniot fakt sto svetot go priznava kako merodaven. drugoto e se sredstvo...so makedoncite,no name,sagata za nacionalnost e odamna zavrsena prikazna.dokolku pobrzo bugarite go prifatat toa,tolku pobrzo sorabotkata i sozivotot pomegju nasite narodi kje napredne..a do togas,stalno kje bide moe tvoe,tatari-posrbeni,i slicni navredi. kako bugarin,moras da svatis,deka za makedoncite,bugarite se nesto strano,dui postrano od srbite ili hrvatite! i ako prodolzite vie bugaite vaka,toa samo kje prodolzi vo taa nasoka. sega maedonija e vo kriza kako bugaija pred deset godini,ne po svoja vina. ama kje izleze od nea,i kje vleze vo evropa,i pak li kje si bideme stranci i kje se raspravame za moe-tvoe?jazikot i nacijata treba da se priznaat i ne treba bugarija da ima strav od makedonizmot,kade i da e...prifati go toj fakt bace ednas za sekogas,i kje vidis kako se kje se promeni,a posebno odnosot i mislenjeto na makedoncite kon bugarite. psihologija prvo,a se drugo e samo balkanizam i primitivizam. kolku i da se napizdeni lugjeto tuka na forumov,toa e zaradi istiot toj pristap od strana na bugarite,koj ne ja priznava najvaznata rabota vo vrska so makedonskoto prasanje,a toa e psiholoskata realnost na makedonizmot...zasto tuka sekoj e makedonec,isto onolku kolku sto si i ti bugarin,isto kako sto mnogu od pogrcenite makedonci vo grcija sega se cuvstvuvaat grci... i so sekoe pravo,ako taka im saka dusata...za mene celata rabota vo vrska so makedonskoto prasanje se sveduva na strav od makedonizmot od strana na grcija i bugarija. ima mnogu povekje vo vrska so makedonizmot,odkolku sto mozete vie bugarite da pretpostavite,i go uprostuvate prasanjeto do nivo posle koe ne e mozna ponatamosna komunikacija,ednostavno zatoa sto dva monologa ne cinat dijalog. makedonskata nacija e odamna celosno zatvorena prikazna,i kolku pobrzo toj fakt bugaite go prifatat,tolku podobro za komunikacijata megju nasite dve prijatelski nacii. pozdrav,
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako
oficijalno se smetaat za bugari...i toa e fakt..zboram za romite.. a za turcite,ok,sega gi priznavate...za onie koi sto vo dusata se cuvstvuvaat makedonci,a takvi po 50 godini propaganda gi ima se uste,nema nitu zbor,zasto fakt e deka i bugarija se plasi isto kako i grcija od procesot na makedonskoto nacionalno zreenje..zasto vo toj proces se plasi deka kje izgubi...i tuka se korsti istorijata,a psihologijata se stava vo zaden plan...dodeka spored site evropski i svetski standardi,e obratno. prvo ide psihologija(imas bosanci,hrvati,crnogorci-site sborat eden sosema ist jazik,koj nie makedoncite za razlika od vas bugarite sovrseno go razbirame)....a posle ide biologija... psihologijata e sekogas na prvo mesto...zatoa,be batka,tuka nikogas nema nikogo da ubedis deka e bugarin,koga toj vo dusata si se cuvstviva makedonec...nema takva sila.i toa ne se desilo zaradi srbite,nisto posmesno od toa...uste ednas,srbite NE PRAVEA makedonci od bugari,toa e batka iluzija zivkovisticka...srbite imaa ista politika kako i grcite,pravea srbi od makedonci,a ne makedonci od bugari. vo makedonija bugari ima extremno,extremno malku,veruvaj...toa so pasosite e najprosta rabota i e izdiskutirano...ne bi te lazel,ama pocekaj nekolku godini i sam kje se uveris koga makedoncite kje si zemat nazad mak pasosi. taka da,mislam deka i bugarite i grcite treba da prifatat deka prvo ide grupnata psihologija na edna etnicka celina,i kako taa celina se osekja po nacionalnost. toa e najvazno,i e edinstveniot fakt sto svetot go priznava kako merodaven. drugoto e se sredstvo...so makedoncite,no name,sagata za nacionalnost e odamna zavrsena prikazna.dokolku pobrzo bugarite go prifatat toa,tolku pobrzo sorabotkata i sozivotot pomegju nasite narodi kje napredne..a do togas,stalno kje bide moe tvoe,tatari-posrbeni,i slicni navredi. kako bugarin,moras da svatis,deka za makedoncite,bugarite se nesto strano,dui postrano od srbite ili hrvatite! i ako prodolzite vie bugaite vaka,toa samo kje prodolzi vo taa nasoka. sega maedonija e vo kriza kako bugaija pred deset godini,ne po svoja vina. ama kje izleze od nea,i kje vleze vo evropa,i pak li kje si bideme stranci i kje se raspravame za moe-tvoe?jazikot i nacijata treba da se priznaat i ne treba bugarija da ima strav od makedonizmot,kade i da e...prifati go toj fakt bace ednas za sekogas,i kje vidis kako se kje se promeni,a posebno odnosot i mislenjeto na makedoncite kon bugarite. psihologija prvo,a se drugo e samo balkanizam i primitivizam. kolku i da se napizdeni lugjeto tuka na forumov,toa e zaradi istiot toj pristap od strana na bugarite,koj ne ja priznava najvaznata rabota vo vrska so makedonskoto prasanje,a toa e psiholoskata realnost na makedonizmot...zasto tuka sekoj e makedonec,isto onolku kolku sto si i ti bugarin,isto kako sto mnogu od pogrcenite makedonci vo grcija sega se cuvstvuvaat grci... i so sekoe pravo,ako taka im saka dusata...za mene celata rabota vo vrska so makedonskoto prasanje se sveduva na strav od makedonizmot od strana na grcija i bugarija. ima mnogu povekje vo vrska so makedonizmot,odkolku sto mozete vie bugarite da pretpostavite,i go uprostuvate prasanjeto do nivo posle koe ne e mozna ponatamosna komunikacija,ednostavno zatoa sto dva monologa ne cinat dijalog. makedonskata nacija e odamna celosno zatvorena prikazna,i kolku pobrzo toj fakt bugaite go prifatat,tolku podobro za komunikacijata megju nasite dve prijatelski nacii. pozdrav,
Choveko, ai so dobro da probvame, a? 1. Imash li poima kolko se etnicheskite cigani vo BG spored OFICIALNATA STATISTIKA i OFICIALNITE POPISI? 2. Smetash li (ama iskreno) deka dori i (ama chisto hipotetichno) nekoi ciganin pochuvstvuva deka e etnicheski balgarin nie toa ke go prifatime odma i ke go priznaeme za etnicheski balgarin? (moze samo so da ili ne da mi otgovorish i ako otgovorot e DA - poveke nema da sporam....chestno!) 3. Kakvi ste vie sega i kakvi se chuvstvuvate - NAI-MALKO JAS mozam da komentiram, RAZBRA LI? Kolko pati da ti se povtori za da razberesh? Vie STE Makedonci i SE chuvstvuvate Makedonci - choveche, KOLKO pati da se povtori? Problemot e sosema drug i mnogo prost - MINATOTO! Toa e forum za ISTORIJA? Ili ne e? Istorijata (kako sto i SEKOJA druga nauka) raboti so artefakti i dokumentacija. Tolku. Poveke trebva li da se kaze neshto?
Misirkov "etnickite" cigani se istite tie sto dosle od Pamir na Balkanot.[8D]
noname
quote:
Originally posted by Misirkov
"etnickite" cigani se istite tie sto dosle od Pamir na Balkanot.[8D]
Whatever you say, professor, but they are still GYPSIES, while Dimitar Berbatov is an ethnic BULGARIAN!
angomako noname: 1. Imash li poima kolko se etnicheskite cigani vo BG spored OFICIALNATA STATISTIKA i OFICIALNITE POPISI? 2. Smetash li (ama iskreno) deka dori i (ama chisto hipotetichno) nekoi ciganin pochuvstvuva deka e etnicheski balgarin nie toa ke go prifatime odma i ke go priznaeme za etnicheski balgarin? (moze samo so da ili ne da mi otgovorish i ako otgovorot e DA - poveke nema da sporam....chestno!) 3. Kakvi ste vie sega i kakvi se chuvstvuvate - NAI-MALKO JAS mozam da komentiram, RAZBRA LI? Kolko pati da ti se povtori za da razberesh? ---------------------------------------------------- 1.ne znam dali kje go prifatite za etnicki bugarin... najverojatno nema.vo makedonija kje nemase nikakov problem whatsoever...zena mu na najpoznatiot romski muzicar e makedonka.sakam da kazam deka etnicki ili neetnicki-psihologijata e najvazna. vo grcija nema nikakvo na primer romsko malcinstvo i site tie se smetaat za etnicki grci:) ne znam kolku se romite vo bugarija,vo makedonija gi ima edno 2-3%...i toa e batka dovolno za da imaat televizii i da ucat na svojot jazik,i se sto im dusa saka...bez nekoj da gi prasuva od kade dosle,dali od egipet ili indija,ili sto se u stvari oni etnicki op poteklo,i sl...ete toa e evropski standard. a za forumov,da,u stvari ja samo napraviv mala digresija... poentata mi bese deka bugarite ne ja prifakjaat makedonskata nacija i jazikot oficijalno...se uste,za zal.se plasat da go storat toa,za da ne se predizvika lancana reakcija na nacionalno budenje vo pirinska makedonija,koja za malce kje go priznaese mak malcinstvo i kje im dadese jazik i skoli za vreme na georgi dimitrov.togas seto toa bese gotova rabota,zasto se bese zrelo toa da se sluci. i bugarite se plasat od toa,i zatoa ne ja priznavaat mak nacija i jazik.a inace,ti ko covek deka ja prifakjas ili ne,toa bas i ne ne zasega,nali:) si videl kniga prevedena od mak na bul? ili obratno? si videl mak film?ja ne sum videl bug. seto toa e po bug vina.zaradi nekoe navodno minato se negira segasnosta(ne mislam na tebe,tuku opsto za bug). uste ednas,izvini za digresijata. pozdrav,
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako
noname: 1. Imash li poima kolko se etnicheskite cigani vo BG spored OFICIALNATA STATISTIKA i OFICIALNITE POPISI? 2. Smetash li (ama iskreno) deka dori i (ama chisto hipotetichno) nekoi ciganin pochuvstvuva deka e etnicheski balgarin nie toa ke go prifatime odma i ke go priznaeme za etnicheski balgarin? (moze samo so da ili ne da mi otgovorish i ako otgovorot e DA - poveke nema da sporam....chestno!) 3. Kakvi ste vie sega i kakvi se chuvstvuvate - NAI-MALKO JAS mozam da komentiram, RAZBRA LI? Kolko pati da ti se povtori za da razberesh? ---------------------------------------------------- 1.ne znam dali kje go prifatite za etnicki bugarin... najverojatno nema.vo makedonija kje nemase nikakov problem whatsoever...zena mu na najpoznatiot romski muzicar e makedonka.sakam da kazam deka etnicki ili neetnicki-psihologijata e najvazna. vo grcija nema nikakvo na primer romsko malcinstvo i site tie se smetaat za etnicki grci:) ne znam kolku se romite vo bugarija,vo makedonija gi ima edno 2-3%...i toa e batka dovolno za da imaat televizii i da ucat na svojot jazik,i se sto im dusa saka...bez nekoj da gi prasuva od kade dosle,dali od egipet ili indija,ili sto se u stvari oni etnicki op poteklo,i sl...ete toa e evropski standard. a za forumov,da,u stvari ja samo napraviv mala digresija... poentata mi bese deka bugarite ne ja prifakjaat makedonskata nacija i jazikot oficijalno...se uste,za zal.se plasat da go storat toa,za da ne se predizvika lancana reakcija na nacionalno budenje vo pirinska makedonija,koja za malce kje go priznaese mak malcinstvo i kje im dadese jazik i skoli za vreme na georgi dimitrov.togas seto toa bese gotova rabota,zasto se bese zrelo toa da se sluci. i bugarite se plasat od toa,i zatoa ne ja priznavaat mak nacija i jazik.a inace,ti ko covek deka ja prifakjas ili ne,toa bas i ne ne zasega,nali:) si videl kniga prevedena od mak na bul? ili obratno? si videl mak film?ja ne sum videl bug. seto toa e po bug vina.zaradi nekoe navodno minato se negira segasnosta(ne mislam na tebe,tuku opsto za bug). uste ednas,izvini za digresijata. pozdrav,
Znachi prvo da obobshtim deka ti dori ne znaesh KOLKO se ciganite vo BG, ama si dozvoluvash da tvrdish deka tie ne se cigani tuku balgari (koe sto e absurdno, t.e. poveke ot absurdno), a posle oste po-neverojatno tvrdenie idva deka ciganite se cuvstvuvali (nekoi) ...balgari. Sto ima tuka da se komentira poveke???????? Za makedonskata nacija i neinoto priznanie: 1. Vo BG takava nacija nema po milion prichini. OMO Ilinden vo nai-dobriot slucai se exotika. Zasto e toa taka - sekoi sam moze da razbere samo sto moze bi na nekoi nema da mu se haresat pricinite. Ti samiot kaza (umno) deka toa e psihologija. Tochno psihologijata moze bi e prichina lugeto vo Bansko ili Petric da sa tolko golemi BG patrioti (eden moi prijatel ot Petric go komentirashe taka - "Nie imame po-nesrekjna istorija ot drugite balgari i zatoa sme takvi"); 2. Makedonska nacija vo MK - toa e neshto koe realno postoi i e isto taka psihologija. I chuvstva. Chuvstvata sa jasni - makedonski. I situacijata e sosema prosta i ednoznachna - nie trebva da pocituvame tie chuvstva, NO isto taka kako sto morame da pocituvame i cuvstvata na car Samil, Paisii, Miladinovci, Goce i dr. Ultimatumi, zaplahi, zaklinanija, zelbi-melbi i t.n. vo sluvajov se izlishni (da ne kazam smeshni). 3. Makedonski filmi sme gledali (dokolko se proizveduvat - vo mal broi). Nekoi so prevod. Nekoi bez. Za balgarite vo Zapadna BG prevodot e besmislica i pricina za smeh i psuvni po adres rodninite na preveduvachot. Makedonski knigi vo Sofia se prodavat barem na 3 mesta (na ploshtad Slaveikov mozesh da dobiesh dori nai-novi i redki knigi). Ima i prevedeni. Ima i neprevedeni - spored zelbata na kupuvachot. Makedonsko radio isto taka ne e problem. Toa koe sto ne moze da se vidi vo Sofia e MK televizija (zasega).
angomako noname: Znachi prvo da obobshtim deka ti dori ne znaesh KOLKO se ciganite vo BG, ama si dozvoluvash da tvrdish deka tie ne se cigani tuku balgari (koe sto e absurdno, t.e. poveke ot absurdno), a posle oste po-neverojatno tvrdenie idva deka ciganite se cuvstvuvali (nekoi) ...balgari. Sto ima tuka da se komentira poveke???????? -------------------------------------------------------------- batka,poentata mi e deka bugarija nema ni odblisku malcinski prava kako sto ima ili imala makedonija.da imase,sega na tie tvoite prijateli od petric i bansko nemase da im bide krivo za nisto i kje si bea blagonadezni makedonci.ama neka im e so zdravje.na omo ilinden ne im se dozvoluvase nitu regisytracija do skoro(ne znam kako stoi sega)a i redovno kjotek jadea na sredbite pred grobot na sandanski vo starite dobri vreminja. sega se slagam deka se vekje marginalizirani. pred 50 godini da se sprovedese planot na georgi dimitrov,se kje si bese kako sto treba i nemase da go pravime ovoj muabet sega.kako i da e,neka im e so srekja. za cuvstvata na samoil i na goce... jas mislam deka kje si bea srekjni so edna ubava i cela nezavisna makedonija,a posebno goce. mene mi e krivo sto ovaa makedonija kako takva zaradi politickite pricini ne uspea da go ostvari vo potpolnost sonot na goce i sandanski za nezavisna makedonija. a prevedeni knigi od mak na bul...ne mi se veruva bas..kolku?dve?tri? vo makedonija se gleda bugarska televizija-na kablovska koja site ja imaat. kaj vas uste nema takvo nesto. e kolku e de procentot na romi vo bug?bi mozel li da mi kazes? kaga praite popis,ima li odel za romi? a inaku,ne se vregjaj,procitaj uste ednas sto napisav. i ne se nerviraj:) zaklucok:makedonija imala i ima podobri malcinski prava od bugarija,i tuka ne moze za prst da ni se fatite.razlika vo mentaliteti. da gi prasase makedoncite od pirinska makedonija so kogo kje bea,dali so makedonija ili bugarija za vreme na bivsa jugoslavija...od bugarskata beda i standardot sto go imase jugoslavija,sto mislis,sto kje izberea?site kje stanea makedonci na kub,sto vprocem i bese gotova rabota pred 50godini. pozdrav,
angomako i uste nesto...omo ilinden jadea kjotek za vreme na komunizmot od ednostavna pricina..strav od makedonizmot...isto ko sto egejcite jadea kjotek od ednostavna pricina...strav od makedonizmot. na omo ilinden ne im se dozvoluvase da zemat zamav od mnogu pricini,a edna od niv e i ekonomskata situacija vo bugarija vo tie vreminja.ama srbomanite tuka ne im davaa pasosi,i ete... a inaku,ti celiov ovoj muabet tuka na forumov go teras zaradi cuvstvata na goce i samoil,a?:)) smeski
Divider Macedonia for the Macedonians, to the Macedonians. Sekoj onoj koj ke kaze poinaku e tap tatarin, klet predavnik i lazgo!! Noname i ostanatata bagra: Sfatete, nikoj ne ve tera da kazete deka ste makedonci, vie toa ste. Ili ste tapi tatari. Edno ili drugo. kkao ne vi se smaci da gi truete forumite so nebulozni izjavi, so idiotski nemisli, so iskrivokolceni fakti? Ne mora da mi odgovorite. Jas ja znam vistinata. Vie treba da si gi otvorite ocite i da razberete deka ne ste vo pravo.
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako
noname: Znachi prvo da obobshtim deka ti dori ne znaesh KOLKO se ciganite vo BG, ama si dozvoluvash da tvrdish deka tie ne se cigani tuku balgari (koe sto e absurdno, t.e. poveke ot absurdno), a posle oste po-neverojatno tvrdenie idva deka ciganite se cuvstvuvali (nekoi) ...balgari. Sto ima tuka da se komentira poveke???????? -------------------------------------------------------------- batka,poentata mi e deka bugarija nema ni odblisku malcinski prava kako sto ima ili imala makedonija.da imase,sega na tie tvoite prijateli od petric i bansko nemase da im bide krivo za nisto i kje si bea blagonadezni makedonci.ama neka im e so zdravje.na omo ilinden ne im se dozvoluvase nitu regisytracija do skoro(ne znam kako stoi sega)a i redovno kjotek jadea na sredbite pred grobot na sandanski vo starite dobri vreminja. sega se slagam deka se vekje marginalizirani. pred 50 godini da se sprovedese planot na georgi dimitrov,se kje si bese kako sto treba i nemase da go pravime ovoj muabet sega.kako i da e,neka im e so srekja. za cuvstvata na samoil i na goce... jas mislam deka kje si bea srekjni so edna ubava i cela nezavisna makedonija,a posebno goce. mene mi e krivo sto ovaa makedonija kako takva zaradi politickite pricini ne uspea da go ostvari vo potpolnost sonot na goce i sandanski za nezavisna makedonija. a prevedeni knigi od mak na bul...ne mi se veruva bas..kolku?dve?tri? vo makedonija se gleda bugarska televizija-na kablovska koja site ja imaat. kaj vas uste nema takvo nesto. e kolku e de procentot na romi vo bug?bi mozel li da mi kazes? kaga praite popis,ima li odel za romi? a inaku,ne se vregjaj,procitaj uste ednas sto napisav. i ne se nerviraj:) zaklucok:makedonija imala i ima podobri malcinski prava od bugarija,i tuka ne moze za prst da ni se fatite.razlika vo mentaliteti. da gi prasase makedoncite od pirinska makedonija so kogo kje bea,dali so makedonija ili bugarija za vreme na bivsa jugoslavija...od bugarskata beda i standardot sto go imase jugoslavija,sto mislis,sto kje izberea?site kje stanea makedonci na kub,sto vprocem i bese gotova rabota pred 50godini. pozdrav,
Batka - poentata NE e dali vo BG ima prava ili nema prava, mozes da sfatish? Poentata e ednostavno DALI ciganite se balgari (kako sto TI tvrdish) po KOI da e kriterii, razbra? Kolko TOCHNO se ciganite vo Bg mozesh da proverish na saitot na Nacionalniot Statisticeski Institut - www.nsi.bg, mislam beshe. Vo sekoi sluchai se dovolno mnogo.....za zal..... Za Goce i Samuil nikoi i ne te prasa kakvi bili cuvstvata na tie luge vo odnos na DRZAVA ili DRZAVI, a kakvi bili cuvstvata na etnicka prinadleznost. Patem - deka Samuil imal cuvstva kon ......(pazi!)....MAKEDONSKA drzava - jas dori nema da komentiram......ako sakash - poveli da go dokazesh so dokumenti? Ovoi forum e za istorija ili? A dali imalo meraci na balgari da bidat Jugoslavjani predi 50 godini - e pa vidi - ima TOCHNA informacija KOLKO balgari KOGA se pobarali Nemsko, Amerikansko, Avstriisko, Italiansko, Rusko, Rumansko, Ungarsko i t.n. drzavjanstvo - ama NIKOI - 0 na broi, ne pobaral TOCHNO Jugoslavsko. Zashto? I ne e interesno dali vlastite na Jugoslavija ne dozvoluvali, posto prvo trebva da ima BARANJE za neshto, a posle dozvola-nedozvola. M/u drugoto - i frenskite vlasti ne dozvoluvali. A ako ja sledime makedonskata logika vo istiot sluchai bi trebvalo da zakluchime deka ako (chisto hipotetichno) nekoi balgarin pobaral Jugoslavjansko drzavjanstvo predi 50 godini toa bi bilo poradi ekonomicheski prichini, za da moze da patuva bez vizi, neli?
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako
noname: Znachi prvo da obobshtim deka ti dori ne znaesh KOLKO se ciganite vo BG, ama si dozvoluvash da tvrdish deka tie ne se cigani tuku balgari (koe sto e absurdno, t.e. poveke ot absurdno), a posle oste po-neverojatno tvrdenie idva deka ciganite se cuvstvuvali (nekoi) ...balgari. Sto ima tuka da se komentira poveke???????? -------------------------------------------------------------- batka,poentata mi e deka bugarija nema ni odblisku malcinski prava kako sto ima ili imala makedonija.da imase,sega na tie tvoite prijateli od petric i bansko nemase da im bide krivo za nisto i kje si bea blagonadezni makedonci.ama neka im e so zdravje.na omo ilinden ne im se dozvoluvase nitu regisytracija do skoro(ne znam kako stoi sega)a i redovno kjotek jadea na sredbite pred grobot na sandanski vo starite dobri vreminja. sega se slagam deka se vekje marginalizirani. pred 50 godini da se sprovedese planot na georgi dimitrov,se kje si bese kako sto treba i nemase da go pravime ovoj muabet sega.kako i da e,neka im e so srekja. za cuvstvata na samoil i na goce... jas mislam deka kje si bea srekjni so edna ubava i cela nezavisna makedonija,a posebno goce. mene mi e krivo sto ovaa makedonija kako takva zaradi politickite pricini ne uspea da go ostvari vo potpolnost sonot na goce i sandanski za nezavisna makedonija. a prevedeni knigi od mak na bul...ne mi se veruva bas..kolku?dve?tri? vo makedonija se gleda bugarska televizija-na kablovska koja site ja imaat. kaj vas uste nema takvo nesto. e kolku e de procentot na romi vo bug?bi mozel li da mi kazes? kaga praite popis,ima li odel za romi? a inaku,ne se vregjaj,procitaj uste ednas sto napisav. i ne se nerviraj:) zaklucok:makedonija imala i ima podobri malcinski prava od bugarija,i tuka ne moze za prst da ni se fatite.razlika vo mentaliteti. da gi prasase makedoncite od pirinska makedonija so kogo kje bea,dali so makedonija ili bugarija za vreme na bivsa jugoslavija...od bugarskata beda i standardot sto go imase jugoslavija,sto mislis,sto kje izberea?site kje stanea makedonci na kub,sto vprocem i bese gotova rabota pred 50godini. pozdrav,
brato, eve ti tuka da ne gubish vreme vidi kolko tochno ciganor ima v Balgariikata: http://www.nsi.bg/Census/Ethnos.htm kako sto vikashe baba mi: "ciganje - beli svet"[:)] Vidi - temata za toa sto bilo predi 50 godini vo Pirinsko e druga tema, ako sakash ke ja diskutirame, da verno e - poznavam mnogo luge preziveli i pominali prez toi proces. Sega samo ke ti kazam deka ot site vo svetot NAI-malko G. Dimitrov komadval parada (t.e. odluchuval). Site reshenija bili na eden chichko - siten, so mustaki i so gruzinski akcent. Se slagam deka ako toi chichko beshe reshil drugo sega ke beshe drugo. Ednostavno! A ako chichkoto ne beshe puknal vo 1953 g. sosema pa drugo ke beshe - koi znae kakvi "cuvstva" ke imashe sega.
Great_Macedonian abe makedonci.. uste dozvoluvate dvajca bugari tolku da ve provokatiraat? ostajte gi sami neka si zborvat mejgu sebe pa mozebi ke im tekne da se odat od kanalov.
angomako noname: Batka - poentata NE e dali vo BG ima prava ili nema prava, mozes da sfatish? Poentata e ednostavno DALI ciganite se balgari (kako sto TI tvrdish) po KOI da e kriterii, razbra? Kolko TOCHNO se ciganite vo Bg mozesh da proverish na saitot na Nacionalniot Statisticeski Institut - www.nsi.bg, mislam beshe. Vo sekoi sluchai se dovolno mnogo.....za zal..... Za Goce i Samuil nikoi i ne te prasa kakvi bili cuvstvata na tie luge vo odnos na DRZAVA ili DRZAVI, a kakvi bili cuvstvata na etnicka prinadleznost. Patem - deka Samuil imal cuvstva kon ......(pazi!)....MAKEDONSKA drzava - jas dori nema da komentiram......ako sakash - poveli da go dokazesh so dokumenti? Ovoi forum e za istorija ili? A dali imalo meraci na balgari da bidat Jugoslavjani predi 50 godini - e pa vidi - ima TOCHNA informacija KOLKO balgari KOGA se pobarali Nemsko, Amerikansko, Avstriisko, Italiansko, Rusko, Rumansko, Ungarsko i t.n. drzavjanstvo - ama NIKOI - 0 na broi, ne pobaral TOCHNO Jugoslavsko. Zashto? I ne e interesno dali vlastite na Jugoslavija ne dozvoluvali, posto prvo trebva da ima BARANJE za neshto, a posle dozvola-nedozvola. M/u drugoto - i frenskite vlasti ne dozvoluvali. A ako ja sledime makedonskata logika vo istiot sluchai bi trebvalo da zakluchime deka ako (chisto hipotetichno) nekoi balgarin pobaral Jugoslavjansko drzavjanstvo predi 50 godini toa bi bilo poradi ekonomicheski prichini, za da moze da patuva bez vizi, neli? ----------------------------------------- noname, pred 50 godini jugosloven bese druga rabota. tie ne bi barale da se jugolsoveni tuku bi bile makedonci. a za toa zasto brojot ne im postoi vo bivsite komunisticki arhivi na bugarija,e toa da si go prasas ucitelot po istorija g-din todor zivkov."tocno se znael brojot"...ja majkata...za sto tocno se znael brojot be batka za vreme na komunizmot,i kolku od tie podatoci se verodostojni,i tn? toa sto go vikas e isto kako grcite koga tvrdat deka "makedionci vo egejska makedonija?...neeee....toa grcko bilo od sekogas,tamu od sekogas ziveele grci...itn".. na tie statistiki ne im veruvam,a i koj smeel be batka da bara jugoslovensko drzavjanstvo za vreme na stalinisticka bukarija? kje go ukokale so se cela familija komplet. a inaku deka gi ubivale i prinuduvale makedoncite vo pirinska makedonija so sila da se kazat makedonci e isto taka cist "boulsh.." vie mislite deka i tuka so sila gi terale makedoncite da se kazuvaat "makedonci",deka gi tepale i sto sve ne im pravele srbite za da se kazat makedonci....teski gluposti se toa batka.koga gi tepale gi tepale za da se kazat srbi,a ne makedonci. ama povtorno pravam digresija. normalno deka nemalo baranja za drzavjanstva od strana na bugarija,ama interes imalo,samo sto toa nikogas ne mozelo da se oficijalizira od poznati pricini. a be beda bese pirinska makedonija do pred nekoja godina,ej... tie demek od ljubov kon bugarstinata se resija da ziveat vo taa beda? da mozea da izberat so kogo kje ziveat,dali kako del od republika makedonija vo 20pati pobogatata jugoslovenska federacija kade sto kje bea makedonci(a ne jugosloveni-toa bese kako da kazes sega evropjanin),ili da bidat del od bedna i prebedna bugarija, aj kazi mi verno sto kje izberea? se sto rekov vo mojot post e deka edna od pricinite zaradi koja imase takov strav od omo ilinden i gi makljaa bese tokmu faktot sto postoese strav deka taa populacija vo pirinska makedonija,so ogled na ekonomskite faktori,a i bliskosta na mentalitetot,mnogu lesno i brzo mozese da se homogenizira so naselenieto od vardarska makedonija,koe bese skoro celosno homogeno uste pred vtorata svetska vojna. po moe mislenje,i kolku ja sto znam,georgi dimitrov,i pokraj toa sto mislis deka stalin go nateral,bil prilicno raspolozen da go dozvioli seto toa,se dodeka vnatre od partijata ne go pritisnale. ima eden fakt koj sto ti ne go razbiras,a toa e deka bugarite za vreme na vlasta vo makedonija tepaa makedonci i lugje sto se kazuvaa kako takvi...mnogu od niv voopsto ne mora da bile partizani ili komunisti...bea ednostavno makedonci,i pak go izedoa stapot.mnogu od tie "bugari" bea makedonci i samite,na koi im bese dadena vlast za vreme na okupacijata zasto bea bliski so fasistite od bugarija.ama pak kako procent bea premnogu malku. e sega za ciganite.... a be zaso pogresno me razbiras? imam vpecatok deka mislis deka se obiduvam da gi napravam bugarite cigani(?)..?taman rabota.. se sto ti kazuvam e deka vo makedonija uste po vtora svetska vojna se zivo imase malcinski prava,me razbiras li? vo bugarija bas i ne. izgleda jazicnava bariera malce ni pravi precki vo slobodnata i neprecena komunikacija. za goce i samoul se diskutirase,i se diskutira.ne sum istoricar,ama se razbiram od malce psihologija,i mozam da ti kazam deka gadno se lazes ako mislis deka sovremenite nacii se baziraat na "istorisko genetski" i sl continuiteti,seto toa se samo sredstva koi se koristat za otposle da se homogenizira ona sto vekje po psihologija si legnalo. takov e slucajot segde okolu tebe. grcija,bosna,bugarija,makedonija,amerika,kanada,avstralija,rusija...nema kraj nabrojuvanjeto.ama povtorno pravam digresija. +mnogu be ti se rasisticki komentarite za romite...zosto taka? sekogas koga kje otidam vo bugarija isto taka gledam kako bugari makjlaat crnci...a be rasisti ste,ej!nemojte taka,ne cini! koj ti se molam tvrdi deka ciganite se bugari?!od kaj toa go izvadi? ali ako imate odel vo ustavot za niv(od skoro),togas cool i toa e napredok. noname: A ako ja sledime makedonskata logika vo istiot sluchai bi trebvalo da zakluchime deka ako (chisto hipotetichno) nekoi balgarin pobaral Jugoslavjansko drzavjanstvo predi 50 godini toa bi bilo poradi ekonomicheski prichini, za da moze da patuva bez vizi, neli? ------------------------------------------------------------- ok,mozebi e i taka,ama samo sto zaklucivme deka se sto kje kazeme vo vrska so ovaa tema e na rekov-kazav,zasto jas ne im veruvam na tvoite stalinisticko-zivkovisticki izvori,a ti nema da im veruvas na moite "titovisticko-srbomanski" izvori:) ti rekov,znam barem trojca lugje sto podnele baranja za pasosi,i nikoj od niv ne gi saka bugarite bas premnogu,ic ne ve simpatiziraat,ali so kje prais,biznis:) i pazi,ne ti zborev ja za pasosi,tuku za drzavjanstva kako mesta na postojano ziveenje.pasos e druga rabota.... da bese obratno,makedonija da ja probiese viznata bariera pred bugarija,i da davase drzxavjanstva i pasosi na deklarirani makedonci od bugarija,+ povisok standard,aj kazi mi be noname vjarno,ete taka po bulgariceski,dali ne kje imase od njasta ni pirinska makedonija kandidati za drzavjanstvo? spekulacija,ama makedonci si se makedonci,kade i da se:) i ete,ako mislis deka baranjata za pasosi se od cisto patriotski i nacionalno osvesteni pobudi,te molam VIDI I SPOREDI go brojot na pobarani bug drzavjanstva PRED bugarija da ja probie viznata bariera i POSLE.aj stori go toa i posle kje praime muabet,ok? ja dolzam,da te prasam,da ne si slucajno makedonec,ili da ne zivees vo pirinska makedonija? pozdrav,
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako ----------------------------------------- noname, a za toa zasto brojot ne im postoi vo bivsite komunisticki arhivi na bugarija, IMAH PREDVID ARHIVITE NA yUGOSLAVIJA VO KOI STO NEMA TAKVI SLUCAI! ,a i koj smeel be batka da bara jugoslovensko drzavjanstvo za vreme na stalinisticka bukarija? NIKOI NE SMEEL, VO PRAVO SI - MNOGO PO-LESNO BILO DA SE BARA AMERIKANSKO DRZAVJANSTVO. po moe mislenje,i kolku ja sto znam,georgi dimitrov,i pokraj toa sto mislis deka stalin go nateral,bil prilicno raspolozen da go dozvioli seto toa,se dodeka vnatre od partijata ne go pritisnale. A DALI TVOETO MISLENE E BAZIRANO NA BAREM EDNA KNIGA, MNENIE, IZVOR ILI BILO STO OT G. DIMITROV? e sega za ciganite.... a be zaso pogresno me razbiras? imam vpecatok deka mislis deka se obiduvam da gi napravam bugarite cigani(?)..?taman rabota.. se sto ti kazuvam e deka vo makedonija uste po vtora svetska vojna se zivo imase malcinski prava,me razbiras li? vo bugarija bas i ne. izgleda jazicnava bariera malce ni pravi precki vo slobodnata i neprecena komunikacija. DA, TAKA IZGLEDA, VIDI TUKA: "....a vo bugarija ciganite,i turcite i makedoncite,site se bugari...bar do skoro..." TOA KOI GO NAPISHAL? JAS ZA NIKAKVI PRAVA NE MOZAM DA PROCHITAM TUKU CHITAM DEKA CIGANITE I TURCITE SE BALGARI, ZAR NE? za goce i samoul se diskutirase,i se diskutira.ne sum istoricar,ama se razbiram od malce psihologija,i mozam da ti kazam deka gadno se lazes ako mislis deka sovremenite nacii se baziraat na "istorisko genetski" i sl continuiteti,seto toa se samo sredstva koi se koristat za otposle da se homogenizira ona sto vekje po psihologija si legnalo. takov e slucajot segde okolu tebe. VOOBSHTO NE ME INTERESUVAT "SOVREMENNITE" NACII. MOZE DA GOVORIME I ZA "NESOVREMENNITE", AKO SAKASH? +mnogu be ti se rasisticki komentarite za romite...zosto taka? sekogas koga kje otidam vo bugarija isto taka gledam kako bugari makjlaat crnci...a be rasisti ste,ej!nemojte taka,ne cini! koj ti se molam tvrdi deka ciganite se bugari?!od kaj toa go izvadi? ali ako imate odel vo ustavot za niv(od skoro),togas cool i toa e napredok. AIDE PAK DA POVTORIME: "....a vo bugarija ciganite,i turcite i makedoncite,site se bugari...bar do skoro..." ti rekov,znam barem trojca lugje sto podnele baranja za pasosi,i nikoj od niv ne gi saka bugarite bas premnogu,ic ne ve simpatiziraat,ali so kje prais,biznis:) I KE ZEMAT PASOSHI NA ZEMJA KOJA STO NE JA SAKAAT? PA TAKVI "LUGE" NE SE INTERESNI, VO SEKOI SLUCHAI EDNO E "DA SAKAT", A DRUGO DA DOBIJAT TOA STO "SAKAT", SFAKJASH? ja dolzam,da te prasam,da ne si slucajno makedonec,ili da ne zivees vo pirinska makedonija? pozdrav, TOA SAMO PRIVATNO
angomako On the Macedonian Question: In the Beginning was the Word -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- by Wo1f Oschlies (Macedonian Review, 3/1983) If my neighbor is happy, my own work will go easier, too (Macedonian proverb) Twofold congratulations are due: to the Europaische Rundschau for its splendid article by Nino Ninow (in No. 3/1982) and to the author himself for his comments - seldom has it been possible to read Bulgaria's classic position on the topic of Macedonia so conclusively, so logically, quite simply so "neatly" put. Not in Sofia publications such as the brochure "The Macedonia Question" that sent out international waves in 1968, nor in the emigrant Bulgarian press such as the "Makedonska Tribuna", published in Indianapolis, which, for all its opposition to the "People's Republic of Bulgaria", so completely concurs with the official line in its rejection of Macedonian autonomy that it reprinted the said brochure without more ado.[1] No, it is worthy of note what brilliance of formulation Ninow still manages to extract from such an oft-treated topic as the so-called "Macedonian Question", and one has to read very closely to detect the weak points in his arguments. There are one minor and three major ones. The minor one could in principle be disregarded, but because the material in question - the "Bulgarian Folksongs" compendium by the brothers Dimitria and Konstantin Miladinov, which appeared in Zagreb in 1861 - has so often been presented as evidence of the Bulgarian identity of the Macedonians, there are a few words that should be said: the collection includes 660 folksongs, exactly 77 of them Bulgarian, the rest Macedonian. At the time of its publication there was no such thing as a "Bulgaria" nor a "Macedonia", since both were part of the Turkish Empire - with the result that the Bulgars and the Macedonians were united by a common interest, interest in liberation from the Turks. Seen from this aspect, the purpose of the folksong collection was a twofold one - to introduce the Macedonians to their own ethnic cultural heritage, and to draw the attention of the learned world to the Macedonians. With this latter goal in mind, Konstantin Miladinov, who had studied in Russia on a Bulgarian scholarship and maintained close links with reputable Slavophiles in Vienna and Zagreb, played the Bulgarian card: the songs, originally written down in Greek letters, were "transliterated" into Cyrillic, and the Bulgarian folklorist Vasil Cholakov was paid 100 Forint for one hundred Bulgarian folksongs, the inclusion of which in the compendium made it possible to call it "Bulgarian Folksongs" in order to gain greater international attention. The title itself was camouflage - it is enough just to read the preface by Konstantin Miladinov, in which he states the origins of the songs and pays homage to their Macedonian character, to recognize this fact [2]. There is really no more to be said on this subject - anybody who would object to Konstantin Miladinov as being a "Bulgar" should refer to his poem "Yearning for the South" which is a veritable hymn to Macedonia ("Live me wings, not to stay! to our own land would I away! To our places would I go ! Ohrid to see and Struga to show"). But that is, as we have already agreed, a minor point by comparison with the three weightier shortcomings in Ninow's aricle: one ease of a lack of prudence, one of misinterpretation, and one of politically motivated arrogance (which, of course, is incorporated in the whole fragility of the Bulgarian position on Macedonia). But now, one thing at a time, please! A "Self-Styled Nation"? It is imprudent for Ninow to make a strict distinction between Pirin-Macedonia (Bulgaria) and Vardar-Macedonia (Socialist Republic of Macedonia in Yugoslavia) and between their two populations and, on that basis, to accuse Yugoslavia in ever new variations of raising the most multifarious claims to Pirin. If, 'as Ninow writes, the Macedonians from the Pirin are Bulgars (and the annexation of the Pirin after the partitioning of Macedonia in the Balkan Wars of 1912/13 was an "act of national liberation"), and if on the other side of the border on the banks of the Vardar a "new nation" is created - a "self-styled nation" that has "no, roots" and which can lay claim to only a dubious "auto-genesis" - then that can only mean that all Macedonians are in reality Bulgars. Though Ninow does not say so that explicitly, he does imply it' for example in sentences such as the following: "The freedom fighters in Macedonia at the beginning of the century, the idea of a separate Macedonian nationality was (...) completely alien." And this is where the lack of prudence starts, for it was precisely by these freedom fighters that the idea of Macedonian autonomy was brought to its apotheosis[3]. The beginning of the century was not only the time of the Ilinden Uprising (August 1903), which was launched because of this ideal alone, but also the time in which Krste Petkov Misirkov (1879-1926) wrote, so to speak, the Magna Carta of this idea in his book On Macedonian Affairs. In it he wrote, for example: "Our links with the Bulgars were very close because of our common predicament under Turkey: we were brothers in fate, and our relationships with the government and with the Phanariot clergy were the same. Our common fate also attached to us the common name of Bulgars (...). It is on this that the Bulgars based their claims to Macedonia, and the Macedonians lived in expectation of liberation from Bulgaria. But the rivalry for Bulgaria that arose in the political and national respects on the part of Serbia in the Macedonian Question also brought the Macedonians themselves onto the political scene. The Macedonians started to take a greater interest in the question of their nationality and their own fate (...). These are the results of our recognition of our own identity to date. The Organization, with its gradual separation of Macedonian interests from Bulgarian, with the taking of the Macedonian Question into our own hands, and with the present uprising there finally came to be what nobody had envisaged: instead of calling for freedom, most people in Macedonia are now convinced that we should completely break off our links with all Balkan peoples and must cultivate everything that is original and ours in Macedonia: the language, the customs, the history, the literature, ethnic activities, etc.[4]." Fortunately, the Macedonians did not consummate the segregation from their Balkan neighbors recommended by Misirkov; instead, their national and their cultural consciousness and emancipation culminated in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. To negate the historical origins of this development, to typify its present-day character as mere "Bulgarophobia", to denounce its long-term effects as an "instrument of creeping expansion", and to see its international consequences as a possible "territorial conflict" between Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, all things that Ninow does, is the continuation of the initial imprudence: for we could point out that what is perhaps more dangerous is a country that lays claim to the entire population of another as part of its own nation which Ninow only implies, but which is official Sofia policy. In the Bulgarian capital there appeared in 1978 - in Bulgarian and English-a voluminous compendium of "Documents and Material" on the Macedonian Question, which starts off with the following claims on Macedonia even in the foreword: "?that the Slavic population in this region is Bulgarian, that the Bulgars in Macedonia are an indivisible component of the Bul-garian nationality in the Middle Ages and of the Bulgarian nation in more recent and contemporary times, that they think of and refer to themselves as Bulgars and, as such, are fighting for free-dom and independence,. that they speak Bulgarian and regard their language as Bulgarian"[5] The Yugoslav press did not report it, but it is said that in Titov Veles this book was publicly burned by enraged Macedonians. But Ninow's imprudence goes even further - because he regards the Macedonians in Yugoslavia as a "new", artificial, and rootless nation, he can look back in a patronizing fashion on the few decades of Macedonian autonomy and surround its future in darkness. As long as he thinks so! In Macedonia itself, everybody is convinced that the Bul-garian position is becoming less and less credible day by day, for the Macedonian nation is emerging more and more and emanating stronger and stronger gravitational forces as each day passes. The Macedonian politician, Lazar Kolishevski formulated this in a speech as long ago as in 1973: "Naturally, the fact that we exist, that the Socialist Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian nation are constantly evolving and consolidating in every Macedonian - regardless of where he lives - his feeling of belonging to his nation. This is a process that cannot be halted by anything"[6]. What really happened? To turn now to the misinterpretation that Ninow presents of the course of development in the immediate post War period and the plans, etc., of the day. Admittedly, the Bulgarians are really to be pitied, because their earlier positions are so diametrically opposed to their later attitudes that today's Bulgarian publicists have no other recourse but to condemn everything said in the past as "a nihilistic line on our part"[7] and in doing so to have to come to terms with the fact that it was "Bulgaria's greatest son", Georgi Dimitrov, that determined Bulgaria's policies after the war. But rubbing that under the Bulgiarians' noses is a pleasure frequently and with obvious enjoyment in Belgrade and Skopje. According to Ninow, what happened was that the official recognition for a time of a Macedonian minority in Bulgaria - and be it only in the form of "census Macedonians" - was the "result of the situation at the time" with a view to the peace treaty still to be concluded, that Yugoslavia "led Bulgaria astray" with all sorts of federation plans (while in fact "postponing the federation of the Southern Slavs ad calendas graecas"), that "Yugoslav emissaries" in the Pirin "interfered with cultural life and the education system with the intention of alienating the population of Bulgaria". But what really happened? Anybody who visits the church of the Holy Savior in Skopje, where the tomb of the Macedonian national hero, Gotse Delchev is to be found will hear eulogies to the Bulgar, Georgi Dimitrov, of no less than amazing cordiality and sincerity. In Bulgaria, towns named after Dimitrov have been renamed - Pernik was known as Dimitrovo from 1949 to 1962 - not so in Yugoslavia. And Vladimir Dedier - confidant of Tito and historiographer of the conflict between Tito and Stalin -had friendly words to say of only one Eastern European party leader: Dimitrov[8]. Any amount of evidence can be found for the sincere admiration that Georgi Dimitrov enjoys in Yugoslavia - as the Bulgarian politician who, for example, ensured that a "Resolution on the Macedonian Question" was unanimously passed at the 10th Plenary Session of the CC of the BCP on the 9th and 10th August, 1946, which included the articles: 1.The Bulgarian Workers' Party - Communists (the name of the BCP at that time, author's note), is of the opinion that the fundamental section of the Macedonian people has organized itself as a state and as a nation within the Federative People's Republic of Yugoslavia, namely as the People's Republic of Macedonia. The unification of the other sections of the Macedonian people will have to be implemented on the basis of the Macedonian People's Republic and within the FPR of Yugoslavia. 2.The BWP-C is of the opinion that the preparations for establishing the conditions for this unification and for the unification of the Pirin region with the PR of Macedonia is the affair of the Macedonians themselves and is the common task of Bulgaria and Yugoslavia[9]. On 17th August. 1946, this resolution, bearing Dimitrov's signature, was sent to Tito - together with a personal accompanying letter from Dimitrov to Tito: "In sending you this resolution, which for understandable reasons will not be published in the press, I would request you to bring it to the notice of our leading Macedonian comrades in Skopje?quot;[10] Thus culminated the policies of Bulgarian Communists who had up to that time always advocated Macedonian autonomy and disavowed "Greater Bulgarian chauvinism" - something which is no longer remembered in Bulgaria but is very much in the mind of Yugosiavs[11]. It is also still well known in Yugoslavia what great and manifold opportunities for autonomy the Pirin Macedonians enjoyed in Bulgaria after[12]; and how a tightknit network of Macedonian schools was set up in the Pirin, for the establishment of which Skopje was even requested to send Macedonian teachers[13]. The segregation of two problems after the war which Ninow claims occurred and for which he lays the blame on Yugoslavia - for putting Macedonian autonomy before a Southern Slav federation - is a fiction: Tito and Dimitrov, close personal friends, met in Bled in Yugoslavia (1st August, 1947) and in Evksinograd in Bulgaria (27th September, 1947) to reaffirm the cultural autonomy of the Pirin Macedonians. At the same time, they agreed to pursue the closest possible Yugoslav~Bulgarian co-operation with a view to future federation[14]. In the meantime, Pirin Macedonia exercised loyalty to all sides - its sympathies were with its neighbors and countrymen in Yugoslavia, but it continued to give political support to the ruling "Patriotic Front" in Bulgaria. The then Vice-President of the Yugoslav Parliament, Dimitar Vlahov, visited the Pirin in late 1947 and gave a very vivid report of what he saw there[15]. Basically, all that remained unclear were some procedural questions - but these carried weight: for example, whether the future confederation should be built up according to the 1 + 1 model (Bulgaria plus Yugoslavia) or to the 1 + 6 model (Bulgaria becoming the seventh Republic in the Yugoslav Federation). Before any clarification could be reached, however, a massive Soviet veto was delivered - on 28th January, 1948, Moscow's Pravda declared that the whole federation project was "dubious and artificial", and when the conflict between Stalin and Tito came along, it was all over anyway. For a while, Dimitrov stuck by his belief that the conflict was a matter between parties that need not have any negative repercussions on policies between states, but in the face of growing Soviet pressure Bulgaria gave in and cut off its relations with Yugoslavia16. As early as in July 1948, the CC of the BCP denied Yugoslavia all influence in Pirin Macedonia, but, interestingly enough, continued to uphold the principle of "the cultural autonomy of the Macedonian population of the Pirin region"[11]. A Proud Balance And so things continued for over ten years - a fact that Ninow overlooks when he quickly jumps from 1946 to 1965 and the period thereafter. Even in 1952, the BCP head of Pirin Macedonia was able to publish in the Bulgarian Party organ, Rabotnicesko Delo (Workers' Affairs) a proud balance of "what the people's authorities give the Macedonian population from the free Pirin land" - with constant side glances at Vardar Macedonia, where the "Tito-Kolishevski gang" was doing much less for the Macedonians[18]. And on 1st December, 1956, a new set of national statistics was drawn up for Bulgaria which identified among a total population of 7,613,709 persons 6,506,541 Bulgars, 187,789 Macedonians, and members of over a dozen other nationalities; these statistics were still published in the 1959 Bulgarian Statistical Yearbook[19]. Likewise in 1959, Bulgaria's leading historian, Dimitar Kosev, was able to publish a major essay which, though it contained massive polemics against his counterparts in Skopje, primarily lamented the failure of the Bulgarian-Yugoslav federation to materialize, which had appeared to him to be desirable especially in the interests of the Macedonians.[20] There is no more to be said on this subject - but no less, either, which is what Ninow attempts to do. It only remains to be asked why Bulgaria has performed such a radical about-turn that today it cannot bear to hear any more about the "Macedonians", least of all within its own borders. To answer this question is at the moment difficult to impossible, but it may be suspected that, between 1948 and 1959, Sofia intended to make the Pirin into such a "showcase" that the Yugoslav Macedonians, too, would tend towards Bulgaria, and that the powers-that-be then promptly "forgot" about the Macedonians when this plan turned out to be an illusion. But there is probably nobody who knows anything specific about this. Political Arrogance There remains to be discussed Ninow's politically motivated arrogance - that with which he treats the Macedonian language: he does this with fleeting elegance - without doubt more elegantly than other Bulgarian publicists, for whom Macedonian is merely an "externally imposed conglomeration of dialects and loan words"[21]. Ninow does not need such heavy artillery - for him, Macedonian is a "new language created in Skopje after the war" and which "despite the pertinacious infiltration of alien elements" is still Bulgarian in its basic structures and essential features. Let us leave aside the fireworks display of catch-phrases that Ninow sets off with the alleged demand by Yugoslavia that "Sofia must also recognize the Macedonian language". This demand does not exist, of course - what form should the "recognition" of a language by another state take nowadays, anyway? Enigmatic is the following sentence by Ninow: "Bulgarian tradition knows no urge to discriminate against the Macedonian language". This sentence is neither correct nor incorrect (that is possible, too!). Since pre-war Bulgaria regarded "Macedonia" only as a geographical term and did not even give any thought at all to the autonomy of the Macedonian nation or of the Macedonian language, it would have been difficult for it to discriminate against a "Macedonian" language: according to Bulgarian opinion at that time, Bulgarian was spoken in Macedonia, and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was accused of impeding the use of just that Bulgarian[22]. After the war, opinions were different in Sofia, but for years now, the old ideas have been back in force. In 1978 a linguistic collective work by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences that was also circulated in the German language came to the conclusion: "On its century long historical road, the Slavic population of the geographical region of Macedonia has been Bulgarian and has spoken Bulgarian"[23]. Is such an opinion on the part of an academic body "discrimination" or something else? In Skopje where they have a very good general view of the notable activities pursued in the field of Macedonian language studies in Poland, the Soviet Union, the GDR and other countries of Eastern Europe, with the exception of Bulgaria, the Bulgarian Academy's work was received with perfect composure: "There are good reasons to ask oneself whether one should pay any attention at all to such texts that are so distinctly geared towards the politics of the day". So they didn't instead, they took the opportunity of presenting the international academic public with a bouquet of examples of the independent existence of the Macedonian language over the centuries.[24] The Macedonian Language On this subject, Ninow is mistaken! The Macedonian language is neither "new", nor has it "emerged since the war"; nor is it semi-Bulgarian - although very closely related to Bulgarian. But how much does that count in the context of the Slavic languages - whose degree of mutual kinship is greater than that of the dialects of German, for example. Anybody who has attended an international conference in Eastern Europe knows how readily Slavs understand each other, even when each uses his own idiom. But that is not the problem. Ninow says himself that the "vernacular of the Slavs from Southern Macedonia" formed the protoplasm from which the Slavic Apostles, Cyril and Methodius launched their linguogenetic activities. In Skopje today, the general opinion is that this vernacular - that of the "Macedonian Slavs", as they were known in the official language of Byzantium - was, so to speak, the original proto-Macedonian, especially since the mother of Cyril and Methodius was one of those "Macedonian Slavs". It is a demonstrable fact, however, that the linguistic differentiation between Bulgarian and Macedonian began even with the disciples of the two apostles - with Angelari, Kliment and Naum: the first stayed in the old Bulgarian capital of Preslav, and the literary "school" demonstrated its Helenophilia by transcribing the Old Slavonic Glagolitic into the more practical Cyrillic alphabet; not so Kliment and Naum, whose field of action was the Macedonian Ohrid, which clung tenaciously to the Glagolitic alphabet until the 12th century. Lexical, stylistic and phonetic differences grew along side the graphic differences, because the "Ohrid Literary School" felt more committed to the traditions of Cyril and Methodius than did its sister in Preslav. And once started, this drifting apart continued during the period of Serbian mastery over Macedonia (13th to 14th centuries), with features such as vocalization to -0 (instead of the Bulgarian a? becoming firmly established as typically characteristic of Macedonian, and in particular under the Turks (14th to 20th centuries), when the churches and monasteries were the last bastions of the national culture. From the end of the 15th and the beginning of the 16th century, we find in Macedonia - under the influence of certain authors such as Vladislav Gramatik, Dimitar Kratovski and others, but also of the popular books of the "Damaskines" and the beginnings of book-printing - a language that had already developed all the basic structures of present day Macedonian[25]. A new situation arose in the 19th century: more and more purely Macedonian books appeared (which from 1838 were published in a special Macedonian printing. house in Salonica); secular schools of a Macedonian national character were founded in addition to the cell schools in the monasteries, Macedonian "reading halls" were established everywhere[26], and learned people developed a pronounced interest in the Macedonian cultural heritage - the Miladinov brothers have already been mentioned, but others such as Stefan Verkovich, Partenia Zografski, Kuzman Shapkarev and many more were also active at the same time. These effectively consummated the cultural and linguistic differentiation between Bulgarian and Macedonian, although that was by no means their intention: the clergyman, Partenia Zografski (1818-1876), for example, fought most energetically and deliberately for the autonomous Macedonian language (for which he was one of the first to publish a textbook), but nevertheless endeavored to build up a Macedonian literary language on the basis of Bulgarian[27]. For the Bulgars were regarded not as enemies but as natural allies against the Turks and their Greek henchmen. In the second half of the 19th century, Macedonia was the only country that had not gained its independence from the Turks, and it was courted by the others with vigorous propaganda. This fact had a lasting effect on the cultural and linguistic scene, where four currents were vying with and against each other: Macedonian is essentially identical to Serbian, said some; Macedonian and Bulgarian are essentially the same, claimed others; while a third group around the poets Prlichev and Zhinzifov declared Macedonian to be a 'pan-Slavic conglomerate". What was common to these three currents, however, was that all three took as their basis Macedonian, the language of their day-to-day life and their environs, and put it in first place; even Prlichev, who saw Macedonian as a hybrid artificial language proved with his children's poems in the Ohrid dialect that he was a master of that vernacular. This insistence on the pre-eminence of the Macedonian language, however, brought these three currents into the proximity of the fourth and most important, that of the "Macedonists" around Giorgi Pulevski, Krste' Misirkov and others, who were convinced of the absolute autonomy of the Macedonians and their language, which needed only to be rounded off by a formalized and literary language level. In Misirkov's "On Macedonian Affairs", we can read the following as regards the diagnosis and therapy thereof: "The danger threatening our people and 'our interests in the form of the propaganda that is being waged with all legitimate and illegitimate means in order to eradicate from Macedonia our language and our intellectual interests, in order to put in their place foreign languages and alien interests, (this danger) not only obliges us but also gives us every right to use all legitimate and illegitimate means to defend our people's language and with it our national interests. In doing so, we demand nothing alien but are protecting what is ours (...). The opportunity is now expedient for us to select as our common literary language the vernacular of Central Macedonia, that is to say that of Veles, Prilep, Bitola and Ohrid (...). Around this central vernacular we must now group all our academic and literary forces, to purify it and to enrich it with the treasures of the other Macedonian dialects, to make out of it a beautiful language of literature (...). The creation of a literary language is an intellectual necessity to us, with which we intend to put an end to the abuse of our interests by propaganda, with which we must create our own center of literature and science, so that we no longer have any need of Belgrade and Sofia. This difficult task will only be solved if the Macedonian from the North offers his hand to his brother from Southern Macedonia, and the Macedonian from Eastern Macedonia to his brother from the West. The handshakes cross at Prilep and Bitola"[28]. Prophetic words, for it was precisely in this way that the Macedonian language - the autonomous identity of which was explicitly noted by the Comintern in 1934 - continued its development, and the Second World War brought the handshake between all Macedonians predicted by Misirkov: the Macedonian partisans received their orders in Macedonian, published Macedonian newspapers and journals, wrote books and plays, and by the end of the war the clearly outlined foundations of a Macedonian literary language - based on the Central Macedonian dialects and with phonetic orthography - were ready to be built upon. When the leaders of the partisans proclaimed the Macedonian Republic from the monastery of Prohor Pchinski on 2nd August, 1944 and decreed "In the Macedonian State the official language is the national Macedonian language", they were basically only legitimating what the course of the war had already brought forth[29]. It is completely incomprehensible why Ninow should attribute the foundation of the State of Macedonia to a "failure" on the part of the Yugoslav Communists. If communists ever and anywhere have been "successful", then it was in Yugoslavia, where they came to power without Soviet "assistance", where they had the majority of the people behind them, where they gave nations which had been treated cruelly by history, such as the Macedonians, a chance, and where they preserved land and peoples from joining the colorless ranks of Moscow's satellites! But that has nothing to do with the language, and it is the language with which we are now concerned. What this language "introduced" after the war was no more than that which it had not been possible to introduce earlier - an alphabet (to be more precise: a variant of the Cyrillic alphabet modified to reproduce the phonetic peculiarities of the Macedonian language), a standard orthography, and a binding grammar. Apart from these aids, what the Macedonian language now did was to develop its own inner life which up to then it had only been able to lead in secret. It differs from all other Slavonic languages in a number of significant peculiarities: its dynamic accent, permanently fixed on the antepenultimate syllable; the formation of accent units; almost complete loss of the phoneme "h"; enclitic definite article in three forms (knigata = the book, knigava = the book here, knigana = the book over there); composite tenses with "sum" (to be) and "imam" (to have); doubling of all direct object in a sentence (go vidam chovekot = I see him, the man); reflexive endings in front of the verb, and many more[30]. To reiterate: this is not a "new" language but a very old one that has awoken to a new life. It has survived for hundreds of years and, unless all appearances are deceptive, it lives on even in Bulgarian Pirin Macedonia. On this subject there appeared a comprehensive learned work in Sofia in 1980 that commendably dealt with the dialects spoken in the Pirin. And these reveal a truly amazingly large number of features that they share with the linguistic conventions of beyond the border in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia[31]. If one comes into contact with Macedonians today, for example at the Seminar on Macedonian Language, Literature and Culture which has been held regularly for 15 years (which is never attended by Bulgarians, but otherwise by practically the whole world), one can compress what one hears into this formula: In the beginning was the word, as it was spoken by Cyril and Methodius, Kliment and Naum; in the struggle for the word, centuries of alien mastery were survived; under the banner of the word and with its assistance the full Macedonian national life is only just beginning. A Question that does not exist The concept of "scientific objectivity" is even more of a fiction in the humanities and the social sciences than anywhere else - whoever writes in these passes judgment, and whoever passes judgment should admit to and stand by his judgment. I am pleased to admit that I have put (and am still putting) a lot of effort into learning the languages of the Bulgarians and the Macedonians and that I have come to know and cherish much affection for both of these peoples. For this reason, I allow myself a number of very personal observations as to how the "Macedonian Question" poses itself to the man in the street in Sofia or Skopje. The ongoing conflict over Macedonia obscures the fact that the Bulgarians and the Macedonians do not hate each other. If Macedonians are at all capable of feeling something like hate, then it is for the Greeks who have been holding the entire southern half of their country under foreign occupation since 1912 and there forcibly put down every stirring of Macedonian identity - including the use of the Macedonian language[32]. In this respect the present socialist government in Greece is even more radical by far than the Junta of Greek colonels were in the past: even as late as in 1982 Athens passed a law forbidding Greek citizens to study at universities abroad "at which the language in which instruction is given is not universally internationally recognized". This boils down to a "Lex Skopje" intended to deprive the Macedonian minority in Greece - about 200,000 - of their last contact with Macedonian culture.[33] As regards their northern neighbors, however, the Macedonians bear the Bulgarians hardly any resentment. They may joke about the Bulgars, but they respect them as an industrious people and think they cannot help acting as they do - because their political "big brother" is leading them by the hand. And the official Bulgarian negation of everything that is Macedonian has long ceased to be taken seriously in Skopje and its surroundings. Besides, the Bulgarians have been in the Macedonian capital's good books since 26th July, 1963, when Skopje was devastated by a fearful earthquake at the cost of over a thousand dead, 200,000 homeless, and the almost complete destruction of the city. Among the first to hurry to help were Bulgarian army units -they arrived in ramshackle trucks of Russian provenance, but the way they got stuck in and down to work has never been forgotten in Skopje! The Bulgarians for their part feel something bordering on admiration for Macedonian efficiency, economy, circumspection and shrewdness. If somebody makes a rapid and brilliant name for himself in Bulgaria he is generally assumed to be a Macedonian - and in most cases the assumption is correct. I have heard from people who ought to know that the former President of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Todor Pavlov, used to shout at his staff at least once a week "You Bulgars! But look at us Macedonians!". At times I get the impression that the "Macedonian Question" in politics is a similar case to that of legasthenia in pedagogy - you have to go into it very closely to realize that it does not exist. 1 Cf ,,Makedonskia Vapros" (The Macedonian question) in: Makedonska Tribuna, No. 2614, 29th December, 1977, to No.2623, 2nd March 1978. 2 For details, Haralampie Polenakovich, Studies on the Miladinovs, Skopje 1973 3 For details, Jutta de Jong: ,,Der nationale Kern des makedonischen Problem - Ansatze und Grundlagen einer makedonischen National-bewegung (189~1903). Ein Beitrag zur komparativen Nationalismusforschung", Europdicche Hochschnlschriften, Series 3, Vol. 174, Frankfurt am Main/Bern 1982. 4. K. P. Misirkov, On Macedonian Affairs, Sofia 1903, `pp.70, 75. 5 Cf. Macedonia -A Compendium of Documents and Material, Sofia 1978, p.33. 6 Lazar Kollshevski, (Aspects of the Macedonian Question), Skopje 1980, pp.445 et seq. 7 Cf Yordan Graninain, (What do the facts say?) in: Pirinsko Delo No 93, 12th August, 1971, p. 4, No 94, 14th August, 1971, p.5. 8 Vladimir Dedijer, Stalins verlorene Schlacht - Erinnerungen 1948 bis 1953, Vienna~Frankfurt--Zurich 1970, pp.166 et seq. 9 Boro Mitrovski, Tomo Ristovski (G. D. on the Macedonian National Question and Yugoslav-Bulgarian Relations), Skopje, 1979, pp.102 et seq. 10 Id., pp.103 et seq. 11 Cf. Lazar Mojsov, (The BWP-C and the Macedonian National Question), Belgrade 1948, second edition in the Macedonian language, Skopje 1978. 12 Nikola Chingo, ,,The Macedonians in Bulgaria after the Fall of the Fascist Regime", in: Macedonian Review, No. 3/1977, pp. 273-28. 13 Misho Kitanovskl, ,,The Macedonian Schools in Pirin Macedonia", in: Macedonian Review No 2/1979, pp. 160~167. 14 Slobodan Nesovic, (The Tito-Dimitrov agreement of Bled), Zagreb 1979. 15. Dimitar Vlahov, (Impressions from Pirin Macedonia), in: Nova Makedonija, 31St December, 1947, p. 16 Hans-Joachim Hoppe, ,,Georgi Dimitrov - wieder aktuell", In: Osteuropa No 2/1974, pp.127-137. 17 Text of the resolution in Novo Vreme No.6-7/1948, pp. 512 et seq. 18 K. Trichkov, , What the people's authorities have given the Macedonian population from the free Pirin land, in. Rabotnichesko Delo , 3rd October, 1952. p.2. 19 Cf. (Statistical Yearbook of the People's Republic of Bulgaria), Sofia, 1959, p.28. 20 Dimitar Kosev, , (Revisionist falsifications of Bulgarian history by historians in Skopie), In: Istoricheski Pregled 1/1959, pp. 1-44. 21. Gradinajn, op. cit, part 2. 22 ~ Mladenov, Integral Yugoslavia from the language aspect, in: Rodna Rech, 1932-33, pp. 3-14. 23 Cf. ,,Edinstvo na bqlgarskia ezik v minaloto i dnes", in: Bqlgarski ezik No. 1/1978, pp. 33; cf. also the German translation: Die Einheit der bulgarischen Sprache ja yergangenheit und Gegenwart. Sofia, 1970, 70 pages. 24.Todor Dimitrovski, Blaze Koneski, Trajko Stamatoski, On the Macedonian language, Skopje 1978, 95 pages. 25. For details refer to Mihailo Georgievski, The Macedonian Literary Heritage from the 11th to the 18th Centuries - A Review, Skopje, 1979. 26 For details refer to Mihailo Georgievski,. Monastery Libraries and Reading Halls in Macedonia up to 1912, Skopie 1975. 27. Tome Sazdov, Studies on Macedonian Popular Literature, Skopje, 1978, pp. 62 et seq. 28. Misirkov, op. cit., pp.137,138, 139, 141 29.Cf. Documents on the struggle of the Macedonian People" for Autonomy and their National State, Vol.11, Skopje, 1981, pp.555 et seq. 30. For details refer to Vera Bojic', Wolf Oschlles, Lehrbuch der mazedonischer Sprache, Bonn-Cologne, 1981, hect. 31. Hadzinikolov (ed.), Pirin Country - Ethnographic, Folklore and Linguistic Studies, Sofia, 1980, pp. 625 et seq. 32 Cf. Toso Popovsk, The Macedonian National Minority in Bulgaria, Greece and Albania, Skopje 1981, pp. 6~84, 191-23. 33 Dragan Jovanovic, Law Versus Diploma, in: NIN (Belgrade), No 1668, 19th December 1982, pp.17-18
angomako haha,makedonec si more:) neso mnogu po zapadno narecie mi zbores...:)
angomako noname: I KE ZEMAT PASOSHI NA ZEMJA KOJA STO NE JA SAKAAT? PA TAKVI "LUGE" NE SE INTERESNI, VO SEKOI SLUCHAI EDNO E "DA SAKAT", A DRUGO DA DOBIJAT TOA STO "SAKAT", SFAKJASH? ----------------------------------------- toa sto sakaat da go dobija e izlez za vo evropa za da mozat na raat biznis da pravat,zasto inaku ostanaa bez rabota. by the way,takvi se site,ili bar 99% od onie mak sto aplicirale za pasosi,i pak proveri go faktot za brojot pred i posle bugarija da ja probie viznata bariera,pa kje ti stane jasno kolku se "patriotski" nivnite pobudi. i se slagam deka takvite lugje ne bi trebalo da se interesni,ama ete,od nekoja pricina na tebe i na nekoi drugi blagonadezni im se interesni.se prasuvam zosto...again,proveri pred i posle viznata bariera.mnogu ednostaven fakt.
angomako no name: TOA KOI GO NAPISHAL? JAS ZA NIKAKVI PRAVA NE MOZAM DA PROCHITAM TUKU CHITAM DEKA CIGANITE I TURCITE SE BALGARI, ZAR NE? -------------------------------------------------------------- pa bea do skoro,do pred nekoja godina...i toa e fakt.dobro e sto ima napredok kaj vas vo toj pogled,zasto bevte tunguzija vo opgled na malcinski prava,a po se izgleda se uste ste.
angomako Radio France International: Report on Macedonians in Bulgaria Radio France International BULGARIA AND THE MINORITIES RIGHTS April 3, 2004 Another Europe (Reporter - Maria Bezanovska) Translated from French by Elena Veljkovic Reporter: Good day everyone. Observance of minorities rights is one of the essential conditions for becoming a member of the European Union. We shall dedicate two programs to this problem in Bulgaria. (Music) Bulgaria has eight million and two hundred thousand (8,400,000) inhabitants, most of which are Bulgarians, a Slavic nation that came to this region in the seventh century. Apart from the Bulgarians, there are also Turks who came here during the Ottoman Empire. There are 800 thousand of them. Being exiled during the communist regime, which had the intention of homogenizing the society, a large number of them migrated to Turkey. The Romany is the second largest national minority. Their number is estimated to around 400 thousand. Among the Bulgarian citizens there is a group of the so-called Pomaci, who had been forced into changing their religion into Moslem by the ottoman Turks. They had saved their own language as well as certain Christian customs, but their women were vailed. Then, there are Russians, Armenians, Greeks, Gagauzes from Turkish origin that had adopted the Christian religion. All these data are based on the census of the population conducted in the year 2001. Here is what Antonina Zeljaskova, president of the Minorities Research Center in Bulgaria, says regarding this question. Antonina Zeljaskova: According to the last census, there are around twenty national minorities, some of which are represented only by two hundred, three hundred or four hundred people. The government even financed a program for a more detailed study of those minorities in order to comprehend their way of life, their culture and their diffusion in Bulgaria more precisely. All national minorities are recognized. Question: I recall that about ten years ago there was a serious problem with the Turkish minority. At that time, their surnames were changed into Bulgarian (Bulgarianized). There was also a large wave of immigration of this minority to Turkey. But then, things changed greatly. I can see that this minority participates in the life in Bulgaria completely. I think that their party is even part of the government coalition. Antonina Zeljaskova: Yes. After the fall of the communist regime, the situation has constantly and gradually improved. Today our anthropological and sociological researches show that throughout this whole period the situation has constantly been improving, so we can say that the situation has been completely normalized, i.e. there are no tensions regarding the minorities rights issue. Generally speaking, Bulgaria can proudly declare that it has reached a stage where there are very sincere relations among the ethnical communities. This relaxation of the relations, this balance that now exists between the minorities and the majority nation in Bulgaria, was not progressing very easily and it was realized, above all, thanks to the establishment of the civil community. We are very proud of that. Question: Special efforts were made regarding the Romany minority. It was a difficult assignment that was supported by the international community. Antonina Zeljaskova: Until a year ago, there was a certain tension when it came to the Romany minority. In fact, all the other ethnical groups the Bulgarians, the Turks, and the Pomaks had an extremely negative attitude towards the Romany. It took a lot of effort to change the situation. We can see the first results now. For instance, people in Bulgaria have eventually come to realize that the problems of the Romany not only concern them, but the entire society as well. In the past, and even recently, there was certain repugnance in the public opinion regarding anything that involved supporting or helping the Romany. More specifically, in the field of health, education especially high education, and the other social activities. People have now realized that if the Roma do not get the mentioned support, they go out in the streets and thus problems are caused. It is now obvious that those problems concern us all, so great efforts are made to help this minority. It (the minority) has also been discriminated when it comes to employment, because with their qualifications it is difficult to be involved in programs which aim towards the improvement of the situation and the living conditions. Question: By this, the image of Bulgaria abroad would certainly improve(?) Antonina Zeljaskova: Everybody who is part of the organizaations dealing with this issue, i.e. all of us are very satisfied by the fact that, regarding the change of opinions, there is a strongly accentuated positive attitude, even a certain pressure on the Bulgarian Government that the problem of the minorities should be dealt with widely. In fact, no Government was prepared to benevolently undertake measures in that direction up till now. Earlier we had the impression that we were doing a lot of the work in vain, that we neither had understanding by the Government nor got any help by the state organs. It is a completely different situation now. The authorities themselves initiate preparation and realization of the programs. They come to us to consult us in what ways to increase their efforts regarding the issue of the minorities. Reporter: Listening to Antonina Zeljaskova, one might think that Bulgaria is an oasis of multiethnical peaceful coexistence in the Balkans. And indeed, there is no war. The Bulgarian Turks didnt take Kalashnikov guns in their hands in order to fight for their rights. Undoubtedly, thanks to the awareness of their leader Dogan, whose party now participates in the government. The Romany also have the chance of a gradual improvement of their situation, thanks to the intervention of the International Community. This especially applies to the financial resources that the Community invests for the solution of their problem, which becomes more and more European. However, the situation is not so good. Here is what Krasimir Kenev, the President of the Helsinki Committee in Bulgaria, says. Krasimir Kenev: In my opinion, the situation of the national minorities in Bulgaria is not very good. I would only point out two serious problems. First of all, there is the problem with the Romany, who are de facto excluded from the Bulgarian society because the discrimination towards them is present in all areas. The second serious problem is the one with the Macedonians who have not been recognized by the Bulgarian Government. Not a single public institution recognizes their existence. Nevertheless, the Macedonian minority exists and it is much bigger than what the figures of the official statistics reveal. That minority was also pressured during the census. Only five thousand of them had the courage to declare themselves as Macedonians in the last census. Reporter: Here is the opinion of Ivan Kalcev, a professor at the University of Sofia. Ivan Kalcev: We have a problem in Bulgaria with individuals and groups who are nationalists, that is patriots in the negative sense of the word. There are newspapers in Bulgaria which publish articles against the Turks, as well as against all the others who do not have the orthodox Christian religion. For instance, in those newspapers it is very often written that the Bulgarian citizens who are not orthodox by religion can not be accounted for as Bulgarians. They refer to Rakovski, Marin Drinov or some other leading originators of our renaissance who said that Bulgarian is one who is orthodox. Question: Yes, but that was at the end of the nineteenth century (!?) Ivan Kalcev: Yes, but some people think the same even today. I was very surprised when, five or six years ago, I talked to one of my colleagues, a science professor at the University of Sofia, and I told him that I was catholic; he said: But, my dear colleague, you are not Bulgarian then! Hence, he thinks that the catholics are some sort of a sect, enemies of the orthodox, i.e. that only the orthodox are the true Christians. When speaking of minorities in Bulgaria, only the Turks, the Romany, perhaps the Serbs and some others are considered as such, while the Macedonians are never even mentioned. Never. Even in the sociological studies and all the other research, such as the ones conducted in the Institute that Mrs Zeljaskova runs, the Macedonians are never mentioned. Reporter: In fact, Antonina Zaljaskova avoids talking about it, regarding it as a fallacy problem. In her opinion, the Macedonian minority does not exist because, in the last census, only five thousand people declared themselves as Macedonians. Therefore, she says, she does not understand why the associations, such as the Helsinki Committee or the Human Rights, declare the opposite. (Music) Reporter: During my stay in Bulgaria, I met several people who declared their nationality as Macedonian. Georgi Radulov is a professor at the Geological Faculty in Sofia. Georgi Radulov: I can say that there are a lot of people here in Bulgaria who are Macedonian by origin. But in the last census there was no graph Macedonian in the form. Those five thousand Macedonians who declared as such, had to write down the option Macedonian themselves in order to declare their true nationality. Reporter: Here is the testimony of Konstantin Georgiev, a former philosophy professor at the University of Sofia. Konstantin Georgiev: This census speaks for itself. How can it be possible that, according to the official statistic data, in 1958 there were 180 thousand Macedonians and two years later - there was not a single one?! Any rational human would conclude that the censuses were not objective. As far as the last census from 2001 is concerned, the form did not have the graph Macedonian. Hence, everyone who had the courage to declare as such had to add the graph at the end of the list of nationalities in his own handwriting. It very often happened that the registrars filled in the forms themselves according to their own will. In my opinion, any way you see it, that census was not objective. Reporter: Here is the opinion of Ivan Dragas, linguist. Ivan Dragas: As far as the Macedonians are concerned, the data from the census in 2001 are incorrect, just as they were incorrect in the past. It is true that the form didnt have the graph Macedonian, and the list contained all the other minorities like the Turks, the Romas, the Vlachs, the Gaguzes, the Armenian, the Jewish. The only ones missing were the Macedonians. Those five thousand people who had the courage to declare as Macedonians were the ones who didnt succumb to all the pressure. In my opinion, this problem in Bulgaria will not be solved any time soon. Reporter: Konstantin Georgiev affirms that those who declared as Macedonians had to face negative consequences, both personally and especially professionally. Konstantin Georgiev: Zivkovs communist regime in Bulgaria was acutely nationalistic. Everyone who opposed the official politics had serious problems because the methods were extremely brutal. Today it is different. The one who declares himself as Macedonian will still face certain problems, but in a more subtle way. For instance, if such an individual should want to have a university or a political career he would have very little chance of achieving that. Reporter: The case of Konstantin Georgiev is very illustrative. During the communist regime, he lost his position as a philosophy professor at the University of Sofia because he had been making a study about the Macedonian minority. After the change of the regime, when he applied to continue working on the study, he was told that he was not allowed to do so because he had been teaching Marxism in the communist period. By the way, let us mention that Konstantin Georgiev has specialized in Ethics in Philosophy and that he is Macedonian by origin. Such is the case with Ivan Dragas. Even though he has a Masters Degree in Bulgarian literature and linguistics, it is difficult for him to find employment because he refuses to declare as Bulgarian. Ivan Dragas: We can achieve anything we want in the Bulgarian society but only on one condition never to declare as Macedonians. That is the only problem. One can not declare as Macedonian, but only as Bulgarian. Question: Isnt there a single ethnic Macedonian who has managed to make a career in the politics or in the public administration? Georgi Radulov: There are individuals with Macedonian origin who have even made a political career in Bulgaria but they have declared as Bulgarians. It has always been like that. For instance, even during the Ottoman Empire the one who would declare as a Turk, although he/she wasnt one, could even become a sultan, or solely by declaring that a Christian was a Moslem. There were many cases like this in different provinces in Turkey then. The same thing happened in Bulgaria. If you are Macedonian and you declare to be Bulgarian, you can even have certain advantages. Thats right. (Music) Reporter: Bulgaria is a candidate for membership in the European Union in 2007. I asked my three interlocutors if they expected any improvement of their situation then. Konstantin Georgiev: I think that when Bulgaria becomes a member of the European Union, it will have to comply with the norms of the Union regarding the minorities residing in it, especially the Macedonian minority. Question: What is your opinion, Ivan? Ivan Kalcev: There is only one problem, that is, this problem will have to be solved between us , the Macedonians and the Bulgarians. The Bulgarians will have to understand once and for all that our national identity is very important for us. We will never be an impediment for the integration of the Bulgarians in the European Union. On the contrary, we want to move forward to the European Union along with them. Question: It seems that Georgi Radulov is pessimistic. Georgi Radulov: I have been observing the progress of the situation in Greece. It is a member of the European Union but, when it comes to the Macedonian minority, almost everything has stayed the same as before. I even believe that things could get worse when Bulgaria becomes a member of the European Union. I want to say that the Bulgarian authorities are deliberately creating confusion. They are doing everything to confuse people in Western Europe so that they would not understand the essence of our situation. Reporter: Where does this Bulgarian attitude towards the Macedonian minority originate from when there is no possibility of separatism? For the purpose of understanding this question better which, according to me, seems important not only for the future of Bulgaria and the Balkans but also for the future of the European Union, I suggest that we meet again next week, accompanied by experts from the region. (Music) Part Two April 10, 2004 MINORITIES RIGHTS Bulgarias hidden face Reporter: Good day everyone. Bulgaria has put a lot of effort to resolving the problem of observing the rights of the minorities. This country has about twenty of them. The situation of the Turks and the Romany, minorities biggest in number, is improving. Especially the situation of the Turks, who even participate in the government now. The other minorities, such as the Vlachs, the Jewish, the Pomaks and the Gagauzes, have been treated more tolerantly. The only minority whose rights have not been observed is the Macedonian. This is so only because Bulgaria does not recognize the existence of the Macedonian nation. According to Bulgaria, the Macedonians are Bulgarians. This attitude is not recent. I suggest a brief historical retrospection. Upon arriving on the Balkans, around the seventh century BC, the Macedonian people found themselves on one of the most delicate territories in the region. Having settled in the center of the Balkan Peninsula, the Macedonians happened to set down on the most important crossroad since oldest times. Therefore, it is not strange that Macedonia has become an apple of discord in the Balkans, causing conflicts in the neighboring areas. For centuries, it has been a victim of conspirators dreaming of Great Albania, Great Serbia, Great Greece and Great Bulgaria. There is no doubt that the Bulgarian State was the most persistent one in its conquering desires. It is true that part of the Macedonian territory had been annexed by the Bulgarian Monarchy, but only for several decades, and that happened more than seven centuries ago. This was the historical reality until the moment of creating the Ottoman Empire. As it is known, this Empire gradually imposed its domination on the whole region until the nineteenth century when the Greeks, the Serbs and the Bulgarians fought their way to independence. Only the Macedonians stayed within the territory of the Ottoman Empire until 1912. The obsession for Great Bulgaria is based on the famous San Stefano Agreement from 1887 by which the Russians recompensed the Bulgarians for the support during the war by annexing the territory of Macedonia to Bulgaria. However, several months later the Agreement was annulled at the Berlin Congress and Macedonia was returned to the rule of the Ottomans. The Bulgarians never submitted to this international decision. Convinced that they were rightfully entitled to Macedonia, and only partly satisfied with its dividing after the First Balkan War when the Ottomans were banished from the Balkans, the Bulgarians declare war to their neighbors, the Greeks and the Serbs, in 1913. Moreover, they fought on the side of the Austrians and the Germans during the First and the Second Balkan War because they were both promising them Macedonia. The Bulgarians lost both wars and thus lost their dream of appropriating Macedonia. During the communist period, Bulgaria, then ally of Moscow, had practically no relations with Macedonia which, since 1945, became one of the six Yugoslav federal republics. It is known what happened afterwards. The fall of communism in 1989 could also be felt in Bulgaria. After the fall of Yugoslavia, an independent Macedonian country was established. Bulgaria was the first country that recognized the independence of Macedonia, but still continues to consider that there is neither a Macedonian nation nor a Macedonian language. According to the Bulgarian State, which presents itself as democratic, the Macedonians are Bulgarians and the Macedonian language is only one of the Bulgarian dialects. As far as the Macedonian minority residing in Bulgaria is concerned, it can not even be thought about, let alone mentioned. Reporter: When I was visiting Bulgaria recently to make a series of reports about its preparations for membership in the European Union, I thought that the dream of Great Bulgaria had already been forgotten about. You cant imagine my astonishment when I realized that the idea was still existing deep down in the heart of every average Bulgarian! I cant say how many times I heard the same phrase that almost literally goes like this: Those are the poor Bulgarians that were forced by the communists to declare as Macedonians! The same phrase was even used by Antonina Zaljaskova, manager of the Minority Reasearch Center, who added that many of those poor Bulgarians were mistreated by the communists in the 1950s and forced into declaring as Macedonians. Antonina Zeljaskova: We know that there was this political attitude imposed by the Comintern, according to which part of Bulgaria had been populated by Macedonians so the inhabitants from that region were forced to declare as Macedonians. For instance, my husbands father who comes from that region used to tell me how, when he was in the army, he was threatened to be arrested for declaring as Bulgarian. Therefore, being pressured by the authorities, he had to declare as Macedonian. What I would like to emphasize to my great pleasure is that in Bulgaria there is a great relaxation and a completely clear attitude when it comes to Macedonia and the Macedonians, and that there is no hostility and no nationalistic ambitions of the Bulgarians regarding our neighbor Macedonia. We have very normal relations with this country. (Music) Reporter: In the bookshop of the Bulgarian Academy of Science in Sofia I found a whole division with works about Macedonia, the authors of which were contemporary Bulgarian historians. I was very surprised when realized to what extent this famous Macedonian question, which I believed had long been put aside, still preoccupied the Bulgarian historians. I was under the impression that I was still in the time of the Balkan wars when Serbia and Bulgaria were trying to divide Macedonia into pieces. Among tens of works I didnt see one which was written by a Macedonian historian. Here is how Ivan Kalcev, philosopher and inquirer of the Balkan history, explains this phenomenon. Ivan Kalcev: Almost all Bulgarian historians are concerned patriots. Those are people who do not have the necessary philosophical culture, and neither do they have a universal vision. They are of the opinion that there are no minorities in Bulgaria. Even when they speak of the Macedonian minority that is solely in the context of fierce negation. For me, this is an inexplicable phenomenon. What is more important, this is not only the personal opinion of single-minded historians. This is the official attitude of the Bulgarian Government. I even believe that the recognition of Macedonia as an independent country on the part of Bulgaria was not done because of sincere conviction or intention. The recognition was aimed at making the Macedonians be thankful so that they would feel obliged to compensate by saying that they were closely related to the Bulgarians, that perhaps they were Bulgarians, etc. How is it possible to be accepted in the European Union with an attitude like this? Reporter: Stefan Vlahov is a professor at the University of Sofia and president of the Independent Association of Bulgarian Writers. When I told him about how astonished I was when I saw so many works written by Bulgarian historians who devoted their work to Macedonia, none of which was written by a Macedonian writer, he was not surprised at all. Stefan Vlahov: That is paradoxical only at first glance. You see, when in 1991 the Republic of Macedonia proclaimed its independence, few of us were hoping that there would be exchange of books, scientific literature, newspapers and magazines between Bulgaria and Macedonia, all with the purpose of getting acquainted with each other better. All Bulgarian scientists were against it. On the other hand, I saw many books from Bulgarian authors in Macedonia. It is obvious that the Macedonians are not afraid of opening the borders. The problem is on the Bulgarian side. (Music) Reporter: I noticed a publication with the title Macedonian Review in the same bookshop. At first I thought it was a Macedonian publication because I read that the publisher was the Macedonian Institute of Science. You cant imagine how surprised I was when I saw that the main office of that Institute was in Sofia, Bulgaria! How is it possible for a Macedonian institute to be located in Sofia?! But, even in this case, professor Vlahov was not surprised again. Stefan Vlahov: There is nothing surprising about it if you are familiar with Bulgarian nationalism well. There is nothing new here. You see, when the Macedonians founded their revolutionary organization in 1895 in order to free themselves from the Ottoman bondage, Bulgaria created a similar organization with the same name VMRO, with the purpose of presenting the Macedonians as Bulgarians. The same thing happened again about ten years ago when Macedonia proclaimed its independence. The Macedonians founded the political party VMRO then in the honor of their revolutionary past. The Bulgarian nationalists immediately established a party by the same name. Their only purpose is to ruin, to poison the ambience between the two neighboring nations. If it werent sad, it would be really funny. How can the existence of a nation be negated, a nation that proclaimed its independence on September 8, 1991?! Its really funny! (Music) Question: I wonder how, with such nationalistic ideas spread all over the country, the Bulgarians can imagine they are ready to join the European Union?! Stefan Vlahov: That is a problem indeed. You see, if the Bulgarian authorities are dealing with the rights of the Romany nowadays, it is because there is a great deal of pressure by the European Union. The Turkish minority is so numerous that it can defend its rights by itself. It is even represented by its members in the Parliament and their political party is part of the government coalition. To be more specific, the Bulgarians recognize the rights of the minorities only when being pressured. They do not show maturity. Im sure that one day they will be made to recognize the rights of the Macedonian minority residing in Bulgaria as well. However, it is difficult to believe that pressure had to be used so that the rights of the Turks be recognized, and again pressure for the rights of the Romany minority.always pressure! All that causes an air of displeasure in the relations between the Bulgarians on one hand, and the Turks, the Romany and the Macedonians, on the other hand. I dont think that the Bulgarians will be part of the European home yet. (Music) Reporter: Does the dream of Great Bulgaria still exist? Antonina Zaljaskova is categorical. Antonina Zeljaskova: No, theres no such thing in Bulgaria any more. I think that the Bulgarians have grown maturer in the last ten-fifteen years. Generally speaking, it is completely impossible for Bulgarians to generate such nationalistic illusions now. The Bulgarians have lost 200 to 300 thousand people in the battlefields in the name of that unattainable dream called the San Stefano Bulgaria. The Bulgarians have certainly learned the lesson by seeing in what way, from a position of nationalism, former Yugoslavia was brought to a complete disintegration. The Bulgarians have realized that excessive pretension towards foreign territories may bring to national tragedy, as it was the case with the Serbs. Reporter: Professor Kalcev does not feel the same. Ivan Kalcev: Officially, people in Bulgaria are against that dream of Great Bulgaria. However, the dream still exists. I think that even nowadays, the educational process in the primary schools still holds on to that line of ideals about Great Bulgaria. For instance, in the schools in Bulgaria students are often taught that Bulgaria neighbors itself. This is done for the purpose of letting it be known that significant Bulgarian minority lives in all the Balkan states, so perhaps Bulgaria has a reason for territorial pretension towards all neighboring countries. Question: We all know what happened to Serbia when Mr Milosevic wanted to unite all Serbs in one country; Mr Tudzman had the same dream for Croatia; the Albanians do not even hide their pretension today. If the Bulgarians take that road also, where shall we be? Ivan Kalcev: I think it is very dangerous if Bulgaria stays in that position of tutorship in relation to Macedonia. Im convinced that it is a very suspenseful position. Reporter: According to Stefan Vlahov, it is time to stop with the manipulations about the Bulgarian history. Stefan Vlahov: Unfortunately, that dream hasnt ceased to exist. In order to explain this, I can enumerate both subjective and objective reasons, which often arouse them. Lets take the textbooks, for instance. There is an initiative to write textbooks that will be valid for all Balkan states. But here in the Ministry of Education, those textbooks written by Bulgarian, Turkish, Macedonian and Greek historians are kept locked and no one can see what is written in them. Hence, manipulations here never come to an end. In relation to this, I dont see any difference from the communist period, because all nationalistic cliches of lies still exist. I can say this as an expert in Balkan history. On the other hand, it is a proof of complete absence of tolerance towards our different way of thinking. This attitude should be revised and corrected in order to give a more realistic image of the Bulgarian history. It is unacceptable to continue the manipulation with the science, on the basis of the cliches from the period of romanticism. We are living in the twenty-first century and we still reflect as if in the nineteenth. Reporter: All in all, the reasons for such attitude of the Bulgarians toward the Macedonians are becoming more and more obvious, even though the Bulgarians use hypocritical language when communicating with the International Community. Here is what Krasimir Kenev, president of the Helsinki Committee in Bulgaria says. Krasimir Kenev: The reasons are numerous. The first one is that according to the conviction of the Bulgarians, Macedonians are Bulgarians, and not only those who live in Bulgaria but also the ones in the Republic of Macedonia. The second reason is the very wide propaganda against the Macedonian national identity, history and culture. This propaganda is extremely influential, and it is especially conveyed through historians and journalists. This tendency is present in almost the whole Bulgarian society. Even if government officials had the desire to suppress it, they would never do so because it would mean losing votes on the elections. Question: What are your potentials to fight against this type of propaganda as an international organization for human rights? Krasimir Kenev: We defend the right of the Macedonians to have their national identity recognized every time we have the opportunity. We do that with different Bulgarian and international institutions. For instance, we filed an appeal against the Bulgarian state to the Human Rights Court in Strassbourg because it refused to register the organization of the Macedonian minority OMO Ilinden. The Macedonians are the only minority in Bulgaria that doesnt have the right to establish their own association or to initiate publishing newspapers. There is one newspaper that is published in Blagoevgrad, both in Macedonian and in Bulgarian language at the same time. The authorities tolerate this. However, this still doesnt mean allowing the Macedonians to have schools in their language. On the other hand, the Turks, the Armenians and the Jewish have their schools. Reporter: We will bring this program to its end by talking to a young linguist from Macedonian origin. That is Ivan Dragas. Ivan Dragash: Im a young person and I dont mind living in Bulgaria. What I want is not to be hindered in being what I am. I dont want anyone to tell me who I am, what I am and what I live for. I do not ask for anything else from Bulgaria, except to be a citizen equal to other citizens in it. Question: Isnt there any way out, cant you appeal somewhere, dont you have the right to do that in this country? Ivan Dragash: What rights are we talking about? We have all the rights except the right to be Macedonians. That is the problem. (Music) Reporter: The Commission of the European Parliament dealing with the fight against racism and intolerance has addressed a note to Bulgaria to undertake measures for observing the rights of the Macedonians. This Commission, I quote is concerned about the discrimination and the intolerance on the part of the government and the majority population against those who openly declare as Macedonians. It requested from Sofia to establish a dialogue with representatives of the Macedonian minority, to find a solution for the tenseness. The Commission in Strassbourg recommended Sofia to educate people who would be engaged in the domain of observing human rights; to become one of the signatories of the European Convention for respecting the languages of the minorities and to allow them to establish their own associations. (Music) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako
no name: TOA KOI GO NAPISHAL? JAS ZA NIKAKVI PRAVA NE MOZAM DA PROCHITAM TUKU CHITAM DEKA CIGANITE I TURCITE SE BALGARI, ZAR NE? -------------------------------------------------------------- pa bea do skoro,do pred nekoja godina...i toa e fakt.dobro e sto ima napredok kaj vas vo toj pogled,zasto bevte tunguzija vo opgled na malcinski prava,a po se izgleda se uste ste.
Koga sa bili ciganite - balgari? NE GOVORIM ZA PRAVA! Aide dosta so prava - prava ciganite NEMAAT i nikogash nemale, ama KOGA ciganite bili balgari?
noname
quote:
Originally posted by noname
[quote]Originally posted by angomako
no name: TOA KOI GO NAPISHAL? JAS ZA NIKAKVI PRAVA NE MOZAM DA PROCHITAM TUKU CHITAM DEKA CIGANITE I TURCITE SE BALGARI, ZAR NE? -------------------------------------------------------------- pa bea do skoro,do pred nekoja godina...i toa e fakt.dobro e sto ima napredok kaj vas vo toj pogled,zasto bevte tunguzija vo opgled na malcinski prava,a po se izgleda se uste ste.
Moze da mi odgovorish neshto? Dali ako primerno X nema prava toa znachi deka X = Y? Ili oste po-lesno - da te prasham bideiki evreite vo Germanija ot 1933 g. do 1945 g. nemale prava DALI toa znachi deka vo periodot 1933 g. - 1945 g. evreite vo Germanija bili nemci? Samo toa otgovori - moze i so "da" i "ne".
angomako noname: Koga sa bili ciganite - balgari? NE GOVORIM ZA PRAVA! Aide dosta so prava - prava ciganite NEMAAT i nikogash nemale, ama KOGA ciganite bili balgari? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- po ustavot vo bugarija pred 10godini,imalo li nekakvi malcinstva vo bugarija voopsto???site bea PO USTAV bugari.za toa zboram.ne vikam deka vie ste gi prifakjale kako takvi.vie ste si rasisti i nacisti,isto kako i grcite.pogledni samo sto im se slucuva na studentite crnci SEKOJ DEN vo bugarija.evropa toa go znae,ama so da prais. toa so evreite e drug muabet i pogresen primer. vo balkansite drzavi kako grcija i bugarija,ako x nemal malcinski prava,toa go pravelo po avtomatizam y.taka da,tuka odgovorot e so da. primer: vo grcija makedoncite (X)nemaat malcinski prava,i toa gi pravi Y(grci)...znaci,X nema prava,i soodvetno,X=Y. vo bugarija,za vreme na komunizmot,turcite-X(ili koj sakas vekje,aj da ne gi spomnuvam pak romite) nemaa malcinski prava,i toa gi pravese bugari,odnosno Y,po tvojata brilijantna ravenka. inaku,bravo,mislam deka samo sto vospostavivme matematicka ravenka za malcinskite prava. razocaran sum koga kje vidam tipcinja ocigledno inteligentni kako tebe,kako go uprostuvaat procesot na nacionalna geneza. samiot termin nacija evoluira postojano...pred 1000godini bugarin ne e isto so bugarin pred 1500godini,a bugarin od pred 1000godini ne e isto so bugarin od pred 50godini,i denes,bugarin e isto taka vekje druga rabota.isto i so grk,makedonec,itn...zasto strav od makedonizmot? mislis deka na makedonizmot bez bugarizmot mu fali nesto? veruvaj,ne mu fali nisto!sosema e kulturoloski,ekonomski i sekako nezavisen od bugarizmot,avtohton i avtenticen.nema potreba za strav od makedonizmot,be batka!prifati go,a koga kje go prifatis,bilo kakva interpretacija na istorijata ne kje bide nisto po neobicna od interpretacijata na minatoto na bilo koja moderna balkanska drzava. vidi ja grcija.od turci napravija anticki makedonci.so te nema na tie forumi da im dokazuivas na tie grci koi se i so se?so si se fatil tuka so nas?ocigledno e deka imas ili nekakva agenda,ili samiot so sebe imas problem da go prifatis celosno postoenjeto na lugje sto se cuvstvuvaat denes kako makedonci...bilo vo r makedonija ili bugarija. zosto e toa taka?nema tuka nisto strasno,prifati go toa,pak kje bideme dobri sosedi i brakja.vsusnost,tek togas kje staneme vistinski sosedi i brakja! pozdrav,
noname
quote:
Originally posted by angomako
noname: Koga sa bili ciganite - balgari? NE GOVORIM ZA PRAVA! Aide dosta so prava - prava ciganite NEMAAT i nikogash nemale, ama KOGA ciganite bili balgari? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- po ustavot vo bugarija pred 10godini,imalo li nekakvi malcinstva vo bugarija voopsto???site bea PO USTAV bugari.za toa zboram.ne vikam deka vie ste gi prifakjale kako takvi.vie ste si rasisti i nacisti,isto kako i grcite.pogledni samo sto im se slucuva na studentite crnci SEKOJ DEN vo bugarija.evropa toa go znae,ama so da prais. toa so evreite e drug muabet i pogresen primer. vo balkansite drzavi kako grcija i bugarija,ako x nemal malcinski prava,toa go pravelo po avtomatizam y.taka da,tuka odgovorot e so da. primer: vo grcija makedoncite (X)nemaat malcinski prava,i toa gi pravi Y(grci)...znaci,X nema prava,i soodvetno,X=Y. vo bugarija,za vreme na komunizmot,turcite-X(ili koj sakas vekje,aj da ne gi spomnuvam pak romite) nemaa malcinski prava,i toa gi pravese bugari,odnosno Y,po tvojata brilijantna ravenka. inaku,bravo,mislam deka samo sto vospostavivme matematicka ravenka za malcinskite prava. razocaran sum koga kje vidam tipcinja ocigledno inteligentni kako tebe,kako go uprostuvaat procesot na nacionalna geneza. samiot termin nacija evoluira postojano...pred 1000godini bugarin ne e isto so bugarin pred 1500godini,a bugarin od pred 1000godini ne e isto so bugarin od pred 50godini,i denes,bugarin e isto taka vekje druga rabota.isto i so grk,makedonec,itn...zasto strav od makedonizmot? mislis deka na makedonizmot bez bugarizmot mu fali nesto? veruvaj,ne mu fali nisto!sosema e kulturoloski,ekonomski i sekako nezavisen od bugarizmot,avtohton i avtenticen.nema potreba za strav od makedonizmot,be batka!prifati go,a koga kje go prifatis,bilo kakva interpretacija na istorijata ne kje bide nisto po neobicna od interpretacijata na minatoto na bilo koja moderna balkanska drzava. vidi ja grcija.od turci napravija anticki makedonci.so te nema na tie forumi da im dokazuivas na tie grci koi se i so se?so si se fatil tuka so nas?ocigledno e deka imas ili nekakva agenda,ili samiot so sebe imas problem da go prifatis celosno postoenjeto na lugje sto se cuvstvuvaat denes kako makedonci...bilo vo r makedonija ili bugarija. zosto e toa taka?nema tuka nisto strasno,prifati go toa,pak kje bideme dobri sosedi i brakja.vsusnost,tek togas kje staneme vistinski sosedi i brakja! pozdrav,
AAAAAAA - po ustav? Go izplju kamencheto nai-posle? I zashto trebvashe tolko vreme za da go kazesh vo prav tekst? Ne smeeshe? Ne znaeshe? ne mozeshe? Vidi - i sega, i predi 10 g. i predi 110 g. - nashiot ustav e definitevno jasen vo odnos na edno - "Balgarija e drzava na balgarskata nacija." Tolku! Na NIKOJA druga NACIJA. T.e. - toa NE znachi deka nema pripadnici na drugi nacii vo BG, no tie ne mozat da imat pretencii kon BG. Nashiot ustav NE SE zanimava so malcinstva, so etnosi-metnosi i dr. podobni.. Vo DRUGI zakonovi i podzakonovi normi BG reglamentira POSTOENJETO na razlichni ETNICHESKI MALCINSTVA. Ciganite spored oficialnata statistika: - ot 1946 g. - 170 011; - ot 1956 g. - 197 865; - ot 1957 g. - 232 445; - ot 1965 g. - 148 874; - ot 1992 g. - 313 396; - ot 2001 g. - 317 908. 55% ot ciganite se pravoslavni; 25% - musulmani; ostanalite - protestanti. Za drugata glupost - deka turcite(ciganite) posto nemali prava - toa gi pravelo AVTOMATCHNO balgari - da komentiram li? Koe gi praveshe balgari? Toa deka nemashe NITO eden turchin - ministar? Deputat? Direktor? Studenti dori imashe redko turci......Za ciganite dane zboram? Toa li gi praveshe "avtomatichno" balgari? TOA li e spored tebe da bidesh balgarin - da ne mozesh dori da se zapishesh da uchish? I po koja logika? Deka vo ustavot pishuva sto BG e drzava SAMO na balgarskata nacija? Pa PRAVILNO pishuva! Cigani, turci-murci NE i pripagjat na nashata nacija, znachi tie se vo BG samo NA GOSTI. Za drugata glupost - toa sto balgarite sega bili razlichni ot balgarite vchera ili predi 50 godini ili predi 100 ili predi 1000 g. mozam da komentiram samo so ....smeh:))))) Eve zasho: 1. Toa e proizvolno i nedokazano; 2. Mnogo silen interes ot vakvo tvrdenie imaat SAMO luge so silni somnezi vo svojata nacionalna identifikacija (zashto li?:)))) 3. Balgarija ima (vo sporedba so drugite) PREDOVOLNO dobro dokumentirana istorija i istoriografija kade sto detailno i eksplicitno se eksponirani i preeksponirani nashite dedovci, pradedovci, babi i prababi. Sekoi moze da prochita tehnite sobstveni misli, chuvstva, idei, maki, zelbi i DORI (za razlika ot drugi narodi) nie mozeme da gi vidime kako izgledali...(ela mi na gosti - ke ti pokazam Bojana i slikata na Desislava - moze dori da se vljubish:)) ...Pa ti vidi sea...
Divider Ako noname e bolgarin a site bolgari se tatari togas noname e tatarin!! Ako site bolgari sakaat da stanat makedonci noname e bolgarin noname saka da stane makedonec (ama nema) Ako neboto e sino a site bolgari se tatari, a ciganite se bolgari togas i da ne e neboto sino, pak se bolgarite glupi tatari i wannabe makedonci!!
angomako noname e mlado momce:)
nashenec http://dobrudja.cjb.net/