| The Macedonian issue |
| msirivia |
Hi Macedones,
First of all I'd like to introduce myself.
I am Greek and have a passion for politics and especially foreign affairs issues. I consider myself very open-minded, and ready to engage in constructive, civilized dialogue. I believe in the power of conversation and I think that fair and viable agreements come only through compromise.
Obviously, the issue here is the name of Macedonia.
Early on in this dispute, I was one of the few Greeks who supported accepting a name that would include "Macedonia" and at the same time remove any ties from the former yugoslavia. Every nation has the right of self-determination and since the residents of your country do not consider themselves Slavic, you are right to wish cancelling any relation with nations that most likely have kept you under occupation in the past.
So, in my understanding, due to the geographical position of your newly born state and the glorious history of Macedonia you rightfully decided to call yourselves Macedones. I am more than happy to call you Macedones, but there is some things that we have to take into consideration.
a)Macedonia is a geographical area that extends south to Greece and Eastern to Bulgaria. Actually the Macedonian part of Greece is named Macedonia too, as one of Greece's geographical divisions.
b)The residents of Greek Macedonia call themselves Macedonians too.
Although, it cannot be accurately claimed for anyone in the balkans they consider themselves descentants of ancient Macedonians and they are proud of Alexander TG and its achievements. They treasure the ancient findings (ruins) of Vergina, the capital of ancient Macedonia, and feel a strong connection with their glorious past. As is the case with most of you.
c) There are numerous historical facts that proove the strong connections of the ancient Macedonians with Greek culture.
The only written language that has been found in ancient macedonian scriptures and engravings was a variation of greek. Alexander's most prominent teacher was Aristotle.
Alexander's actual name as written in ancient scriptures was "Alexandros" and his father's "Philippos", which are the exact names modern greeks use to name their children.
Alexander was perhaps the most significant propagator of Greek culture. Thereby, the name of the whole historical period "Hellenistic" that describes the times between Alexander conguests and the roman empire. (Check this obviously neutral link if you don'y believe me, one of the first to come up with google seach with this keyword, http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_hellenistic.html)
He spread Greek culture (language, architecture, olympian religion, literature etc) to most of the eastern known world and the proof of that is everywhere from Egypt to Iran.
e)In my belief ancient Macedonia was as Greek as ancient Sparta. Note however that in the ancient times Hellenic city-states were not unified and engaged in disasterous wars very often. However, they all shared similar cultural elements and when they had to form alliances to face common enemies they did so.
d) The fact that ancient macedonia was in the broad sense Greek-influenced does not allow me to claim that all Macedonia is now Greek. If I were to claim that, then I could claim that Athens is Turkish because it had been under the Ottoman rule for 400 hundrend years. I am not obsessed with history and I believe that all us in the Balkans should respect the current borders and respect the right of independance and self determination of every nation.
All the Balkan nations have bravely fought for their freedom and to acquire vital geographical space. At some point many nations occupied more land than they do now. Who used to occupy what at any point in the past, is not the issue here. The prerequisite for peace now is that all nations accept their current status and start cooperating for progress and economic well-being, exactly the same way europe did 50+ years ago.
In that context, I strongly disagree with any Albanian demands for autonomy against your country, as well as the independance of Kosovo.
Minorities should not have the right to claims independance but should have the right to be treated as equals among the citizens of their countries.
e) I consider it very likely that your nation has evolved from a combination of Ancient Macedonian elements as well as slavic and why not Ottoman or Albanian or Greek. Before you hate me for this, I would like to say that this is the case for my nation too. We definetely have cultural influences from Ottoman, Slaves and who knows who else even Arabs. Many of the tribes that are now considered to be Greek, at some point, thousands of years ago, did not consider themselves Greek. Such were Thraceans and ancient Macedonians. All these tribes though, did share common hellenistic cultural elements. A representative correspondance with modern times is how we view ourselves more as Greeks, Germans, French etc than we view ourselves as Europeans. This could possibly change in the future. That is a normal process in the evolution of nations. We happen to maintain a big portion of our Ancient Greek heritage (language, customs mainly) and we call ourselves Greeks.
Our religion, which is exactly the same as yours, also defines us as a nation although it is not the religion of Periklis and Aristotle (I bet these guys where smart enough not to believe in this crap :) ).
Note: With the above, i enter a very complexed but interesting field of historical research, the creation of nations, which is way beyond what my knowledge of history and sociology allows me to analyse.
Therefore, i respect your wish to define yourselves as Macedonians but keep in mind the above mentioned summarized historical facts. These facts do nothing but to proove that Macedonians in your country are not the only ones who can claim relation with the glorious ancient macedonia, especially considering the fact that the Greek Macedonians speak a language that is closer to the one used by Alexander. Again they are as Macedonians as you guys.
f) The conclusion is that during the course of history the Macedonians have been integrated into two (and perhaps more) different modern nations. This claim does not in any way cancel your national identity which is a proud and honorable one, acquired through struggle and bloodshed, through a nation building process which lasted for thousands of years. What this conclusion does is to introduce to you some of our sensitivities regarding the issue of your country's name.
g)Due to the long tradition of Balkan nations in expressing territorial demands on their neighbors, the fact that you insist on giving your country the name of a region that covers more than your country's area and extends to the north of our country, can do nothing but cause unease to Greeks. In addition, the fact that most of you claim that you are the only rightful heirs of the ancient macedonia heritage is a direct insult on our history and traditions.
In other words, we view your country's name as an act of aggression against the integrity of our nation. Allowing you to call yourselves the only Macedonian's and calling your country Macedonia implies that the rest of Macedonia is nothing but an occupied by non-Macedonians area. This consequently could give you the historical justification to claim for example that Salonica is "Macedonian". We, as most of the nations in our region, are very sensitive regarding these issues.
h)There is no doubt that the only viable future for Balkans is a future of cooperation and peace. We should never permit anyone to destabilize our region, since we have all closely witnessed what extreme nationalism and war can bring upon our people.
I expect that after the recent developments my country will propose a name that includes the term Macedonia but also implies geographical definitions. In my humble opinion the name "Republic of Northern Macedonia" (RNC) would be ideal. I don't think that Greece would be able to accept anything less than that. From what I have mentioned above, you can easily guess what the reaction of my country be if RNC does not accept such a compromise. We will and should view it as a direct attack against our country's territorial integrity and cultural heritage and we will pose as many obstacles as we can in your path toward E.U. It is clear by now that cooperation is in both our countries interest, and it is more clear that RNC needs Greece and its investments more than Greece needs RNC. However, we do need you a lot as our neighbors and business partners. We do need to establish honest friendly relations with your nation and eventually become allies under a united Europe that values diversity, cooperation and progress.
Respectfully,
Michael Sirivianos |
| msirivia |
This specific word "patria" happens to come from Greek "patir" which means father. There is a latin word patria but this word is derived from Greek.
as a proof take the origin of patriarch:
"Middle English patriarche, from Old French, from Late Latin patriarcha, from Greek patriarkhs : patri, lineage (from patr, patr-, father. See pter- in Indo-European Roots) + -arkhs, -arch.] |
| Great_Macedonian |
This is what one of america's major newspapers (chicagotribune.com) wrote about the movie 'Alexander'.
(Stone uses Farrell and other Irish and British actors to quickly convey the class division between the rougher-hewn Macedonians and the more cosmopolitan Greeks.) file:///C:/MACEDONIA/mmx-041123-movies-review-mw-alexander.story.htm
If macedonians were greeks, why do so many sources make a distinction, not between macedonians and athenians, macedonians and spartians... but between macedonians and greeks? Macedonians were never greek and never will be!
Even those sources which like to deny the macedonians their identity by referring to them as "macedonian slavs" cannot help but state that todays macedonians have ancient macedonian genes in them;
'The Macedonian Slavs are an ethnic group which inhabits the wider Macedonian region and speaks the Macedonian language. They are generally associated with the Macedonian Orthodox Church and are said to be the descendents of ancient Macedonian, Thracian, Illyrian, and Slavic tribes.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Slavs
Although wikipedia try's to degrade the macedonians by calling them "macedonian slavs" and in another sentence even states that todays macedonians dont have the soul right to be the 'macedonians' of macedonia... it however CONTRADICTS itself by stating that todays macedonians are descendents of the ancient macedonians!! and also mixed with the thracian, illirian?? and slavic tribes. Regardless of who mixed with the macedonians, the important facts that wikipedia itself implies is that todays macedonians are the descendants of the ancient macedonians.
I have another fact for you greeks who are so interested in proof for everything we macedonians tell you. read this;
"Many Greeks clearly did not regard the Macedonians as Greek, at least initially. Greek writers and orators often spoke of the Greeks and Macedonians being two distinct peoples whose relationship was one of antipathy, if not outright hostility. The Greeks were not above insulting each other, but there seems to have been widespread and long-lasting agreement that the Macedonians were non-Greek "foreigners" and "barbarians" ("barbarians" being the Greek word for "foreigner"). The Greek orators Demosthenes and Isocrates both denounced the Macedonians, with Demosthenes dismissing Philip II as being "not only not a Greek nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from a land worth mentioning; no, he's a pestilence from Macedonia, a region where you can't even buy a slave worth his salt." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians
Regarding the 'Battle of Chaeronea', here is another interesting proof of ethnic difference between macedonians and greeks;
'The famous Athenian orator, Demosthenes, tried to rouse his city to action. In a series of speeches that are still models of rhetoric, he warned the Greeks against the danger from the north. Even today, you might here a political speech referred to as a philippic, for this word has come to mean any speech warning of dire danger. By the time Philip was viewed as a real threat, however, it was really too late. The Greeks united and fought Philip, Spartans fighting alongside Thebans and Athenians at Chaeronea in 338. It was a hard-fought battle, but the Macedonians were completely successful.' http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/alexander/02.shtml
greeks united? to fight philip? why??? hrmmm.. spartans fighting alongside thebans and athenians, united greeks, but the MACEDONIANS STILL WON.
Need anymore proof?.. if you do then go and read other forums on this website with proof on the macedonian identity.
Froso, Alexander spoke greek with he's soldiers, because it was a universal language which all of he's soldiers could understand, since about 25% of he's soldiers could not understand ancient macedonian. I also have proof for this but i really dont have time to search for the source, i think ive given you more then enough information for you greeks to stop denying the macedonian identity. However im aware that you will never stop, because your greek government has brain washed you for so long that even when you read the truth about the macedonians you cannot bring yourselves to accept it.
The macedonian issue shouldnt have to have anything to do with Alexander. Alexander's father was macedonian, he's mother was greek, but he was King of Macedonia. Bottom line is that Macedonians and greeks have the right to worship him. But Greece cannot deny that today's macedonians are Alexander's descendants.
|
| Great_Macedonian |
This is what one of america's major newspapers (chicagotribune.com) wrote about the movie 'Alexander'.
(Stone uses Farrell and other Irish and British actors to quickly convey the class division between the rougher-hewn Macedonians and the more cosmopolitan Greeks.)
For the link to this statement goto http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/movies/mmx-041123-movies-review-mw-alexander.story |
| vulgaren |
Greeks cry because USA recognized Macedonia!!!
[:D][:D][:D] |
| dejan |
froso....can you tell me when Greece began calling northern Greece, Macedonia? If you're young, ask any relatives that lived during the 80's and during the period of the break up of Yugoslavia. Also ask them what it said at Thessaloniki airport some years before Macedonia left Yugoslavia, then ask them what it had after Macedonia left Yugoslavia. You should see a change. |
| Misirkov |
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"...you still haven't given me any proof. Empty words only..."
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"... [Philip II was] not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave." (Third Philippic, pg. 31)
Now appologize or get the Hell out of our forum!
P.S. Interesting, the only admiration of the ABSURD Greek thesis is shown, unsurprisingly, by the Bulgar-Tatar with an even more "interesting" nick "noname".
P.P.S. Greece until 1980ies did not use the term Macedonia. Indeed, frm the time that the Macedonian king Phillip II enslaved the Greeks, they got independence only in 1821. Talking about lost in the universe.
|
| dejan |
misirkov, i've seen a quote very similar to that one in a book, as far as i know, it was given by Demosthenes and i remember that it went like this 'Philip is no Greek, he is a wretch barbarian from Macedonia...' it was something similar like that.... |
| Kareotis |
[img]http://truth.macedonia.gr/images/stele_large.jpg[/img]
[img]http://truth.macedonia.gr/images/tetradrachm_large.jpg[/img]
[img]http://truth.macedonia.gr/images/statuebase_large.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/coins/3/macedoniaB.JPG[/img]
[img]http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/214/211/21116/21116ek/00/ofilipb1.jpg[/img]
Can you read the inscriptions? |
| Strelec |
quote:
Originally posted by Kareotis
Can you read the inscriptions?
Nope!
|
| DJ_SHEMA |
Michael
Welcome. I hope you will live up to your statement of open mindedness and remain of this forum with constructive contributions. Word of an advise, be cautious in some of your statements an make sure not to offend us. Insulting our existence, nation, language will lead to banning. We are Macedonians, and have been for thousands of years. Statements that we are MAcedones is insulting. Consider yourself warned.
This type of topics are usually discussed in the history forum, but since this is a current issue at the moment we will let it in this forum.
Now, on to your topic. How come Macedonians were described as disgraceful barbaric tribe by the greeks? No, they did not speak the same language with the greeks because Alexander was said to be fluent speaking greek. Why would that be said if the Macedonians spoke the same language as the greeks? Why did Filip divorce Olimpia? Was the fact that she was greek and the criticism he got from his friends in regard to her nationality too much because she wasn't a Macedonian?
Why would one nation conquer another if they are same? Meaning, why did Macedonians conquer the Greek cities and use their soldiers to conquer the rest of the world? For example, why would the residents of Atina now conquer the citizens of Solun?
Let us hear some answers on these questions and then we can go from here. Again, please be considerate and not insulting.
|
| mafisKumA |
quote:
Originally posted by msirivia
I expect that after the recent developments my country will propose a name that includes the term Macedonia but also implies geographical definitions. In my humble opinion the name "Republic of Northern Macedonia" (RNC) would be ideal. I don't think that Greece would be able to accept anything less than that. From what I have mentioned above, you can easily guess what the reaction of my country be if RNC does not accept such a compromise. We will and should view it as a direct attack against our country's territorial integrity and cultural heritage and we will pose as many obstacles as we can in your path toward E.U. It is clear by now that cooperation is in both our countries interest, and it is more clear that RNC needs Greece and its investments more than Greece needs RNC. However, we do need you a lot as our neighbors and business partners. We do need to establish honest friendly relations with your nation and eventually become allies under a united Europe that values diversity, cooperation and progress.
Respectfully,
Michael Sirivianos
Michael first and foremost welcome to the Macedonian Forum
I note that it is of your own volition that you have taken it upon yourself to refer to our country as "Republic of Northern Macedonia".
You have no authority to do so therefore I request that you cease to use such terminology.
Question:- Why should WE have to compromise?
|
| msirivia |
Hi again Macedonians,
I am sorry if I insulted you. I thought that Macedones is a synonym of Macedonians...I have no problem referring to you as Macedonians.
As for my right to call your country republic of Macedonia, would you rather me calling it FYROM as is your official UN name? Until your country gets a universally accepted name I will refer to it as I judge to be correct.
At no point I said that Macedonians have always been as Greek as Atheneans or Spartans were. Greek at that time was used in a similar way we use the term European nowadays. Turkey is not in Europe geographically but may as well considered European upon admittance in E.U. Until then many europeans refer to Turkish as non-Europeans and in many cases in an insulting way. Similarly Israelis may claim they are Europeans since they share this culture.
It is true that early on Atheneans and other Greek state-nations considered Macedonians barbarian's simply because for very long time they didn't reach the civilization levels of Southern Greek tribes and those of Minor Asia. This started to change dramatically under the rule of Philippos. And during the years of Alexander the Great Alexander was proud to consider himself Greek, spreading Hellenic (=Greek) culture all over the world. I hope everyone is aware of this side of Alexander's contribution, hellenizing the mediterranean.
(Btw you will never find any ancient document refering to Filippos or Alexandros with a name other than those except of course if it is in Egyptian or Persian...How do you call Alexander in your language?)
What language did Macedonians speak my friends? Isn't it true that all the scripts and engravings ever found in Macedonia were variations of Greek?
Did you ever bother travelling to Vergina to see the ruins of your ancient capital? Why don't you simply refer to official history books from independent scholars, neither Greeks or northern macedonians for this purpose. Also isn't it true that your language is very close to Slavic? Of course this is expected since you've been a part of Yugoslavia for so long, but are you claiming that Alexander spoke Slavic? I hope that everyone is aware of the time that Slavic nations descendent to Balkans and this by no means coincides with the times of Ancient Macedonia.
Please note however, that by no means I claim you are Slaves.
I am just noting that my language is closer to the ancient language that Macedonians spoke. Again this does not mean that I may be more of a macedone than you. It just means that throughout the evolution of our nations, my nation just happened to speak a mixture mainly influenced by Ancient Greek and your nation a linguistic mixture mostly influenced by Slavic, and definetely influenced by Greek-based and other local dialects.
I would be glad to be referred to scientific papers that document the origin of your language and claim that this language is the Ancient Macedonian one and there is no other language closer to the one spoken back then. Please make sure that these papers do not originate from the "University of Macedonia" and are credible.
One of your favorite scholars Eugene Borza has claimed the following
(Taken from macedonia.org web site):
"Thus, long before there was a sufficient ancient evidence to argue about the ethnic identity--as revealed by language--of the ancient Macedonians, there emerged a "Greek" position claiming that the Macedonian language was Greek, and that thus the inhabitants were Greek."
The modern Greeks have therefore, developed a position that the Macedonians were Greek, even though there was not enough evidence long before. The "Greek" position although prematurely established, had not however changed yet, despite the overwhelming evidence available today, which will be presented below.
Borza continues: "For example, recent work describes the funerary stelae found in the tumulus covering the royal tombs at Vergina. These stelae date from the fourth and early third centuries, and the preponderance of names are Greek". "The excavator of Vergina, Manolis Andronikos, in a useful summary of the epigraphic evidence, writes: "In the most unambivalent way this evidence confirms the opinion of those historians who maintain that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe, like all the others who lived on Greek territory, and shows that the theory that they were of Illyrian or Thracian descent and were hellenized by Philip and Alexander rests on no objective criteria." Manolis Andronikos Vergina:The Royal Tombs, 83-85."
Here is Borza’s answer to Andronikos: "This argument is true enough only as far as it goes. It neglects that the hellenization of the Macedonians might have occurred earlier then the age of Philip and Alexander, and can not therefore serve as a means of proving the Macedonians were a Greek tribe."
MY COMMENT: He correctly states that it is hard to define ethnicity at that times. But he does mention Andronikos discovery which is a proof that Macedonians had been hellenized. If a tribe that has accepted using Greek in its tombs 2300 years ago is not considered hellenic, then who is considered hellenic Nations with far most short-lived history base their national identity's in defining events and facts that occured a lot later than 2000 years ago.
The same professor states the following:
9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence."
[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."
He is therefore ignoring Thukidides, and Herodotous, the two most significant ancient greek historians. The first was considered to be the first scientist historian and the second the father of History. For this mr Borza these ancient references are not considered enough evidence. However he does not base any of his conclusions on more solid facts arbitrary interpretations of ancient historians' scripts. Perhaps this guy doubts that Persian wars ever happened and why that the battle of Marathon ever took place!
END MY COMMENT
Besides macedonia.org, you could check this site for more accurate, in my opinion, historical bibliography.
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/alexbibl.html
To give a lighter tone to the discussion, the fact that Macedonia was a part of Greece has even inspired modern music:
The song of Iron Maiden, written some time before Yugoslavia was broken apart sais it all:
"My son ask for thyself another
Kingdom, for that which I leave
is too small for thee"
(King Philip of Macedonia - 339 B.C.)
Near to the east
In a part of ancient Greece
In an ancient land called Macedonia
Was born a son
To Philip of Macedon
The legend his name was Alexander
At the age of nineteen
He became the Macedon King
And he swore to free all of Asia Minor
By the Aegian Sea
In 334 B.C.
He utterly beat the armies of Persia
[Chorus:]
Alexander the Great
His name struck fear into hearts of men
Alexander the Great
Became a legend 'mongst mortal men
King Darius the third
Defeated fled Persia
The Scythians fell by the river Jaxartes
Then Egypt fell to the Macedon King as well
And he founded the city called Alexandria
By the Tigris river
He met King Darius again
And crushed him again in the battle of Arbela
Entering Babylon
And Susa, treasures he found
Took Persepolis the capital of Persia
[Chorus:]
Alexander the Great
His name struck fear into hearts of men
Alexander the Great
Became a God amongst mortal men
A Phrygian King had bound a chariot yoke
And Alexander cut the 'Gordian knot'
And legend said that who untied the knot
He would become the master of Asia
Hellenism he spread far and wide
The Macedonian learned mind
Their culture was a western way of life
He paved the way for Christianity
Marching on, marching on
The battle weary marching side by side
Alexander's army line by line
They wouldn't follow him to India
Tired of the combat, pain and the glory
Alexander the Great
His name struck fear into hearts of men
Alexander the Great
He died of fever in Babylon.
Your nation has a simple choice to make. Either accept a reasonable name and establish friendly relations with Greece or face isolation
and eventually being crashed under the forces of Albanian separatism.
You can choose to stabilize your country and become a respected and prosperous country in the E.U or keep maintaining aggressiveness against Greece and hoping that some day your capital could be Salonica. I can assure that you that this will never happen.
If there was for anyone to ever occupy Macedonia this would be Turkey, given its current power and its strategic importance for the US, not a small state with very weak economy and army like yours. My advice to northern Macedonians is to focus on the real issues of your country, which is the Albanian minority and the 40% unemployment, and realize that forging history by no means serves your just cause of a stronger nation.
Respectfully,
Michalis |
| dejan |
quote:
Originally posted by msirivia
a)Macedonia is a geographical area that extends south to Greece and Eastern to Bulgaria. Actually the Macedonian part of Greece is named Macedonia too, as one of Greece's geographical divisions.
b)The residents of Greek Macedonia call themselves Macedonians too.
c)
Alexander's actual name as written in ancient scriptures was "Alexandros" and his father's "Philippos", which are the exact names modern greeks use to name their children.
Alexander was perhaps the most significant propagator of Greek culture. Thereby, the name of the whole historical period "Hellenistic" that describes the times between Alexander conguests and the roman empire. (Check this obviously neutral link if you don'y believe me, one of the first to come up with google seach with this keyword, http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_hellenistic.html)
He spread Greek culture (language, architecture, olympian religion, literature etc) to most of the eastern known world and the proof of that is everywhere from Egypt to Iran.
e)In my belief ancient Macedonia was as Greek as ancient Sparta. Note however that in the ancient times Hellenic city-states were not unified and engaged in disasterous wars very often. However, they all shared similar cultural elements and when they had to form alliances to face common enemies they did so.
g)Due to the long tradition of Balkan nations in expressing territorial demands on their neighbors, the fact that you insist on giving your country the name of a region that covers more than your country's area and extends to the north of our country, can do nothing but cause unease to Greeks. In addition, the fact that most of you claim that you are the only rightful heirs of the ancient macedonia heritage is a direct insult on our history and traditions.
In other words, we view your country's name as an act of aggression against the integrity of our nation. Allowing you to call yourselves the only Macedonian's and calling your country Macedonia implies that the rest of Macedonia is nothing but an occupied by non-Macedonians area. This consequently could give you the historical justification to claim for example that Salonica is "Macedonian". We, as most of the nations in our region, are very sensitive regarding these issues.
As far as i know, the greek government began called that northern region in Greece, 'Makedonia' a few years before the break up of yugoslavia. Correct me if i am wrong.
Which residents of Greek Macedonia call themselves (openly) the Greeks, or the Macedonians? The Macedonians who live in Greek Macedonia are refused the right to openly call themselves Macedonians, so i guess you mean the Greeks call themselves Macedonians in that region?
You say that Alexander was Greek, right? I've seen in numerous sources, that the Greeks in ancient times hated Philip, and when he died, Greeks celebrated in Athens. But when Alexander came to the throne, he had to re-conquer Greece, so that it would not revolt. Why did Alexander have to conquer Greece, if he really was a Greek? And if he was a Greek, or if his father was a Greek, why didn't he unite all Greek cities under one rule? He didn't, he conquered, which is what Rome did.
I don't believe that Alexander spread Hellenistic culture. On his campaigns, he took with him greek architects, philosophers and other occupations. Alexander only assisted in the spread of Greek culture.
Sparta, as far as i know, was inhabbited by the Dorians.
Isn't the ancient greek language, different from modern Greek? Doesn't modern Greek have something to do with Koine?
Do you know what happened in 1913? Macedonia was partitioned amongst Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria. Greece got the larger chunk. It appears to me that you have not been that much informed on the history of 'Greek' Macedonia, and the 'civil war' Did you konw that Greece was going to be taken over foriegn countries, when your original border was up to Thessaly, but it was lucky that it had connections with the Danish royal family, and was saved. When Macedonia was partitioned, Greeks came in and killed Macedonians, sent thim off to other countries, eradicated villages, destroying evidence that Macedonians had inhabbited that region. But still Macedonians survived in that area, and if you go to 'Greek' Macedonia, to the more northern parts of the region, you'll see that mostly Macedonians live there, who survived the exodus.
The reason why our name recognition causes unease in Greece, especially the government is because they know that if it is recognised (as it should be) that means they'll have to admit too what happened, and that would be really embarrassing for Greece, because it claimed territory through force, and deny the rights of the original inhabbitants.
Salonica, or Solun as we call it, was Macedonian. Your ignorance annoys me, sorry, but it does. How can Greeks in that region call themselves Macedonians, when the original inhabbitants (Yes the real Macedonians) cannot call themselves that?! That is just stupid, so you are saying that thousands of Greeks are calling themselves Macedonians? When they are Greeks, and they call themsleves another nationality? When did they begin to call themselves 'Greek Macedonians'? Only like a few decades ago.
Greece knows of the historical importance in that region, Alexander, Orthodox Religion...That is why Greece claims that the region has always been their's, so they can falsify history. |
| msirivia |
"As far as i know, the greek government began called that northern region in Greece, 'Makedonia' a few years before the break up of yugoslavia. Correct me if i am wrong."
We have always called Macedonia as Makedonia, ever since we established our modern state in 1828. Back then it was under the Ottoman rule. And was populated by greek, serbian and bulgarian population that was enslaved by Ottomans. Before the 1529 when Konstantinoupoli (Instanbul) fall to the Ottomans Macedonia was part of the byzantium which was mainly Greek-influenced in terms of language anf other cultural elements.
During the balkan wars we were marginally able to liberate Macedonia defeating Bulgarians. the name Macedonia was used by all the Greeks who fought for its liberation.
"Which residents of Greek Macedonia call themselves (openly) the Greeks, or the Macedonians? The Macedonians who live in Greek Macedonia are refused the right to openly call themselves Macedonians, so i guess you mean the Greeks call themselves Macedonians in that region?"
There are no "Macedonians" that are refused to call themselves Macedonians. if you know such an incident please report it to me documented and I will make sure to pass to the Greek Press and raise an issue of Discrimination and opression of human rights. Are these so called Macedonians nationals of your country? In my knowledge in Greek Macedonia we have muslim (turkish and a small albanian minority). i am not aware of any other minorities.
Yes the residents of the Greek Macedonia call themselves mACEDonias much like I call my self Athenean on Pelopponisian.
"You say that Alexander was Greek, right? I've seen in numerous sources, that the Greeks in ancient times hated Philip, and when he died, Greeks celebrated in Athens. But when Alexander came to the throne, he had to re-conquer Greece, so that it would not revolt. Why did Alexander have to conquer Greece, if he really was a Greek? And if he was a Greek, or if his father was a Greek, why didn't he unite all Greek cities under one rule? He didn't, he conquered, which is what Rome did."
Please refer to the cited bibliography. Alexander was in a large degree Greek although Macedonians were different in many ways from the rest of the Greek Tribes on the mainland Greece back then. this does not mean that at that times there were no rivalries among the Greek Tribes. It is well known that a few decades after the succesfull war against the Persians were Greeks fought united Athens and Sparta engaged in a distructive war that polarized Greece in two main camps. Something similar happen with Macedonia, only this time Macedonia was far more powerfull comparing to the rest of the city states. What defines somebody as Greek, seeing it from today'standards is its language, religion and customs which were profoundly hellenic as numerous archaelogical excavations have revealed.
"I don't believe that Alexander spread Hellenistic culture. On his campaigns, he took with him greek architects, philosophers and other occupations. Alexander only assisted in the spread of Greek culture."
He was very aware that by taking with him greek scholars and artists he was spreading Greek culture. Eugene Borzan poses a similar argument but it is obviously very naive. Hellenization happened so fast and in a such large scale that it cannot be considered coincidental. Furthermore why didn't he choose to spread your so claimed Macedonian culture, if it was different from Greek? Usually conquerors impose their own culture and do not try to impose the conquested culture to themselves and others.
"Sparta, as far as i know, was inhabbited by the Dorians."
Yes Spartans, which I claim based on geoigraphical arguments that are my ancestors, were indeed Dorians. Dorians were one of the Greek Tribes that descended in Greece at least as early as 1000 BC.
"Isn't the ancient greek language, different from modern Greek? Doesn't modern Greek have something to do with Koine?"
of course is different. Do you know any modern language that has been preserved exactly the same as its 3000 year old predecessor!?
Although it is different though there is not a single language that is closer to Ancient Greek. Ask any decent linguist and he will verify it to you. Our vocabulary is very similar, our expressions too and many other issues. Do you think that Italian is very similar to Latin? Are you doubting that Italians are the rightfull heirs of Romans? That's what happens when you have many thousand years old history, perhaps some of your historians are not able to conceive because they have no personal experience of it...
About "Koine". I guess you mean "Keenee" as it is correctly pronounced. "Koine" comes from the ancient greek word (the curse of my big fat greek wedding strikes back) koino, pronounced as Keeno, which means common. Modern greek as it has been formed the last century is called "Koine" because it is the common Greek language spoken officially in all greece. it is a mixture of popular local dialects, ancient language from the Classical to the Byzantine times and newly formed words. It is a derivative of the normal process of language evolution. Who ever told you that Modern Greek does not come from Ancient Greek but from "koine" is ignorant beyond the acceptable levels of mental inadequacy....(I would love to meet those fellow Balkans called...Koinoans or perhaps Koinians... :) )/
"Do you know what happened in 1913? Macedonia was partitioned amongst Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria. Greece got the larger chunk. It appears to me that you have not been that much informed on the history of 'Greek' Macedonia, and the 'civil war' Did you konw that Greece was going to be taken over foriegn countries, when your original border was up to Thessaly, but it was lucky that it had connections with the Danish royal family, and was saved. "
I don;t know about the Danish royal family. Obviously we must have done something right with our alliance and our strategy to win the Balkan wars. yes we did get the larger chunk back, simply because we won. if bulgaria had won perhaps now we wouldn;t have this conversation and perhaps Yugoslavia and perhaps northern macedonians would never have emerged. That's how history is.
"When Macedonia was partitioned, Greeks came in and killed Macedonians, sent thim off to other countries, eradicated villages, destroying evidence that Macedonians had inhabbited that region. But still Macedonians survived in that area, and if you go to 'Greek' Macedonia, to the more northern parts of the region, you'll see that mostly Macedonians live there, who survived the exodus."
I honestly doubt that. Again I would be enlightened if you supplied me with credible references on what you are claiming. I don't know about "macedonians" but I bet we did our share of attrocities against bulgarian, albanians, serbians or ottomans who lived in the area. Didn;t we all Balkans did that at some point? Isn't this why we now all want to leave in peace and leave the black clouds of war behind us?
"The reason why our name recognition causes unease in Greece, especially the government is because they know that if it is recognised (as it should be) that means they'll have to admit too what happened, and that would be really embarrassing for Greece, because it claimed territory through force, and deny the rights of the original inhabbitants."
That does nothing but verifying my fears regarding territorial claims by your country. Face it, your borders will not change at least your southern borders because there are no guarantees about your northern and western ones with Kosovo...
We are not concerned about so called genocides or this kind of embaracements. We are concerned of your falsely directed nationalism, that threatens our country.
"Salonica, or Solun as we call it, was Macedonian. Your ignorance annoys me, sorry, but it does. How can Greeks in that region call themselves Macedonians, when the original inhabbitants (Yes the real Macedonians) cannot call themselves that?! That is just stupid, so you are saying that thousands of Greeks are calling themselves Macedonians? When they are Greeks, and they call themsleves another nationality? When did they begin to call themselves 'Greek Macedonians'? Only like a few decades ago."
Thessaloniki is Greek and yes it is in Macedonia! You have no right to claim that it belongs to your country if that's what you are implying. Greek Macedonians are not another nationality. They are simply Greeks who reside in southern macedonia. We do think that you have the right to name your nationality Macedonians as long as you accept that your territorial demands are limited to northern macedonia as it is defined by the current borders.
Your country's official name should be Northern Macedonia, or Upper Macedonia or something like this.
"Greece knows of the historical importance in that region, Alexander, Orthodox Religion...That is why Greece claims that the region has always been their's, so they can falsify history."
I don't get your point. I hope you are not saying that Alexander was Christian orthodox, which is not unlikely given your knowledge in the history of the region. Now that I am thinking about it, please tell me that you don't believe that Ancient Macedonians were orthodox christians...
|
| dejan |
You are very ignorant, extremely. You're like a robot, honestly, you only say what has been programmed into you. You read my post differently, i was giving examples of history in that region, first alexander's history, then the history of the orthodox church which had nothing to do with alexander.
Really, i have no motivation to continue this debate, i have contributed to many other similar debates, and i have no motivation for another one now, maybe later when i am finished with my exams.
I will leave you with these links, http://www.pollitecon.com/ and this one especially, hope it answers some of your questions which i cannot be bothered to say.
http://www.pollitecon.com/html/life/my_first_visit.html |
| msirivia |
Please take this piece of advice for someone a little older and perhaps more experienced.
If you want to engage in political conversations you must satisfy the following requirements:
a) Know your subject so that you avoid embaracing situations like the one you got into with the so called "Koine".
b) Read the whole answer that somebody gives you. I don;t think that my answers were robotic. They were as substantiated as I could make them. We have different opinions, that is unavoidable but you have to learn to respect the different element. Even if you totally disagree with what I am saying you could at least get some insight on the opinion of many Greeks. That is undoubtfully very useful and the reason I post on this forum is no other than finding out about your opinions and giving you mine. I just state it, i do not impose it. If you are offended by this type of conversations then you should wait a few years and come back when you are ready to handle it.
c) Do not insult your "blog opponent". You can characterize in a bad way some of his statements and arguments. However, attacking him personally, calling him ignorant etc shows lack of convincing arguments from your side. Again, i think this is an issue of maturity.
Good luck with your exams, I hope that after you graduate from high school you will have acquired a more critical attitude toward the issues that you deal with and you will be ready to listen and respect different opinions. I hope that at some point you will realize that peaceful disagreements is a part of the learning process. |
| DJ_SHEMA |
On the so called greek Macedonians in northern Makedonia:
What about these original Macedonians living in that area?
The Greek government attempted to ethnically cleanse the Macedonian population and colonize Aegean Macedonia with Greeks. A series of population exchanges occurred after 1913 which saw tens of thousands of Macedonians forcibly expelled while over half a million Greeks were shipped in from Turkey and Bulgaria.
"All statistics except the Greek ones are also in general agreement that these Macedonians represented the largest single group on the territory of Aegean Macedonia before 1913. The figures range from 329,371 or 45.3 per cent to 382,084 or 68.9 per cent of the non-Turkish population; and from 339.369 or 31.3 per cent to 370.371 or 35.2 per cent of the total population of the area of approximately 1,052,227 inhabitants.
The number of Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia began to decline both in absolute terms and as a percentage of the total population during the Balkan wars and particularly after the First World War. The Treaty of Neuilly with Bulgaria provided for the so-called volun-tary exchange of Greek and Bulgarian minorities. According to the best available estimates, 86,582 Macedonians were compelled to emigrate from Aegean Macedonia, mostly from its eastern and central regions, to Bulgaria in the years from 1913 to 1928. More importantly still as a result of the compulsory exchange of Greek and Turkish or rather Christian and Muslim minorities required by the Treaty of Lausanne, which ended the Greek-Turkish war (1919-22), 400,000 Turks, including 49,000 Muslim Macedonians, were forced to leave Greece; and 1,300,000 Greeks and other Christians were expelled from Asia Minor. In the years up to 1928 the Greek government settled 565,143 of these refugees as well as 53,000 colonists from other parts of Greece in Aegean Macedonia. Thus, as a result of the removal of 127,384 Macedonians and the conscious and planned settlement of 618,199 refugees, the Greek government transformed the ethnographic structure of Aegean Macedonia in the period between 1913 and 1928."
"Even Greek sources concede that during the years from 1913 to 1928 the enormous movements of population which took place in Greek Macedonia changed the ethnological composition of the area. Macedonia, History and Politics, acknowledges that perhaps 100,000 Slavic speakers 'left' (ie., were forced to leave), 77,000 of these in 1926 alone. These figures may well be an underestimate but this material does add weight to the idea that even greater numbers of Greeks came in. The extent of the population movement out of Aegean Macedonia is emphasized in a report on March 30, 1927, in the Greek newspaper Rizospastis, which stated that 500,000 Slavic speakers were resettled to Bulgaria."
"Thus the majority of the Greek-speaking population of Aegean Macedonia is descended from relatively recent Greek refugees from Turkey and other places. This being the case, Greece might be considered to have questionable claim on the name Macedonia. Remember, too, that the name Macedonia was not applied to the province by Greece until 1988. Thus much of the current population has lived at most some 70 years in a land that has been called 'Macedonia' for less than a decade. Clearly they do not have the kind of historical claim to the land and to the name Macedonia as the Macedonian Slavs, Vlachs and Albanians whose ancestors have been there for 1,500 years or more."
"...they have carefully fostered this delusion, as if to give the impression both to their own people and to the world that there that there was no Slav minority in Greece at all; whereas, if a foreigner who did not know Greece were to visit the Florina (Lerin) region and from his idea of the country as a whole, he would conclude that it was the Greeks who were the minority. It is predominantly a Slav region not a Greek one. The language of the home, and usually also of the fields, the village street, and the market, is Macedonian, a Slav language."
The Macedonians became a minority in the eastern half of Aegean Macedonia while remaining (still today) a majority in western Aegean Macedonia, around the villages of Lerin, Kostur, and Voden. The numbers of ethnic Macedonians was reduced to 240,000. Today, the estimates range between 270,000 and one million (the latter number by Macedonian human rights activists in Greece).
"As official census data do not exist, and if they did they would not be reliable, we will mention here the most frequent estimate of some 200,000 Macedonian speakers in Greece (IHF, 1993:45; & Rizopoulos, 1993); the 1987 Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year 1987 gives an estimate of 180,000 (Banfi, 1994:5). Also, an anonymous Greek ethnologist gave an estimate of 200,000 for the community...(Chiclet, 1994:8). Another scholar, based on a detailed estimate of 30,000 speakers in the Florina and Aridea area makes a global estimate of 100,000-150,000 Macedonian speakers throughout Greek Macedonia (Van Boeschoten, 1994). Thus, the 200,000 estimate for the Macedonian community seems reasonable..." 5
"...we note Greek claims that Northern Greece, or Aegean Macedonia, is 'more than 98.5% ethnically pure.' The purity is held to be Greek. However, the statement is not accepted by reputable opinion outside of Greece. For instance, the 1987 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica indicated that there were still 180,000 Macedonian speakers in this area, indicating a much greater percentage than 1.5%. If Macedonian activists from these areas are correct,there may be as many as 1,000,000 people from Macedonian-speaking backgrounds in Aegean Macedonia." 6
"Following the partition of Macedonia in 1913, Aegean Macedonia was annexed by Greece and since then its indigenous people, the ethnic Macedonians, became the target and often the victim of the oppressive policies of Greek state. Today, after nearly ninety years of assimilation efforts by the Greek governments it seems that measures have proved to be unsuccessful in Hellenizing the region. Currently, the ethnic Macedonians, estimated around 1,000,000 by some sources, still constitute the majority of population in that part of the Greece, Aegean Macedonia."
and furthermore
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MACEDONIA: WHAT WENT WRONG IN THE LAST 200 YEARS
Part VIII - The Plight of the Macedonian Refugee Children
By Risto Stefov
January, 2003
In the previous article (part VII) I covered World War II, the Greek Civil War and their effects on the Macedonian people.
In this article (part VIII) I will cover the evacuation of the Macedonian children and the consequences of the Greek Civil War. The entire article is based on information obtained from interviews.
It was a dreary spring day on March 25th, 1948 when it all began. It was a day filled with high emotions, tears and heartbreak for the mothers and children of western Aegean Macedonia. It was the day the Detsa Begaltsi (Refugee Children) left, and for most it was the last time that they would ever see their beloved family and home.
The idea of evacuating the children was proposed by a sympathetic group of young men and women at a Youth Conference in 1947 in Belgrade, Yugoslavia. The escalating conflict in the Greek Civil War posed a threat to the civilian population, which was a concern for the "progressive youth". Although they couldn't do anything for the civilian adults who were needed to support the war effort, there was a way to help the children. They proposed a temporary evacuation whereby the children would be sent out of the country to pursue their education in safety with the intent of being returned once the conflict ended. Although it was a good idea, the Greek Communist Party (KKE) saw no immediate need for such a plan and as a result it didn't give it much support. Partisan General Markos Vafiadis however, saw merit in the proposal because he believed that the conflict would escalate and concentrate in western Aegean Macedonia. He was, at the time, responsible for the defense of parts of western Macedonia that included the territories of the Lerin region and parts of Kostur and Voden regions. In 1947 the Partisans were at their peak strength and with the exception of the large cities were in control of all territories in western Aegean Macedonia.
When the Greek Government began to use heavy artillery and aerial bombardment, the idea quickly gained KKE support and the "save the children" program was born. Before the program was put into action it gained approval from the Macedonian Liberation Front, the Women's Antifascist Front and the Red Cross. The host countries, willing to look after the children, were contacted to gain their approval and information campaigns were begun to inform the people about the program. The district and village organizations were also asked to participate and were eventually given the responsibility of organizing and implementing the actual evacuations. When the authorities in the Greek Government heard of this program they began the so-called "pedomazoma" (collect the children) campaign. The Greek army, upon capturing Macedonian villages, was ordered to evacuate the children, by force if necessary. After being gathered at various camps, the children were eventually sent to the Greek Island of Leros. There, they were enrolled in schools to study religion and became wards of the Greek Queen, Fredericka. After the conclusion of the Greek Civil War (1951-52) some children were returned to their homes in Macedonia while most, especially those whose parents were killed or fled the country as refugees, became wards of the Greek State and remained in dormitories until adulthood. All the children that remained at Leros were completely Hellenized and were never heard from again.
Pressure from the community prompted organizers of the "save the children" program to expedite the evacuation process to stop the "Burandari" (nickname for Greek Government soldiers and policemen) from taking more children.
The evacuations carried out by the Partisans were done strictly on a voluntary basis. It was up to the child's parents or guardians to decide whether the child was to be evacuated or not. No child was ever evacuated by force or without consent. The evacuation zones were selected based on the severity of the conflict and the degree of danger it posed to the children. Central command organizers decided on the selection criteria and qualifications of which children were to be evacuated. The lists included all children between the ages of two and fourteen as well as all orphans, disabled, and special children. Before the evacuation was put into effect, women over the age of eighteen were enlisted from the local population and from the Partisan ranks to be trained to handle young children. Widows of fallen Partisans were also recruited as "surrogate mothers" to accompany and assist the children through the evacuation process and during their stay in the host countries.
The evacuation program began to gain momentum in early March of 1948 starting with the recruitment and training of the special teachers. The actual evacuations were carried out on mass, starting on March 25th through to March 30th, 1948 until all the designated villages were evacuated. Most children were transported through Yugoslavia and were sent to Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia and Poland. Some were evacuated through Albania and Bulgaria. As the numbers of the evacuated rose, children were also sent to East Germany and to the USSR. It is estimated that about 28,000 children in all were evacuated, most of them from northwestern Aegean Macedonia. Although smaller in number some orphans, children of Partisans, and children of families that were in trouble with the Greek Government authorities were also evacuated. When their turn came the children from each village were summoned and escorted by Partisan guides to the closest designated border crossing. For their safety, the children traveled under the cover of darkness and away from the main roads. In some cases, due to heavy aerial attacks and falling bombs, some villages evacuated their children in haste without escorts and they became stranded in the snow-covered mountains without shelter.
Mothers prepared luggage, a change of clothing, food and eating utensils before escorting their little ones to the designated meeting places. With eyes tearing mothers said goodbye to their loved ones before sending them into the hands of destiny. Their cries could be heard for a long time as they disappeared into the distance. It didn't take too long before the emptiness was felt and many mothers could not stop crying and contemplating the fate of their little ones.
The children walked in single file behind their surrogate mothers holding hands. The older children comforted the young as they moved into seclusion. Under the cover of darkness they silently slipped over the terrain, avoiding roads and open spaces being constantly reminded by their Partisan guides to keep quiet. They crossed over high mountains and steep slopes ever mindful and vigilant of the flying Greek menace above as they made their way to the borders. The lucky ones spent the nights indoors in designated villages. The others however slept outdoors in the open spaces of the frigid mountains questioning the wisdom of their elders and wondering which was more dangerous the falling bombs or the freezing cold.
During their trek, one group came across a dangerously steep slope laden with loose rocks leading directly into the rushing waters of a river. Being too dangerous for the children to cross alone each mother had to make several trips carrying children on their shoulders one at a time. Expediency was in order as the slope was exposed to aerial view. One child was lucky that day as a tragedy was narrowly averted. In her haste to get across one mother tripped over a thorn bush, losing her balance. As she stumbled she managed to take the child off her shoulders and toss her up the slope. Luckily, the girl didn't panic and was able to brace herself. The mother then grabbed the child's feet and regained her own balance. It was a frightening experience for everyone in the group.
Another group, frightened by the heavy aerial bombardments, left their village under the cover of darkness at one thirty in the morning. It was cloudy and raining that night, ideal for escaping the bombers but a disaster for the morale of the children. It rained all night and through to the next day as the group hid in the mountains. They couldn't risk lighting a fire and being seen so they stayed wet and cold through the day, enduring nature's punishment. When night came they inched their way through darkness over snow covered, thorn infested terrain to the next village. The children were in shock and hardly felt the bleeding cuts on their feet. Some had no shoes and their mud soaked socks offered no protection against the sharp rocks and stinging thorns.
As one group made their way towards their destination one of the surrogate mothers couldn't stop crying. The person in charge of the group explained that there was no reason for her to be upset since all of the children were accounted for, fed, and looked after. But the mother was still upset and kept crying. When asked what was the problem, she explained that she couldn't properly take care of a six-month-old orphan baby that was left in her care. She only had one spare diaper and after washing it she had no means of drying it. The best she could do was put the diaper against her own chest. It never dried and she felt so sorry for the poor child who had to wear a cold, wet diaper out in the freezing cold.
The borders could only be crossed at night so the children had to wait in seclusion until it was dark. To prepare them for the journey the children had to leave the villages and head for the mountains before dawn. As they left they were told to leave their belongings behind, promised that they would be delivered to them later by wagon. As the children made their way past the border crossing, the wagon never materialized and they were left without food, utensils, blankets or a change of clothing. To this day many believe that the Greek Partisans stole their belongings.
After crossing the Yugoslav border the children were taken to the village of Dupeni and from there to Ljuboino to wait for more arrivals. In the care of their surrogate mothers the children were placed in designated homes where they spent up to a week sleeping on straw covered floors, fifteen children to a room. Food was in short supply so each child was only given a slice of cornbread for supper before being put to bed still hungry. After a few days of hunger some resorted to stealing food from the village homes. After spending a week in Luboino, the children were transported by military trucks to Bitola where they boarded a train for Brailovo. In Brailovo each group was assigned to a home where they slept together with their surrogate mother in a room lined with hay for bedding. Morale was low and the children constantly cried from the enduring hunger and homesickness. Food was scarce so to preserve rations the children were fed one meal every other day. Those who lost their belongings had no bowls or spoons to eat with and resorted to using discarded sardine cans and whatever else they could find. Some found discarded toothpaste tubes and fashioned them into spoons. One surrogate mother found a rusty bucket and after cleaning it, used it as a soup bowl. The warm soup took on a red colour as the rust dissolved and came to the surface. The children were too hungry to waste it so she skimmed the rust off the surface and spooned it into all the children. An old woman seeing this felt so sorry for the bunch that she offered them her portion, preferring to stay hungry rather than having to watch the children starve. At this point most of the older boys were contemplating escape but their concern for the younger ones kept them from doing so. Some were so hungry they scoured the countryside looking for food, eating kernels of grain and corn and even resorting to killing wildlife to satisfy their hunger. After spending a little over a week in Brailovo, the various groups were transported to the nearest train station where each child was pinned with a name and destination tag and prepared for travel to the various host countries. Separating the children was not an easy task as the young clung to the older children and refused to be separated. Siblings clung to each other with all their might, fighting back with tears and cries. It took a lot of convincing and reassurances before they could be separated.
The first groups to leave were the younger children aged five to ten. Most of them were sent to Bela Tsrkva in northern Yugoslavia. These children were the most vulnerable and had to be quickly rescued before they died of starvation. In Bela Tsrkva, after spending some time in quarantine, the children were placed in dormitories with proper facilities and plenty of nutritious food. The rest, after spending a week or so at the train station were sent to Skopje. Life at the train station was harsh as most children were nearly starving and had no energy to move. Their hunger was so overpowering that the children had no energy to even complain about the tormenting lice. Many spent their time resting in the stable cars nestled in the warmth and comfort of the hay. The cars, left from WW II were used by the Germans to transport horses.
When they arrived in Skopje the children were given milk and food, which seemed like a gift from heaven after starving for so long. Without much delay, the train wagons were again divided and a group was sent to Romania while the rest continued on their way to Bulkes. Considering the episodes from the last separation, this time the authorities decided not to inform the children or the surrogate mothers. As a result, some children were visiting friends in neighbouring cars and ended up going to the wrong destination. Many mothers didn't know what had happened and worried endlessly about the fate of the missing children. When they arrived in Bulkes (Vojvodina) the groups were supplied with food donated by the United Nations and the children were bathed and given new clothes. From there they were taken by wagons to a nearby hospital for physical examinations. Bulkes was a town built by the Germans and occupied by the Greek partisans. It was teeming with activities geared towards supporting the war effort. Food was plentiful and the children spent most of their days living in empty schools and warehouses. Besides the Macedonians, there were also children from Epirus and Thessaly. As soon as they became comfortable however, the children were again on the move. After spending about a month in Bulkes, they were again loaded onto train cars, given some food and sent off to various destinations. Unbeknownst to them, they had been separated again and sent to Hungary, Poland or Czechoslovakia.
When the group destined for Czechoslovakia arrived, the Czech authorities stripped the children naked from their lice infested clothing, cut their hair and gave them a bath on mass. It was a new experience for the Macedonian children to be bathed naked in front of so many people. The local buildings and baths once belonged to the German soldiers, but since their expulsion, they became a haven for the refugee children. After spending time in quarantine, the children were taken to a new camp to join other refugee children that had arrived there earlier via a different route and were assigned quarters and schoolmasters. The children were re-grouped into pre-school ages 4 to 6, public school ages 7 to 12 and technical school ages 13 and over. The surrogate mothers were responsible for looking after the younger groups consisting of about twenty children each. Their duties included waking them up in the morning, helping them dress into their uniforms, supervising their morning exercises and making sure everyone ate a good breakfast. In the evening they supervised the children playing until they were put to bed. They also had to make sure shoes were polished and uniforms cleaned and properly hung for the night. Morning started with exercise and a good breakfast. The Czech teachers were professionals, trained in child psychology, who did their best to educate the children properly. In addition to the regular curriculum, the children were expected to learn various languages including Czech, Greek, Macedonian and Russian. On occasion, mothers and children were sent on work assignments to the farms to assist with gathering fruits, berries and mushrooms. With time mothers and children began to adjust to their new life with the exception of the usual fighting between Greek and Macedonian children, especially the boys. There was friction between the Greek and Macedonian children with frequent verbal insults sometimes resulting in fistfights. Eventually the Greek children were moved to a new camp, which put an end to the fighting.
When the group destined for Romania arrived, about one thousand five hundred children were offloaded and sent straight to the baths and their flea-ridden clothes were washed in boiling water. After the bath, each child was issued under garments and pajamas and sent to a nearby compound formerly used by the Germans as a hospital during the war. The children stayed there from April until October 1948. Then on October 25th, 1948 many of the children were relocated to Poland. Most Macedonian children wore homemade woolen clothes that shrank during the hot wash. Fortunately, the good people of Romania donated replacement garments and the children were clothed before leaving for Poland. After spending six months in Romania in a quasi-supervised compound without any schooling, the children became wild and undisciplined. With one supervisor for the entire train, the trip to Poland was a joyride. Some children mischievously climbed through the windows of the railcars to the roof of the moving train and stood uprighand two or three assistants per dorm. Each dorm had eight to ten rooms with four children per room. There was no shortage of food, toys or games. The directors were responsible for supervising morning exercises, breakfast and getting the children to school on time. After school they made sure the children came back safely, were given supper and put to bed.
About 2,000 refugee children were sent to Hungary and assigned to quarters in a military barracks in Budapest. There each child was undressed, sprayed with pesticide, bathed, dressed in new clothing and given a package of toiletries that included soap and a tube of toothpaste. The children, not knowing what the toothpaste was, mistook it for food. The aroma of mint reminded them of candy and many wasted the toothpaste, attempting to eat it. Initially, Greek and Macedonian children were mixed together in a single group. But due to fights, the authorities were forced to split the children into smaller groups, segregated by village of origin. After spending three weeks in quarantine the groups were adopted by the Hungarian community. Each village community, supported by a factory complex, adopted a group. Some found themselves among the richest communities in the region and were privileged to live in quarters made of marble. Nearby there was a small lake teeming with exotic and colourful fish. Unfortunately, the children were all homesick missing their mothers and had little appreciation for luxury. Slowly however, routine began to take over as the children attended school and became involved in school and community activities. Besides the regular curriculum, the refugee children were expected to learn to read and write in their native language. Even though Greek officials administered the programs and scoffed at the idea, the Macedonian children were given the choice of learning Macedonian if they wanted to.
I want to mention here that the Macedonian programs were a direct translation (word for word) from the Greek programs. Even though the children were learning in their native Macedonian language, they were learning what the Greeks wanted them to learn. The Macedonian teachers were not allowed to diverge from the established programs. In other words, Hellenization and Greek propaganda continued to influence the Macedonian children even outside the Greek borders.
By 1949 casualties were mounting at home and reports were filtering through to the refugee camps where children received bad news about the fate of their parents and relatives. Morale was so low that the children became isolated, withdrawn and would not sing, talk, cry or even eat. To boost their morale the surrogate mothers, who wore black to mourn the deaths of their husbands, resorted to wearing white and colourful dresses. For the sake of the children, in spite of their own sorrow, mothers had to appear cheerful and put on happy faces.
As the Civil War in Greece intensified, the Partisans were running out of recruits at home and began to look at the refugee children abroad as a possible source. Although draftees were recruited from all the camps abroad, most of the fighting force came from Romania. Initially, two new groups were formed and brought back for military training. The recruitment campaign and propaganda was so tempting that the youngsters couldn't resist it and were happy to volunteer. Any child strong enough to carry a rifle, regardless of age, was good enough for the draft. The first two groups recruited were instantly massacred upon engaging the battle hardened Greek Army. They were all under the age of fifteen, had no combat experience and no idea of what to expect. The third group left Romania and went to Rudary, Prespa via Bulgaria and Yugoslavia. Upon arrival, the young soldiers were sent to Shterkovo, another village in Prespa, for about a month of military training and preparation for combat. The young men spent part of March and April 1949 performing military exercises, learning to operate weapons and set explosives. When word came that the first two groups of young fighters were decimated, there was a loud outcry by the community against such atrocities, "We did not save our children so you can slaughter them." The third group was only spared because many mothers demonstrated and voiced their anger against such a barbaric draft. The group was demobilized before reaching the battlefields and many of the children were sent back to the refugee camps. Some were allowed to go home only to end up as refugees again during the mass exodus in the fall of 1949.
As the Greek Civil War was coming to a close, Western Aegean Macedonia was bombed to dust and Partisans and civilians alike fled to Albania to save themselves. When the war was over many wanted to return but Greece did to return, regardless of whether they were guilty of any crimes or not. After spending some time in the camps in Albania, the people of Macedonia, again victims of someone else's war, became permanent war refugees and were sent to various Eastern Block countries. Before departure, the refugees were separated into two groups. One, made up mostly of Partisan fighters was sent to the USSR. The other consisting mostly of civilians and Partisan support staff was sent to Poland. After the groups were separated they were transported to the port of Durasi, loaded onto cargo ships and sent westward through Gibraltar to Poland and eastward via the Black Sea to the Soviet Union. The voyages were long and unpleasant. To avoid detection the refugees were literally hidden inside the cargo and at critical times ordered to remain immobile and quiet for long periods of time. When they landed at their destinations, the refugees were stripped and their flea-infested clothes were burned. After being powdered with pesticide and bathed in hot baths, they were then placed in quarantine where they spent about a month and a half resting idly before being relocated to permanent quarters.
After settling down and securing employment in their new countries, many parents who had refugee children began to look for them and with the help of the authorities were able to bring them home. As a result, many children left their host countries to join their parents in Poland, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, etc.
Refugees who had relatives in Canada, the USA and Australia through sponsorship made attempts to immigrate themselves and look for their children or have their relatives look for their children if immigration was not possible. Initially "the iron curtain" was shut tight and made it difficult to make inquiries, but as the Red Cross became involved it became easier. In 1953 during a Red Cross convention in Switzerland the question of the Refugee Children from the Greek Civil War came up and the various Red Cross agencies agreed to cooperate and exchange information with each other. After that, anyone requesting help to locate missing persons in Eastern Block Countries was not refused.
There are instances where Macedonians did experience problems with the Red Cross but these were due to Greek misinformation. When the Red Cross went looking for refugees in the Greek administered refugee camps they were told that the Macedonians were "migrant workers" and not refugees. Here is an actual account of what happened to one Macedonian woman in Poland.
The woman was well liked by her colleagues and in time became a model worker and qualified for a month's paid vacation. When her turn came, she was sent to a luxurious mountain resort. She was alone and felt uncomfortable going places but did agree to go and see the nativity in a local church. There she met two women who suspected that she was not Polish and were curious about how she had gotten there. After some discussion, it turned out the women were Red Cross workers and interested in finding people like her. When the women found out that she was a refugee interested in returning home, and that many others were in a similar situation, they urged her to seek help. She was given an address in Warsaw where she could meet with Red Cross officials and tell them her story. Upon returning from her vacation she and a friend went to Warsaw and after eleven days of appealing and pleading, their story was heard. Officials were curious as to why this hadn't come up at the refugee camps during the official Red Cros visits. As she recalls, unbeknownst to her, the Greek organizers made sure that the Macedonians were sent on day trips on the days of the Red Cross visits. Even after all this, the woman was still not allowed to leave. Greece would not accept her without a request from her husband. Her husband at the time was serving a prison sentence in the Greek concentration camps. It was not until 1954, three years later, that he was able to initiate the process for repatriation. The woman arrived home in May 1958 but could not stand the oppressive atmosphere and soon afterwards she and her family immigrated to Canada.
By 1950, Greece was taking extreme measures to close her borders with Albania, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria. Trusted Albanians from Epirus were brought into Macedonia and seeded throughout the border villages to act as eyes and ears for the Greeks. Greek authorities clamped down on the remaining population and no one was allowed to travel without permission. There were strict rules of conduct put into effect, including curfews. Anyone caught wandering outdoors past dusk was shot on sight. Many shepherds quit their jobs for fear of being killed and left their sheep wandering aimlessly. One little boy had an argument with his stepfather and ran away. The authorities were not at all sympathetic and wouldn't allow the family to go looking for him. The boy's mother and sister went looking for him anyway and brought him home safely at great risk to their own safety.
When the violence in Greece subsided parents and relatives began to inquire about repatriating their children. Those who displayed some loyalty to the Greek cause were told that their children would be allowed to return if decreed by the Greek Queen Fredericka. Unfortunately, this process required connections with the local Greek authorities and a lot of money, money that most Macedonians did not have. Those considered for repatriation had to meet a number of conditions including the willingness to accept permanent Hellenization. Children from Partisan families were automatically disqualified. Those who weren't willing to change their names or weren't liked for some reason were also disqualified. As the years passed fewer children were allowed to return and requests for repatriation continued to be ignored. Parents and relatives died and still their children were not allowed to return, not even for a visit.
After travel restrictions to countries behind the iron curtain were lifted, parents in spite of the expense, old age and ill health made their way to visit their children.
One woman on her deathbed made her husband promise her that he would visit their daughter in Poland before he died. Feeling his own mortality the man, in poor health, made the long trek and after thirty years of separation saw his daughter for the first time. She will never forget her father's sacrifice.
Another woman who let all four of her children (two sons and two daughters) leave during the dreaded May 1948 evacuation, also made the trek to Poland to see them for the last time. The woman was crippled from a war wound and could hardly walk but knew that soon she would die and wanted to see her children one more time. She traveled by train and in spite of her condition made it to Poland in good spirits. When she arrived, two of her children, a son and a daughter came to greet her. The daughter recognized her mother and after a long and emotional hug asked her if she knew which daughter she was. Her mother would not answer because she didn't know and didn't want to make a mistake. That deeply troubled the adult daughter who began to weep uncontrollably. She did recognize her son and called out his name but would not answer her daughter's pleas. After a while she finally recognized her, wiped her tears and with a wide smile called out her name. It was an emotional but happy ending for that family. Unfortunately for every happy ending there are dozens of sad ones. One old couple did not have enough money or the strength to make the trip to visit their children. Since then, both have passed on heartbroken, with their desires to see their children unfulfilled.
Many of the people I interviewed don't know why the Greek authorities wouldn't allow the children to return. In spite of pleas, even on humanitarian grounds, the Greek authorities decade after decade, government after government, maintain the same policy and will not allow the Macedonian refugee children to return home.
After the war was over and all the remaining Partisans were captured or killed, people that were evacuated by the Greek authorities, were slowly allowed to go home to their own villages. While many returned to their old homes, a few families decided to make their home in the new village. Some lost their farm equipment, tools, livestock and personal belongings to looters. For most, life had to start all over again. As tensions began to ease, those held in concentration camps were released and began to arrive home only to find their property gone. The Greek authorities, in addition to confiscating the properties of many of those who fled as refugees during the mass exodus of 1949, also confiscated the properties of those held in concentration camps. People were demoralized and constantly lived in fear of the authorities and retributions from their collaborators. There was a certain stigma attached to the relatives of Partisans or their supporters that caused them to withdraw from society and keep to themselves. Those who served in the Greek concentration camps were constantly harassed with curfews, restricted mobility and suspicion of espionage. Many were followed by plainclothes policemen and pressured themselves become informants and spy on their neighbours. Strangers were viewed with suspicion and automatically assumed to be foreign spies.
As radios became affordable people began to purchase them and listen to various programs, including broadcasts from Eastern Europe and the Federal Republic of Macedonia. The Greek police became vigilant and on many occasions they were observed outside people's yards listening to hear what programs were playing. Those caught listening to foreign programs were accused of espionage. The Macedonian language was once again banned from use and the "M" word became a dirty word even if it was spoken on the radio. Ever since Greece invaded the Macedonian territory, successive Greek Governments refused to acknowledge the existence of the Macedonian language.
One by one, all those who came back from the Eastern European countries left for Canada, the USA and Australia because they could no longer stand the Greek oppression. They had tasted freedom and wanted more even if it meant abandoning their beloved ancestral homes. They remembered how life was before the latest Greeks clampdown and now it was not the same. The people too had changed, they were still courteous and kind but their spirits were broken. Everyone was afraid, careful not to say anything incriminating as if every word was going to be judged and punished. Children born during this time were brought up believing that this was how life was and it was supposedly the best life one could have. They were taught to understand that Greece was the cradle of democracy and no one in the world was freer than the Greeks. Those who knew better did not dare speak otherwise. There were certain things that could not be done or discussed, especially the Greek Civil War. Children were taught Greek chauvinist songs iildren were old enough to keep a secret, taught them that they were a different people, that they were Macedonian and not Greek. Other parents however, thinking that it was in the best interest of the children not to know their true identity, allowed them to believe that they were Greek. Their loyalties however were never rewarded since it was very rare for a Macedonian child to be accepted in Greek society. It was not because Macedonian children were incapable of being intellectual, as the Greeks would have us believe, but because the Greek Government systemically discriminated against Macedonians. Discrimination was common practice especially at the individual level. Macedonians were constantly put down and as a result kept to themselves. Sometimes however, during heated discussions or unavoidable arguments Macedonians did show discontentment but the arguments always ended with the lethal insult of being called a "Bulgar", the lowest form of life known to Greeks. The highest level of education a Macedonian onto, Canada where he is currently learning to speak Macedonian. Even though he speaks no other language, he refuses to speak Greek.
After the fall of the dictatorship in Greece in the mid-sixties, many Macedonians were publicly encouraged by the Greek politicians to leave Greece because "there was no future for them there". Many of the empty villages in western Macedonia were filled with Albanians from west central Greece. Vlahs who originally lived in the highlands of Thessaly and spent summers in the Macedonian mountains took up permanent residence there. Many applied for and were granted the properties of post-Greek Civil War migrant families.
Macedonians that immigrated to Canada, the USA and Australia at the start of the 20th century organized village associations that assisted fellow immigrants in adjusting to their new countries. As post-Greek Civil War immigration accelerated, these village associations became a haven for new immigrants and their membership grew. Encouraged by their newfound freedoms, many of the new émigrés enjoyed their Macedonian culture and language in the diaspora. This was perceived as a threat to Greek influence both at home and abroad. As the associations grew in strength so did their threat to the Greek chokehold. To counter this, with help from the Greek Embassies and Consulates, pro-Greek factions began to infiltrate the Macedonian associations. The weaker associations were overpowered and rendered ineffective. Those that resisted managed to survive and preserve their unique Macedonian identity. For the ones that the Greeks could not subdue, parallel and competing pro-Greek associations were formed. The day a Macedonian association held an event, the pro-Greek association held a similar event, to divide the people. Macedonians wishing to participate in events and prone to blackmail were discouraged from joining the Macedonian organizations and encouraged to join the pro-Greek ones. To this day many Macedonians will not go to any of the events fearing retribution from both the Greeks if they went to Macedonian events or fearing disappointment and disgust from the Macedonians if they went to a pro-Greek event. This is precisely why the Macedonian community in the diaspora has become a silent community. This suits the Greeks perfectly and leaves the Macedonians frustrated and disappointed.
The most anti-Macedonian organization to surface from all the Greek associations is the Pan Macedonian Association, which aims to not only divide the Macedonian Nation but also destroy everything that is Macedonian. To this day this organization preys on the weak, innocent, naďve and those that can be bought and continues to spread hatred and lies at every opportunity. The Pan Macedonian Association is a "false organization" fully financed by Greek taxpayers most of whom are unaware of its discriminatory practices and the friction it creates between fellow Greek citizens.
In addition to disseminating anti-Macedonian propaganda and lobbying for "the Greek cause", many of these so-called "Greek-Macedonian" organizations spy on Macedonian organizations and individuals, reporting their activities to the Greek authorities. Many activists and supporters of the Macedonian cause even though they are Greek citizens are barred from returning to Greece. Their cause is noble if they serve the Greeks at their own expense, but as soon as one attempts to serve his or her own cause, they suddenly become traitors.
Macedonians are refused entry into Greece at the border points without any explanation. Without consent, their passport is stamped "void" and thrown back at them. They do the same to individuals with foreign passports without respect for the foreign State's property.
After years of living in Australia, one man decided to visit the Republic of Macedonia. Upon entry his passport was stamped with a beautiful red symbol, a real treasure, which made him very proud and happy. His visit to Macedonia was so wonderful that he decided to cross over into Greece and visit the village Nered where he was born. Unfortunately, the Greek customs officials would not allow him entry. What was most unbelievable is the Greek officer took the man's Australian passport without his consent, and stamped it "void" all over. They literally destroyed the Macedonian symbol by repeatedly stamping "void" over and over until it was no longer visible. No explanation or apology was given.
The Macedonian Refugee Children wish to express their gratitude to the counties and people who opened their doors to them at a time of their greatest need. They treated them not as strangers or immigrants, but as equals. They also wish to express many thanks to the countries and people for giving them the opportunity of free education in their institutions. Only through their generosity away from Greek bias did the Macedonian children prove themselves equal to all the children in the world. Free from Greek oppression they excelled in education and talent becoming professors, doctors, engineers, poets, playwrights, composers, economists, etc.
Most of the refugee children today are living in the diaspora. A great number of them have immigrated to Canada, the USA, Australia and the Republic of Macedonia. Some remained in their host countries (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Germany and Russia) and have made them their homes. They maintain contact with each other through associations and clubs and from time to time meet, attempting to gain entry to visit their homeland. Unfortunately, to this day they have had no success. Greece, after fifty-five years, still does not want them, not even to visit.
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| Pro Patria 2 |
Greko if there is a "Republic of Northern Macedonia" then it must have a southern part,and that part is Aegean Macedonia.So we have right to claim that part,right? |
| noname |
quote:
Originally posted by msirivia
Hi Macedones,
united Europe that values diversity, cooperation and progress.
Respectfully,
Michael Sirivianos
Hi,
Your attitude is reasonable.
Are you surprised of anything here? |
| msirivia |
DJ Admin are you telling me that there has been population movement and ethnic cleansing in Macedonia, and in general the Balkans? Of course it has, and of course Makedonia didn't have the same ethnic composition as it has now. In my knowledge there were many, bulgarians and other Slavic speaking tribes including serbians and your ppl and of course Turks. 1913-28 was a violent period of rearrangements in the Balkans. Greece won some territory but we also lost land that has been considered Greek and as you mentioned about 1:000.000+ refugees were forced out of Minor Asia. That is totally accurate. What is not accurate however, is your claim over our land. Your tribes lost the war, in fact they didn't even fight, and have no more historical bonds with the glorious Macedomian past than we do. At least we speak a very similar to his language language, while your language is ridiculously slavic. Even if your blood contains elements of their blood, Alexander would be ashamed of your current culture and ethnic identity (language, aplhabet which is the cyrillic that Greek-Byzantines gave to you because you didn't know how to right back in 400-500 AC and many other elements).
And dude before you delve into your inaccurate resources originating from Skopjans named Popovic, or Crookic or Forgich or I don't know what, please "read my lips". I was born in 78 and knew Macedonia as Macedonia ever since, who are you to tell me that we started calling it like this since 1988? This lye is so obvious that nullifies all these pages of false arguments. Again we greeks have always used the name Macedonia for this geographical division of Greece since the time we stepped in Thessaloniki and integrated it in the country. And we have always referred to it, since the ancient times, as Macedonia.
Patria...patria is a greek word and means fatherly. We use it to call our motherlands. If you are to steal our vocabulary, at least accept that what you are speaking is in a large degree taken from the Greek language. However, no matter ho many greek words you use and how much you forge history, serbians and bulgarians will always be able to be partially understand you when you speak and this means something... (A friend of mine is Bulgarian one guy we know comes from Skopja
It's the last time I write in this forum, obviously there is no room for conversation here, especially under the unreasonable claims some of you have expressed over my country. I do learned something though. I learned that many Northern Macedonians are fanatized and non-peace loving people that wish to see the borders in the Balkans changed based on ridiculous historical evidence. Be careful what you wish though. If it is not Greece that will eventually crash you, I am sure it is going to be the Albanians. And I don't think that the Americans are going to control the region for much longer, by trying to divide it. Europe is waking up and opposing the aggressive American policy all over the world. So expect no "divine" intervention from across the atlantic when disaster strikes your country again. |
| DJ_SHEMA |
Son
Whatever, feel free to leave. Before you do so let me quote few words of wisdom that your precious and favorite historian Eugene Borsa has written.
Alexander I was referred as "Phillhellenic", which means " a friend of greeks". Why would somebody of greek origin be called a friend of greeks? Eugene asks the same question.
Eugene, on pg 78 of his book discusses that there is not known that the Macedonian language is a dialect from the greek. Eugene also states "The evidence suggest that Macedonian was distinct from the ordinary Attic Greek used as a language of the court and diplomacy".
Also a papyrus that is considered to be a fragment from Arrian's "History of the Successors" states that "Eumenes was sending forth a man called Xennias who was MAcedonian in speech to negotiate with the Macedonian army of Neoptolemus". All of this is in the book.
Throughout his book, Eugene reffers to the Macedonians, Thracians, Illirs, Greeks. Under greeks he consideres Spartans, Athinians and other greek tribes, but never the Macedonians.
I mean, you have to be blind and brainwashed not to notice that Eugene considers that the Macedonians were a separate and independent "tribe" than the Greeks. He refutes several of the greek theories that have been devised to demonstrate that the Macedonian royal family originates from the greek Argos tribe.
The truth is that Macedonians and Greeks were different ethnic tribes. All the tombs that showed the Macedonian identity are continuously destroyed by the greeks and only the prohellenic ones remain. Sure, the language of the current Macedonians is slavic, but that doesn't mean that we are not descendants of the Anciant MAcedonians. Look at the bulgars, the come from asia, but yet the speak a slavic language.
And son, Kiril i Metodija were Macedonians and came from the Macedonian region and the Macedonian sity of Solun. Why was the name changed to Thessaloniki and many other cities in Aegan MAcedonia were renamed to sound more greek? Have you ever wondered that? What happened to the names like Voden?
For years you have stolen our history and pride and propagated to the world that it was a greek achievement to conquer the world under Alexander II the Macedonian. But the truth is, you were enslaved under the Macedonians at that time, and only part of your soldiers were used. Why are you so upset when you get close to the truth? Why was there a mass naming convention once Macedonia became undependent? The airport, the city square, everything turned into Makedonia in Northern Greece whereas before such naming was very, very rare.
Propaganda is a very powerfull weapon, and you greeks are the masters of it. |
| Magdon |
Ovoj izgleda e nekoj si spiun (kakvo klishe a? "spiun" [:D]
) Ama veruvajte moze da e. Vladata se sprema da najde nekoj kompromis so Grcija vo vrska so imeto zashto ova priznavanje beshe samo privremeno za referendumot ,vi teknuva, i vaka izgleda go sprema javnoto mislenje za REPUBLIC OF NORTHERN MACEDONIA, ejjj...AJ BUDALI! |
| DJ_SHEMA |
posle tolkava bitka i patenje da se vikame northern macedonia? Bash sega odkoga ne prizna i amerika? Magdon, a ti od kade se javuvash? |
| Magdon |
Od "nashata" "mila" "osboditelka"[}:)]. Ovie tri zbora i mislam deka ke ti e jasno,a? |
| DJ_SHEMA |
ne, ne mi e jasno. |
| Magdon |
Dobro...Od Bugarija. |
| DJ_SHEMA |
A shto rabotish vo Bugarija? |
| Pro Patria 2 |
again with that nazi-s.hit "all words in all languages come from greek language"bla bla bla
Pro Patria in Latin means "for the fatherland"(za tatkovinata) |
| OooOo |
My Big Fat GEEK Wedding - and there you go :)
|
| mako |
The Greek language survived partly thanks to the Byzantine institutions. The Old Greeks or Hellenes however, didn't survive. |
| vulgaren |
Is to accept the reality and recognize Macedonia as a republic of Macedonia and help the country to enter EU quick.
In that way Greece will gain a great friend and show itself as a great strenght and turn the page to a new beggining.
Greece has nothing to lose - it is only matter of time when Macedonians will be recognized by the rest of the world.
We Macedonians will gain little but remember the greeks as our natural friends if you decise to accept us. |
| msirivia |
The most onvious problem the Greeks have with these non-Greeks claiming to be ancient Macedonians, is the adoption of a Greek name for a non-greek people (Macedonia/ns). Ancient macedonians were Greek, but these people are not. One only need look to the names of ancient Macedonians - they are Greek! For instance: Alexander (the Great). 'alex' = protects + 'andros' = man. ("he who protects men") Or even Philip. 'philo' = friendly + 'ippos' = horse. ("he who is friendly to horses").
Another problem, are the names of the region. The slavs often call them by different names - for instance Thessaloniki becomes 'Solun' and Edessa becomes 'Voden'. Unfortunately for them, there is proof that these places were commonly known, many centuries ago, by their Greek names. One only need look to the New Testament to see Paul's letters to the Thessalonians...
Naming a country after a neighboring region is obviously a strategy to try to destabilize the region, in the hope that the country will absorb the neighboring region. That was Tito's policy that was aiming in obtaining a passage to the Aegean. Even after the great exapnsion by Philip II and Alexander the Great in the 400's, when Macedonia was the most powerful Greek state, it was only at very most 10% of the FYROM territory was originally part of the Greek Kingdom. Yet FYROM passports no longer even stamp-in travellers from Greek cities, as they claim they are all the same people...One individual, a non-Greek Macedonian, Ljupce Georgievski, takes the matter to an even higher political standing: "The Macedonia of Piriin, the Aegean and the Vardar is not Greater Macedonia. We shall be talking of Greater Macedonia when we claim Belgrade, Sofa, Thessaly, Valona and elsewhere." [Borba, Nov7. 1990]
Yet even your language betrays you. It is more Bulgarian and Serbian than Greek. It is here that non-Greek 'Macedonians' question the linguistics of the ancient Macedonians. In Arrhianos, there are instances showing Alexander speaking Greek to the soldiers - which suggests either a Mother Tongue, or a great familiarity with the language (to be using it in such an important matter, all of the soldiers would have to be close to fluent in it). A Greek dialect has even been found on artefacts and tombs in Macedonia. Historians, while claiming that they do not really know if the Ancient Macedonians were actually Greek or not, freely admit that by the Roman Period, Macedonia was fully homogenized with Hellenic culture. However FYROM currently teaches their youth the 'new, revised' history of Macedonia.
These non-ethnic Macedonians even adopt ancient Macedonian symbols which don't belong to them. The Vergina Sun (which is featured on the Macedonian Flag), was Philip's Dynastic emblem. It symbolized the birth of the Macedonian nation and the first time that the Greek mainland, with the same language and culture, was united. Excavations in Greece show this symbol to have been used throughout history, and prior to the slavic claims of Macedonian ethnicity, was unique to Greece. Now what is the reason for that? Could it possibly be that the non-Greeks have no right claiming the ancestry of the ancient Macedonians? FYROM's first President, Kiro Gligorov, even pointed this out: "we are slavs who came to this country in the 6th century...we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians." Then why call yourselves and the language "Macedonia/n"? Or use Macedonian symbols? Does the fact that you reside in a small portion of ancient Macedonian territory give you the right to monopolize Macedonian heritage? Of course it doesn't.
You do, of course, attempt to answer such questions. You claim that Greece stole Macedonian history. The question we ask, is why. Greece has one of the most influential and widely-respected histories of any country in the world. Why would it need to steal history from another country, especially one that had been long Hellenized?
And a truly stupid accusation often given for the lack of archaeological evidence supporting FYROM views, is that Greek archaeoligists destroy any evidence as soon as it is excavated, so as not to compromise the position of 'Imperiaalist Greece'. One question: what about the evidence found that supports the greek position? Philip II tomb, for instance. Did the Greeks 'doctor' the symbols and inscriptions???
Overall, one can clearly see the reality of the issue at hand - Ancient Macedonia was Hellenic. It may not have been part of the main core of Greek city states, mostly because of the geographical distance, but those people had very similar culture, religion, language with the rest of the Greeks. Furthermore the quickly accepted all elements of the Greek culture and took it even further. They spread this culture to the rest of the known world.
Despite the unquestionable historical evidence, we never claimed that the ancient land of Macedonia should be returned to us. We respect your country and the established borders. We respect the fact that Macedonia is inhabited by several great nations that define themselves in a different way than we define ourselves. We would never claim parts of Macedonia in your country or Bulgaria, like we will never claim that southern Albania which has a strong greek minority is Greek or Minor Asia and Istanbul is Greek because Konstantinoupolis was the capital of a great Hellenized Empire or because so many Greeks used to live there in the past. This is the past and now we have no right over these lands, which through the normal process of history belong now to other nations who fought for their freedom and independence.
We Greeks wish to live in peace with the rest of the nations of the region. We want to see everyone prosper including Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia-Modenegro, FYROM. Yet we expect from our fellow Macedonias to respect the fact that Ancient Macedonia has a long history that should not to be falsified. All the nations in the region have in one way or the other been injected with the glorious blood of ancient Macedonians. And it is my strong belief that the people who reside in this glorious area should have every right to call themselved Macedonias, much like US citizens call themselves Americans even though they were not there 700 hundred years ago. But keep in mind you are not the only macedonians. There is no need for anyone to change history. There is no point into trying to convince the world that Alexander's mother tongue was Slavic.
The nation of Northern Macedonia is a strong and a proud nation without having to steal other nations' history. There is no point into trying to dispute the outcomes of the balkan wars, as its outcome has been by official treaties and the current borders are universally accepted. Greece now has southern macedonia, or Aegean Macedonia as you call it, not because Alexander used to speak Greek and his teacher was Aristotle. We have this part of Macedonia because we fought bravely against the Turkish and the Bulgarians at the beginning of the Century. If all the nations in the Balkans had not fought for their independence we would still be under the Ottomans and we would have faced the danger of ethnic extinction. These are historical facts and there is nothing more realistic than history. Emotions, nationalistic ideas, ideas of Great Greece, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria etc do not fit this period.
What I am trying to say is that considering yourselves the only rightful heirs of a glorious heritage will not help you in any way.
Having territorial claims over our Macedonia and believing that this area is inhabited by people of your nation is absurd.
It can only lead your country to isolation. Instead, you should do your best to establish friendly, constructive relations with your neighbors. Nationalism and aggressiveness is not something that the rest of the Balkan nations can accept from anyone. Especially Greece can show no tolerance, because we are a country that now enjoys the fruits of peace and stability and has no wish to return to the dark situation the rest of the Balkan countries are.
However, have no doubt about it, if it comes down to that, we have the power and the will to defend ourselves from any enemy. We will not accept, aggression by anyone either northern or eastern neighbor. We are most ready to punish anyone that has imperialistic ambitions in the Balkans.
We will protect the fatherland ("patria edafi") and historical heritage with our blood, and teach the aggressors that the only way to function in this area is peaceful cooperation and civilized behavior. The freedom of our part of Macedonia and the historical truth is not negotiable.
What's wrong with "Gorna Macedonia" (forgive my spelling here) or "Northern Macedonia"? Why your goverment won't accept them?
|
| OooOo |
quote:
Originally posted by msirivia
What's wrong with "Gorna Macedonia" (forgive my spelling here) or "Northern Macedonia"? Why your goverment won't accept them?
There is no such thing as Gorna Macedonia. I AM Macedonian NOT Northern Macedonian. No such nation my friend. [;)]
Explain this to me:
- Greece -> Macedonia problem
- Greece -> Turkey problem
- Greece -> Albania problem
- Greece -> Cyprus problem
Isn't this obvious that you are the one with problems, not the neighboors around you?
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| Thunder from down under |
since when did Macedonia become a greek name ?1913?
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| Whitebaby |
I used to travel to Greece very often... at least once a year. Before the sanctions I've never seen sign with MACEDONIA on it... after that when I went go Greece signs with MACEDONIA on it were on every corner. I mean COME ON!!! Give me a brake!!! Even a toddler won’t buy that! |
| concrete |
And I don't think that the Americans are going to control the region for much longer, by trying to divide it. Europe is waking up and opposing the aggressive American policy all over the world. So expect no "divine" intervention from across the atlantic when disaster strikes your country again.
Ne mi e jasno kako ovie kako msirivia segogas pocnuvaat so mazno i na kraj ke tupnat nesto vakvo i ke si go pokazat pravoto lice.
Nekoj spomna spion ,ama ako e mora da e od nekoja diletantska skola ,so amerikanska provinencija , onie od sorta ne se otkrivaat bas taka naivno.Inaku odamna ne sum sretnal vaka harmonizirana prikazna ,navistina kako da e zombiran.
Jas ova namerno na makedonski, samo za nasa dusa. Mislam deka nema sto da se dikutira so nego.
Kako sto ni najavi ostanuva da si ja cekame disaster strike , pa koj ke prezivee ke raskazuva. |
| msirivia |
Macedonia the province, had its name Makedonia in the modern Greek state long before you created your country from the ruins of Yugoslavia. It is true that the forging of history that followed the creation of your country, made Greeks more aware of their Macedonian past, and as a responce to your nationalism, they most likely tried to emphasize on the fact that Macedonia is Greek. Just find an old map of Greece and you will see that we have always named it "Makedonia".
Like we name the province southern of it Thessalia and the province of Athens Sterea Ellada.
Are you telling me that I have false recollection of being taught at elementary school back in the late 70's that Thessaloniki is in Makedonia?
If I remember correctly we are not the ones that had to fight Albanians in our soil 3 years ago, so please don't tell me about problems with albania. If you ever make your dream true and get your great Macedonia, you will become neighbors with Turkey and see by yourselves what it's like. Of course, this would never happen but I am just saying to make my point.
We have no problems with Bulgaria, no problems at all, simply because they are a peace loving nation that like use, they learned from the mistakes of the past. They have much more important issues to deal with than idiotic nationalisms. Unlike you, they do care that they have 50% unemployment and that they are as poor as church mice... and they try to improve their position by working together with Greece and the E.U. They are a reasonable, peace loving nation with great history of their own, that no Tito invented for them.
You my friends however, most likely do not have such a bright future, because simply you don't have a past. You don't know your roots, you don't know who you are. And nations with no historical memory do not last. So my advice to all the young and educated ppl over there, is come go to the US for studies and try your best to stay there. Because your pseudomacedonia has no future at all. At least here in the US, in a few years we will acquire a real citizenship and nationality, the American.
What you guys are doing would only to compare to white Americans claiming that they are descendants of the Mohicans and Apaches...
With no respect any more,
Michalis |
| OooOo |
quote:
Originally posted by msirivia
If I remember correctly we are not the ones that had to fight Albanians in our soil 3 years ago, so please don't tell me about problems with albania. If you ever make your dream true and get your great Macedonia, you will become neighbors with Turkey and see by yourselves what it's like. Of course, this would never happen but I am just saying to make my point.
True true. Poor Greeks. [:D]
quote:
We have no problems with Bulgaria, no problems at all
Of course. You need to have one good neighboor :)
quote:
You my friends however, most likely do not have such a bright future, because simply you don't have a past. You don't know your roots, you don't know who you are.
Sure we do, your country is using a part of it - just temporary [:D]
quote:
So my advice to all the young and educated ppl over there, is come go to the US for studies and try your best to stay there. Because your pseudomacedonia has no future at all. At least here in the US, in a few years we will acquire a real citizenship and nationality, the American.
Keep your advice for yourself, since we are not interested [:o)]
quote:
With no respect any more,
Michalis
Still respecting [;)] |
| concrete |
You my friends however, most likely do not have such a bright future, .........At least here in the US, in a few years we will acquire a "real" citizenship and nationality, the American.
He,he !!! My old nose is still sensitive , he,he!!!
Key word: "We" .... yes,yes,we will he,he!!!!
As OooOo said : we are not interested !!!!
citizenship : koj samo drug spomna nesto takvo ovie denovi , Batbayan???? |
| Magdon |
Abe mafni go...Grcko gomno. |
| concrete |
Problemot e sto ne e grcko!!! |
| msirivia |
sorry typo...I meant you, in case "you" are not smart enough enough to infer it from the context..haha |
| concrete |
Ej ,vi rekov, kako klen e ,ja goltna jadicata do stomak!!!
A pojma si nema od fantomskiot makedonski!!! He,he!!!
Sorry for joke , nothing personally. |
| Magdon |
Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the ``older'' Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the ``older'' Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
[url][/url]www.makedonika.org
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| msirivia |
I am not slavic, therefore I don't understand slavic. |
| Magdon |
[img][/img]C:\Documents and Settings\Client\My Documents\My Pictures |
| Magdon |
Despite the views in some parts of the scientific community today that the ancient Macedonians were part of the Hellenes, the idea that ancient Macedonians were a separate nation is becoming increasingly accepted among the scientific circles around the world7). The ancient Greek historians clearly stated that the Macedonians were a separate people from the Hellenes. The Greek historian Arrian (I AD) wrote that there was a "racial rivalry" between the ancient Macedonians and the Greeks8).
There are a certain number of arguments and strong indications in support of the existence of (at least partial) ethno-cultural links between the ancient Macedonians and Veneti.
Before presenting some of these arguments, it is required to affirm that the Veneti were among the oldest nations in Europe. Narratively the Veneti were initially mentioned as people from Asia Minor, and later on as Balkan people as well. Furthermore, there are number of testimonials and evidences that the ancient people Veneti were the ancestors of the so called "Slavs"10). This practically means that the ancient Macedonians and the so called "Slavs" should have (at least partial) common ethno-cultural background. Following are only some of the arguments in support of this as a wider elaboration is required to fully cover this topic and the space on this occasion is limited.
The ancient Macedonians used their own vernacular, Macedonian language. There are number of testimonials from the ancient historians in support of this fact. For instance, the Greek historian Plutarch (I AD), describing a quarrel between Alexander The Great and one of his friends wrote that Alexander "jumped on his feet and in Macedonian called on his shield-bearers"11).
In his biography of Marc Anthony, Plutarch mentioned that Macedonian was the mother tongue of the Egyptian queen Cleopatra VII and of her ancestors from the Macedonian dynasty Ptolemais12).
The Latin historian Quintus Curtius Rufus (I AD) also testified that the ancient Macedonians spoke a separate, Macedonian language. He described the trial of the Macedonian Philotas for contriving a plot to murder Alexander The Great. The plot was discovered and Philotas was publicly interrogated by Alexander. Describing this event, Quintus Curtius Rufus clearly stated that the Macedonians spoke separate, Macedonian language13).
An evidence about the distinction of the Macedonian language was found on fragment of a papyrus which was thought to be a part of the lost work "History of the successors" by the ancient Greek historian Arrian. In this papyrus (PSI XII.1284) an episode from the history of ancient Macedonia has been described where the distinction of Macedonian language has been clearly emphasized. It has been described in this text how the secretary of Philip and Alexander of Macedon, Eumenes was: "…sending forth a man called Xennias who was Macedonian in speech…" to negotiate with the Macedonian army of Neoptolemeus. This event took place around 321 BC.14)
That the Macedonian was a distinct vernacular characteristic to the Macedonians confirm the anti-Macedonian speeches given by the great orator from Athens, Demosthenes. In his work "Philippic" Demosthenes gave the following insulting remark about the Macedonian King Philip II of Macedon:
"That man Philip, not only he is not a Greek, but also he does not have anything in common with the Greeks. If only he would have been a barbarian from a decent country - but he is not even that. He is a scabby creature from Macedonia - a land that one can not even bring a slave that is worth something from".15)
The question why Demosthenes named Philip as a barbarian becomes imminent. Majority of the scientists believe that the term "barbarians" in the ancient period was used to refer mainly to people that spoke language that Greeks could not understand, usually accompanied by a dose of disregard towards the culture of the people speaking that language. It is well known that all the people that did not speak Greek were named "barbarians", whereas the Greeks from the city-states used the word "xenoi" when referring to one-another.16)
Demosthenes was not alone in naming the Macedonians "barbarians". Ancient Greek historian Isocrates also called the Macedonians "barbarians".17)
The Greek Trasymachus, in his speech before the Larisians in V BC named the Macedonian king Archelaos "barbarian" in relation to the Greeks Larisians.18)
However, it stands for a fact that the elites in power in ancient Macedonia at a certain stage of the development of Macedonia took up the Greek literary language and some elements of the Greek culture (religion, onomastics etc). It needs to be emphasized that this does not mean at all that the Macedonians were Hellenes. First thing to be said in relation to this is that the Greek literary language at the time was also used by many other nations that were not Hellenes: Thracians, Jews, Ilyrians, even the Romans, all these people at some stage in the ancient period wrote in old Greek language. Such examples can be witnessed even today: the Irish speak and write in English and are not English; Brazilians speak and write in Portugese and are not Portugese etc.
As far as adopting the Old Greek language by the Macedonian royalty is concerned, it is a fact that this occurred at a certain stage of development of the Macedonian state. Supporting this fact is the non-existence of not even a single inscription in Greek on the territory of Macedonia to be dated from and before V BC, which matches with the period prior to the partial adoption of the Greek culture in Macedonia. The fact that many of the inscriptions in Greek found (from a later date though) contain many grammatical errors, is by itself a proof in support of the truth, that is the Old Greek language was foreign to the Macedonians.
What was like the ancient Macedonian language?
There are only a certain number of preserved words, and from the current knowledge the structure of the ancient Macedonian can not be fully synthesised. Most of the ancient Macedonian words are different to the ancient Greek language words, however there are a few that are similar. For the words from the ancient Macedonian language that are similar to the ancient Greek language words are believed to be taken on from Greek.19) In fact, this occurrence was and still is characteristic for all languages in the world. In the Macedonian language today terms are adopted from foreign languages mainly where there is no authentic terminology or analogy. For instance: antena (antenna); satelit (satellite); mobilen telefon (mobile/cellular phone); kompjuter (computer) etc. These foreign words are being adapted in accordance with the modern Macedonian phonetic system. This needs to be taken into account when analysing the ancient Macedonian language. The authenticity and the nature of a language can not be possibly determined only by the words that language adopted from another language.
One needs to bear in mind that almost all the preserved ancient Macedonian words reached modern age through their Greek transcript which makes it more difficult to identify their true meaning. It is important that the phenomenon "Interpretato Graeca" is mentioned here, that is greekifying of all the foreign words: nouns, verbs, and especially names. A specific characteristic of this process is adding the suffix "os" or "s" to the foreign words, and this will be discussed later in this paper.
Despite all this, it is very interesting to note that many of the authentic ancient Macedonian words, according to their etymology and pronunciation, have a striking resemblance to the appropriate words used in the modern Macedonian language (and other so called "Slav" languages).
For instance, the word "tshelniku" which translated in English means foremost is a very interesting case. The British historian Hammond mentioned its etymology and said that the word "tshelniku" in the ancient Macedonian language had a meaning of "leader of a group". Hammond says that this word was translated into Greek only in the 14th century as "phylarchos".20)
The word "tshelnik" with completely identical etymology and pronunciation has been registered in the so called "old Slavic language" in Macedonia as early as 11th century! Proof of this is the entry of Byzantine chronicle writer Kekavmen where he described the events surrounding the anti-Byzantine uprising of Petar Deljan in 11th century. He said that in the language of the rebels "the strategist is called tshelnik"!21) It is known that Kekavmen was fluent in the "language of the Slavs" in Macedonia therefore he could translate the Greek word "strategist" as "tshelnik" (the strategist was a high military rank in Byzantine). It is even more interesting that the word "tshelnik" with identical etymology and pronunciation is being used in todays' Macedonian language and in other "Slav" languages, as well! This can not be a coincidence, especially considering the fact that there could be hundreds of thousands etymological meanings that a single word can represent, and in this instance there is an identical etymological meaning for a word that has also an identical pronunciation.
The remark that the middle age Macedonians simply borrowed this word from the language of ancient Macedonians and used it in 11th century is not valid. Assuming that it is so, becomes impossible to explain the fact that this word is present in the contemporary Croatian literary language. Have they inherited this word from the ancient Macedonians as well? It is the same with the contemporary Serbian and Bulgarian literary languages where this word is also present with the same pronunciation and etymology.
It is highly likely that through analysis of the word "tshelniku" some other characteristics of the ancient Macedonian language could be identified, considering the fact that in the contemporary Macedonian language this word is deducted from the noun "tshelo" - forehead.
As mentioned previously, the non-Greek words were recorded by the ancient Greeks on as-heard basis without analysing the form of the word. Due to the fact the word "tshelniku" had been recorded inclusive of the vowel "u" at the end, it is anticipated that "tshelniku" was recorded by the ancient Greeks in its vocative form. The vocative form of the noun "tshelnik" in the contemporary Macedonian language is precisely "tshelniku". Is it maybe that the Greeks used to hear the word "tshelniku" every time a Macedonian addressed the leader, therefore recorded this word without realising that they were recording its vocative form?
Another word that is also very interesting in this regard is the word "phoinikos", which is related to the warfare22). Indubitable this word is very much alike the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" meaning "soldier". There could be a little doubt that these words have a common origin. Why is this so? In the ancient Greek language the consonant "v" did not exist23). The conclusion is imminent that the true pronunciation of the word "phoinikos" would be "voinikos" ("ph" replaced with "v"). In addition to this, as established earlier in this text, ancient Greeks added the suffix "os" to a lot of non-Greek words they recorded. If the word "phoinikos" had been subjected to the "Interpretato Graeca" phenomenon i.e. if the suffix "os" had been added to this non-Greek word, by taking out the Greek suffix we arrive at the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" (soldier). Not only the pronunciation, but also the etymology of the word "voinik" is very similar to that of the word "phoinikos" and is located in the domain of warfare.
An abundance of water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary Macedonian language. The corresponding ancient Macedonian word for this is the word "vedy". The Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical "Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa, may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave the name "Edessa", was originally a Brygian city and its old name was Vedy which means abundance of water24). Furthermore, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote that ancient Macedonians had a great respect towards the water (springs, wells, rivers) and they worshiped the Macedonian divinity they called Vedy25). In this instance as well, the similarity between pronunciation of a contemporary Macedonian and an ancient Macedonian word is undeniable, and again their etymology is identical.
The contemporary Macedonian verb "pesh" (walk) in ancient Macedonian would have been pronounced "pez"26).
"Pella"27) is another ancient Macedonian word. The etymology of this word is "a stone". The corresponding word in contemporary Macedonian language is "spila", which is similar in pronunciation with the ancient Macedonian word "pella".
The ancient Macedonian word recorded through its Greek interpretation as "skoidos" bears the meaning of judges. In contemporary Macedonian this meaning is conveyed using the word "sudii"28).
There are number of ancient Macedonian words with undetermined etymology which in their pronunciation undeniably resemble contemporary Macedonian words, as well as words from other so called "Slavic languages".
A very good example is the word "arotos" which ancient Macedonians used as an epithet to the god Heracles29). Its etymology is undetermined to-date, however if the suffix "s" is deleted this word is practically identical with the adjective "aroto" - "the old one" (archaism to a degree) from the present Macedonian language. According to a legend Heracles was considered to be the oldest ascendant of the Macedonians. Can the answer for the etymology of the word "arotos" be located in this legend, by referring to Heracles as "the old one" or "aroto(s)"?
It is inevitable that the Macedonian Phalanx is mentioned in this discussion. The strongest weapon of the phalanx was the long spear called "sarissa". It is very interesting to analyse the etymology of the word "sarissa". The first and obvious question is whether the first letter of this word, the letter "s", is authentic or perhaps there should be the letter "z" instead? It is well known that the name of the Brygian (ancient Macedonian) goddess was recorded as both "Semela" and "Zemela". If this is applied to the word "sarissa" i.e. the letter "s" is replaced with the letter "z" it will transform into the word "zarissa". An exciting assumption emerges regarding the etymology of this word. The reflexive verb in its dialectical form "zari se" in the contemporary Macedonian is identical in pronunciation with the word "zarisa" (thrust itself in, pierce itself into). This is of course an assumption, which nevertheless has a solid base in the information presented in relation to the pronunciation and etymology of the words discussed previously.
By analysing ancient Macedonian words that have a determined etymology, it is possible to make some assumptions and even draw some conclusions regarding certain grammatical forms of the ancient Macedonian language. This forms are identical with the forms of the contemporary Macedonian language.
It is worth to mention that there were words in the ancient Macedonian language that (at least without performing a deeper analysis) appear to have a little in common with the contemporary Macedonian language. However, the presence of these words does not deny the existence of words from the contemporary Macedonian language in the ancient Macedonian language. In fact, for some of these words it is more than obvious that they had existed in the ancient Macedonian vocabulary.
We should also turn attention to a portion of the ancient Macedonian onomastics. At the same time it is necessary to keep in mind two things. First, there is no doubt that the ancient Macedonians (mainly those from the highest circles) accepted part of the Hellenic onomastics. But in fact a large number of Macedonian names were different than those in the Hellenic onomasticon, while a considerable number of these are reminiscent of the later Macedonian onomasticon, or are derived from words of Macedonian or from so called "Slavic" (Venetic) origin.
A second thing that needs to be kept in mind is the fact that ancient Macedonian personal names up to our own time mainly achieved written form through their Greek (and in a smaller number Latin as well) transcription. We can surmise that a considerable number of these names were given the added Greek suffixes "os" and "s", and more rarely "us". There are a lot of proofs for this, but here for lack of space we shall only mention that, in our research we have noted over 350 personal names written by ancient Greek authors, which names belonged to various non-Greek peoples. The overwhelming number of these Persian, Thracian, Illyrian, Egyptian, Scythian, Brygian, Libyan, Indian, and other personal names (but also toponyms and other words) were artificially Hellenized by the old Greek authors, adding the Greek suffix "os", and where appropriate "s". Sometimes the old Greek authors went to such lengths that the foreign name was totally changed in the process. Thus, for example, the Egyptian Pharaoh Khu-fu in Greek sources became written as CheopS (with the attached Greek suffix "s"). Later the Indian King Chandragupta was written by Greeks as SandroticOS, and so forth. Sometimes the only change to the name would be the Greek ending "os" or "s". Thus, for example, the name of the Egyptian King Psamtic was written by Greeks as PsametihOS. The Macedonian name Ata, as well, became written as both Ata and AtaS (Hellenized by addition of the suffix "s"), etc.
We've said that we have identified hundreds of such examples of artificially Hellenized non-Greek names (but also other non-Greek words) by old Greek writers, which for lack of space here, will not be mentioned. According to such practices of that time it happened that peoples from quite disparate cultures, ethnic origins (and even races) such as the Persians, Egyptians, Illyrians, Arabians, Libyans, Thracians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Indians, Macedonians, and others, all had identical (Greek) endings on their names. This is so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Therefore, in the following discussion particular attention will be paid to the roots of personal names, given the extensive artificial use of the Greek suffixes "os" and "s" (as well as "us").
In the ancient Macedonian onomasticon we will include several Brygian names (most of them found in Macedonia) as well. This is for the simple reason that Brygians played a major role in the ethnogenesis of the ancient Macedonians30). But to pass on to concrete instances. We will mention a portion of the ancient Macedonian names which are the same or very similar to later Macedonian names or words, as well as names and words of the other so called "Slavic languages". Most of these names are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon 31) .
Ata(s). The root of this name contains the noun "at", which in the so called "Old Slavic language" meant "a horse". We note that the ancient Macedonians were great horsemen and horses were very importaint for them. Such names allready exsists in onomasticons of other peoples (for example Bulgarians have their popular name Asparuh, which means "speed horse" in Old Bulgarian language). The same name "Ata" is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Apell(es). The root of this name contains the noun "apel" (a call) which we have in the present day Macedonian language.
Atarhi(as). The root of this name contains the noun "atar". This is a Macedonian archaism for the word "love". Names that contain the word "love" exist in a majority of lexicons.
Bere(s). The root of this name contains the verb "bere" (to pick up) that exists today in the Macedonian language and in other "Slavic" languages. Also in the present day Macedonian onomasticon there are names derived from verbs. The name "Bere" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Crater(us)32). The root of this name contains the word "krater" (crater) which exsists in the present day Macedonian and other "Slavic" languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name "Krate".
Caran(us)33). This name might be connected to the present day Macedonian noun "kruna" (a crown). The name "Karanche" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Dada. The noun "dada" in the present day Macedonian language means "older sister". The name "Dada" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Daron. This is a name for the ancient Macedonian god of healing. Its etymology is known, and it means "he that gives health." This means that the name of this god contains the Macedonian noun "dar" (a gift). The names Darun, Dare, Dara and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Del(us). The verb "dela" (to work) exists in the so called "Old Slavic language", as well as in several present day "Slavic languages". The name "Dele" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Dimno(s). The adjective "dimno" exists in the present day Macedonian language and still means "steamy The names Dimna, Dimon, Dimnak and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Diplai(os)34). A name of an upper Macedonian (Payonian) ruler. In his name is the noun "dipla" that in dialectal form in the present day Macedonian language means a bouquet of flowers. The noun "dipla" is also used as a designation for a type of old Macedonian instrument.
Dita. The noun exists in Slavic languages as "dite" or "dete", which means "a child". In 19th century Macedonian onomasticon was recordered the same name "Dita".
Dita(s). This is an obvious form of the preceding name Dita, but it has been Hellenized with the suffix "s".
Dud(es). The noun "dud" (a type of wood) exists in several "Slavic" languages. The names Dude and Duda are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Glaukia(s)35). Could this name be derived from the noun "glava" (a head)? In 19th century Macedonia one finds the male name Glavko.36)
Gauan(us). This is an old originally ancient Macedonian name, first mentioned by Herodotus. It has obvious similarities to the noun "gaval", that represents an archaism for the "kaval" (a short Macedonian wind instrument). In 15th century Macedonia one finds the male names: Gavale and Gavala.
Kopria. This name has possible connections to the noun "kopra" (a dill). It is a well-known practice to derive personal names from those of the plant world. In 16th century Macedonia one finds the female name Kopra.
Lasten. This name may be connected to the noun "lastovica" (in Serbian: "lasta"), which means "a swallow". The name Laste is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon.
Lyka. This female Macedonian name, which exists in the present day language, is possibly derived from the noun "lika" (a face, pretty face). The name Lika is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon.
Milo. This name was mentioned by Plutarch as a name of a Macedonian military leader in the Macedonian-Roman conflicts. This name exists to the present day in the Macedonian onomasticon. It has an obvious identification with the present day Macedonian adjective "milo" (dear), from which a number of names are (Milosh, Milko, Milka).
Mesti(us). The root of this name contains the noun (archaism) "mesti" (small childrens' shoes made from wool). In later Macedonian onomasticon there were also names derived from pieces of clothes.
Mamina. This name fully corresponds to the present day Macedonian adjective "mamina" (the one who belongs to her mother). In 18th and 19th century Macedonia one finds the female name Maminka.
Mama. This is identical to the present day Macedonian noun "mama", which in any case, exists in other languages. In 15th century Macedonia one finds the female name Mamica (deminutive for Mama).
Mama(s). It is obvious that this is a Hellenized variant on the previous name.
Manta. The noun "mantija", that exists in the present day Macedonian language represents a type of long garment. In 19th century Macedonia one finds the same female name Manta.
Mantyes. This is probably a variant of the previous name. The spoken form of this word (without the suffix "s") is still closer to the noun "mantija".
Med(es). The root of this name contains the noun "med" (honey), which exists in todays' Macedonian language as well in most other "Slavic" languages. The name Mede is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Myrcin(us). Name of a king of an ancient Macedonian tribe Edoni, mentioned by Herodotus. If we remove the Greek "us", we get the name Myrcin (Mirkin). To the present day in the Macedonian language there is the female name "Mirka" (derived from the noun "mir", which means peace), while "Mirkin" is an adjective which means "The one who belongs to Mirka". Among the Macedonians, right up to the 20th century, men frequently received names derived from their mother's name (Kanin son of Kana; Mirkin son of Mirka and etc.). Could that be the case with this name? The names Mirkan, Mirin and so on are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Mucati. The verb "mucati" exists in a number of the "Slavic" languages. In the Macedonian language the verb "mucna" means "to speak". Maybe this name can be connected to the noun "mucka" (snout). If we read "c" as "k", then maybe the root of this name can be connected to the noun "mukach" (which means a cry baby). The names Mucan Muce, Mucko, Mukan, Muko are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Nana. The noun "nana" in the Macedonian language today is used to signify an older female relative. In dialectal form "nana" takes the form of the verb, to sleep. The name Nana is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Pita. The noun "pita" (a type of food), can be found in a number of "Slavic" languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name Pito. There are other Macedonian names derived from the food: Piroshka, Pituluca and others.
Pittak(os). Could this be a variant of the previous name? The noun "pitach" exists in the present day Macedonian language, with the meaning, "one who begs". The names Pito and Pitako are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Plator. The noun "plat" exists in the present day Macedonian language as a type of high quality cloth. The suffix "or" is encountered in other male personal names, which means that it is independent of the root "plat". The name Platin is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Pyri(as).The root of this name could be connected to the noun "pir" (merriment). The name Piri is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Pyrh(os). This is probably a variant of the previous name.
Perustae. The noun "perustija" in the present day Macedonian language means an iron spit for cooking meat over a fire, an item that had great significance in the preparation of food in the past. The name Peruska is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Rumi37). A female name that could possibly be connected to the adjective "rumena" (ripe red). In todays' Macedonian onomasticon there is name "Rumi", which is short form of the name "Rumena" (ripe red).
Sita. A name that is identical to the present day Macedonian adjective "sita" (eating to satisfaction). The male name Sitko is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Sopol(is).This ancient Macedonian name is mentioned by the Greek historian Arrian as the name of a Macedonian officer in the army of Alexander the Great. It obviously contains the root "sopol" (a strong spring) from the so called "Old Slavic language". The name Sopol is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Stasanor. This name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "stasan" (ripe). We've said that the suffix "or" can be found in other male names, which means that it is outside of the root "stasan". The names Stasin, Stase and Staso are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Silen(us). Name of a forest demon in Brygian mythology. The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "silen" (that which has spiritual or physical strength). In middle age Macedonia one finds the names: Silan, Silano and Silane.
Stamen(os)38). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "stamen" (reliable, firm). The name Stamen is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Sever(os). The root of this word contains the noun "sever" (north), which exists in in a number of present day "Slavic" languages. The name Sever is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Sipa. In the Macedonian language there exists the noun "sipa" (a type of fish), which lives in Macedonian lake waters. It is a well known practice to derive personal names from the names of animals. The name Sipe is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Sipa(s). This is obviously a Hellenized variant of the previous name.
Scritia39). The adjective "skrita" (secret) is apparent in this name that exists in "Slavic" languages.
Tata, Tato, Tataia. These are obvious variations of a name derived from the noun "tato" i "tata", which means "a father" and can be found in several "Slavic" languages. The name "Tataia" probably is a variant on these two names. In middle age Macedonia one find the names: Tato, Tate, Tatko, Tatka, Tatin.
Temen(os). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "temen" (dark).
Traizina. The root of this word may contain the present day Macedonian adjective "trazena" (expected, sought).
Tip(as). The root of this name contains the noun "tip" (type), which is a word found in several Slavic languages. The names Tipa and Tipe are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Vitel(is). The root of this name contains the noun "vitel", which is found in the present day Macedonian and still means (whirlpool). The name Vitol is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Zaika. This is one of the most interesting ancient Macedonian female names. It may represent a female form of the present day Macedonian "zajak" (rabbit). In any case, there are numerous examples of names taken from names of animals. The names Zaia (Zaja) and Zaiko (Zajko) are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Zaimina. The present day Macedonian language contains the adjective "zemjina" (in dialectal form "zemina") which means "the one who belongs to Earth". There is also the adjective "zimna" (the one who belongs to the winter"). The name Zemko is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
We would also add to this list the name of the well-known Brygian goddess Zemela, who was goddess of the earth. There is an obvious similarity to the Macedonian noun "zemja" (in dialectal form: "zemla"), which is similar in other "Slavic" languages.
We would also mention the name of a Brygian tribe, the "Mushki", who lived in the 9th century before Christ. Their name is identical to the noun "mushki" (men), which exists in other "Slavic" languages. Their king was called Mita a name which remains unchanged in a number of "Slavic" languages.
There are other personal names of ancient Macedonians which in their spoken form have associations with present day Macedonian words, but only some of the more obvious examples have been mentioned.
Regarding the above mentioned names, few things require some explanation. Although it is obvious that in their spoken form they are completely or to a great extent analogous to the Macedonian words that we have cited, as well as those from a number of other "Slavic" languages, the question remains: is this merely chance and is the etymology of these names consistent enough to satisfy logic? For example, is it possible that someone really would name their child "Perustija" (an iron tool for a hearth fire)? In order to answer this question we can say that the criteria which was used in earlier times to create personal names is not quite the same as the present day criteria (at least in regard to the Macedonian onomasticon, and certainly in others as well). Concretely, for names derived from household items we can say that in 19th century Macedonia there is evidence of the female name "Masa" (a table) as well a male name "Lambe" (a lamp). This means that even in the near past there existed personal names connected to items for household use that may justify the claim that the female name "Perustae" was derived from the noun "perustija" (an iron tool for a hearth). Concerning the names that we have dealt with that are derived from verbs, we can say that there also exist today Macedonian names connected to specific activities that are names derived from verbs. Thus, for example, there is the name "Gone" (to hunte, to chase). Regarding the names connected to various items (mantija, plat, mesti and etc.) we can say that in the 19th century there is documentation for the name "Vuna" (dialectal form of the wool), which means that names connected to items existed even in the recent past. There is even evidence in the 19th century of the rare female name "Valkana" (Dirty). Although such a name appears quite strange to present generations, that doesn't deny the fact that our ancestors sometimes created personal names based on different criteria than we use today, and that fact must be taken into account when discussing their etymology.
There is plenty of ancient, middle age and modern age narrative evidence concerning the analogy between the culture of the ancient Macedonians and the culture of the Veneti (ancestors of the "Slavs").
The Latin historian Quintus Curtius Rufus in his biography of Alexander The Great wrote that the Veneti from Asia Minor region of Paphlagonia took part in the army of Alexander The Great. Quintus Curtius Rufus mentioned an interesting piece of information. He wrote that Philotas, a Macedonian who was a naturilised Hellen, teased his fellow Macedonians by calling them "Phrygians or Paphlagians"40). He also wrote that the Macedonians were unhappy about this and complained to Alexander The Great. Two very important points to note here: Philotas equated the terms Phrygians and Paphlagonians. It is well known that the Phrygians (in the Balkans were known as Brygians) became the constitutional ethno-cultural core of the ancient Macedonians, whereas the term Paphlagonians represents a geographic name for Veneti, i.e. for the ancestors of the "Slavs". What this means actually is that Philotas equated the ancient Macedonians and the Veneti, and this happened before IV BC.
Even earlier than this, Herodotus wrote that Phrygians (ancient Macedonians) and Paphlagonians (ancestors of the "Slavs") wore very similar clothes41).
There is narrative evidence regarding the analogy between the "Slav" and ancient Macedonian culture from a later period as well. The Byzantine historian and writer Nichephore Gregoras during his visit to the Macedonian town of Strumica in 1326, recorded that there he heard a large number of Macedonian folk songs. He affirms that, although he did not understand the language of the local population, the folk songs from Strumica definitely resembled - the Phrygian folk songs!42)
Also in the later periods a lot of foreign and Macedonian activists declared that the "Slavs" were the same people as the ancient Macedonians!
Mauro Orbini, in his book "The Kingdom of the Slavs" (1601), wrote about the presence of the "Slavs" during the period of Alexander The Great, even as a part of his army. In this book, Orbini published a document, which represents a Charter, that was sent to the "Slavs" by Alexander The Great as a gesture of gratitude for taking part in Alexander's battles43). It is important to note that Alexander's biographer Quintus Curtius Rufus also wrote that the Veneti were a part of the Macedonian army.
The renowned Croatian historian from XVI century Vinko Pribichevich, in his book "About the Origin and the Adventures of Slavs" (Venice, 1532) asserts that ancient Macedonians are "Slavs". Middle-age Croatian reformists H. Lucich, D. Zatarich, I. Gundulich, J. Palmotich and others, also shared this belief and they all considered Alexander The Great a Slav. Matijan Alberti of Split (1561-1623) also supported this theory.
Ancient Macedonians were considered to be "Slavs" (Veneti) by a number of poets from Dubrovnik, and also a number of Russian historians: Butkov, Saveljev, Rostislavich and Chertkov, as well as archimandrites Leonid and Filrot. Mickevich from the Chair at the French College in Paris, in 1844 declared that the "Slavs are the oldest nation in Europe"44).
The German scholar Kuno, as well as the scholars Lelev and Bjeloski, put forward their assertion that not only the Hellenes but also the "Slavs" always lived on the Balkan peninsula, together with the Hellenes. The same was maintained by the highly distinguished Pavle J. Shafranich (who published a few books on this subject), as well as the Russian consul in Bitola, Hitrov. This theory was represented by some Serbian activists at the time45).
Renown Croatian folklorist from Bosnia Stefan Verkovich during his extended visit to Macedonia in the 19th century recorded a large number of Macedonian folklore deeds and in his letter to the newspaper "Dragoljub" in Zagreb published in 1868 wrote: "The Slavs, and not the Greeks, are the forefathers of the civilisation"46).
In his work "Veda Slovena" (1874) Verkovich wrote:"Our Slavs had a lively tradition even in the times of Alexander The Great".
Bulgarian writer Stefan Zahariev claimed that the "Slavs" are the oldest inhabitants of the Balkans and their literacy dates prior to the brothers St. Cyril and St. Methodius47).
In an Albanian history book from the 19th century has been stated that the Macedonians are the indigenous people of the Balkans and that Alexander The Great was a "famous Macedonian-Slav tzar". These views were shared by renown Macedonian intelectuals from the 19th century: Isaija Mazhovski, Gjorgji Pulevski, Nikola D. Chuparov and others, who believed that the ancient Macedonians and the "Slavs" are in fact the same people48).
Although the official Macedonian historiography (especially during the totalitarian regime in the period after the World War II until its indepence) mainly considered such articulations as national-romanticism, the future research will show whether there is any truth to the above claims.
Notes:
1) Aristotle's mother was born in the Macedonian city of Stagira, however this city at the time was an Athenian colony. This is why it is believed that she was Hellen. However his father, Nicomachus was most probably a Macedonian. He was a personal doctor of the Macedonian tzar Philip II (the father of Alexander The Great). It is known that both Philip and his son Alexander always appointed Macedonians in their immediate vicinity, especially in very sensitive positions such as doctors, trusted generals, bodyguards etc. This fact leads to a conclusion that Aristotle's father was a Macedonian, a view supported by many contemporary historians.
2) There are many historical deeds about the famous Egyptian queen Cleopatra VII describing her pure Macedonian origin. She was a daughter of Ptolemy XII, and a distant granddaughter of Ptolemy I (Ptolemy I was a friend of Alexander The Great since their childhood and a general in the Macedonian army).
3) After the death of Alexander The Great the great Macedonian empire fell apart, but the pieces consequent to the breakdown of the empire were still ruled by Macedonians. Alexander's general Ptolemy set out to rule Egypt, whereas the general Seleucus ruled Siria and southern Asia. These Macedonian dynasties retained a lot of their Macedonian heritage in their tradition. Later on their states were taken over by the Romans. A number of members of these Macedonian dynasties were mentioned in the Bible (especially The Old Testament). For more detail on this subject refer to the book "Jesus Christ and the Macedonians" by A. Donski (Centre for Cultural Initiative, Stip, Macedonia, 2000).
4) For information about the possible Macedonian descent of St. Luke refer to: "The Apostle Paul's Visit to Philippi, History of Philippi", by Dr. Clint Arnold and his class at Talbot Theological Seminary, The Biblelands Project (copyright 1999 by Musterseed Media Inc., website: www.musterseed.net). The likelyhood that St. Luke was from a Macedonian origin is indicated even in the world renown encyclopaedia Microsoft Encarta 98 (Encyclopaedia Deluxe Edition, USA, 1998; "Luke Saint"). More detail on this topic can be found in the book "Jesus Christ and the Macedonians" by A. Donski (Centre for Cultural Initiative, Stip, Macedonia, 2000).
5) Refers to the members of the Macedonian dynasty that ruled Byzantine in the period IX to XI century AD. These tzars exercised a certain number of customs that were practised by the ancient Macedonian tzars, and they even promoted the Phalanx as a distinct component of the Byzantine army. A lot of historians believe these tzars carried the genes of the ancient Macedonians.
6) For extensive detail about the contribution of the ancient Macedonians to the world civilisation refer to "Contribution of the ancient Macedonians to the World Civilisation" by A. Donski, that will become available by December 2001.
7) The fact that the ancient Macedonians were a separate nation has already been widely accepted and indications in this regard can be found in a number of encyclopedias. As an illustration, following infromation has been taken from the encyclopedia Encarta (title: Europe): "Macedonia, to the north of Greece, had not originally been part of the Greek wold". This veracity has been confirmed by a row of international researchers and experts on ancient Macedonia, and the list of names is very long.
8) Arrian: "The Campaigns of Alexander", translated by Aubrey De Selincourt, Penguin Books, USA, 1987, page 119.
9) Homer (VIII BC) identified Veneti as people from Asia Minor, whereas Herodotus (V BC) identified them as Balkan people under the name of Eneti.
10) In support of the fact that Veneti were the same people as the "Slavs" there are number of testimonials. The German historian Jordanes (VI AD) wrote that Veneti and Slavs are the same people. The most convincing arguments regarding the common identity of the Veneti and Slavs were presented in the brilliant book "Veneti - First Builders of the European Community" by Joshko Shavli, Matej Bor and Ivan Tomazich, translation in English by Anton Skrebinc (Editions Veneti; A-1080 Wien, Bennogasse 21, Austria; Co-published by Anton Skrebinc; Boswell, British Columbia, Canada). In this book on over 500 pages are presented indisputable evidences from various fields and it is demonstrated that the Veneti and Slavs had identical cultures, i.e. they were the same people.
11) This is written in chapter 51 in Plutarch's biography of Alexander The Great (Macedonian Translation, Plutarh: "Aleksandar Makedonski", Skopje, 1994, p. 70).
12) Anthony by Plutarch, translated by John Dryden
13) Quintus Curtius Rufus: "Istorija na Aleksandar Makednoski", translation by Dr. Ljubinka Basotova (Skopje, 1998, p. 272)
14) Borza Eugen: "In the Shadow of Olimpus, The Emergence of Macedon" (Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, ISBN 0-691-05549-1, USA, 1990, p. 92)
15) The statement of Demosteness can be found in any publication of his speeches called Philippics.
16) For detailed explanation regarding the meaning of the term "barbarians" in the ancient world refer to Synthia Syndor Slowikowski: "Sport and Culture in the Ancient Macedonian Society" (The Pennsylvania State University, 1998, p. 30)
17) Synthia Syndor Slowikowski: "Sport and Culture in the Ancient Macedonian Society" (The Pennsylvania State University, 1998, p. 30)
18) Thycidides 2,8,1. Isocrates 5.108 and Clement of Alexandria 6.2.17
19) In relation to the presence of borrowed Greek words in the ancient Macedonian language more information can be found in the article "The Ancient Macedonians And Their Language" (Council for Research into South-Eastern Europe of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Skopje, 1993). Also in Eugen Borza: "The Shadow of Olimpus, The Emergence of Macedon" (Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, ISBN 0-691-05549-1, USA, 1990, p. 93)
20) N.G.L Hammond: "The Macedonian State, Origins, Institutions and History" published in the United States by Oxford University Press Inc, New York, 1989, ISBN 0-19-814927-1, p. 6)
21) Makedonia - Sbornik ot dokumenti i materiali (BAN, Sofia, 1978, p. 44)
22) This word is supplied by Dr. Nade Proeva in her book: "Studii za Antickite Makednoci" (Skopje, 1997, p. 58). She asserted that the word "phoinikos" was used for the first time in the period of Alexander The Great.
23) Explanation regarding pronunciation of the letter "v" instead of "f" in the ancient Macedonian and Brygian language is available in the book: "Brigi" by Dr. Eleonora Petrova (Muzej na Makedonija, Skopje, 1996, p. 207)
24) Andonovski Hristo: "Juzna Makedonija od antickite do denesnite Makedonci" (Skopje, 1995)
25) Gjorgji Pop-Atnasov: "Biblijata za Makedonija i Makedoncite" (Menora, Skopje, 1995, p. 57)
26) N.G.L. Hammond: "The Macedonian State, Origins, Institutions and History" published in the United States by Oxford University Press Inc, New York, 1989, ISBN 0-19-814927-1, p. 6)
27) This was the name of the capital of ancient Macedonia
28) and 29) These two ancient Macedonian words were supplied by Dr. Nade in her book: "Studii za Antickite Makednoci" (Skopje, 1997)
30) A number of authors have written about the Brygians as the main ingredient in the ethno-genesis of the ancient Macedonians. Results of the research carried out by some of these authors have been conveyed in the study "Brigi" by Dr. Eleonora Petrova (Muzej na Makedonija, Skopje, 1996, on various occasions throughout the book). Detailed elaboration regarding the domination of the Brygian component in the ancient Macedonians is available in the book "Studii za Antickite Makedonci" by Dr. Nade Proeva (Skopje, 1997)
31) All given names presented herewith have been obtained for use from the above mention books by Dr. Nade Proeva and Dr. Eleonora Petrova, unless specified otherwise. That most of these names are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon see at Dr. Ljubica Stankovska "Rechnik na lichnite iminja na Makedoncite" (Skopje, 1992). In this book more that 30.000 names from Macedonian middle age and modern age onomasticon are presented.
32) The name "Craterus" has been recorded by the ancient biographers of Alexander The Great
33) "Caranus" was the name of a legendary Macedonian sovereign
34) This name has been taken on from the edition "Macedonia acta archeologica", br. 11, 1987-1989 (Skopje, 1990). This was the name of a local Macedonian tribal leader from IV BC.
35) The name "Glaukas" has been recorded by the biographers of Alexander The Great
36) Miladinovci: "Zbornik" (Skopje, 1983, chapter: "Sopstveni narodni iminja", p. 506)
37) The name "Rumi" is taken from Aleksandar Matkovski's "Makednoija vo delata na stranskite patepisci 1778-1826" (Skopje, 1992, p. 54)
38) The name "Stamenos" has been recorded by the biographers of Alexander The Great
39) This name was taken on from the book: "Travels in Northern Greece" by William Martin Leake, London, 1835, vol. III (Nacionalna biblioteka Pariz, signatura J.12345-12348)
40) Quintus Curtius Rufus: "Istorija na Aleksandar Makednoski", translation from Latin in Macedonian by Dr. Ljubinka Basotova (Skopje, 1998, p. 276)
41) The similarity between the apparel of the Phrygians and Paphlagonians was recorded by Herodotus: "The dress of the Phrygians closely resembled the Paphlagonian, only in a very few points differing from it"
42) Nichephore Gregoras: "Corespondance" (Paris, 1927, p. 30)
43) Prof. Angelina Markus; Also "Makedonsko Sonce" (11.07.1997, p.18)
44) For more information refer to: "Veda Slovena" by Gane Todorovski (Makedonska Kniga, Skopje, 1979, p. 17)
45) For more information refer to: "Makedonija i makedonskata nacija" by Dr. Blaze Ristovski (Skopje, 1995, p. 131)
46) For more information refer to: "Zivotni put Stjepana Vjerkovicha (1821-1894)" by Ljubisha Doklestich (Zagreb, 1982, p. 304)
47) For more information refer to: "Zivotni put Stjepana Vjerkovicha (1821-1894)" by Ljubisha Doklestich (Zagreb, 1982, p. 285)
48) For more information in relation to the Albanian history and the work of Mazovski, Pulevski, Chuparov and others refer to: "Makedonija i makedonskata nacija" by Dr. Blaze Ristovski (Skopje, 1995, on various occasions throughout the book)
CITAJ I PLACI CIGAN!!!
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| Magdon |
Aj be grche[^] |
| OooOo |
quote:
Originally posted by msirivia
I am not slavic, therefore I don't understand slavic.
That's too bad and I don't have time to translate [url="http://217.16.69.15/default.asp?pBroj=2608&stID=43493"]this[/url] for you. Big fiasco is coming after you and your country [;)]
Remember: Macedonians are patient. Sooner or later they will get what they want [|)] |
| Pro Patria 2 |
quote:
Originally posted by msirivia
This specific word "patria" happens to come from Greek "patir" which means father. There is a latin word patria but this word is derived from Greek.
as a proof take the origin of patriarch:
"Middle English patriarche, from Old French, from Late Latin patriarcha, from Greek patriarkhs : patri, lineage (from patr, patr-, father. See pter- in Indo-European Roots) + -arkhs, -arch.]
remeber this words,ellhno:DHMOKRATIA THS MAKEDONIA,MAKEDONIA DEN EINAI ELLADA,MAKEDONAS DEN EINAI ELLHNES.
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| Pro Patria 2 |
and since u are so good in history i thinh u know this:u(modern greeks) don't have nothing in common with ancient greeks.U came from northern africa.U have dark skin(take a look in the mirror).
If we have nothing in common with ancient Macedonians,than also u don't have nothing in common with ancient greeks.
geia sas "file" |
| DJ_SHEMA |
Why don't you answer my citings of your favorite writers Eugen Borza?
Why don you think and answer the fact that Whitebaby and I brought up on your all of a sudden realization about MAcedonia after 1991?
Quit pasting articles that swomebody else has wrote and answer some of the issues we have brought up in order to have a normal discussion. Otherwise no need to come here.
quote:
Originally posted by msirivia
This specific word "patria" happens to come from Greek "patir" which means father. There is a latin word patria but this word is derived from Greek.
as a proof take the origin of patriarch:
"Middle English patriarche, from Old French, from Late Latin patriarcha, from Greek patriarkhs : patri, lineage (from patr, patr-, father. See pter- in Indo-European Roots) + -arkhs, -arch.]
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| angomako |
Hello everybody,I still think this was an interesting discusion:)
Recently we get to see more "liberal" greeks that actually have simpaties for us and our future.
I do salute that more liberal aproach,because it still is a change in the right direction.however,I don't think it is a view that most greeks share.Our greek friend that comes here to speak about peace loving nations,etc,should come to Macedonia 10 years ago during the embargo.There was an embargo on medicine,among the other things.
Everything was done to crush this country,and so many greeks have the guts to say that they mean everything best to R Macedonia.
It's like turkish saying to a greek that if one changes the religion,they would help them.And they would.
For us macedonians,the orthodox faith,although being respected,it's not the cornerstone of our nation,like it was with the greeks where it was the most powerful tool for converting the diferent speaking nations into "descendants of the antient greeks",and now that is simply being rationalised big time by the modern greeks.
Macedonians know well how it is to be under turkish yoke,but even that it's not comparable to what hapened AFTER the turkish yoke.The bigest tragedy and attacks of diferent propagandas,all using the church like a tool.
No wonder some of the greatest revolutionaries wanted to keep macedonia remain like a part of the otoman empire,almost forseeing of what will hapen in the close future.
In many instances those propagandas succeded to convert many people that they are greeks,serbians or bulgarians.
Those bulgarians and serbs that our greek friend is refering to,suposedly living in greek macedonia,were all macedonians,speaking the same language we in republic of macedonia do,and many of the were taken as parts of diferent propagandas,some became muslims,some bulgarians,some serbs,but they all remained to feel like macedonians,even in those cases.
Today in bulgaria there are still big groups of people that came after the population exchange,that still openly say that they are macedonians,but ofcourse,with bulgarian national background.The muslim macedonians went to turkey and they feel that they are turks,but they still speak macedonian,and refer to us in macedonian when they see us.But they do feel turks in nationality.
As of serbians,mihalis,you are the first to say that there were serbians in aegean macedonia:)
No thing like that.
One thing that many liberal greeks forget to mention is that the region of aegean macedonia WAS 80% inhabited with Macedonians,or if you want slavonic speaking macedonians.Many of them simply felt like macedonians,but life was hard and people did converted to diferent propagandas,but most of them remained macedonians.
Ask any old,but i mean real old greek natives from aegean macedonia about these people.They are perfectly clear that all those regions were majorities of macedonians,and that they WERE caling them selves only macedonians.
I have heard that the many greeks were refering to them as Slavomakedonas,but the macedonians them selves never had any name like that.
So,this fact is being often ignored.Go mihalis to any part of aegean macedonia,and ask any greeks as to when their gran pa came to macedonia.You can even ask them wether their gren pa spoke any greek.But,their gren pa WAS an orthodox member of the patriarchy that in the times of national revival,told him that he is greek.
It's really that simple...
So,these people came sufering from asia minor,and indicted sufering upon the native macedonian(or if you wish so,the native slavonic macedonian) population when they came.
Michalis,they did to this population great harms,and that population had to defend it self,hence the imro actions.
Willages were literally slautered,altogether,and people were forced to leave.
Literaly during the night.Friends have told me so many hearth breaking stories of what was hapenming in those times.Trucks coming and taking people over night,villages being burnes,it was going on for decades,and it never stops,not even now,since people who feel like macedonians,and wanting to speak macedonian and far from encouradged in greece and bulgaria.And greece should suposedly be a europian democracy.
We macedonians are very peace loving people,and everybody knows that.
even the recent referndum shows that,however sad I am that it failed.
It is the country with bigest minority standards in eurrope,and not only becauyse of the albanians.
It is the only country in europe where there are two gypsi chanels,where there are news in gypsi language,and i heard that one chanel will go satelite these days.
Even if there was no albanian problem,minorioties would still have big rights,unlike in greece,that did everything to sistematicaly erase all the minoroties from it's national map,making them the proud descendants of the antient helenes.Heck,even the real greek gypsies are learning that they are the real descendants of the antient greeks:)
and by the way,I'm proud of our gipsies here in macedonia,they are doing well,and everybody hopes that they are gona do better.
And michalis is saying that bulgaria is peace loving and greece as well!
Ten years ago,the embargo on medicine,and everything,if that wasn't attemt to crush this country,i dunno what was it.It is not macedonians michalis who think that they have exclusive rights to the name macedonia,last time i checked,it was the greeks.
There is no more of an absurd disscusion than this conflict;
one says he is from macedonia,and feels macedonian,and the other one starts braging about things that hapened 2500 years ago pro naci crap.
Who IS the peace loving????
Macedonians braging about the teritory,michalis,is not like they will go tomorrow and steal greek land...aegean macedonia is part of republic of greece,and believe me,no polititians,or people are thinking to much more peace loving then greeks,up to the point that by their tolerance the etnicity map got diferent in the last 20 years.
What about the hundreds of thousands albanians in greece?yes,ther ARE albaninas in greece,both orthodox and muslim,and they speak albaninan.
The orthodox do say that they are greeks.
Us braging about the lost slavonic places in greece that were mostly complitely inhabited by macedonians,before the greeks(or orthodox turks,or whatevere language they spoke and they were),doesn't mean that we are going to take arms and do terorism to greece!!
that's totaly idiotic asumption.it won't hapen.people desire to have good relations to greece,BUT it's little bit like the armenians braging about the genocide,and nostalgicaly talking about ararat.
They know they have no chance against powerful turkey,what's done has been done,but what hurts it the fact that turks are puting that whole propaganda to proove that the genocide never hapened.1500000 people gone "never" hapened.
Well,that's how it is with this problem,i think.Exept the indoctrinated people like you who think no minorities live in greece,the old greeks know very well who was living there before the macedonians got expeled.
There are many people who still live there,as reckognised by helsinki watch who are talking the language we speak here in rm and you can check for their organisation caled vinozito.
There is a need for an etnicum to have the justice sorted out,to have a genocide reckognised out,to get people know that the old churches in macedonia were not inscribed in greek,but in slavonic macedonian language,simply because that is the truth michalis.
i don't say that greece has done something to such magnitude like turks did to armenians,but still....
I don't oppose any greek to call him/her self macedonian,but our slava greething is"may eternal be thy name"-neka ti e vecno ime...
and nobody plans to take solun.
it's not slavic fabricated name,michalis,even serbs,who are friends of greeks during the history,are calling it solun.
all those places had their slavonic names,simply because the were inhabited with slavs(acording to the "oficial history created 120years ago) for more then 1400years.It's probably as much as the ancient macedonians were inhabited(acc to the "off" history)at that region as well,if not even more then the "ancient" macedonians.
and greeks give you shit that you can't call your self macedonian because of something that hapened 2500years ago...that is the naci crap that does not allow the easy solution of this artificial fabricated problem.
My grandfather is 98years old,and he was macedonian before tito too,his father as well,etc...
The propagandas were all there,but iregardles wether people would or not inclided toward any of them(and you have to understand how life was hard in those days,almost scicofrenic presure that lasted for decades),still those people remined macedonians!!
wether macedonian macedonians,probulgarian,proserb,proturkish(!),but still macedonians!
during the ww2,the comunism was easily accepted simply becuase people were fed up from the religious propaganda that made them suffer...they didn't relinquish the respect,but it was too much.
that's one of the reasons why macedonians during the greek civil were fighting on the comunist side.reckognision of their etnicity,and no church propaganda.
And they sufered great deal again,for who knows what time from greeks after the macedonians were not alowed to go back to greece,unlike the greeks.
Do you know these things,michalis?
We see solun and these these places in aegean macedonia like ararat...there was a good movie caled ararat recently,and i could relate to it.
All the good,the truth is out there,and no,we don't plan to take arms for that.
and we will remain macedonians,and we will succeed,despite all our friendly neighbours like greece so concerned about our economy.
Macedonia will become great place for macedonians that is ment to be,and a great place for all the etnicities,just like alexander dreamed to make the world to be.
There you go...with respect,and NO LIES,ma man...
All the best,
ango
|
| angomako |
a mistake in the spelling:
Macedonians braging about the teritory,michalis,is not like they will go tomorrow and steal greek land...aegean macedonia is part of republic of greece,and believe me,no polititians,or people are thinking to much more peace loving then greeks,up to the point that by their tolerance the etnicity map got diferent in the last 20 years.
----------------------------
it should be:
aegean macdonia is a part of greece and no people are thinking to change that.
macedonians are much more peace loving then greeks,up to the point that the etnicity map got different in the last 20years,which caused us further suffering...but they are nevertheless peaceloving. |
| Christian |
IME MAKEDONAS[:)] hehe |
| Great_Macedonian |
To Msirivia (the greek)
I do not have time to read all of the posts on this topic, however i have read some of yours and i think that instead of focusing on history from 2,300 years ago we need to focus more on the current situation.
I will start by saying this: Greeks claim that macedonia and ancient macedonians we greek, thus this gives the greeks the right to claim macedonia and everything associated with macedonia as their own.
Today's Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, claim that the ancient macedonians were not greek and that todays macedonians are the descendents of alexander the great, so greece has no right to steal macedonia's history.
No matter how much we argue, one side will always stick to their arguments, the other side will stick to theirs.
So what i think is more important, is to discuss how we can solve the 'macedonian question'.
First of all, i would like to point out that most of your arguments are based on language. The fact that todays macedonian language is not the same as the ancient macedonian language is a big minus for the macedonians because people seem to think that a language determines identity.
This is what i have to say about this. We, macedonians consider ourselves the descendants of the ancient macedonians, however we do not deny that throughout history, other tribes such as the slavs for instance, have mixed into the general macedonian population. So, while modern historians claim that todays 'macedonian language' is a slavic language, the exact truth is a bit different. So maybe ancient macedonian was simmilar to ancient greek, however though, very little proof of the ancient macedonian language is today available to us. However though, many ancient macedonian words have close resemblance to some of todays macedonian words. So even though today's macedonian language is not the same as the ancient macedonian language, it has some simmilarities, and the language throughout history gradually changed with modifications here and there, from which the result is a modified (new) macedonian language, derived from ancient macedonian.
Take the Bulgarians as an example. They speak a slavic language, but the majority of them have asiatic-mongolian tatar origins. The language you speak does not assert your nationality. Take Ireland as an example, They speak english these days, gailic is dying out, but does this mean that 1000years down the track they should be called English, because they know nothing about the gailic language? i dont think so.
I have been told that topday's greek language is not the same as ancient greek, i could be wrong though. On the other hand i have heard that when greece became independant in 1829(?) the greek populations new very little ancient greek and the language had to be "re-born", "re-written" in order to give the people of greece a "sense of belonging to an ancient race".
I agree with you that Republic of Macedonia should be called Northern Macedonia. I have often stated this to many macedonians. There is North Korea and South Korea, Northern Ireland etc. Macedonia is also devided so there should be Northern Macedonia BUT ALSO Southern Macedonia, because thats the reality. This can be a good solution to the name dispute, however though, nobody can ever force us macedonians to change our macedonian identity. |
| angomako |
At least I can go to my gay greek forums and have a nice friendly chat!!! You see, gay comes from greek too. Gaysimos which means the one who receives, the receiver.
-------------------------------------
and i thought that the word "gay" comes from the english "gay"---merry,or happy lad...
but that english wor might have a greek origin as well:)
ang |
| Great_Macedonian |
samo Ljupco-Trepet e spas za makedonija!!! |
| Great_Macedonian |
Listen here my "greek friend"... eather Greece and every other anti-macedonian will recognize macedonia and the macedonian people or we will fight for our recognition. Greece will pay for its crimes on humanity and its stinky human rights record.
A country such as 'greece', with more than 2million Vlahs-aromanians, 3million asiatic orthodox people who are not greek by origin, hundereds of thousands of turks and slavs... a country like that cannot go on forever claiming to be the rightfull owner of ancient 'hellenistic' history and everything on the balkans from athens to dardania. You cannot be the true desendents of the ancient greeks let alone ancient macedonians, so give up and recognize the macedonians and the Republic of Macedonia before the truth starts coming out about the origins of todays 'greeks', then you will see what it feels like to be a 'forbbiden identity'. |
| noname |
quote:
Originally posted by Great_Macedonian
To Msirivia (the greek)
I do not have time to read all of the posts on this topic, however i have read some of yours and i think that instead of focusing on history from 2,300 years ago we need to focus more on the current situation.
I will start by saying this: Greeks claim that macedonia and ancient macedonians we greek, thus this gives the greeks the right to claim macedonia and everything associated with macedonia as their own.
Today's Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, claim that the ancient macedonians were not greek and that todays macedonians are the descendents of alexander the great, so greece has no right to steal macedonia's history.
No matter how much we argue, one side will always stick to their arguments, the other side will stick to theirs.
So what i think is more important, is to discuss how we can solve the 'macedonian question'.
First of all, i would like to point out that most of your arguments are based on language. The fact that todays macedonian language is not the same as the ancient macedonian language is a big minus for the macedonians because people seem to think that a language determines identity.
This is what i have to say about this. We, macedonians consider ourselves the descendants of the ancient macedonians, however we do not deny that throughout history, other tribes such as the slavs for instance, have mixed into the general macedonian population. So, while modern historians claim that todays 'macedonian language' is a slavic language, the exact truth is a bit different. So maybe ancient macedonian was simmilar to ancient greek, however though, very little proof of the ancient macedonian language is today available to us. However though, many ancient macedonian words have close resemblance to some of todays macedonian words. So even though today's macedonian language is not the same as the ancient macedonian language, it has some simmilarities, and the language throughout history gradually changed with modifications here and there, from which the result is a modified (new) macedonian language, derived from ancient macedonian.
Take the Bulgarians as an example. They speak a slavic language, but the majority of them have asiatic-mongolian tatar origins. The language you speak does not assert your nationality. Take Ireland as an example, They speak english these days, gailic is dying out, but does this mean that 1000years down the track they should be called English, because they know nothing about the gailic language? i dont think so.
I have been told that topday's greek language is not the same as ancient greek, i could be wrong though. On the other hand i have heard that when greece became independant in 1829(?) the greek populations new very little ancient greek and the language had to be "re-born", "re-written" in order to give the people of greece a "sense of belonging to an ancient race".
I agree with you that Republic of Macedonia should be called Northern Macedonia. I have often stated this to many macedonians. There is North Korea and South Korea, Northern Ireland etc. Macedonia is also devided so there should be Northern Macedonia BUT ALSO Southern Macedonia, because thats the reality. This can be a good solution to the name dispute, however though, nobody can ever force us macedonians to change our macedonian identity.
You're wrong about the Bulgarians! They are not asian-mongol-tartars!
They are simply tadjik-kazah-kirgiz-azerbajdzans!
Period!
NEVER, JUST NEVER did numerous slavic tribes settle down in the lower Danube plain, Moesia, Thrace or Macedonia! Never! And even if they did ....(khm... somehow) lived, possibly, near the Danubian plain, they just disappeared from everywhere except from ....Macedonia (of course). Slavs around in Thrace or Moesia - forget it! |
| msiriv |
"Dud(es). The noun "dud" (a type of wood) exists in several "Slavic" languages. The names Dude and Duda are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
Glaukia(s)35). Could this name be derived from the noun "glava" (a head)? In 19th century Macedonia one finds the male name Glavko.36) "
I don't have time to deal with all the nonsense that you listed.
Most of it is based on work by people of slavic origin, such as your favorite scholar Eugene Borza.
My general observation is that some of these names are indeed names of Slavemacedonians but were not used 2000 years ago. The rest of the names are clearly Greek. I've chosen one of the most obvious one to proove that you have based your history on falsified evidences.
Glaukos is an ancient Greek name, of which one can find references in Homer's Iliad. A simple google search will convince you.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/glaucus3.html
http://www.underthesun.cc/Classics/Homer/illiad/illiad6.html
Obviously, it is not derived from the bulgarian "glava" or russian "golova" but from the word ancient greek word that has also survived in modern greek "glaukos" which means shiny, bright and bluish-green.
Americans have a great respect for "Macedonians", that's why they've "stolen" the "ancient" word "Dude" and now call each other as such very often.
Btw, is this how you ppl argue in forums, by banning the only supporter of the opposite position?
At least I can go to my gay greek forums and have a nice friendly chat!!! You see, gay comes from greek too. Gaysimos which means the one who receives, the receiver. |
| DJ_SHEMA |
Don't cry for me argentina.
You start a conversation, yet you don;t bring anything constructive to it. Some pasted texts that somebody else wrote. Then when you are confronted with facts that have blown up in your face, you chicken out and threaten to leave (like we care), and the you start offending us. Remember the first post I posted on this topic?
So, either discuss the issues at hand, or leave. Plain and simple, much like your dark tan. |
| Thunder from down under |
greeks are showing how desperate they are getting, i dont know why, but the time is running out for them and they feel it and know it,
stop lying to the world and stop wasting your money on propaganda againg the mighty Macedonia
its time the world finds out how dirty you people are
and stop stealing land from us and from turks
amerikans are sucking our asses now, so will the rest of the world will very soon, so the sooner the greeks start sucking our asses the better for them,
or else the Nuclear Power Plants in Kurajca is producing nuclear bombs like a sausages by the thousands per day,
that might be the reason that amerikan are sucking our asses |
| msiriv |
"At least I can go to my gay greek forums and have a nice friendly chat!!! You see, gay comes from greek too. Gaysimos which means the one who receives, the receiver."
Hehe, good one admins... |
| jamajka |
What is meaning of the word greek, greece ?
Or helen, maybe its epical naming by Helena from Iliada. |
| msiriv |
I'd like to copy and paste the following old FAQ list that answers to most of your questions.
[ Usenet FAQs | Search | Web FAQs | Documents | RFC Index ]
[soc.culture.greek] Macedonia FAQ
There are reader questions on this topic!
Help others by sharing your knowledge
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Angelos Karageorgiou <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek, soc.culture.europe, alt.news.macedonia,
alt.news.answers, news.answers
Subject: [soc.culture.greek] Macedonia FAQ
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 12:30:21 +0000 (UTC)
Sender: Angelos Karageorgiou <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Summary: The truth about Macedonia the region of Greece which is hotly contested by FYROM based on historic falsifications.This here FAQ clarifies the basic Greek positions and tries to show some of the FYROMian falasies.
Keywords: Macedonia,Greece,Makedonia
User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (i686))
Archive-name: cultures/macedonia/faq
Posting-Frequency: biweekly
Last-modified: 1997/02/01
Version: 1.4
URL: http://www.abest.com/~angelos/macfaq.html
Copyright: (c) 1995-1997 Angelos Karageorgiou
Maintainer: Angelos Karageorgiou <[email protected]>
For the web addicted you can view this FAQ together with more
pertinent information at http://www.abest.com/~angelos/macfaq.html
There you will see some very interesting things!
Or you can search for the word Macedonia in Yahoo !!!!
******************** Macedonian FAQ (Hellenic) *************************
This is a FAQ about the Greek main positions, but also covers issues
that have arisen during our discussion in the group, so that visitors
and newcomers to the group can follow the discussions easier. I hope it
will be a useful primer.
In 1994, Greece imposed an embargo on products from FYROM (except for
food, medicine and humanitarian assistance), on claims that the adoption
of a Greek name ("Macedonia") for the country, a Greek symbol (the
Vergina Sun/Star) for its flag and certain articles in its constitution,
hide irredentist designs against Greece. For the embargo to end, the
flag, certain articles in its constitution, and the hostile propaganda
have to be changed ("small package"), while the name can be decided in
later negotiations.
The Embargo has recently been lifted but the reasoning behind it is
still relevant, and even more pressing since the assasination attempt
against FYROM's president.
But the foremost reason for this FAQ's existences is to reply to
irredentist aspirations, against Greece and its people, like the
following:
"Actually, WE FORESEE a unification of all the parts of
Macedonia the Pirin, the Aegean, the Vardar (presently the
INDEPENDENT Republic), and Mala Prespa/Golo Brdo. That will be
achieved in a peaceful manner, for NOONE CAN DENY THE RESOLVE
OF THE MACEDONIANS TO LIVE IN A MACEDONIAN STATE FREE OF
FOREIGN RULE. Macedonia was divided among its neighbors in
1913; it's time it got reunified."
(Boris Docevski, Brainwashed Internet Propagandist,
posted in soc.culture.greek on April 21, 1995)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONTENTS
1) Why does Greece dictate to FYROM its name, symbols and constitution?
2) Why does Greece object to the use of the `Vergina Sun' on the FYROM flag?
3) Why did Greece impose the embargo?
4) Why do you claim exclusive rights to the symbols of the ancient Macedons?
5) What proof do you have that the ancient Macedonians were Greek?
6) How can appropriating Greece's history, be irredentist?
7) Who populated the lands of modern FYROM in the past?
8) What about their claim of a large minority in Greece?
9) Why doesn't the Greek government recognize the "Macedonian" minority?
10) What are Greece's objections with FYROM's constitution?
11) Does Greece have any territorial or other claims on FYROM?
12) Is Greece really afraid of FYROM?
13) Appendix of FYROMian intransingence
1) Why does Greece dictate to FYROM its name, symbols and constitution?
Greece does not dictate to FYROM what name or flag to adopt, just
to choose any of the million possibilities that are not Greek or
offensive to Greeks. Countries have to choose their national symbols
based on International norms. (i.e. Can Syria employ the Nazi cross
as their flag, if they choose so? Can Cuba change its name to
Florida, employ the statue of Liberty as its flag and start
propaganda that the Maine state in the USA belongs to Cuba, by
virtue of so many Cubans living there?)
Naming a country after a neighboring region is a de facto
irredentist strategy aimed at destabilizing the region, and hoping
that the country, will absorb the neighboring region.
2) Why does Greece object to the use of the `Vergina Sun' on the FYROM
flag?
The Vergina Sun, the emblem of Philip's dynasty, symbolizes the
birth of our nation. It was the first time (4th century BCE) that
the Greek mainland (city-states and kingdoms) with the same language,
culture, and religion were united against the enemies of Asia in one
league. At the same time the fractured Greek world grew conscious of
its unity. And, in this sense, we have never been apart since then.
The `Sun' was excavated in Greece in 1978, prior to that date this
symbol never appeared in any slavic motif anywhere on the planet,
much less in any motif inside FYROM even prior to its adoption by
the current regime. This motif does appear in many Greek buildings
and paintings throughout the ages.
3) Why did Greece impose the embargo?
After talking with the FYROMian Government fruitlessly for 2 years
and going nowhere, then and only then did the Greek state implement
the partial embargo as last resort to advance the issue.
4) Why do you claim exclusive rights to the symbols of the ancient
Macedonians?
We have linguistic, cultural, genealogical, and geographic ties to
the ancient Greeks and Macedons. They (FYROM) are mostly Slavs who
descended after 600 CE in the region, and have no ties whatsoever
(ancient Makedonia was within modern Greece since its inception).
Even after the great expansion by Philip the II and Alexander the
Great in the 400s BCE, perhaps even less than 10% of the FYROMian
land was part of the `enlarged kingdom'. The reader should realize
that the punitive expeditions of the Macedonians in the north, as
well as their imperial acquisitions in the Balkans and Asia did not
necessarily produce a `wider concept of Macedonia' - a country with
boarders extending to India. That would be most simplistic!
Pella, the capital of the ancient Makedones, is well within modern
Greek borders.
5) What proof do you have that the ancient Macedonians were Greek?
The vast majority of major historians believe that the ancient
Macedonians were Greek. Those who still remain skeptical, say that
they need more evidence before proclaiming the ancient Macedonians
as Greek. But no one says that ancient Macedonians were not Greek.
Recent excavations close to their ancient capital, Aigai, including
the discovery of the `tomb of Philip the II', reinforce the Greek
identity of the ancient Macedonians categorically.
Thousands of items , including columns, inscriptions,pottery, paint-
ings, etc. can be found throughout the museums of Macedonia. All
without exception are of the Greek culture beyond any doubt.
In any case, all historians admit that by Roman times the ancient
Macedonians were fully homogenized with the rest of Greeks, and that
Macedonia stopped existing as a separate socio-cultural entity some
600 years before any contact with the first Slavs in the Balkans.
6) How can appropriating Greece's history, be irredentist?
History is the means for laying claims on foreign lands. The
Macedonian argument was promoted by the 3rd Commintern (USSR) and
their allies in the region just prior to WWII, to create an
independent greater Macedonia for social experimentation. Bulgarians
have said that Alexander the Great was a Bulgarian while occupying
Macedonia (Greek) on behalf of the Germans in WWII.
Tito sent 5,000 Yugoslavs and "Slav-Macedonians" to Greece after
WWII to work with their allies in the region to annex Makedonia
(Greek) while we were too busy fighting a civil war. These were the
same people that now live in FYROM. 3 times in the recent past the
same propaganda has been used as justification by different
interests (Commintern, Bulgaria, (S)NOF-Yugoslavia) to invade (or
try to) Greece. Even today, just when the name and flag were been
adopted in independent FYROM, VMRO and Gligorof were talking about
reclaiming "their" lands in Greece and Bulgaria.
7) Who populated the lands of modern FYROM in the past?
The ancient people inhabiting the area around Skopje, at the time of
the ancient Macedonians, were the Dardanians, and their land was
called Dardania. Throughout their modern history, the region now
occupied by FYROM was populated mostly by Bulgarians.
The creation of "Macedonia" (FYROM, SROM) was artificial.
Ex-Yugoslavs will attest to that. FYROM is comprised of Albanians,
Serbs, and Bulgarians and their language is a Bulgarian dialect with
a few Serbo-croatian words. Bulgarians will attest to that and
understand/speak "Macedonian".
In any case FYROM's president admitted publicly that the current
inhabitants of FYROM are slavs.
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century . . .
we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
( President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov,
from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report,
Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35.)
8) What about their claim of a large minority in Greece?
After usurping the name and the flag, surprise! They start claiming
that Greeks in Macedonia (Greek) are a FYROM minority. After all we
all identify as Macedonians. Thus, we must be the same...
Some people in the Net claim 1 mill minority in Macedonia (Greek).
The population of Macedonia (Greek) is 2 mill. I am a Macedonian
(Greek) same with other Greeks on this group. We don't have anything
in common with FYROM. We are Greek.Finally the recent Euro-Elections
revealed only with their cause (therefore propably a FYROM
minority) 10,000! Not fantasies of 1 million!
The latter can be found in the latest State Department report about
the Slavic minority of Greece.
9) Why doesn't the Greek government recognize the "Macedonian"
minority?
Greek parents have been sending their children to Macedonian schools
for years, expecting them to learn Greek, not Bulgarian. Macedonian
people (Greeks) are already a majority in Greece, with Macedonian
churches, schools and cultural centers teaching Greek and regional
dances and songs.
The Greek government can neither recognize a minority with the same
name, as the majority, nor build non-Greek schools and churches
with the same name. Greek courts have offered to open cultural
centers for their minority, under a different name (than
Macedonian). They have refused.
As long as they use the term "Macedonian" to describe their
nationality, their minority in Greece cannot be recognized
since the same name is used by the Greeks of Macedonia to describe
themsleves for much longer that the written history of any slavic
tribe.
10) What are Greece's objections with FYROM's constitution?
There are two points of concern
In their preamble, they define their FYROM state as a departure
from the " ...historic decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of
the People's Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM)... ". The problem is
that ASNOM had called for the "Macedonians" in Bulgaria and other
countries to unite under Tito's rule.
Their language in article 49 is also problematic (too extensive to
go into here).
At Greece's request they have added 2 amendements stating that they
have no claims on neighbouring countries. Still, that is in
contradiction with their preample, and it is to their benefit
to rewrite those articles to avoid contradictions and vagueries in
their Constitution.
11) Does Greece have any territorial or other claims on FYROM?
In 1993, Serbia's President Milocevic, invited Greece to invade
FYROM. Greece declined it.
FYROM is surrounded by claims of Greater Albania, Greater Bulgaria
and Greater Serbia. Greece is the only one not interested in FYROM.
It is a poor, barren place with no Hellenic ties or history. Greece
has the beach-front property (Aegean), and the economy differential
between the two countries would only create problems for the
richer one (Greece).
12) Is Greece really afraid of FYROM?
Presently FYROM is too weak to threaten Greece militarily or
otherwise. However, considering that
a) A general draft can raise an army of 700,000 in FYROM;
b) Greece has had to fight several times against similar claims in
this century to secure and defend its northern region
(Macedonia);
c) the Balkans are currently in a map-changing mode;
d) shifting alliances may change the balance of power in the near
future;
The Greek state feels that the "inexplicable" adoption of an
Irredentist name and flag by FYROM are hostile and provocative
acts designed to establish future claims on Greek Macedonia.
Especially since the lifting of the embargo, the designations in the
FYROMIAN passports appear without the Greek cities marked as such,as
if these cities were part of FYROM. To add insult to injury the
cities are printed with the slavicized version of their name , i.e.
Solun instead of Thessaloniki, Ler instead of Florina etc.
The recent assasination attempt against the president of FYROM by
ultranationalists, on the wake of the signing of an agreement with
Greece, only enforces the belief that this newborn state is a cradle
of violence and instability.
It is very interesting to note that official FYROM circles have
blamed Bulgaria in this attempt ! It seems that this little country
is surrounded by enemies !
13) Appendix:
All the above points are easily supported by availlable evidence, a
thimblefull of which appears below. The extent of propaganda unleashed
against Greece on this issue is simply staggering. FYROM is believed to
use the Soros development funds on an international smear campaign.
Collection of various FYROMian propaganda items.
Quotes:
"A major campaign will soon be underway to inform the rest of the
Balkans about the truth concerning the sections of the Macedonian
people in Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria who were divided and ENSLAVED
after the Balkan Wars. The leading Macedonian nationalist parties,
in their desire to see a larger Macedonia, made no secret of their
intention to bring these territories back within the sovereign state,
and do not hide their determination that it is only a matter of days
before the power of Macedonia redraws the borders of Bulgaria, Greece
and Serbia."
(Kiro Gligorov, interview in the
periodical Nin, Feb. 1, 1991)
"Actually, WE FORESEE a unification of all the parts of Macedonia
the Pirin, the Aegean, the Vardar (presently the INDEPENDENT
Republic), and Mala Prespa/Golo Brdo. That will be achieved in a
peaceful manner, for NOONE CAN DENY THE RESOLVE OF THE MACEDONIANS
TO LIVE IN A MACEDONIAN STATE **FREE OF FOREIGN RULE**. Macedonia
was divided among its neighbors in 1913; it's time it got reunified."
(Boris Docevski, Brainwashed Internet Propagandist,
posted in soc.culture.greek on April 21, 1995)
Instances of the FYROMian misinformation campaign:
On 17 June 1990, the founding conference of VMRO-DPMNE
(the 'Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation'),
the extreme nationalist party within the 'Socialist
Republic of Macedonia (SRM), adopted a proclamation stating,
inter alia, that it would "fight for a free, autonomous and
united Macedonia" within the framework of a prospective "European
federation " on the basis of "the Ilinden ideals". VMRO won more
seats than any other party at the elections in the SRM, with 37
out of a total of 120.
Ljupce Georgievski, President of VMRO, has stated that he
is "in favour of the spiritual, intellectual and territorial
unification of Macedonia" (Borba, 31.12.90). On 7 November
1990 he had this to say: "The Macedonia of Pirin, the Aegean
and the Vardar is not Greater Macedonia: it is simply Macedonia.
We shall be talking of Greater Macedonia when we claim Belgrade, Sofa,
Thessaly, Valona and elsewhere".
During a tour of Canada, Vasil Tupurkovski-who represented Skopje in
the former collective Presidency of Yugoslavia-made the following
statement on television: "Europe has already proved that it can
resolve the question of unification among peoples, as happened in the
case of Germany. And if that can be done once in Europe, there is no
reason why Europe should hold itself aloof from the national ideals of
a people such as the Macedonian people ".
Asked by a journalist whether the Macedonians ought to struggle harder
for cultural and spiritual unification rather than territorial unity,
he replied: "I believe that the national ideal cannot be subjected to
constraints, and that it includes territorial unification ".
SRM deputy K. Petrov submitted a VMRO-supported proposal to the
Parliament of Skopje early in January 1991 calling for the adoption of
a declaration concerning the independence and sovereignty of the SRM
and for it to submit to the international organisations claims "for the
return of territories held by Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Albania,
which belong to the SRM by virtue of the fact that Macedonians live
there".
An extract from an article in the periodical Nin (1 February 1991):
"The new President of Macedonia, Kiro Gligorov, has stated that a
major campaign will soon be under way to inform the rest of the Balkans
about the truth concerning the sections of the Macedonian people
in Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria who were divided and enslaved after
the Balkan Wars. The leading Macedonian nationalist parties, in their
desire to see a larger Macedonia, make no secret of their intention
to bring these territories back within the sovereign state, and
do not hide their determination that it is only a matter of days
before the power of Macedonia redraws the borders of Bulgaria,
Greece and Serbia ".
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|
| jamajka |
And why bulgarian instead of Vulgarian ?
or Bizant instead of Vizant?
or Basil instead of Vasil ?
Did someone on the west read "vita" as "beta".
What is sereb ?
or maybe serev ?
and then serv ?
Vulgars, serbs, greeks, thoose words are just an atributs. Macedoninan is word for the nation.
Macedonians are not slavs, servian, helens or vulgars. Those are not nations. |
| msiriv |
You should cut down on pot Jamaica... |
| mafisKumA |
msirivia and your point is [?]
|
| msiriv |
Mafis, perhaps you could do me a favor and be the first one in this forum that actually reads my postings without misrepresenting them. If you did that then you would be able to extract all the points I am trying to communicate.
We are not high school kids and we do not need simplified summaries to understand, so please just pay a little more attention if you are really interested. If you are not interested, at least demonstrate some basic respect for the "blog opponent's" position and do not try to discredit them with idiotic remarks such as "what's your point?".
If you disagree, then I urge you to argue with convincing and substantiated cases and references. The "smart ass" reasoning does not meet the standards of this subject. |
| DJ_SHEMA |
And your previus post in regards to jamaica was highly intelectual, right?
If you are stupid enough, I suggest you quit practicing it on a daily basis. With the above post you pretty much ruined any credibility you had. Prepare yourself for abuse, and then a ban, fucking gypsy. |
| mafisKumA |
quote:
Originally posted by msiriv
Mafis, perhaps you could do me a favor and be the first one in this forum that actually reads my postings without misrepresenting them. If you did that then you would be able to extract all the points I am trying to communicate.
We are not high school kids and we do not need simplified summaries to understand, so please just pay a little more attention if you are really interested. If you are not interested, at least demonstrate some basic respect for the "blog opponent's" position and do not try to discredit them with idiotic remarks such as "what's your point?".
If you disagree, then I urge you to argue with convincing and substantiated cases and references. The "smart ass" reasoning does not meet the standards of this subject.
Your plagiarised posts warrant no acknowledgement.
I don't have the want nor need to read any further posts from you. You lost any credibility when you took the liberty of renaming my birthplace as "Republic of Northern Macedonia" and then had the audacity to demand that we compromise.
Perpetually yours [:X]
mafisKumA
|
| msiriv |
Jamaica's post was a funny post and so was my reply. It wasn't insulting it was just a joke. Jamaica-pot, do any of you guys get the the funny element?
On the other hand, since my postings are substantiated, reasonable and well-stated, they deserve an equally well-stated response. Discreditng them in such a silly way is not appropriate.
Even very serious ppl are allowed to have fun from time to time. I didn;t comment for example on the "gay" joke you pulled on me. It was funny, but somebody pretending that does not understand what i clearly state is simply "bad manners".
About the plagiarism thing. You do not expect anyone to re-invent all the arguments on the whole Macedonian issue, don't you?. My first postings were entirely mine, but when I realized that you lack essential information I had to refer to other people's work. That is a practice that all of you have followed in this discussion, isn't it? I consider this characterization very unfair and I hope you realize it, admit it and take it back.
Let each person in this forum judge my credibility by its own.
Personally I am just glad, that I introduced you to a totally different set of ideas, and I believe I;ve done it in a very constructive and representative way, even though i am completely alone in this forum.
Thanks for the hospitality btw. I appreciate the fact that I can still post and exchange ideas on this issue. |
| angomako |
michalis,
i have never heard of the quotes that you have put in the newspapers,and i was 11years old when the whole independence thing started and when yugoslavia started to fall appart.it lasted several years and i remember pretty good everything and i believe i can give a good retrospection on that period.
first of all,the president kiro gligorov was the major sheep that always went toward any posible peaceful solutions,that in retrospective,have and will have bad concequences for generations of macedonians to come.
first of all,the nationalism surged in all the parts of yugoslavia,and macedonian was the least dangerous of all,i believe.
in all sincerity,on the first elections the bigest nationalist party had put maps of whole of macedonia,but continualy simbolising and reminding that it only means spiritual reunion with the lost brethren in the other parts of macedonia,and helping them to gain their unexistant rights.after all,greeks expeled thousands of macedonians,and yes,thousands are still living there and yes,they are greeks allready,because they are afraid to say what they are.they will lose their jobs,and can have all kinds of bad concequences for who knows what time.for them,that fight is over,and they are "greeks" now.BUT,if they had the right to say who and what they are without any represions,then they probably would do that.
michalis,you keep giving articles on the organised propaganda that comes from fyrom,but there is really probably close to nothing organised in this country,and especially the foreign policy and the defending of the human rights in our neighbouring countires.
those people you mentioned,that are the greek macedonians,claiming only 10000 slavonic speaking macedonians in greece are mentioning this fact because people are afraid to say who they are.
you should ask that guy who wrote the text who he is,and where did his gran pa came from.
i can't do that,because i don't have time.
if he says he is "old" macedonian,and there were some greeks there,maybe like 10%,or something,ask him about the slavomakedonas,if he don't know,his gren pa does for sure,and he will tell you that they were everywhere,from kastoria(kostur) to the east of macedonia.
maybe he will lie,because it is his duty to make you think in certain way.
if he is the newcomer,he will probably lie,cause they,"the autenthic greek macedonians",that didn't ever have any contact with macedonia prior to 1920-30,are now the loudest in the whole naci macedonian thing.what is more natural for people living in the region for 1400years to call them selves after the name of the region?
greeks were by far by far a minority there,man(1920)...go,go trough the villages and towns on aegean macedonia and ask the people,where did they came from during the exchanged populations...you are greek,they might not lie to you.i am yet to see a greek with a power of critical thinking,as for this whole macedonian issue as well.
imro,the nationalistic party that had the maps of the whole macedonia during the first elections in 1991,was the same party that signed many many major business contracts with greece 8years after,and as time has passed,they did mellow in their atitudes great deal.
however,there was never any attempt to attack greece!nor inclination,nor anything similar!
greece was amember of nato,and macedonia didn't have one tenk in that time(and neither does now,as a matter of a fact)...so,why was the greece reaction so strong,and the fear so great?
for us michalis,it is very clear how much greece is afraid of having one part of it's population become nationly conscuous in a diferent manner then it has beed indoctrinated during years of represion,and breinwashing of the greek governments.
imagine the albanian speaking greek populations in the west,and the slavic speaking populations in the east.
they way greece reacted was quite smart,keeping the internal cohesia and playing again on the abstract history card.and who was the main organiser of the nationalistic protests in greece in tesalonika?
who could it be?????
well,ofcourse,the main brainwashing instrument and ideolog of the great antient big greek propaganda,the greek orthodox church.(not to say that the other orthodox churches are and haven't been nationalistic,they all are)...
so,instead of hearing the turkofonik testimonials of how macedonian are they(and nobody here in macedonia denies them that,by the way!),go to the aegean macedonia,and ask among the people,ask 100people for example...there,go to kilkis(kukus),the birth place of our great revolutionary for independent macedonia,gotse delcev...that place was totaly slavonic macedonian...go there and ask the inhabitant,the big and proud ancestors of alex the great,that have the unique and exclusive right on that history,when did they came to macedonia...or you can go anuwhere else...i don't know about the greek colective memory,but you should probably get some good estimation...even bulgarians don't oppose the fact that the place was inhbited with slavonic macedonian population,they know very very well the facts,and in fact i have seen great maps coming from the bulgarian macedonian institute from sofia.yes,there is such one made to propagate the bulgarian version of the story.
maps containing all the vilages from aegean macedonia and ofcourse all in slavonic names(cause they were the only names 100 years ago,hello!!)
the macedonians living there have very very often indentified with alex the great,and all those stories,but during the hardships,what could they do?they would look for help..bulgaria was ofering education in a language most similar,pouring a lot of money and weapons,and so many people,besides feeling macedonian,have felt bulgarian as well.
the interesting thing is that the people from the towns were tending to be much more prone to the propagandas from everywhere,then the village people,simply because they were more educated,and were more prone to the propagandas.most of the vilage people called them selves uniquely macedonians most of the time,everywhere in macedonia,from north to south.i think it was them that kept this spirit going,until the second world war,when we got it for the first time.
by the way,in formal yugoslavia everything was done to keep the macedonian nationalism under control,and repress it,especialy by the serbians(!)and one of the bigest mistake we did was not leting the armies during the secong world war to go the the aegean macedonia and just proclame it for a free country,because most of the north population(80%) was fully macedonian.
guess which places were comunist during the greek civil war?
the north.and why?because of the slavonic macedonian population,who was fighting on the macedonian side.
but it was too late,back then,the greek civil war.
during the ww2,there was insurgence in the macedonian lines because they didn't wanted to go to fight on north,on the srem front...the result was that the macedoniand loyal to tito and belgrade,killed 800partizans and took the rest to go north.
after that,during the civil war tito did probably help the greek comunist,and the macedonians have fighted for them because they promised them national rights!
that's right,michalis,the greek comunist promised the macedonians rights,and they fighted for them.
it was too late though,because the others had the brits fighting for them,and villages were slaugtered big time.
so many left,and only the greeks were allowed to return.
even now,these macedonians are not allowed to go back to greece,because when the greek customs see where are you born,they flatly don't let you in.just like that.for decades people couldn't go and see their places,now inhabited with the "real macedonians",who came from turkey 60-70 years ago,and probably didn't speak greek,but they were members of the greek orthodox church and taken by the goverment for the purpose of changing the ethnic picture of aegean macedonia.
...and the north was not dardania,it was paeonia,and we claim that they were mako tribes as well.in any waym the north was part of the macedonia since the days of philip,so it is macedonia now as well.
as for the nationalist,i bet that until pretty recently there were greeks that dreamed about taking back the konstantinopolis,yeah?
isn't that your "ararat"?don't the greeks see it with nostalgia,etc...?
well,there you go,that's the big story,and the truth,imho,between macedonia and greece.
a greek with a ability for self critical thinking....hmmmm,i did met some,though...ver few:)
all the best,
ango
|
| f9 |
MACEDONIA->MACEDONIANS
GREECE->GREEKS
I CAN SEE ANY PROBLEM,EXEPT BORDERLINE!SHOULD BE LITTLE BIT MORE TO SOUTH.
And if you think to open with me conversation ,first take your shoes because you are on the land of real Macedonian forum where you will need more than copy - paste.
For beginning one simple info for yours ears.
Patriarch Nicephoras (806-815)- section34 of his Chronologhical notes:
"Justinian II attacked the Sclauinians.He reached the city of Thessalonica and drew out many of the Sclauinian tribesman there,some with force,some with appeal,and recolated them to the land called Opsicius(Bisantine theme in Asia minor)
Theophanos chronicles for Arab-Bisantine war of 662:
"In that year,Justinian II chose 30,000 recruits from Sclauinians that he had relocated,and by arming them he made them a substantial army"
Because most of your "Greco-turco Macedonians from today greek province of Macedonia have been settled in last century from asia minor it is
my rightfull conclusion that you are at least the descendant of these
slavs.So please change your name in Greecoslavia. |
| Great_Macedonian |
msiriv...
you say that greece does not dictate on republic of macedonia.. they say that republic of macedonia should use other "none-greek" names... well bottom line is this... you cant choose your ethnicity, or country name.. because u cant change who u are!!
How can we change the name of Macedonia when that has been its name for thousands of years.. and how can we not call ourselves macedonians when thats what we have been for thousands of years. So what seems to you as greek names,symbols or history, seems to us like none-greek names,symbols,history. In other words we are macedonians so we have the right to call our country republic of macedonia.. also we do not deny that half of macedonia is in greece. If greece wants to worship alexander the great as their own, us macedonians are not gonna tell you not to. But when we try to worship alexander the great as our own, greeks think they have the right to tell us that he had nothing to do with our macedonian identity? what makes greece so sure that its view on every historic event is the right view? what makes greece so sure that "slav" macedonians have nothing to do with ancient macedonians? You cannot just tell me ... "alexander the great spread greek culture bluh bluh bluh----the slavs came to macedonia 5th century a.d bluh bluh bluh---so alexander was greek, ancient macedonians were greek--you are slavs" <---thats what greeks are trying to tell us without looking more deeply into the whole situation.
When the slavs came to macedonia and the rest of the balkans.. where do u think the ancient macedonians went?? did they dissapear of the face of the earth?? no they didnt.. the slavs assimilated into the macedonian populations.. so greece cannot prove what may be perhaps the most important thing in the whole macedonian question, and that is: Did the ancient macedonians mix with the new tribes that came to macedonia (southern and northern macedonia) or did the ancient macedonians mix with todays greek populations?? <--and why would they mix with todays greek populations when the ancient macedonians lived around Salonika, florina, kastoria, Bitola, Ohrid, Strumica, Prilep region! in other words, they lived in over half the territory of greek macedonia and in over half the territory of Republic of macedonia. And that is where the ancient macedonians remained to live in when the slavs came. So we have every right to be macedonians! The ancient macedonians never lived south of mount olympus (greece)... so todays macedonian minority in greek macedonia which anthens calls "skopyans-slavs-bulgarians etc" they are the rightfull owners of that land as macedonians. Just like macedonians in the republic of macedonia are no "new-commers" and are its rightfull owners of that land.
|
| Strelec |
quote:
Originally posted by f9
...BORDERLINE! SHOULD BE LITTLE BIT MORE TO SOUTH.
WTF!? little bit!?:)
|
| Christian |
Solun e nas[:)] |
| jamajka |
Ako odime na jug ne zastanuvame do Krit :) |
| mafisKumA |
msiriv and your point is?
ma ke mu odam na zivci samo so ova prasajne
|
| Strelec |
Hahahha!:))) There is a pointless!:)))
|
| mafisKumA |
Aco znam mene kolku mi odi na zivci sinmi maliot ko ke mu dam lekcia za nesto i na kraj on ke mi reci "and your point is?" [;)][:p] pa se nadevam i na ovaj smotaniov isto jas ke mu odam na zivci [:D][^]
|
| Thunder from down under |
amor mafis sho ne mu recish BLADI PUFTA |
| mafisKumA |
quote:
Originally posted by Thunder from down under
amor mafis sho ne mu recish BLADI PUFTA
hahahahahahahah ama mejgu bladi i pufta fali onaj zboron kako bese sto pocnuvase so bukvata F [:I][:I][;)][:I][:I]
|
| msiriv |
http://www.gate.net/~mango/Badian.htm
|
| Thunder from down under |
msirv, does your boyfriend knows that you are coming to a Macedonian forum? |
| msiriv |
is that your mama flashing her boobs in the animation?
Respect...
Michalis |
| Thunder from down under |
your poor virgin sister
virgin becouse greeks are using wrong hole
Macedonians will take your greek head on now and regain our stolen land
and nobody will help the greeks,because nobody likes greeks they have no friends
so be prepared |
| Froso |
I have a question then in regards to this debate. Well a few questions.
Rosetta Stone (196bc)--in Greek, demotic & heiroglyphics is what it is written in. In that time frame, all archeological items that have been found...nothing with the "Macedonian" language.
Alexander the Great was a "Macedonian.
Ancient Greece at that time was divided into states...such as Athens, Sparta, Thrace etc etc. Many looked upon the Spartans as being barbarians and non-Greeks for a time due to their warrior ways. Yet, they were Greek.
Anywayz, since Alexander the Great was so "GREAT"...would he not have enforced that people speak his language? Therefore conclusion is that if indeed this Macedonian language existed...there would be some proof today. Yet there is not.
In ancient times Macedonians spoke Greek, worshipped Greek gods, expressed their creativity through Greek art and maintained a refined Greek culture ... all archaeological discoveries continue to unearth more information attesting to the indisputable Greekness of Macedonia.
Out of the blue, in 1944, the Yugoslav communist leader, Tito, wishing to weaken Serbia on the one hand, and set the footing for future territorial claims against Greece on the other, schemingly gave South Serbia the Greek name 'Macedonia' and re-wrote the 'history' books to declare that ancient Macedonia was Slavic and that these people were descendants of Alexander the Great.
The Old Testament (Daniel Ch. 8) and the New Testament (Acts Ch. 17) confirm the Greekness of Alexander and the Macedonians.
It was the Greek language that was taken to Asia (Bible written in Greek) and cities with Greek names and institutions that were founded.
There are 60,000 archaeological finds that confirm that the Macedonians were Greek in language, culture and religion.
Your nation should be called Vardarska. Not FYROM..not Northern Macedonia...but Vardarska. That is the root of origin.
So my apologies but given this wonderful thing called freedom of speech..I am expressing an opinion not just of Greeks, but of educated people & nations.
I am a true Makedona my friends.
[:D][:D][:D] |
| protivpropaganda |
quote:
So my apologies but given this wonderful thing called freedom of speech..I am expressing an opinion not just of Greeks, but of educated people & nations.
I am a true Makedona my friends.[:o)]
What can I say? Frustrated greeks are always an inspiration for a good laugh.
I am now going to use, not abuse, that wonderful thing called freedom of speech to tell this yunanistanian some facts.
First of all I do wish to express a christian love towards all of the frustrated greeks that have come to this forum to tell someone else how he or she should call themselves. This is because they are just a product of propaganda and should not be considered as normal thinking humans, only a product of propaganda.
Now lets get down to the basics. One of the most important basics here is the fact that someone in this day of age goes around telling others what they must call themselves. If this isn`t dumb enough then claiming apsolute truth to one`s own cause IS!!! This by itself is an indisputable argument against the products of propaganda that look like human beings.
Now the rest of the basics are as follows:
1. I guess that no one has ever told them about an agreement in Bucharest that ended the Balkan wars in 1913 or should I say the exact time that the Aegean part of Macedonia fell into the hands of greece. They know nothing about an agreement of such a sort. WHY?
2. They have been told that in 1947 there was a civil war. Greeks against greeks. What a laugh!!! This slanted information that they eat up would be considered truth only if the french and the english armies didn`t bombard those other "greeks" to a pulp and forced them to flee to the liberated part of Macedonia for their life while cleansing the population of a territory. Pure genocide.
3. No one told them that if they scratch of a little paint from "their" old church walls they will see other pictures painted from oneother people who are not greeks or that if they dig up to a 2 meter level that they will find human bones, that is, a lot of greek homes were built over Macedonian cemeteries or should I say built to accomodate the greeks who came from Turkey to settle the cleansed territory. No one told them that their children play over graves of other christians. The question here is DO THEY REALLY CARE THAT THEY LIVE AND STEP OVER OTHER CHRISTIAN GRAVES???
4. Now this one is a doosie!!! Before the year 1990, give or take a year, the official greek policy was that Macedonians were extinct and that they don`t exist just to change their policy to that which we know now and that is that they are the Macedonians. If this isn`t enough to prove that they are only products of propaganda and not human beings of indepedent thought then the fact that they gobbled this propaganda trick up so readily that they now actually think that they are Macedonians only proves that our southern neighbours have a very low IQ or that they are evil. People without remorse who only call themselves christians. I think the bible does give a definition for these kind of humanoids with the number 666 actually the followers not the actual boogie man who will lead.
Anyway, now they consider themselves as hellenic greek Macedonians. Three for the price of one! A real bargain. What they really are is only a nation highly controlled by propaganda and we know that where propaganda has taken control free thought isn`t an option. We as christians should pity them instead of getting angry at them because they don`t know and can`t know what they are doing. Their highly collectivized society forces them to except outgoing lies or they will be casted out. Nothing different from the other nations on the Balkan penninsula. Just when a nation on the Balkan thinks it is independent is the moment when they realise that they are only a tool for the global forces and their interests. Let me tell you that greek historians do know the real truth but are scared shitless to let it out other historians throughout the world also do know the truth but interests and propaganda are stronger than truth. That is why history on the Balkan penninsula is scewed.
P.S.
mafisKumA,
"and my point was..."
Love ya[:X] |
| Divider |
Also, Filip kicked greeks asses and danced over their dead bodies. Yeah, something very greek. Something you do to your own while singing ("barbaric" acc. Demosthenes) songs. |
| Thunder from down under |
EVERY DOG HAS HIS DAY
|
| concrete |
Froso,
the Rosetta Stone (196bc)-- Do you have a good high resolution picture ????
Or info where such file can be downloaded. |
| msiriv |
Mafis I don't see your point. Perhaps you should improve your English a little bit, to make your absurd ideas more comprehensible. |
| msiriv |
"Macedonians will take your greek head on now and regain our stolen land and nobody will help the greeks,because nobody likes greeks they have no friends so be prepared"
Whatever...poor Greece is so alone and hated by everyone. I wonder how we ended up being a respected member of all significant international organizations, the most important being E.U and organizing such a succesful olympic games.
I hope this kind of fascist mind-set is not the majority in your country. |
| msiriv |
Rosetta Stone: http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/writing/rosetta.html.
God ppl start using Google to do some decent research and stop being so ignorant. |
| mafisKumA |
quote:
Originally posted by msiriv
Mafis I don't see your point. Perhaps you should improve your English a little bit, to make your absurd ideas more comprehensible.
ajm sori aj no andrsten engish vil ju tich mi pliz [:D][:p][;)][8D]
P.S. and your point is [?]
|
| Froso |
See the thing is that we can sit here debating over and over again. While "my" side...the Greek if you will is able to provide you with proof of our existence, proof that Macedonia was Greek...etc etc...none of you have come up with any proof.
You are all quick to sit there and point the finger. You are all quick to accept someone else's culture as your own...but show me where is the proof. Show me what your "Makedonski" nation was made of prior to the 1900's. Prior to 1800? Can you? Of course not. Because there is nothing to show. YOU HAVE NO HISTORY.
Show me where your language was created. Show me when. Show me that the Macedonians of that region in Alexander's time & beyond & prior if you will spoke this "Macedonian" language. Show me the artifacts that were found proving this. Show me a nation that knows its history that accepts you all as "Macedonians'without a political agenda..there is none. I dare you to show me.
So instead of you all throwing your insults...try an intelligent reply.
Oh and point of note msirivia, you shouldn't be addressing them re sy as Macedones. They're not. Vardarski yes. Vulgari yes. Macedones...nah.
[:D][:D][:D] |
| BorisVM |
quote:
Originally posted by Froso
See the thing is that we can sit here debating over and over again. While "my" side...the Greek if you will is able to provide you with proof of our existence, proof that Macedonia was Greek...etc etc...none of you have come up with any proof.
You are all quick to sit there and point the finger. You are all quick to accept someone else's culture as your own...but show me where is the proof. Show me what your "Makedonski" nation was made of prior to the 1900's. Prior to 1800? Can you? Of course not. Because there is nothing to show. YOU HAVE NO HISTORY.
Show me where your language was created. Show me when. Show me that the Macedonians of that region in Alexander's time & beyond & prior if you will spoke this "Macedonian" language. Show me the artifacts that were found proving this. Show me a nation that knows its history that accepts you all as "Macedonians'without a political agenda..there is none. I dare you to show me.
So instead of you all throwing your insults...try an intelligent reply.
Oh and point of note msirivia, you shouldn't be addressing them re sy as Macedones. They're not. Vardarski yes. Vulgari yes. Macedones...nah.
[:D][:D][:D]
Froso,
let us just for a second, for the sake of argument, assume that you are correct.
Does it really matter? I am Macedonian, I was born Macedonian and there is no force in this world that can tell me otherwise.
Based on this information, does your opinion really count? Not really. The rest of the world, thanks to the good old Texas Justice, is finally starting to catch up as well.
|
| Froso |
Protivpropaganda, since you are in the nation of FYROM...why don't you dig two metres down to prove your ancestorial existence?
Proof. Not words that can be carried on the wind only to disappear.
[;)] [;)] [;)] |
| mafisKumA |
quote:
Originally posted by Froso
See the thing is that we can sit here debating over and over again. While "my" side...the Greek if you will is able to provide you with proof of our existence, proof that Macedonia was Greek...etc etc...none of you have come up with any proof.
You are all quick to sit there and point the finger. You are all quick to accept someone else's culture as your own...but show me where is the proof. Show me what your "Makedonski" nation was made of prior to the 1900's. Prior to 1800? Can you? Of course not. Because there is nothing to show. YOU HAVE NO HISTORY.
Show me where your language was created. Show me when. Show me that the Macedonians of that region in Alexander's time & beyond & prior if you will spoke this "Macedonian" language. Show me the artifacts that were found proving this. Show me a nation that knows its history that accepts you all as "Macedonians'without a political agenda..there is none. I dare you to show me.
So instead of you all throwing your insults...try an intelligent reply.
Oh and point of note msirivia, you shouldn't be addressing them re sy as Macedones. They're not. Vardarski yes. Vulgari yes. Macedones...nah.
[:D][:D][:D]
What possessed you to entertain the idea that your condescending posts warrant an intellectual reply?
I’d hate to burst your bubble but the world DOES NOT revolve around Greece. GET OVER IT !!!!!
|
| vulgaren |
This is what your fuckin greek archbishop writes - no better than Milosevic - you greeks are made of same shit and USA knows that.
Archbishop Christodoulos stressed that the use of the name "Macedonia" by FYROM is more than a simple and innocent cultural misappropriation, pointing out that the cultural aspect of the issue is a permanent cause of passion stirring while he also referred to the occupation by Greece's neighbors of part of the Greek Macedonia during both World Wars.
He also mentions that the history of southeastern Europe has been colored by the harboring of insatiable irredentism that often led to armed conflicts not limited to the area in question. Specifically on FYROM, he pointed out that irredentism appears at two levels, the Slav and the Albanian, and for this reason is regarded more explosive.
Therefore, mentioned the Archbishop, the Greeks believe that the recognition of the neighboring to Greece FYROM under the name "Macedonia" does not serve any Balkan state because it raises the temperature on tension and suspicion in the region, while it appears to vindicate all those who build their history with stolen material and rewards all those who keep the spark of disorder and permanent instability burning in a crucial region for Europe and in times of constant tension. |
| vulgaren |
and greeks leave history - you are merchants - you dont have philosophers or artists or generals - you are not the hellens once were.
you are modern greek shitheads..thats all. |
| protivpropaganda |
quote:
Originally posted by Froso
Protivpropaganda, since you are in the nation of FYROM...why don't you dig two metres down to prove your ancestorial existence?
Proof. Not words that can be carried on the wind only to disappear.
[;)] [;)] [;)]
WHAT!!![:0]
Is this all?
Where are your arguments now greek?
Oh well, I am used to it. There has been no greek individual that can, with arguments, rebute those little hard truths that show a huge amount of discrepancies in greek politics.
BTW I strongly advise against digging in Macedonia or to be a little more precise in Macedonia there are only 3 sorts of archeological finds: Slovenic (whatever that is), Roman and before Roman finds. Now you tell me what the hell are "before Roman" archeological finds? One can not dig in an archeological site unless he has a permit from the government, but such a permitt is never given. Only state sponsored archeologists can dig and they have the right to dig only up to the point when they get to a Roman period. If a "before Roman" find appears and it can`t be hidden then it is not recorded or it is just explained as a fluke.
Wild diggers are rampant throughout the country!!!
Want to know why?
Ofcourse you do because you want the truth, right?
Well, whatever they find they sell it to your government!!![:0] Imagine that!!!
Whatever they find is sold to the greek government because they pay handsomely while their own government will not award them but punish them!!![:0]
I guess you want to know why, don`t you?
Well, a lot of our head honchos in history have made large careers in proving that we are slavs and that we came from the Karpathian mountains and if any link that proves that no one came or went from Macedonia appears then their work will prove false and their career bullshit. Only archeological finds that prove their theories are valid.
Here`s oneother little fact of enourmous significance for your mental health and that is that in the before mentioned Bucharest agreement there is a clause that says that if a country appears from the Macedonians then the territories would have to be given back. Imagine that!!! No wonder greeks are claiming that we don`t exist or should I say that it lies to its own people manipulating them to think that they are the Macedonians.[:0] Also that agreement states that each government that has obtained a portion of Macedonia has an obligation to help the Macedonians to form their own country.[:0] HMMMM
If you are not getting paid to propagate lies then I strongly suggest that you stop immidiately or go and seek psychiatric help because, man, your collective has indeed screwed your mind up!!! I am sure that you have much better things to do. Go out there and live your life free from hate.
Be a free thinker!!! Be human not codge in the machine!!! |
| mafisKumA |
quote:
Originally posted by protivpropaganda
P.S.
mafisKumA,
"and my point was..."
Love ya[:X]
te lavam, [:D] keep up the good work [^]
Mutual admiration bestows upon one a sense of a really warm fuzzy feeling.[:I][;)][:X]
|
| Froso |
Now see here. How is it that I post a reply to this topic..yet vulgaren..you're only response is to be vulgar (I did notice similarities to the name..a rethink may be due?)...mafisKuma...yes I do expect an answer to be honest with you...and yes if it's not too much to ask an intelligent one substantiated with proof..actual facts my friend..not mud slinging...and protivpropaganda....you still haven't given me any proof. Empty words only.
Back to the "makedonski" theory...Greece at that time (yes not known as but for sake of argument the name "Greece" shall be used)..was made up of nation states...here is an example:
Sparta.
Ever hear of General Leonidas of Sparta? Not of Greece mind you. Of Sparta. Well that is not a nation now called Sparta. It's a city. It's also a part of Greece. [;)] As was the nation of Crete. As was Thessaly. As was Thrace. As was Athens. I believe that you get my point so far right? If not ..feel free to google. [:D]
Same as Alexanders' Macedonia. Anything that was north of Athens...was considered barbaric. However, Philip..& his son Alexander...being great Greeks with forsight [:D] saw that in order to put off the Persians...all states of Greece needed to unite. Do you really believe that all of the ancient Hellenes would follow a man who was not really one of them? If there was (again I know I'm repeating myself but what they hey...)a "makedonski" language as you see it...why didn't Alexander incorporate it anywhere? Especially since his word was law. Especially since he allowed the Persians and other nations to maintain their culture, language and allowed inter racial marriage? Contradictory claim on your parts to say the least.
Your language is Cyrillic with Glagiolitic (an old Slavic script)used for the original Slavonic language).Cyrillic is derived from the Greek alphabe. This Cyrillic was introduced by Saint Cyril...Of the two "Apostles to the Slavs," Cyril (originally named Constantine) died in 869; Methodius, in 885. They were the sons of a subordinate military officer named Drungarius, born at Thessalonica, of Greek descent, and a Bulgarian woman.
So at the end of the day...It is all GREEK to me
[:D][:D][:D] |
| mafisKumA |
quote:
Originally posted by Froso
So at the end of the day...It is all GREEK to me
[:D][:D][:D]
I beg to differ but it sounds like Double Dutch to me [:p][:D][:X][:o)][:p]
P.S. se izvinavam sto upotrebuvam boja ama neke imase isti impact bez boja [:D]
|
| Divider |
Four things:
1.Izvadeno od Bukuresskuiot dogovor od 1913 za podelbata na Makedonija:
4. GREECE'S GAIN IN TERRITORY.
The boundary line separating Greece from Bulgaria was drawn from the crest of Mount Belashitcha to the mouth of the Mesta River, on the Aegean Sea. This important territorial concession, which Bulgaria resolutely contested, in compliance with the instructions embraced in the notes which Russia and Austria-Hungary presented to the conference, increased the area of Greece from 25,014 to 41,933 square miles and her population from 2,660,000 to 4,363,000. The territory thus annexed included Epirus, southern Macedonia, Salonika, Kavala, and the Aegean littoral as far east as the Mesta River, and restricted the Aegean seaboard of Bulgaria to an inconsiderable extent of 70 miles, extending from the Mesta to the Maritza, and giving access to the Aegean at the inferior port of Dedeagatch. Greece also extended her northwestern frontier to include the great fortress of Janina. In addition, Crete was definitely assigned to Greece and was formally taken over on December 14, 1913.
2. The great Athenian statesman Demostenes, spoke of Philip 2nd:
"Philip 2nd cannot be a friend of the Greeks. He is not only no Greek, not even related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."
If he separates us from them in time when you, boulgars, were still somewhere in the steppes and around Volga than what more do you want. You want to know more? Why are we ancient and you thieves of history. Why are we normal and you are bigots? read on:
"When the uproar had ended, Paul sent for the disciples and, after encouraging them, said good-by and set out for Macedonia. He travelled through that area, speaking many words of encouragement to the people, and finally arrived in Greece, where he stayed three months. Because the Jews made a plot against him just as he was about to sail for Syria, he decided to go back through Macedonia."
The Holy Bible - Acts 20:1-3
Greek propagandists claim that ancient Macedonia was Greek. Why then, would the Holy Bible distinguish between the two?
359BC
Philip becomes regent of the small kingdom of Macedonia on the death of his brother, King Perdiccas, whose son is a mere child. Philip, aged 22, already displays unusual diplomatic and military acumen.
356BC
Amyntas, son of the late King Perdiccas, is deposed and Philip is confirmed as absolute king. He signs a pact with the Chalcidian league which names Athens as the common enemy, and goes on to take the city of Potidaea. During the year Philip has more good news: his horse wins at Olympia and his wife, Olympias, gives birth to a son, Alexander.
351BC
The orator Demosthenes denounces the expansionist policies of Philip of Macedon and castigates his fellow citizens for their lack of awareness.
348BC
Philip of Macedon takes Olynthus by siege and utterly destroys it, securing control of the Chalcidice peninsula. When the Chalcidian league learnt of Philip's intentions, they broke with their former ally and appealed to Athens. Convinced by Demonsthenes, Athens at last sent an expeditionary force - but it was too late.
346BC - Despised Macedonia crushes the Greeks in the "Sacred War"
The Sacred War, waged for the last ten years for possession of Greece's supreme oracle at Delphi, has ended with Philip of Macedon, despised as a barbarian by the Athenians, winning ascendancy over Greece. This unforeseen result of yet another internecine quarrel bodes ill for the city states.
It started when the Thebans, who controlled the Amphictiony, the multi-state council which administers the shrine, forced through a threat of war against the Phocians unless they paid a fine for cultivating sacred ground.
The Phocians, who had once had control of Delphi, chose to go to war to re-establish their position, but there then followed a period of cruel, confused warfare during which the Phocians were generally successful. But then the war drew in the ambitious Philip, who saw his opportunity to seize Greek territory.
His advance and involvement in Greek affairs drew bitter attacks from Demonsthenes, who issued the first of his "Philippics" in 351BC. Athens belatedly sent an army to help Athens' allies besieged by Philip at Olynthus.
It was too little and too late. Philip captured the city and razed it to the ground. Phocis has now been forced to sue for peace and Philip the Barbarian holds power in Greece.
346BC - "Puny Village" becomes a hub of empire
Pella, the capital of the Ancient Macedonian Empire
Athenian propaganda asserting that the Macedonian capital, Pella, is 'a puny little village' (as Demosthenes, the anti-Macedonian lobbyist, has suggested) is contradicted by eye-witness accounts of recent travellers who visited it.
Far from its being an inaccessible shanty town, they say, it is approaced by a well-engineered road some 30 feet wide. It is ona vast fertile plain flanked by the sea, with a thriving port. This prime site was developed some 50 years ago by King Archelaus. Elegant buildings, with walls six feet thick, are decorated with rare pebble mosaics, Ionic and Doric colonnades, and three-foot roof tiles stamped "Pella".
The palace contains murals by the great artist Zeuxis. Standards of public hygiene, water supply and drainage match the aesthetic quality of the city. The plays of Euripides are performed and the heir to the throne, young Alexander, has Aristotle as a visiting tutor. Pella is unquestionably the hub of a growing empire.
340BC - Macedonia Conquers Thrace, a flourishing kingdom of contrasts renowned for warlike shepherds and sophisticated jewellery
After 20 years at war, Macedonians under Philip II are beginning to take stock of the huge and wealthy Thracian empire they now control.
With lands that stretch from the Danube to the Bosporus, Philip II now rules one of the most culturally, economically and politically advanced regions in the world.
Thracian treasure with its fine filigree work in silver and gold is internationally famous, with Thracian craftsmen setting new standards in fashioning jewellery, helmets and breastplates in gold and silver. Much noted are those decorated with unusual combinations of human and animal subjects, reflecting Thrace's eastern influences.
This ability to generate items of wealth was a weapon in the unsuccessful campaign by Thrace's last overall ruler, Kotys, to win allies and influence friends.
Kotys tried to unite Thrace's tribes of wild shepherds into an empire, reminiscent of the Persians' that would extend from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean.
339BC
Hostilities are renewed between Athens and Macedonia, marking the start of the fourth Sacred War. Philip II occupies Elateia, two days' march from Attica. Demosthenes saves the day for the panic-stricken Athenians by engineering an alliance between Athens and Thebes.
338BC
Philip II of Macedon defeats the combined forces of Athens and Thebes at the battle of Chaeronea. With the surrender of Thebes the Boeotian league is dissolved. Philip imposes peace terms on Athens which include allying with Macedonia and dissolving the Athenian league. Struck by the generosity of their conqueror, the Athenians offer citizenship to Philip and his son, Alexander.
337BC - Philip of Macedon conquers the Greeks
After a decisive defeat by Philip II of Macedon, Athenian leaders have accepted peace on terms which effectively end the traditional independence of Greek city states. In a war which began more than 20 years ago, the Macedonian "barbarian" has proved himself a master of political strategy as well as a military genius. He has used the wiles of diplomacy, marriage, banking, corruption and sabotage. His military coups include the defeat of Illyria to the north, together with Athens' maritime ally, Chalcidice, to secure his southern Aegean flank and the remorseless occupation of mainland cities.
Athens, a tardy opponent, held his advance after a long battle in 352BC to control the strategic Thermopylae Pass. Philip used a temporary peace with Athens to join Thebes in its "Sacred War" against Phocis. Theses, a hollow victor, was spent. The real winner was Philip.
Other governments anointed him as a peacemaker, but in 341BC he attacked Athens' allies in Thrace-Gallipoli. Renewed warfare culminated in an evenly-matched combat at Chaeronea last year. The turning point was a feigned retreat by Philip behind piles of corpses, enticing the Athenians into hot pursuit and an ambush. This was sprung by seasoned Macedonian cavalry, led by Philip's son Alexander.
3. Macedonia in the Bible / Macedonia – the Second Fatherland of Christianity
THE BIBLE - UNSURPASSED METAPHORICAL SPEECH OF HISTORY
"Religion is a cultural fact as universal as fire itself"
Jacques Sustelle
Macedonia is an ancient country and the Macedonians an ancient people, appearing in the Bible together with other prominent ancient nations with pre-Christian civilisations. Nonetheless, do we have the right to such a categorical assertion, or is it a thesis based on any scientific criteria or facts?
Contemporary science has confirmed the significance of the Bible as a significant treasury of historical facts, an authentic collection of ascertained historical truths.
Thanks to information in the Bible, Schliemann discovered the archaeological layers on the hill of Hissarlik where Homeric Troy was located. We should also bear in mind that not so long ago Homer himself was considered a mythological figure and his poems - myths! Also, thanks to the Bible, Austen Layard discovered ancient Nineveh, and Rassan discovered clay tablets beneath the dust and ashes of the biblical Assurbanipal, on which, among other things, the most important literary work of ancient Mesopotamia - the great Gilgamesh Epic was inscribed in cuneiform. Beginning with numerous pointed leads in the Bible, Wally first discovered Chaldean Ur and then proved that the great flood depicted in Gilgamesh was remarkably similar to the flood described in the Bible, which is undoubtedly a historical fact!
The fifty books of the Old Testament, written over the course of fifteen centuries B.C., and the twenty-seven books of the New Testament, written in the first century A.D., have sheltered and preserved what was most sacred and wisest in pre-Christian civilisation. As a result, many messages and works from the pre-Biblical world, many legends, poems and traditions have been saved for all time. "Compared with all the ancient monuments that refer to ethnographic issues - no other document is as comprehensive as the Bible. It is a real treasury of historical facts; in it we find the earliest historical data about many nations, among which the Macedonian nation has a significant place. At the very beginning (1 Moses 10:4), we find accounts of Macedonia, which point to the fact that the Macedonians have been known as an individual ethnic group since the earliest of times. The ethnographic chart in Chapter 10 of Genesis is an ethnographic document, and since it dates back to the time of Moses (15th-13th centuries B.C.), it supplies data about nations existing on our planet in even more distant times. Moses most probably composed the ethnographic chart on the basis of even older Jewish records written down in the course of the many centuries of their existence, and in all probability brought to Chaldea by Abraham.
MACEDONIA - CHRISTIANITY'S SECOND FATHERLAND, THE COUNTRY IN WHICH THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN
Not only does Chapter 10 of Genesis talk about Macedonia and the Macedonians, but also the Fourth Book of Moses, the books of the Maccabees, and the books of the prophets Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah. And not only is Macedonia spoken of in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament as well. Macedonia and the Macedonians are mentioned in the works of the holy apostles Saint Paul and Saint Luke. However, the most significant data about Macedonia in the Bible are related to the apostle Paul's life and deeds. Let us point out only that it was in Macedonia that he undertook his first and most important Christian mission outside Palestine, together with the apostle Luke.
Macedonia is not only a country mentioned in the Bible, but it is also the only country on the European continent in which some parts of the New Testament were written. The apostle Paul wrote the Second Epistle to the Corinthians and the First Epistle to Timothy in Philippi. The apostle Luke also wrote his gospel in Philippi, which, together with the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark and John, is a fundamental, principal work of Christianity. We should also not overlook the fact that three epistles in the New Testament were addressed to Macedonian church communities: The First Epistle to the Thessalonians, The Second Epistle to the Thessalonians and The Epistle to the Philippians. It is not a coincidence that the famous biblicist Gredner, when talking about the adoption of Christianity by the Macedonians in Philippi, points out that "after Philippi, the Gospel conquered the world!"
This is an apt moment to ask the question: Why did Paul the Apostle come to preach the new idea first in Macedonia and not in some other European country? How shall we explain this fact? What was it that attracted the attention of this apostle? There can only be one explanation: Paul the Apostle was a brilliant man who knew very well that in order to spread his gospel successfully he should win over to his side a renowned and dignified nation, equal to the Romans in the strength of its spirit. In those ancient times Macedonia was such a nation. To deny the existence of Macedonia and the Macedonians means to deny the truthfulness of the Bible, and the work and the epistles of the greatest among the apostles, Paul. Everybody knows that Paul the Apostle preached among the Macedonians, established church communities in Macedonia, sent epistles to the Macedonians in Philippi and Thessalonica, which have endured as an integral part of the Bible, read daily by cultured Christian people.
Macedonia is a biblical country, and the Macedonians a biblical people: "Macedonia was the second homeland to Paul the Apostle and the second homeland of Christianity itself."
Saint John Chrysostom identifies the name of the city of Philippi with the name of Macedonia. To Saint John, who lived in the second half of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth century A.D., to love Philippi was to love the whole of Macedonia.
Not only Saint John Chrysostom, but also Polycarp of Smyrna (second century A.D.), in one of his letters to the Philippians indirectly implies that Philippi and Thessalonica are cities that belong to the same country and to the same people. "What is important is the fact that the Macedonians, even in the second century A.D., after so many centuries under the heel of the Romans, managed to preserve themselves as a separate ethnic group. That was immediately before the coming of the Slavs to the Balkans and their settlement on Macedonian territory, which means that when they came, the Slavs met the old Macedonian population, ethnically different from the Greeks and other ethnic groups populating the area."
4.excrept from the Bible:
Paul revisited the churches in Macedonia, then went to Greece, where he stayed for three months. As he was about to sail to Syria, some Jews laid wait for him, so he returned through Macedonia.
Enough proof or someone needs more. I can get them, do not worry. |
| protivpropaganda |
quote:
protivpropaganda....you still haven't given me any proof. Empty words only
.
Hey greek! You are becoming tiresome with your evasion of a decent argumentative conversation but entertaining enough for me to keep slapping you with hard inevitable truths which you can`t explain. Don`t worry though, not one greek has ever succeeded in explaining them so, as you can see, you are no special exception. It would have been better to discuss such matters with a neighbour greek than a greek who has never seen his homeland. Nevertheless I have decided that I will go on playing with my new found toy until I get bored with it, this means you.
BTW
ARE YOU GETTING PAID FOR DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING?
Don`t you have something better to do? Even though you got free psychiatric advice you still keep showing your face here. Does this mean emptyheadedness or a lack of a life of your own?
What more proof do you want? Oh, I know! You want to know why does a country that is 5 times larger than Macedonia is scared shitless of us? Don`t you find it illogical that a millitary and economic force such as is greece on the Balkan penninsula is scared of a small Macedonian nation? I mean it is silly isn`t it! Maybe it isn`t. That Bucharest agreement packs a strong punch in the face of idiotic Balkan politics, doesn`t it. One thing I can say about greek politics is that it has to have interior and exterior enemies in order to keep on with the mind job that it does to its people. That`s what you get when you support an ellitistic democracy.
What more proof do you want? Did you mean material proof? WHY? When all the proof of our existence is in your museums. Imagine 2000 years in the future an archeologist comes to the Balkan penninsula and starts digging. While digging he comes to a Coca Cola can and says eureka I found an American settlement. That`s what you are doing. Just because the Hellenes were the most advanced people at that time something simmiliar to the USA today that anybody that used the Hellenic alphabet must be Hellenic. BTW, what makes you so sure that you ARE a Hellene and not a Mavaric tribe called Grekoi that settled in the territory of greece (Ellada)? Very pretenciuos of you isn`t it?
Also I would like to add that genetic tests that have been done by European institutions clearly show that we, the Macedonians, have a stronger genetic connection with people living in Crete than we have with any people living north of the Balkan penninsula. Oh, I see, you didn`t know this, did you? I also believe that you didn`t know that todays greeks are geneticaly simmiliar to subsaharan people, Mavars to be exact. Material proof of this is easily obtainable but only if you are interested. All you have to do is contact one of those institutions.
What more proof do you want? You want documents as proof? I gave you a very strong document, the Bucharest agreement. Do you want oneother, or should I say a whole bunch of them. Look in the Byzantine records. In them you will find proof which states that all the tribes on the Balkan penninsula were slavenized. WHAT THE F..K![:0] Slavenized!!! What in the world does this mean? Does this mean that you are also a slav? YES IT DOES!!! But it also means and it ONLY means that those tribes have accepted the christian faith. So slav, how does it feel to be a part of the slavic (christian) association.
Now, the pan-slavic theory is a whole different matter which is only Russia`s wish to become a colonial force and nothing else and how that wish was stopped from spreading by Hellenizing a Mavaric tribe called grekoi with the help of the then colonial forces of England and France. You know, those same countries that helped cleanse the territory that you call yours from its native inhabitants in 1947.
... and your point is? |
| Froso |
Mavaric eh? Hmmm is this another nation that you are trying to bring into existence? Lmao@u.
Ah well sweet dreams my friends & I do mean that with all my heart.
Still no substantial proof has been provided, apart from a bedtime story that has been passed down thru the ages. |
| Froso |
btw...what language did Alexander use to speak with his soldiers? Especially the ones from the southern Hellenic region?
Thought so.
[:D][:D][:D] |
| protivpropaganda |
Froso,
You have just proven yourself boring beyond belief!!!
No facts, no arguments, no points made.
You are, as of now, put on IGNORE!!!
Bye, Bye, see you never!!! |
| Thunder from down under |
quote:
Originally posted by Froso
btw...what language did Alexander use to speak with his soldiers? Especially the ones from the southern Hellenic region?
Thought so.
[:D][:D][:D]
maybe the one who brainwashed you was present at the time and heard what language was spoken?
like your dirty greek police was listening under the Macedonian houses and punish them if they spoke Macedonian
remember this greko !
1.)your nation is a fake nation, made from fake imagionary figures that never existed, with stolen culture, history and land,
2.)open a greek dictioanry and see what greece means , it comes from greko which means mixture of rubish people
|
| mafisKumA |
quote:
Originally posted by Thunder from down under
2.)open a greek dictioanry and see what greece means , it comes from greko which means mixture of rubish people
stvarno taka pisuva bre?, pa ti duri i dictionary si otvoril [:p][:o)]
according to Oxford dictionary:- Greek to me (colloq) = incomprehensible (this definition sums it all up) [^]
|
| vulgaren |
zar ne e vreme da se blokira i ovoj papagal?
izgleda im begaat od zooloska vo Solun. |
| vulgaren |
Macedonia today.
[img]http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/europe/Macedonia_rel92.jpg[/img] |