Virtual Macedonia Forums - Etimologija na Imeto Makedon(za edukacija na Tata)

Etimologija na Imeto Makedon(za edukacija na Tata)

Etimologija na Imeto Makedon(za edukacija na Tata)
mnik	Pred nekoj den gi listav starite forumi i citav raspravija za Etimologijata na imeto Makedon. Bugarin(Balgam) sakashe podetalno da mu se objasni vo vrska so toa, togash nemav vreme,a i sega malku ama eve: OBJASNUVANJE ZA ETIMOLOGIJATA NA IMETO „MAKEDON“ Prvoto i najinteresnoto e slednovo: koga zenata na nekomu umre, i poslem koga ozeni nova zena, za decata toa e na Makedonski, chist Makedonski se vika „MAKEJA“, izvedeno od „MAKE“ denes Majka. Plain English MAKEJA means stepmother. Od druga strana Prefiksot „MAK“ ima i vremensko znacenje, potocno povrzuvanje so nepominlivost na Vremeto, dolgovecnost. Toa moze da se vide i vrz osnova na zborovite „MAK-LJASH“ so znachenje se vrtka i suka bez cellno zosto vreme ne mu minuva, ne znae sto da pravi mu e dosadno. Zborot „MAKA-NJE“ kade –nje e samo nastavka se koristi koga nekoj zeme da maka od chorbata od chinijata ili ljutica ili ova ili ona. Toa isto trae mnogu, vremenski gledano e dosaden zoshto go pravi toa(Zatoa i nekoj izmislil i lazici.). „MAKA“ ima i drugo znachenje, toest e machno koga gi slushash bugarive kako se blamiraat probuvajki da ne ubedat vo neshto shto ne drzi voda, dosadni se be batka, i ne minit vreme, zamarat. (zapomni maka ne e suffering zoshto za toa imame drug zbor“STRADANJE, maka e poveke psihichki“) Pa kako shto ke vidish i tamu „MAK“ kako prefiks ima vremensko znachenje. Ili zborot „MAKARA“ so znacenje: mnogu dolg konec namotkan na edno drveno strapce, znaci konec bez kraj, pak vremenski povrzano, zosto ako konecot fatish da go odmotuvas ke ti se stori deka e bezkrajno dolgo. Zatoa i „MAKE“ podocna razvieno vo MAJKA, zoshto Vrskata so Majka si e neraskinliva, si bil vo neja 9 meseci, te doela te izchuvala i praktichno cel zivot, celo vreme e prisutna vo tvojot zivot, za razlika od Tatkoto koj shto vo onie vreminja bil chesto daleku od Doma -> (Mesto koe e moje). „DON“ e isto kako i „DOM“ , „DON-NAS“ (nie kako mrzlivi pisateli krateme nolgupati i bukvi vo zborovite) sto tocno pokazuva deka „DON“ znachi mestopolozba, mesto kade shto se nie navogjame, ili kako vo zborot „DON-E-KADE“ „DON“ stoi za mestopolozba , E si e „E“, „KADE“ si e kade, znachi na koje mesto se navogja, (donekade si vo pavo, donekade ne!! Ales Klar Tatar) „DON-NESI“ „DON“ mesto kade shto se navogjash, „NESI“ e nosi(dialekt, a i kokoshkite nesat jajca na svetov, posebno bugarskive), nosi go tamu kade shto se navogjam. Ponatamu od Zborot „DON“ e izvlechen zborot „DO“ DODEKA TREBA DA GO TERAM ZA DA RAZBERETE, do koje mesto, dokade, koje e mestoto kade shto treba da prekinam. I taka MKEDON e RodnoMesto ili Majchin Dom ili Majchino Mesto, kako i vo nashata deneshna Himna „Ne plachi Makedonijo Majko Mila“ ALLES KLAR i taka sega sakam da vidam nekoj shto ke mi a objasni Etimologijata na zborot Bulgar??? Za mene toa e ednakvo kako B'lgar -> Balgam!! ima nekoj protiv toa???? Od druga strana eve oste neshto za nashive nerazbrani sosedi: Na Makedonski (a ako ne se lazam beshe i na srbski) Zborot HORDA oznachuva tolpa na voini koji sardisuvaat nechija zemja, ili poednostavno recheno osvojuvaat nechija zemja. Kaj nas terminot nachesto se koristi vo negativna smisla kako "HORDA NA ZLOTO". I kako shto iskustvoto kazuva, Balgamite nekogash dochule neshto a ne razbrale pa aj ke se vikame Nie Hora bidejki neli site taka ne narekuvaat[:D]!! E aj kazi mi sega od kade nerazbranive Balgami si go oznachuvaat Narodot kako Horda, ako toa ne ostanalo povrzano so nivnite Hordi koji dojdoa od azija i okupiraa zemja na ovie prostori???[;)] i taka!! Sega ke ve ostavam so ova, i ke kinisam na chasovi, bidejki veke kasnam, se chitame natamu!!!
mnik	Open Letter to the Greek Government and Greek Public Florina / Lerin April 18, 2005 Read this page in Greek \| Read this page in Macedonian Given the debate that has ensued over recent days concerning the Macedonian issue and the relations between the Republic of Macedonia and Greece, we are obliged as a responsible political party to address the Greek society on this matter. The issue of the name and its effects on the relations between the two countries is a technical problem that our country has created. This has lead to a standoff, from which the government is now trying to extricate itself with the least possible (mainly internal) political cost. Externally Greece is trying to keep ahead of the game because, come this autumn, the Republic of Macedonia is expected to begin negotiations for accession to the EU. Given the present political conditions in Europe this process cannot be reversed. The prospect of this process is what led the Greek government to undertake its "initiative" at this time - because later the political price will be far greater. Naturally, at this political juncture, the blustering veto rhetoric issuing - or to be precise stammering - from lips of politicians and others, especially after Greece's hypocritical behavior in the Cyprus affair, can be charitably taken as babble. The issue of name is a pretext, put forth as the hindrance to the normalizing of interstate relations. Rainbow's political stand on this matter is based on the simple principle that what our neighboring country, or any other country, calls itself is solely the concern of the citizens of that country and that this is their unalienable, democratic individual and collective right. But because matters surrounding Macedonia are more serious than the conceptual and linguistic exercises put on paper by the Greek government, we are obliged to point out that the key to the so-called "Macedonian issue" lies elsewhere today. It is Greece's refusal (as well as Bulgaria's) to recognize the existence and to respect the rights of the Macedonian nation. This of course also entails its refusal to recognize the existence and the rights of the Macedonian minority in Greece. The problem that the Greek government presents has nothing to do with the cultural heritage of ancient Macedonia, or that a portion of Greek land bears the administrative name of the District of Macedonia, or that the neighboring state calls itself the Republic of Macedonia. What the Greek government stubbornly refuses to admit is that it does not agree with the ethnic use of the terms "Macedonia," or "Macedonian" because of the existence of the Macedonian minority in Greece. According to Greek nationalists, the Macedonian minority in Greece is likely to rise up in the future with separatist demands. This is the real, diachronic problem for every Greek government, and not the name. However, if the Greek government admits this, then it must also proceed with corresponding measures to recognize and respect the rights of the minority. Naturally, the unwavering Greek nationalist is incapable of seeing that it is precisely this refusal and repression that leads to nationalism, unrest and disturbances of the peace. For those champions of the compound "compromise" name, who, for sensationalist purposes, talk nonsense about geographical designations and make arguments of a "technical" nature about the international confusion caused by the our neighbor's use of the term Macedonia, things indeed could not be simpler. To clarify, the name per se of the state of the Republic of Macedonia is already a compound. The prefix "Republic of" in front of the word Macedonia denotes statehood and refers to another, distinct geographical region to the north of Greece. In other words, it has both political and geographical scope since the Republic of Macedonia as a political entity exists in a specific geographical region of Europe and nowhere else. Besides which, no region in Greece bears the name "Republic of Macedonia," which would cause confusion by the use of this term. It is as simple as that. As for the term Macedonian, today the majority of the inhabitants of Northern Greece commonly call themselves Greeks or "Greek Macedonians," not only because they are Greek citizens but also because they have chosen to belong to the Greek nation. The use of the term "Macedonian" by ethic Greeks is either a geographical specification or an ethnic one with the addition of the prefix "Greek" in front of the word "Macedonian." Members of the Macedonian minority in Northern Greece use the term "Macedonian" as an integral ethnic definition, like term "ethnic Macedonian," to distinguish themselves from the "Greek Macedonian." Where is the problem, as long there is mutual respect for whatever choice or whether any Greek citizen chooses a different version of the above? As for the broader nationalist issue in Greece, the time has come for certain leaders in our country to inform the average Greek citizen that contemporary nations, and by extension national states, such as the Greek state, have no relation to ancient heroes like Leonidas, Perikles or, in recent decades, to Alexander the Great's horse. That they are simply the result of continuously evolving European societies following the collapse of feudalism, primarily in the area of production and labor organization. That ethnic, linguistic, religious, political, ideological, etc., identities are the result of successive appropriations between persons and peoples throughout the course of human history, from the first appearance of human beings to the present day. That modern collective ethnic or national identities are not owed to the direct connection between today's nations and chosen ancient peoples, but are the common result of the ideological use of history by socially organized masses and their mechanisms, such as national states. That the modern Greek nation is simply a conglomeration of peoples, as is every nation in the Balkans and elsewhere. And that its Greek citizens have acquired a collective national consciousness through these mechanisms, primarily the education system, which have been crafting it gradually since the founding of the modern Greek state. Rainbow, in its activities as a political party from its founding in 1994 to present day, has repeatedly proclaimed that all borders between the Balkan states must be respected as unalterable for the sake of the peace and prosperity of the region's inhabitants. The minorities that exist in these states must refuse to become the tools of "Great Idea" notions and policies. Rather, they must develop relationships of solidarity and unity with the majority population and the other minorities in their respective countries. At this historical juncture, we would like to take the opportunity to publicly exempt the governments of the Republic of Macedonia for demonstrating unprecedented political maturity for a Balkan country, and maintaining a truly consistent, democratic, European stance in its political practice throughout these years. In contrast to the practices of its neighboring countries, it has never attempted in even the slightest way to interfere with or "exploit" the existence of Macedonian minorities in its neighboring countries. Rainbow, from its founding in 1994 to the present day, has had the good fortune of participating in the European political arena through its partnership with the European Free Alliance in the European Parliament. Rainbow therefore adheres to and implements a comparable political practice. It uses democratic and peaceful means to exert pressure on the Greek government to respect the rights of the Macedonian minority, as does every civilized and democratic state in today's Europe. At the same time, it seeks on the domestic level to strengthen its relations with all democratic Greek citizens. We believe that the level of democratization and true Europeanization of our country and our society is judged by how it behaves towards its minorities. Unfortunately, Greece has a democratic deficit in this area. We regret that in a European country such as Greece we do not enjoy even rudimentary minority rights, such as respect for our language and culture. As European citizens we also would like to have more support for our struggle from European institutions and EU political organs. It is our wish to have a Greece as well as a Europe that is peaceful, multicultural and as multicolored as a Rainbow. After all Europe today and in the world to come is and will always be our great, common homeland. The Political Secretariat of the Rainbow Party
mnik	No Compromise on the Name Macedonia By Risto Stefov Ever since the Republic of Macedonia declared its independence from the Yugoslav Federation in 1991, Greece has been doing everything it can to block its achievement of statehood and membership in world organizations. As soon as it became apparent to Greece that the Republic of Macedonia was going to declare its independence from Yugoslavia in the late 1980’s, Greece began a massive propaganda campaign both inside and outside of its borders, promoting the idea that Macedonia is exclusively Greek and that no one except Greece had the right to claim its ancient heritage, including its symbols, flags and name. This was echoed, loud and clear both inside and outside of Greece. In reality, however, should we carefully examine history, specifically 19th and 20th century history, we would find that Greece is a new nation, created for the first time in 1829 where one never existed before. It is a well known fact that 51% of Macedonia became Greek for the first time after Greece signed the Treaty of Bucharest on August 10, 1913. So Greece is hardly in a position to make historical claims on Macedonia prior to 1913. Allow me to elaborate. Greece, along with its allies Serbia and Bulgaria, annexed Macedonia by force in 1912 and partitioned it in 1913 without the consent of the Macedonian people. As a result of this forceful act, Greece illegally acquired 51% of Macedonia’s territory which it immediately named “New Territories”. A few years later as it consolidated its power and control over the Macedonian people, Greece renamed the “New Territories” to “Northern Greece”. Then during the late 1980’s, when it became clear that the Republic of Macedonia was going to declare its independence from Yugoslavia, Greece renamed “Northern Greece” to “Macedonia” or more precisely “Makethonia”. If I may add, if Greece truly believes “historic Macedonia is Greek” why did it sign the Treaty of Bucharest on August 10, 1913 agreeing to divide it between itself, Serbia and Bulgaria? Why did Greece, while signing this treaty, not complain to the Great Powers that the entire territory of historic “Macedonia belonged to Greece”? If Greece truly believed the name “Macedonia is Greek” why did it NOT complain when the Peoples’ Republic of Macedonia was declared part of the Yugoslav federacy in 1945? Also, if Greece is so much concerned about other nations using the name “Macedonia” why has it not complained to the United States of America for its use of the name Macedonia in US territory? Why is it that only Macedonians are not allowed to call their country Macedonia? If “Macedonians are Greek”, why did Greece change all Macedonian toponyms, family and given names to Greek sounding ones? Why did Greece forbid the use of the Macedonian language and made it illegal in Macedonia? If “Macedonians are Greek” from many centuries ago, why did Greece implement assimilation policies to forcibly turn Macedonians into Greeks? If “Macedonians are Greek”, why then are Macedonians born in Greece, who left Greece, not allowed to return? Are there two kinds of Macedonians living in Greece? Those who feel Macedonian and those who serve the Greek cause? If “Macedonia is Greek” then all of historic Macedonia must be Greek. By this logic then every Macedonian has a rightful claim to the ancient Macedonian heritage including the flags, symbols and most certainly the name. Why is Greece then objecting to the Republic of Macedonia calling itself Macedonia? Is not the republic of Macedonia part of historic Macedonia? If “Macedonians are Greeks” after all these years, why hasn’t Greece recognized them as a distinct national Macedonian minority? By “Macedonians” I mean those Macedonian people who are indigenous to the Macedonia territory that is today under Greek control. By Macedonian people I mean those people that lived in Macedonia before the 1912/1913 occupation and annexation. By Macedonian people I don’t mean those people who were imported from Asia Minor and settled on Macedonian territory during the early 1920’s or those people who were imported from Albania, the Caucuses and other realms. Like many tens of thousands of Macedonians, I am a Macedonian from Greece but Greece is refusing to recognize me as a Macedonian. In fact many Greeks refuse to even accept the idea that I am a Macedonian from Greece. So who then are these “Macedonians who are Greeks”? What are the qualifications to be a Macedonian from Greece? How many of these so called “Greek Macedonians” does Greece have? Why haven’t I seen any registered in their official statistics? The fact is that being a Macedonian from Greece, I have more in common with Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia than I do with the Greeks with whom I share my citizenship. 1. I speak the same (mother) language as the Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia, 2. I enjoy the same songs, dances and food as the Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia. 3. I go to the same Macedonian Orthodox Church as the Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia. 4. Goce Delchev is as much of a hero to me as he is to the people of the Republic of Macedonia. 5. I am as much a part of those Macedonians who fought in the 1903 Ilinden uprising to liberate Macedonia from the Ottoman as are the people from the Republic of Macedonia. Conversely, I have very little if anything in common culturally or historically with the Greeks. My natural (mother) language is Macedonian, not Greek. I had to learn Greek in school. Historical figures which some Greeks call their heroes are in fact my enemies because they committed atrocities against Macedonian people, all in the name of Hellenism. So please do not be offended when I ask you to call me Macedonian, the same as you would call my Macedonian compatriots in the Republic of Macedonia. No compromise on the name “Macedonia” either inside or outside of Greece means that Macedonians everywhere, inside or outside of Greece, will not accept to be called anything but Macedonian. It is not okay for Greece to call me anything other than Macedonian. I am Macedonian and that is what I want to be called by everyone, including Greece. Many tens of thousands of Macedonians from Greece, like me are not Greek and feel akin to: 1. the Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia, 2. the Macedonians from Bulgaria, 3. the Macedonians from Albania, and 4. the Macedonians in the entire Diaspora. We are all Macedonian because that is what we are. It is my greatest wish that the world, including Greece, recognizes us as nothing other than Macedonian. You can contact the author of this article at his e-mail at: [email protected]
dejan	interesno!! zvuci logicno.
Duhot na Vovata	Golema amalgama, ha ha ha ha....
ProMKD	Hey lazy ass, can't you read the forum rules?? NO BULGARIAN. ENGLISH OR MACEDONIAN POSTING ONLY. Where are the administrators? I know they are busy with all these bastards posting this shit...
anadolec	What dos mean the words bek, kibele, paris
mnik	no Bulgarian Fonts available, cant read your message, but I guess, I dont have time for it too. if you want to be readed, only English or Macedonian Fonts.... else[:D]
mnik	Key words: Macedonians; Greeks; Ethiopians; Mediterraneans; Berbers; Sudan; Turks; Egyptians; Sahel; Africa Acknowledgments: This work was supported in part by grants from the Spanish Ministry of Education (PM95-57, PM96-21 and PM99-23) and the Madrid Regional Government (06/70/97 and 8.3/14/98). We are grateful to Alberto Garcia for his help with art design work on the computer. Received 6 October, revised, accepted for publication 20 December 2000 Copyright c Munksgaard 2001 Tissue Antigens . ISSN 0001-2815 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127 Printed in Denmark . All rights reserved 118 A. Arnaiz-Villena HLA genes in Macedonians and the K. Dimitroski sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks A. Pacho J. Moscoso E. Go#180;mez-Casado C. Silvera-Redondo P. Varela M. Blagoevska V. Zdravkovska J. Mart#305;#180;nez-Laso Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the #8216;#8216;older#8217;#8217; Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the #8216;#8216;older#8217;#8217; Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as 0305, 0307, 0411, 0413, 0416, 0417, 0420, 1110, 1112, 1304 and 1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. The highly polymorphic HLA system has been validated as useful for distinguishing and/or relating populations (and individuals) in many research studies since the first International HLA Anthropology Workshop (Evian, 1973) and in all the subsequent seven International Workshops. HLA gene frequencies correlate with geographically related populations. The existence or absence of gene flow among neighbouring ethnic groups may be assessed with the study of HLA frequencies and the corresponding genetic distances (1, 2). Ancient Macedonians were among the peoples that lived between northern Greece (Thessaly) and Thrace in the Balkans and were considered by the classical Greeks as #8216;#8216;non-Greek barbarians#8217;#8217; that could not participate in the Greek Olympic Games (3). Hero- Authors#8217; affiliations: A. Arnaiz-Villena1, K. Dimitroski2, A. Pacho1, J. Moscoso1, E. Go#180;mez-Casado1, C. Silvera-Redondo1, P. Varela1, M. Blagoevska2, V. Zdravkovska2, J. Mart#305;#180;nez-Laso1 1Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain, 2Tissue Typing laboratory. Institute of Blood Transfusion, Skopje. Republic of Macedonia The contribution by A. Arnaiz-Villena and K. Dimitroski is equal and the order of authorship is arbitrary Correspondence to: Antonio Arnaiz-Villena Departamento de Inmunolog#305;#180;a y Biolog#305;#180;a Molecular H. 12 de Octubre Universidad Complutense Carretera Andaluc#305;#180;a 28041 Madrid Spain e-mail: aarnaiz/eucmax.sim.ucm.es. http://chopo.pntic.mec.es/ ¶biolmol Arnaiz-Villena et al : HLA genes in Macedonians dotus wrote that #8216;#8216;Macedonians#8217;#8217; were #8216;#8216;Dorians#8217;#8217; and were never admitted to the Greek community (4). They did not speak Greek but another language presently unknown and of which only proper names remain; nowadays, they speak a Slavic language (5). Macedonians fought against the Greeks between 357#8211;336 B.C. under King Philip II. They defeated the Greeks at the Battle of Chaironea (338 B.C.). The Macedonian empire extended from the Balkan Peninsula to the Himalayas and to North Africa during the reign of Philip#8217;s son, Alexander the Great (6). Thereafter, Macedonia was conquered by the Romans and has been disputed in more recent times by Serbs and/or Bulgars. Ottoman Turks controlled Macedonia between 1380#8211;1912 A.D., and it was integrated into Yugoslavia in 1946. In 1991, after the partition of Yugoslavia, a referendum gave Macedonia its independence. The present ethnic groups within the country are: 1) Macedonians: 1,279,000; 2) Albanians: 377,000; 3) Turks: 87,000; 4) Serbs: 44,000; and 5) others: 40,000. The northernmost region of Greece is also known as Macedonia and this is why Greece has opposed the independence of the country while it bears the same name (7). Furthermore, we have found that the Greeks did not cluster together with other Mediterranean populations, including both western (Iberians, Algerians, Berbers) and eastern (Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Egyptian, Turks-Anatolians) Mediterraneans (8#8211;10). The aim of the present work is to determine the relative contributions of Macedonians and Greeks to the present-day genetic pool of Mediterranean peoples. For these purpose, both HLA class I and class II DNA typings have been studied in Macedonians for the first time. The genetic relationship of Macedonians and Greeks to other Mediterraneans, including North Africans (Berbers from Agadir and El Jadida areas and Algerians from Algiers), Iberians (Spaniards, Basques and Portuguese) and Greeks (from Attica, Aegean and Cyprus) were calculated. In addition, sub-Saharan and other Africans were compared with all available Mediterranean groups in order to solve the question of the unique Greek HLA profile. Material and methods Population samples Samples from one hundred and seventy-two unrelated Macedonians in Skopje (Institute of Blood Transfusion, Tissue Typing Laboratory), the Republic of Macedonia capital, were used for HLA genotyping and phylogenetic calculations. All were Macedonian language speakers and their ancestors did not belong to a country minority group (detailed above). The origin of all other populations used for comparisons is given in Table 1. 119 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127 Populations used for the present work Identification numbers Region and population n1 References 1 Macedonians 172 Present study 2 Moroccans (El Jadida) 98 22 3 Berbers (Souss) 98 29 4 Moroccan Jews 94 30 5 Spaniards 176 9 6 Basques 80 9 7 Portuguese 228 15 8 French 179 16 9 Algerians (Algier) 102 8 10 Sardinians 91 16 11 Italians 284 16 12 Jews (Ashkenazi) 80 31 13 Jews (non-Ashkenazi) 80 31 14 Cretans 135 10 15 Greeks (Aegean) 85 2 16 Greeks (Attica) 96 2 17 Greeks (Cyprus) 101 2 18 Lebanese (NS)2 59 2 19 Lebanese (KZ)3 93 2 20 Iranians 100 32 21 Turks 228 Arnaiz-Villena et al. (unpublished. results) 22 Armenians 105 16 23 Egyptians (Siwa) 101 2 24 Oromo 83 2 25 Amhara 98 2 26 Fulani 38 2 27 Rimaibe 39 2 28 Mossi 42 2 29 San (Bushmen) 77 16 30 Senegalese 192 16 31 South-African-Blacks 86 16 1n5number of individuals analysed for each population; 2NS5Niha el Shouff (town); 3KZ5Kafar Zubian (town) Table 1 HLA genotyping, DNA sequencing and statistics Generic HLA class I (A and B) and high-resolution HLA class II (DRB1 and DQB1) genotyping was performed using a reverse dotblot technique with the Automated Innolipa system (Innogenetics N.V., Zwijndrecht, Belgium). HLA-A, -B, -DRB1, and -DQB1 allele DNA sequencing was only done when indirect DNA typing (reverse dot-blot) yielded ambiguous results (11). Statistical analysis was Arnaiz-Villena et al : HLA genes in Macedonians Table 2 HLA-A, -B, -DRB1, and -DQB1 allele frequencies in the Macedonian population Allele Allele Allele Alleles frequencies % Alleles frequencies % Alleles frequencies % HLA-A B58 0.9 HLA-DQB1 A01 13.7 B40(B60) 2.0 02 14.5 A02 25.6 B40(B61) 1.5 0203 0.9 A03 11.9 B15(B62) 1.5 0301 25.0 A11 7.6 B14(B65) 0.6 0302 6.4 A23 3.5 B78 0.3 03032 2.9 A24 16.3 HLA-DRB1 0304 0.3 A25 1.7 0101 5.2 0305 0.3 A26 6.7 0301 9.0 0402 1.5 A29 1.2 0401 1.2 0501 7.3 A30 1.7 0402 1.7 0502 17.2 A31 2.0 0403 3.2 05031 5.8 A32 3.2 0404 0.6 0601 2.9 A33 1.2 0405 0.3 0602 6.9 A68 3.8 0415 0.3 0603 5.8 0424 0.3 0604 1.7 HLA-B 0432 0.3 0606 0.3 B07 6.4 0701 6.4 0609 0.3 B08 6.7 0801 1.7 B13 1.5 0804 0.3 B14 0.3 0901 0.3 B15 0.3 1001 2.0 B18 16.6 1101 7.3 B27 4.1 1103 0.9 B35 14.8 1104 16.6 B37 2.0 1201 0.6 B38 5.2 1301 4.4 B39 1.7 1302 2.3 B41 1.2 1305 0.9 B44 7.8 1307 0.3 B45 0.3 1401 5.8 B49 1.5 1404 0.6 B50 0.6 1407 0.3 B51 14.8 1501 9.0 B52 2.3 1502 2.6 B53 0.3 1505 0.3 B56 0.3 1601 13.9 B55 2.6 1602 1.5 B57 2.0 Alleles DQB10201 and 0202 were all assigned as DQB102. Number in brackets indicates the serologic antigen most probably corresponding to the genetic allele obtained 120 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127 Arnaiz-Villena et al : HLA genes in Macedonians performed with Arlequin v1.1 software kindly provided by Excoffier and Slatkin (12). In summary, this program calculated HLAA, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies, Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium and the linkage disequilibrium between two alleles at two different loci. Linkage disequilibrium (D¿; also named LD, see ref. 13) and its level of significance (P) for 2À2 comparisons were determined using the formulae of Mattiuz and co-workers (14) and the 11th International Histocompatibility Workshop methodology (13). In addition, the most frequent complete haplotypes were deduced following a methodology used in the 11th International Histocompatibility Workshop: 1) the 2, 3, and 4 HLA loci haplotype frequencies (2, 15, 16); 2) the haplotypes previously described in other populations (2, 16); and 3) haplotypes which were assigned if they appeared in two or more individuals and the alternative haplotype was well defined. In order to compare allelic and haplotype HLA frequencies with other populations, the reference tables used were those of the 11th and 12th International HLA Workshops (2, 16; see also Table 1). Phylogenetic trees (dendrograms) were constructed with the allelic frequencies by applying the Neighbor-Joining (NJ) method (17) with the genetic distances between populations (DA, 18) and using DISPAN software containing the programs GNKDST and TREEVIEW (19, 20). A three-dimensional correspondence analysis and its bidimensional representation was carried out using the VISTA v5.02 computer program (21, http:/forrest.psych.unc. edu). Correspondence analysis comprises a geometric technique that may be used for displaying a global view of the relationships among populations according to HLA (or other) allele frequencies. This methodology is based on the allelic frequency variance among populations (similarly to the classical principal components methodology) and on the display of a statistical projection of the differences. Results Characteristic HLA allele frequencies of the Macedonian population compared to other Mediterraneans The expected and observed allele frequencies for HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 loci do not significantly differ and the population sample is in Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. Table 2 shows the HLA allele frequencies found in the Macedonian population. Fourteen different HLA-A and twenty-eight different HLA-B alleles were observed in the Macedonian population. Six HLA-A alleles and seven HLA-B alleles had frequencies higher than 5% (A01, A02, A03, A11, A24, A26, B07, B08, B18, B35, B38, B44 and B51) and these are characteristic of Mediterranean populations (8#8211;10, 22). 121 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127 Genetic distances between populations (DA) between Macedonians and other populations (À102) obtained by using HLA-DRB1 allele frequencies (see Table 1 for populations identification) HLA-DRB1 (DA) Cretans 8.38 Italians 10.45 French 14.41 Sardinians 17.66 Spaniards 17.76 Moroccan Jews 17.78 Non-Ashkenazi Jews 17.83 Lebanese (KZ) 20.98 Ashkenazi Jews 21.87 Algerians (Algiers) 22.37 Lebanese (NS) 23.29 Greeks (Attica) 23.69 Moroccans 25.47 Berbers (Souss) 28.50 Spanish-Basques 30.50 Greeks (Cyprus) 33.28 Greeks (Aegean) 37.52 South African Negroids 38.22 Senegalese 41.76 Oromo 43.26 Amhara 51.74 Mossi 53.46 Rimaibe 55.95 San (Bushmen) 57.78 Fulani 61.01 Table 3 With regard to the HLA class II alleles, thirty-one different DRB1 alleles were found and only six had frequencies higher than 5%; DQ allele frequencies reflect the DRB1 locus allele distribution due to the strong linkage disequilibrium between these two loci. Two types of analyses were carried out to compare Macedonian HLA frequencies with other Mediterranean population frequencies: 1) with DRB1 data, which is probably a more informative and discriminating methodology; and 2) with generic (low-resolution) DR-DQ data. These two types of analysis were both performed because some of the populations used for comparison lacked HLA-A and -B data [Berbers (from Souss, Agadir area, Morocco), Jews (Ashkenazi), Jews (Morocco), Jews (non-Ashkenazi), Lebanese (NS and KZ), see Table 1], or high resolution HLA-DQ data [(Greeks (Attica), Greeks (Cyprus), Greeks (Attica-Aegean), see Table 1]], or only generic HLA-DR and Arnaiz-Villena et al : HLA genes in Macedonians Fig. 1. Neighbor-Joining dendrogram showing relatedness between Macedonians and other populations. Genetic distances between populations (DA) were calculated by using HLA-DRB1 (high-resolution). Data from other populations were from references detailed in Table 1. Bootstrap values from 1000 replicates are shown. -DQ datawere available [Portuguese, Turks, Iranians, Armenians and Egyptians, see Table 1]. These partially HLA-typed populations should have been ignored, but they could be analyzed conjointly taking into account only either DRB1 or generic DR and DQ frequencies (Tables 3, 6, Figs 1#8211;3). Analyses using DRB1and DQB1 conjointly were made but are not shown because only a few populations could be used and the results are concordant with the DRB1 analysis. Finally, it should be pointed out that class I generic typing tends to homogenize the comparisons based on DRB1 high-resolution typing (see ref. 22); one class I allele obtained by generic DNA typing may contain several class I alleles, while this is not the case for most DRB1 alleles. Fig. 1 depicts an HLA class II (DRB1) neighbor-joining tree. Populations are grouped into three main branches with high bootstrap values: the first one groups both eastern (including Macedonians, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese) and western Mediterraneans (Europeans and North Africans; Sardinians are also included in the first group). The second branch is formed by African Negroid popula- 122 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127 tions and the third one includes Greek and sub-Saharan populations. This distribution is also confirmed in the correspondence analysis (Fig. 2): the three groups are clearly delimited and a west to east Mediterranean gradient is shown. The Macedonian population shows the closest genetic distance with Cretans (Table 3) and no discontinuity is observed with eastern and western Mediterraneans reflecting the genetic similarity among these populations. It is evidenced that Cretans-Greeks distance is high. These results are con- firmed using DR and DQ generic typings (see Fig. 3 and data not shown) which were used in order to include other Mediterranean populations (Iranians, Armenians, Egyptians and Turks, see Table 1). A DR-DQ neighbour-joining tree (data not shown) maintains the West to East Mediterranean gradient and also the group formed by Greeks and sub-Saharan populations. Turks (old Anatolians), Kurds, Iranians and Armenians have been shown specifically to cluster with the eastern Mediterranean groups (Arnaiz-Villena et al., submitted). On the other hand, genetic distances obtained by using DR-DQ generic typing allele frequencies (data not shown) show that Iranians (1.10À10»2) and Cretans (1.54À10»2) are the two populations closest to the Macedonians followed by the other Mediterranean populations. A discontinuity is found between Berbers (Souss) and Greeks (Attica) (9.59À10»2 vs. 12.42À10»2) showing that the latter have a distant relationship with Mediterran- Most frequent HLA-A, -B, -DRB1, and -DQB1 extended haplotypes in the Macedonian population and their possible origin Haplotypes HF (%) Possible origin A01-B08-DRB10301-DQB102a 4.9 Pan-European A02-B18-DRB11104-DQB10301b 4.1 Mediterranean A02-B51-DRB11601-DQB10502c 3.2 Macedonian A03-B18-DRB11601-DQB10502d 2.6 Macedonian A01-B52-DRB11502-DQB10601e 1.7 North African-Mediterranean A24-B18-DRB11104-DQB10301f 1.5 Central-South-Eurasian A03-B18-DRB11104-DQB10301g 1.5 Macedonian-Italian A25-B18-DRB11501-DQB10602h 1.2 Iberian-Macedonian A26-B38-DRB10402-DQB10302i 1.2 Macedonian-Turkish-Jewish HF: Haplotype frequency. aAlso found in Basques (2.4%), Spaniards (3.4%), Britons (2.9%), Danes (3.4%), Cretans (1.1%), Germans (4.8%), Austrians (5.3%) and Yugoslavs (7.7%) (2, 9, 10, 15, 16). bThis haplotype has been found in Albanians (3.9%), Italians (2.1%), Yugoslavs (3.5%), Turks (1.1%), Spaniards (1.1%) and Greeks (4.0%) (2, 16 and our own unpublished results). cand dPresent only in Macedonians. ePartially (B52-DRB11502-DQB10601) found in Moroccans (1.5%), Cretans (2.5%), Spaniards (1.1%) and Italians (0.8%) (2, 16, 22). fHaplotype found in Armenians (2.1%) and Italians (0.7%) (2, 16). gOnly found in Italians (0.8%) (2, 16). hHaplotype found only in Iberians, Portuguese (1.5%) and Spaniards (0.3%) (15). iPresent in Turks (0.9%) and in Jews (our own unpublished results and 33). Other low frequency haplotypes present in Macedonians are also shared with central Europeans (A03-B07-DRB11501-DQB10602, HF: 0.8; A02-B13- DRB10701-DQB102, HF: 0.8; A02-B44-DRB10701-DQB102, HF: 0.6), western Europeans (A02-B07-DRB11501-DQB10602, HF: 0.6), north Africans (A02-B07-DRB11001- DQB10501, HF: 0.6) and Mediterranean-Europeans (A23-B44-DRB10701-DQB102, HF: 0.6) (2, 8#8211;10, 16 and our own unpublished results) Table 4 Arnaiz-Villena et al : HLA genes in Macedonians Fig. 2. Correspondence analysis showing a global view of the re- dimensions (bidimensional representation). HLA-DRB1 allele frelationship between Mediterraneans and sub-Saharan and Black quencies data. African populations according to HLA allele frequencies in three Fig. 3. Correspondence analysis showing a global view of the re- Blacks (grey) according to HLA allele frequencies in three dimenlationship among West Mediterraneans (green), East Mediterran- sions (bidimensional representation). HLA-DR and DQ (low-resolution) eans (orange), Greeks and sub-Saharan populations (red) and allele frequencies data. 123 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127 Arnaiz-Villena et al : HLA genes in Macedonians Common HLA-DRB1 alleles between Greeks and sub-Saharan Africans Allele Greeks AF (%) Ethiopia AF (%) Sudan AF (%) West Africans AF (%) DRB1 Attica Attica/Aegean Cyprus Amhara Oromo Nuba Rimaibe Fulani Mossi 0305a 2.5 0.8 0.2 0.8 0307b 2.2 3.2 2.1 1.3 0.8 0.2 0.8 0411c 0.4 0.6 0413d 0.5 0.6 0.9 0.6 0.6 0416e 0.6 0.9 0.6 0.6 0417f 0.4 1.5 0.6 0420g 0.1 0.4 0.6 0.6 0.6 1110h 2.9 1.9 0.2 0.3 1112i 2.9 1.9 0.4 0.2 2.7 0.3 1304j 0.9 1.1 1.4 0.7 1310k 0.2 1.3 0.8 0.2 0.8 AF: Allele frequency. Some of these HLA-DRB1 alleles are also present in other populations: aNot found in other populations. bPresent in Hungarians (0.4%). cFound in Amerindians and some Pacific peoples. dNot found in other populations. eFound in Hungarians (1.2%). fPresent in Hva Island (Croatia, 0.3%) and Amerindian Yukpa (2.3%). gFound in Lebanese 0.1%. hFound in Hva Island (Croatia, 0.9%) and Hungarians (2.6%). iAlso found in Lebanese (2.3%) and Hungarians (2.6%). jNot found in other populations. kAlso present in Hva Island (Croatia, 1.0%) (2, 23) Table 5 ean populations as previously described (10, 22) and cluster together with the sub-Saharan populations. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1, and -DQB1 linkage disequilibria in Macedonians Extended HLA haplotypes were determined in Macedonians and compared with those previously reported in other populations (Table 4). HLA-A-B and DRB1-DQB1* two-loci linkage disequilibrium data (not shown) show that the most frequent combinations are characteristic of European and Mediterranean (western and eastern) populations (B18-DRB11104, Haplotype Frequency (HF): 9.0; A02-B18, HF: 8.1; A01-B08, HF: 5.5; B08-DRB10301, HF: 5.2; A24-B35, HF: 4.9 and B07-DRB11501, HF: 4.1). The HLA-AB- DR-DQ extended haplotypes found in the Macedonian population (Table 4) reflect common characteristics with the other #8216;#8216;older#8217;#8217; Mediterranean background (see footnote to Table 4). These haplotype results are concordant with those obtained by the allele frequency analyses (genetic distances, neighbor-joining trees and correspondence, see above). Common alleles of Greeks with sub-Saharan Africans In order to study the possible origin of the Greeks who remain outliers among Mediterraneans (10, 22), specific DRB1 alleles present in Greeks and not present in the other Mediterranean populations were searched in other geographically not very distant popu- 124 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127 lations. Our own data, the 11th and 12th International Histocompatibility Workshops reference panels (2, 16, 23) and other previously described data were used (see Table 1). Table 5 shows the presence of these Greek alleles mainly in sub-Saharan populations from Ethiopia (Amhara, Oromo), Sudan (Nuba) and West Africa (Rimaibe, Fulani, Mossi). Some of these alleles are sporadically present in other populations without any relationships among them (see footnote to Table 5). It may be deduced from these data that sub-Saharans and Greeks share quasi-specific HLA-DRB1 alleles. The neighbor-joining tree (Fig. 1) and the correspondence analyses (Figs 2 and 3) confirm this Greek/sub-Saharan relatedness. The HLA-DRB1 genetic distances between Greeks and other Mediterraneans are shown in Table 6 and also support a sub-Saharan/Greek relatedness; genetic distances with HLA-DR and -DQ generic typings (not shown) give essentially the same results. No relationship of Greeks is seen with the Senegalese and South African Blacks (Bantu and people coming from the Guinea Gulf after the Bantu expansion, respectively (24)), nor with the present day Bushmen (24). Two different types of problem regarding the obtained data are discarded: 1) mistakes in the HLA typings and 2) mistakes in the assignation of these specific alleles (DRB10417, 1112, etc, see Table 5). These problems are not likely to exist in the present work because; 1) HLA typings have been made by genetic technologies in three different Greek populations (2, 23) and 2) similar results are obtained when generic typing is used (DR-DQ analysis in Fig. 3; see also ref. 22). Arnaiz-Villena et al : HLA genes in Macedonians Table 6 Genetic distances (DA) between the different groups of Greeks and other populations (À102) obtained by using HLA-DRB1 allele frequencies (see Table 1 for identification of populations) HLA-DRB1 (DA) From Greeks (Attica) to From Greeks (Cyprus) to From Greeks (Aegean) to Greeks (Aegean) 7.35 Greeks (Aegean) 5.62 Greeks (Cyprus) 5.62 Greeks (Cyprus) 10.01 Greeks (Attica) 10.01 Greeks (Attica) 7.35 Mossi 16.00 Mossi 13.68 Mossi 10.92 Oromo 17.11 Rimaibe 17.48 Rimaibe 12.61 Rimaibe 20.69 Oromo 18.77 Oromo 19.85 French 20.87 Fulani 20.68 Fulani 20.43 Amhara 21.43 Amhara 24.10 Amhara 21.08 Moroccans 21.86 Non-Ashkenazi Jews 28.78 French 31.76 Non-Ashkenazi Jews 23.64 French 31.74 Libanese-NS 33.49 Macedonians 23.69 Libanese-NS 32.08 Non-Ashkenazi Jews 34.07 Fulani 23.85 Macedonians 33.82 Moroccans 35.10 Italians 26.28 Berbers (Souss) 34.43 Berbers (Souss) 37.02 Berbers (Souss) 26.53 Libanese-KZ 35.97 Macedonians 37.52 Cretans 27.08 Moroccan Jews 36.46 Italians 41.49 Moroccan Jews 27.56 Moroccans 36.58 Cretans 41.59 Libanese-NS 30.96 Cretans 37.45 Moroccan Jews 42.27 Libanese-KZ 31.13 Italians 41.26 Senegalese 44.34 Spaniards 33.61 Senegalese 43.23 Libanese-KZ 45.12 Algerians 33.68 Spaniards 45.25 Spaniards 51.17 Spanish-Basques 37.10 Sardinians 47.75 Algerians 51.71 Sardinians 37.87 Algerians 49.44 South African Negroids 53.48 Senegalese 38.94 Ashkenazi Jews 50.93 Sardinians 53.68 Ashkenazi Jews 40.10 South African Negroids 58.21 Ashkenazi Jews 55.33 South African Negroids 45.37 Spanish-Basques 59.57 Spanish-Basques 56.95 San (Bushmen) 62.90 San (Bushmen) 70.04 San (Bushmen) 66.68 Discussion Macedonians Our results show that Macedonians are related to other Mediterraneans and do not show a close relationship with Greeks; however they do with Cretans (Tables 3, 4, Figs 1#8211;3). This supports the theory that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the Mycaenian Greeks (10) about 2000 B.C. Other possible explanation is that they might have shared a genetic background with the Greeks before an hypothetical admixture between Greeks and sub- Saharans might have occurred. The cultural, historical and genetic identity of Macedonians is established according to our results. However, 19th century historians focused all the culture in Greece 125 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127 ignoring all the other Mediterranean cultures present in the area long before the classical Greek one (25). Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed (Tables 5, 6 and Figs 1#8211;3) was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burkina- Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles (Table 5) is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek genetic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred at an uncertain but ancient time. The origin of the West African Black ethnic groups (Fulani, MosArnaiz- Villena et al : HLA genes in Macedonians Fig. 4. Map showing the location of the populations tested in the present work. References 1. 4. 9. Imanishi T, Wakisaka A, Gojorobi T. Herodotus. History. Madrid: Gredos, 1989. Mart#305;#180;nez-Laso J, De Juan D, Mart#305;#180;nez- Genetic relationships among various 5. Campbell GL. Compendium of the world#8217;s Quiles N, Go#180;mez-Casado E, Cuadrado E, human populations indicated by MHC languages. New York: Routledge, 1998. Arnaiz-Villena A. The contribution of the polymorphisms. In: Tsuji K, Aizawa M, 6. Morkott R. Historical Atlas of ancient HLA-A, -B, -C and -DR, -DQ DNA typing Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Greece. London: Penguin Books, 1996. to the study of the origins of Spaniards and Oxford University Press, 1992: 627#8211;32. 7. Sellier A, Sellier J. Atlas de los pueblos de Basques. Tissue Antigens 1995: 45: 237#8211; 2. Europa Central. Madrid: Acento-La Clayton J, Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype 45. frequencies for HLA loci in various ethnic Deconverte, 1995. 10. Arnaiz-Villena A, Iliakis P, Gonza#180;lezgroups. In: Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity 8. Arnaiz-Villena A, Benmamar D, A#180; lvarez M Hevilla M et al. The origin of Cretan of HLA. Funcional and medical et al. HLA allele and haplotype frequencies population as determined by implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665#8211; in Algerians. Relatedness to Spaniards and characterization of HLA alleles. Tissue 820. Basques. Hum Immunol 1995: 43: 259#8211;68. Antigens 1999: 53: 213#8211;26. 3. Villar F. Los indoeuropeos y los or#305;#180;genes de Europa. Madrid: Gredos, 1996. 126 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127 si and Rimaibe sampled in Burkina-Fasso) is probably Ethiopian (26, 27) (Fig. 4). The Fulani are semi-nomadic hunters and gatherers and one of the few people in the area to use cows#8217; milk and its byproducts to feed themselves and to trade; their facial parameters show a Caucasian admixture. The Rimaibe Blacks have been slaves belonging to the Fulani and have frequently mixed with them (27). The Nuba people are now widespread all over Sudan, but are descendants of the ancient Nubians that ruled Egypt between 8th#8211;7th centuries B.C. (28) and later established their kingdom at Meroe, North Khartoum. Two kinds of Nubians were described in ancient times: Reds and Blacks, probably reflecting the degree of Caucasian admixture. Both the Oromo and Amharic peoples live in the Ethiopian mountains (27). They obviously have in common a genetic background with the west-African groups mentioned above. Linguistic, social, traditional and historical evidence supports an east-to-west migration of peoples through the Sahel (southern Sahara strip), although this is still debated (26, 27). Thus, it is hypothesized that there could have been a migration from southern Sahara which mixed with ancient Greeks to give rise to a part of the present day Greek genetic background. The admixture must have occurred in the Aegean Islands and Athens area at least (Figs 1 and 2). The reason why this admixture is not seen in Crete is unclear but may be related to the influential and strong Minoan empire which hindered foreigners establishment (10). Also, the time when admixture occurred could be after the overthrown of some of the Negroid Egyptian dynasties (Nubian or from other periods) or after undetermined natural catastrophes (i.e.: dryness). Indeed, ancient Greeks believed that their religion and culture came from Egypt (4, 25). Arnaiz-Villena et al : HLA genes in Macedonians 11. 17. 25. Arnaiz-Villena A, Timo#180;n M, Corell A, Saitou N, Nei M. The neighbor-joining Bernal M. Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Pe#180;rez-Aciego P, Mart#305;#180;n-Villa JM, Regueiro method: a new method for reconstructing roots of classical civilization. London: Free JR. Primary immunodeficiency caused by phylogenetic trees. Mol Biol Evol 1987: 4: Association Books, New Brunswick, Rutger mutations in the gene encoding the CD3-g 406#8211;25. University Press, 1987. subunit of the T-lymphocyte receptor. 18. Nei M. Genetic distances between 26. McEvedy C. The Penguin atlas of African N Engl J Med 1992: 327: 529#8211;33. populations. Am Nat 1972: 106: 283. history. London: Penguin Books Ltd, 1980. 12. 19. 27. Excoffier L, Slatkin M. Maximum- Nei M. Analysis of gene diversity in Gonem A. The encyclopedia of the peoples likelihood estimation of molecular subdivided populations. Proc Natl Acad Sci of the world. Jesuralem: Jesuralem haplotype frequencies in a diploid U S A 1973: 70: 3321#8211;3. Publishing House Ltd., 1996: 143#8211;5. population. Mol Biol Evol 1995: 12: 921#8211;7. 20. Nei M, Tajima F, Tateno Y. Accuracy of 28. Manley B. Historical Atlas of ancient Egypt. 13. estimated phylogenetic trees from Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga London: Penguin Books, 1996. K, Gojorobi T. Estimation of allele and molecular data II. Gene frequency data. 29. Izaabel H, Garchon HJ, Caillat-Zucman S et haplotype frequencies for HLA and J Mol Evol 1983: 19: 153#8211;70. al. HLA class II DNA polymorphism in a complement loci. In: Tsuji K, Aizawa M, 21. Young FW, Bann CM. A Visual Statistics Moroccan population from the Souss, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991 Vol I. Oxford: system. In: Stine RA, Fox J, eds. Statistical Agadir area. Tissue Antigens 1998: 51: 106#8211; Oxford University Press, 1992: 76#8211;9. computing environments for social 10. 14. researchers. New York: Sage Publications, Mattiuz PL, Ihde D, Piazza A, Ceppelini R, 30. Roitberg-Tambur A, Witt CS, Friedmann A Wodmer WF. New approaches to the 1996: 207#8211;36. et al. Comparative analysis of HLA population genetics and segregation 22. Gomez-Casado E, del Moral P, Martinez- polymorphism at the serologic and analysis of the HLA system. Laso J et al. HLA genes in Arabic- molecular level in Moroccan and Ashkenazi Histocompatibility testing 1970. speaking Moroccans: close relatedness to Jews. Tissue Antigens 1995: 46: 104#8211;10. Copenhagen: Munksgaard, 1970: 193#8211;206. Berbers and Iberians. Tissue Antigens 31. Mart#305;#180;nez-Laso J, Gazit E, Go#180;mez-Casado E 15. 2000: 55: 239#8211;49. Arnaiz-Villena A, Mart#305;#180;nez-Laso J, Go#180;mez- et al. HLA DR and DQ polymorphism in Casado E et al. Relatedness among Basques, 23. Hammond MG, du Toit ED, Sanchez-Mazas Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews: Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerian A et al. HLA in sub-Saharan Africa: 12th comparison with other Mediterraneans. studied by HLA allelic frequencies and International Histocompatibility Workshop Tissue Antigens 1996: 47: 63#8211;71. haplotypes. Immunogenetics 1997: 47: 37#8211; SSAF report. In: Charron D, ed. Genetic 32. Mehra NK, Rajalingam R, Kanga U et al. 43. diversity of HLA. Functional and medical Genetic diversity of HLA in the 16. implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 345#8211; Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga populations of India, Sri Lanka and Iran. K, Gojobori T. Allele and haplotype 52. In: Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity of frequencies for HLA and complement loci 24. Arnaiz-Villena A, Martinez-Laso J, Alonso- HLA. Funcional and medical implications. in various ethnic groups. In: Tsuji K, Garcia A. Iberia: Population genetics, Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 314#8211;20. Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol Anthropology, and linguistics. Hum Biol 33. Brautbar C, Friedman A, Battat R et al. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 1999: 71: 725#8211;43. HLA in Israeli Jews, Moroccans and 1065#8211;220. Algerians. In: Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 656#8211;8. 127 Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118#8211;127
mnik	To get the above article in nice PDF file with nice pictures in it you have to download it from http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf [:D][:D][:D]
mnik	Gatanka(Puzzle)! The world seems puzzling since Republic of Macedonia became independent. What puzzles me the most of the time, is the Bulgarian Claim that in Macedonia lives only Bulgarians. I was interested about fundamentals of this claim. First of all, this claim must have an scientific background: So far as known the Macedonians were inhabitants on the Balkan longer than the Bulgarians on this region. This claim can be made on basis of the recent made Genetic researches from the Spain Scientists E. Gomez-Casado, A. Arnaiz-Villena and others on the Madrid University. In their researches they proved that: Today Macedonians are of the so called older Mediterranean substratum, which leads to the conclusion that, they were on the Balkans from ancient time. They found that today Macedonian population shows the closest genetic distance with Cretans and no discontinuity is observed with eastern and western Mediterraneans reflecting the genetic similarity among these populations. They also found that Greeks are of the so called newer Mediterranean substratum, and share large genetic pool with the sub-Saharan people, which leads to the conclusion that the Greek claim that ancient Macedonians were Greeks does not have any foundations. This is also the claim of almost all of the modern Historians, which agree that Ancient Authors refer the ancient Macedonians as non Greek (barbarians). At other hand genetic researches proved, that Bulgarians have big genetic influence from Asian origin(Tatter). So far the puzzling of the origin of the today Macedonians is answered, thanks to the Genetic science. So Question is asked: the so called today Macedonian #8220;Slavs#8221; were there, or the Macedonian have adopted the #8220;Slav#8221; language. This is still not cleared case, but for us modern Macedonians, is fact that our language is gone through an evolution as any living language. With all do respect for all our #8220;Slav#8221; brothers, at my opinion, in the so called #8220;Slav#8221; languages many words have their roots in the Macedonian, are used exactly as in Macedonian but in different Slav speaking brunches, or have no related roots in those languages. This can be showed on the following Example: In present Macedonian there are four types of words that have the meaning of work, but are used in different contexts: raboti, pravi, chine, deluva. #8220;Jas rabotam#8221; means I work, #8220;shto pravish#8221; what do you do, #8220;sho ke chinesh#8221; means what are you going to do, or work, #8220;deluva li apcheto#8221; means do the pill has an effect, so does the pill works. In any case the meaning is #8220;is it works, or does it works#8221; so work. Raboti and dela are present words used in Russian language, have same meaning work but in different occasion, and chinichi and pravichi are present words in Polish, with the same meaning work. Russian is known as Eastern #8220;Slav#8221; group, and Polish is known as West #8220;Slav#8221; group. There are other examples of words that are present in today Macedonian and are present in other branches of Slav languages. It is also an point of interest that the Russian have no real meaning of their name, and their name in middle age Macedonian refer to the word #8220;Russ#8221; meaning blond. The polish people use the same word #8220;Reklama#8221; meaning advertising as today Macedonian, but they can not explain which root this word has, namely #8220;rekla#8221; meaning tell, since the old way of advertising was the verbal one. All this can lead to conclusion that the so called #8220;Slav#8221; languages spread from the Balkan from the so called South branch to West and East. At this point there is a very hot discussion about the Veneti, which bases on the Rock Art found at present day Macedonian teritory and all over the Balkan and Europe. The Slovenian linguist have exited the west scientific attention after successful plausible translating of Rock Art using an Slavonik and Slovenian language. So today Macedonian language can be considered as descendant of very old language, which assembles very old roots of diverse words. So back to the Bulgarian claim that in Macedonia are only Bulgarians. Some History says that the name Bulgarian is related to the Turk-Tatter nomad Folks that came on horses even to the Balkans. They came there at second half of 7-th century, have grounded the first Bulgarian Empire with subjecting the #8220;Slavs#8221; in Trace and Moesia. Their first Han was called Asparuh. Today Bulgarians are not gladly reminded on the origin of their name and first statesman. They would do anything to prove the people in Europe to believe that Bulgarian were always there, as I have heard lately, they claim that they were even on the walls of Troy. But that is another story. So since the pro-Bulgarians were Tatters they came as nomads, one can say that they were mostly man, warriors, conquerors. With the time they married the local woman, and the pro-Bulgarian language was only kind of #8220;Royal language#8221;, and with the time it disappeared. This is no wonder, we say even today, my mother tough, not fathers. And now comes the interesting linguistic part, where one can see the deep impact of such traumatic changes, as at the Bulgarian people. The Macedonian refer to it People with the word #8220;Narod#8221;, comes from #8220;Rod#8221; meaning birth origin, or birth. In present day #8220;Slav#8221; languages there is the word #8220;Horda#8221; that refer to conquerors on horses, that occupies someone land. In other Indo-European languages the same word Horde means an mass. The Bulgarians use the word #8220;Hora#8221; to refer their Folk, and it#8217;s origin is in the word #8220;Horda#8221;. All nations use short cuts for different words, some Macedonians say #8220;Orda#8221; instead of #8220;Horda#8221;, so Bulgarians say #8220;Hora#8221;. And #8220;Hora#8221; means Folk in Bulgarian. This indicates only one, the Bulgarian #8220;Slav#8221; Part knew what is the origin of the state Bulgaria. This occupation was hard for them, so hard, that with the time they started to call them Hora. No other #8220;Slav#8221; people uses this word to indicate it#8217;s People, only Bulgarians. I think no more explanation here is needed. And this, at my opinion, is the linguistic answer of why the Macedonian were never Bulgarians. The Macedonians were never Hora, Horda, or Oda. We never mixed with any Horda, Orda, or Hora, no Tatter. We didn#8217;t came there, we were there. So my Gatanka (puzzle) is partial answered- not only scientific, but linguistic too! But why do the Bulgarians make such claims on the Macedonia and Macedonians, and why do they have invested so much time in all the propaganda, more, why did they subjected the Macedonian Hero#8217;s ? When we go through the History of Macedonia, one can see that Macedonia was first time subjected under Roman rule, after that came diverse rulers over Macedonia, among them are also the Bulgarians. But to answer this Question we don#8217;t have to go so far in the History. Late 19-th and early 20-th Century the most critical time under the Ottoman Empire is enough. All Balkan people were subjects of the Ottoman Empire for over 500 years. Many people died fighting for freedom, between them were the Macedonians too. But the fortune was not on the side of Macedonia. At the first Berlin Congress Bulgaria became Autonomy, and it was included only the territory of Moesien and Sandzak Sofia, of course without Macedonia. So this was seen as Bulgaria at that time. 1885 was very Important for the new Bulgarian State, the annexation of East Rumania. At this occasion Dr. Busch said that Alexander(Bulgarian King) was encouraged from the success of annexation of East Rumania, so he planed to annex Macedonia too. In year 1897 an Interview from Bulgarian Minister President Dragan Zankov was published in Pester Lloyd, in which he said that #8220;Bulgaria has to be thankful to Russia for it#8217;s existence, but in no case has to scarify it#8217;s ambition for Greater Bulgaria, which at present does not exactly agree with the Russian plan for Bulgaria .#8221; This refer exactly to the aspiration for Macedonia, and the Russian do not agree with that. But Macedonian goal was independence for it self, so they grounded 1893 the Party MRO in Solun, and 1896 the same party was named VMRO(IMRO, Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization ), to be exactly distinguished it self from the one, in this year in Sofia grounded Bulgarian MRO party. The Bulgarian MRO had for it#8217;s goal to use the so called dialectical equalities to present to the public that the Macedonian were Bulgarian. As one can see at this time, Macedonia was overrun from Propaganda from all it#8217;s neighbors, which wanted to prepare the Macedonian people for that what has to happen next, division of Macedonia. But Bulgarians had to wash their face before their future coalition Neighbors. So, meanwhile the new Bulgarian King Ferdinand, paid an visit to the Montenegrin King Nikola in Cetinje, to speak of and optional coalition for their Countries against Ottomans. The Bulgarian King was accompanied from the Bulgarian Ambassador in Serbia, Georgiev, who trying to give a glitter to his King had to answer very unpleasant Questions to the Count Schwerin, saying that #8220;the recent attacks on Serbian Teachers in Macedonia were made from people that say only that they are Bulgarians, but they are not.#8221; So this people couldn#8217;t be Serbian, and if they were Greeks than, the Ambassador wouldn#8217;t hesitated to name them by National name, what#8217;s left is that this were the Macedonians from VMRO, who at that time were active in Macedonia. So Macedonian under cover!!! Clever!!! Propaganda is very sharp sword with two sides, and there was Propaganda from every side at that time! The same Propaganda didn#8217;t stop even after the Balkan War as the following shows. At one (1913)occasion a German Ambassador in Serbia over handed the Serbian dissatisfaction letter about the Bulgarian Propaganda in Macedonia to Berlin, in which stands: #8221;the on going brutal Bulgarian Propaganda in our occupatied territory is not to be tolerated. Under this falls also the opening of Banks and schools all over the Serb occupied territory such as Monastir and Prilep, sending of Komitadshis for political oppressing of the local Population after the Parole #8216;if you are not willing, than you will be forced#8217; #8221; Is that the way how somebody becomes a Bulgarian? Forced to it!? And still how comes that today Bulgarian claim that VMRO is Bulgarian Party, and the Hero#8217;s such as Goce Delchev and Dame Gruev were Bulgarians? VMRO under leadership of Goce Delchev and Dame Gruev organized the Illinden Uprising (and after the Blakan wars 1918 VMRO fought for Macedonian departure from Yugoslavian Kingdom). All this was known to the Bulgarians, that#8217;s why they were giving their best to propagate and force Macedonians, but that was not all. They have grounded the #8220;Macedonian Committee #8221; known as VMOK, which betrayed many Macedonian Revolutionary. For this occasion J. de Jong said that #8220;VMOK was grounded mostly of Bulgarian military officers, and Macedonian VMRO was consisted mainly of teachers#8221;. The fundamentals of the both Organizations of which they consisted showed the preliminary aims of their own existence: Macedonians were teachers and wanted to educate and make long term progress, Bulgarians at other hand were military officers and had an aim to sabotage the Macedonians. And Goce Delchev was a teacher! So all this doesn#8217;t gives them right to assimilate the Macedonian VMRO and the Macedonian Hero#8217;s. But they did, because they needed this for their Propaganda. And if Bulgarian, Greek and Serb claims upon Macedonia and the Macedonians were true, the question is allowed: Why did they divided Macedonia between them self? Why didn#8217;t any of them fought for their own people to free it from the Ottoman slavery, as they claimed, and unify it to their main land, not to share it with the other neighbors? And the second world war: I ask myself, why every body keep quite about the world war two? Bulgaria, in alliance with Nazi have run over the rest of Macedonia under Greek and Serb rule. Today Bulgarian claim that they came as liberators, not as occupator. I ask you only one question? If this is true, why the Macedonian under Serbia and Greece fought against them? Today Bulgarian claim that Macedonian were overwhelmed, and welcomed them. But is this true? There are still Macedonian that can tell you the story about how welcome were the Bulgarians. They saw only another occupator in them, resisted them with any mean, and Bulgarians have persecuted everyone that did not said #8220;I#8217;m Bulgarian#8221;, the same tactic which was described from the Serbian above. Such a brother love!!! And this happened not only in Vardar Macedonia but in Egei Macedonia too. All this illustrates only one: that the goal of Macedonians at all times was independence, and the Bulgarian claims on the VMRO and all of the Macedonian Hero#8217;s has two purposes: 1. They used this Propaganda to justify their goals in front of home and foreign public, that they have natural right on Macedonian land. 2. Colonial Era is over and Bulgaria(Greece too) still didn#8217;t gave up the colony, Pirin Macedonia. And since today all this becomes unimportant in the shadow of European Union , they still hold this kind of propaganda, because if they admit that Macedonian Nationality really exist, they will find them self as victims of their own Propaganda and lies and have to give up Pirin Macedonia, so the easiest way is to keep this lie on. But the faith is cruel. As one says in Macedonia: with your own stone you will hit your own head. Yes faith is cruel, it was to us Macedonians, and we suffered enough. But European Union is upon to unfold, and the borders will disappear. What happens next is unpredictable for the Bulgarians. No borders, and there are still Macedonians !!! Scary Idea, and at my opinion this scares the Greeks much more. But that#8217;s another story! I think, with all above, the puzzle is done! Do you think so? Referenzen: Pub-Med: Authors' affiliations: A. Arnaiz-Villena, K. Dimitroski, A. Pacho, J. Moscoso, E. Gómez-Casado, C. Silvera-Redondo, P. Varela, M. Blagoevska, V. Zdravkovska, J. Martínez-Laso. Article : HLA Macedonian sub-Saharan in Greeks The Macedonian Knot, Hans-Lothar Steppan Pages:95,344.
mnik	quote: Originally posted by BMPO_DPMHE Tata(tatko)e galeno ot BASHTA, koeto idva od DREVNo bugarskata duma BAHTIAR, koja e od sanskritski proizhod i znaci duhoven bashta, vodach, rodonachalnik. Toa dokazuva deka site makedonci sa bugari oti OTECOT im e bugarski i sboruvat vo najmiloto si na bugarski. Ili site sa kopeleta - deca na koi otecot im se ne znae koj e?... Pomislete si! With such a dick head like you BMRO, have no interest any more to talk about anything, not because you have right, but because one can see that you dont have intelectual power to grasp simple things. see the article above, what the genes say to you, think about the charts that date before and after Christ, and tell me where you find Bulbaria, and than come and tell me that Tatko is short form from Bashta!!!! where in the word Bashta you find the word Tato!! do you refer to the "Ta" in the word???. than please explain me what the "Bash" stands for??? Bash is short form for what??? and "ta" is what Father??? the whole word tato can be derived from the two short versions of the word "Taka" and "Toa" which means "So it has to be", since the Father was being the main leading figure in the family, he had to tell how the things has to be handled inside of the family!!!! capishi, and dont come to me and tell me that this doesnt comes right, I can tell you another example why this can be,because thats the way how we Macedonians talk: look at the word "Zhimi", if you dont know what this word means here short explaination: Zhimi means one have to swear about something that is true, so he sais Zhimi to confirm that he means it real, its true and so on. So look at the in the word and tell me which words are here in??? I tell you you Balgam, bustard one!! "Zhi" comes from the word "Zhi-vot" and "mi" refers to me, so the hole word means "Zhivoto mi" if this what I tell you is not true, so I stand for the Thing that I claim with my Life is the meaning of the hole word. Alles clar. dont come to me with some Tatar Indo European meanings, about Tato and so. For the Macedonian words are always simple Macedonian meanings how they are derived, but since you arent Macedonian, and more you are Tatar, you cant know what is what, not even closly. And Bashtir can be Bulgarian word, since it sounds Tatar, but not Tato. So Tato is Tato, no Bashta or this or that. Swallow this, and die. Bustard Kopile, and so on and so on[:(!][:(!] You have to think over about this too ass!!!!
anadolec	Actually I want to write in Macedonian but as I see you do not understand simple macedonian words like bread or forest((((
mnik	quote: Originally posted by anadolec Actually I want to write in Macedonian but as I see you do not understand simple macedonian words like bread or forest(((( I undarstand and write in Macedonian perfectly, but do not talk in Macedonian with asses that want to tell me that Tato,Tatko,Tata can be derived from Bashtiar. more to it, I dont want to talk in Macedonian with fucking Bulgarians, since many that I met only play so as they undarstand me, but have very big difficultis undarstanding me!!! so English is perfect, its neutral, and no ass can play to me that he undarstands me and than wants to impose upon me some Great Bulgarian Dogma with no roots. and what happens to the so called BMRO-DPMNE , Bulgarian Macedonian Revolutionary Organization? he redrowed his attack and comment. if you wish I can give you more explanation on what Tatko and Tata can refer to? or do you want to learn an lesson of other Macedonian words. tell me what the hack means Dshtaria, where comes it from. Macedonian do not say Dshtaria to daughter, they say K'erka!!! what this word have with yours, and more to it, did you took this word from the English or German(Tohter)??? or do you know what Dzunica is??? if you think you talk Macedonian, than give your origin from where you are, and not hiding as every single Bulgarian here, talking in Macedonia, present your self as one, and than want to teach me History!!!! shit heads!!![:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]
mnik	quote: Originally posted by anadolec What dos mean the words bek, kibele, paris and so called anadolec, bek does not means anything i Macedonian, not where I come from, kibele!! we dont have such thing, we have Kimbel, but it means much different as you want to say, and paris is paris for me and other Macedonians. bread in macedonian is Leb, forest is Shuma,or Gora. so Balgam, this what you wrote is not Macedonian, and if you want to prove me something else, you are invited to do so!!!! [xx(]
lazzio	Ñâåòèòå áðàà Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè, ñâåòè Êëèìåíò, ñâåòè Íàóì, ñâåòè Ãîðàñò, ñâåòè Ñàâà, ñâåòè Àíãåëàðè¼ „Ìàåäîíñêè ïðîñâåòèòåëè" è „àâòîðè íà ìàêåäîíñêàòà àçáóêà" Ñïîðåä ëóƒå îä Ñêîï¼å, êîè øòî áåçñðàìíî ñå íàðåêóâààò èñòîðè÷àðè, Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè áèëå ìàêåäîíöè è ¼à ñîçäàëå ìàêåäîíñêàòà àçáóêà, ò.í ãëàãîëèöà. Òàêâè äîêàçè âî äðåâíèòå õðîíèêè è æèòè¼à íà ñâåòèòå áðàà ñå ðàçáèðà íåìà. Çà ñêîïñêèòå „èñòîðè÷àðè" å äîâîëíî, øòî òèå ñå ðîäåíè âî Ñîëóí, à êàêî øòî òèå âèêààò - Ñîëóí å âî Ìàêåäîíè¼à. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ñâ. Íàóì Îõðèäñêè, ôðåñêà âî ñåëî Âåëãîø÷à, Îõðèäñêî, XIX âåê. Íàòïèñîò å íà áóãàðñêè ¼àçèê ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ñî èìåòî Ìàêåäîíè¼à âî òîà âðåìå ñå îçíà÷óâà êàêî øòî âèäîâìå, ñîñåìà äðóãà ãåîãðàôñêà îáëàñò. Ìàêåäîíöè áèëå è íèâíèòå ó÷åíèöè, Êëèìåíò, Íàóì, Àíãåëàðè¼, Ñàâà, Ãîðàñò, êîè øòî ãè ïðèäðóæóâàëå ñîëóíñêèòå áðàà âî Ìîðàâñêàòà ìèñè¼à. Ïîñëå íåó-ñïåõîò íà èñòàòà è ïî ñìðòòà íà Ìåòîäè âî 886 ãîä. /Êèðèë ïî÷èíàë ïîðàíî âî 869 ãîä./ òèå „åìèãðèðàëå" âî Áóãàðè¼à è ïðèñòèãíàëå âî áóãàðñêàòà ïðåñòîëíèíà Ïëèñêà, íî ñå ñêàðàëå ñî áóãàðñêèîò öàð Áîðèñ I è ïîñëå íåêîëêó ìåñåöè „èçáåãàëå" âî, ñâî¼àòà òàòêîâèíà „Ìàêåäîíè¼à". Ïðè÷èíà çà êàâãàòà áèëà... ñîñòî¼áàòà øòî áóãàðèòå âåå èìàëå àçáóêà êî¼à øòî áèëà íàðå÷åíà - „êèðèëèöà" /èñòàòà êî¼à øòî è äåíåñ ñå óïîòðåáóâà âî Áóãàðè¼à, Ñðáè¼à, Ðóñè¼à, Óêðàèíà, Áåëîðóñè¼à è Ìàêåäîíè¼à/, è íå ñàêàëå äà ïèøóâààò íà èðèëî-Ìåòîäèåâàòà ãëàãîëèöà. Ñå âðàòèëå âî „ðîäíàòà" Ìàêåäîíè¼à /òóêà àâòîðèòå ñðàìåæëèâî ïðåìîë÷óâààò äåêà Ìàêåäîíè¼à å âî ãðàíèöèòå íà áóãàðñêàòà äðæàâà/ êàäå øòî çàïî÷íàëå äà ïðîïîâåäàò õðèñòè¼àíñòâî ñî êíèãè íàïèøàíè íà ãëàãîëèöà ò.å. íà „ìàêåäîíñêè" ¼àçèê. Ïîêàñíî è âî äåíåøíà Ìàêåäîíè¼à, áóãàðñêèòå îêóïàòîðè ¼à âîâåëå „êèðèëèöàòà". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ñâ. Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè, èêîíà îä öðêâàòà âî ìàíàñòèðîò Ëåøîê, Òåòîâñêî, XIX âåê. Íàòïèñîò å íà áóãàðñêè ¼àçèê ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ïîáåñðàìíè ëàãè òåøêî äà ñå íà¼äàò è âî ñèòå îñòàíàòè òåçè íà ìàêåäîíèçìîò ñîáðàíè çàåäíî. Íèòó åäåí çáîð îä êàæàíîòî ïîãîðå íå å âèñòèíèòà. Ïîèíàêó êàæàíî âî äîêóìåíòèòå êîè äîñòèãíàëå äî íàøè äíè, íåìà íèêàêâà òðàãà îä ïîäàòîöèòå âî ïîëçà íà êîå è äà å îä ãîðíèòå òâðäåœà. Íî èìà äîêàçè âî èçîáèëñòâî, êîè ñâåäî÷àò äîâîëíî óáåäëèâî, çà òîà äåêà ñèòå íàñòàíè âî âðñêà ñî ñîçäàâàœåòî è ðàçïðîñòðàíóâàœåòî íà ñëîâåíñêàòà ïèñìåíîñò ñå èçâðøèëî ñàìî îä áóãàðè. Çà ìàêåäîíöè íèêàäå íå ñå ñïîìíóâà, áèäå¼è òàêîâ íàðîä âî òàà åïîõà ïðîñòî íå ïîñòîåë. Êàêâà å âèñòèíàòà ñïîðåä ïîñòîå÷êèòå àâòåíòè÷íè äîêóìåíòè. Çà íàðîäíîñòòà íà Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè¼ âî ñâåòñêàòà íàóêà ñå ñïîðåëî ìíîãó, íî ñïîðîò áèë îêîëó òîà äàëè ñå áóãàðè èëè ãðöè. Äåíåñêà ìåƒóíàðîäíàòà ñëàâ¼àíèñòèêà ãî ñìåòà ñïîðîò çà ðåøåí - Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè è àêî áèëå ñèíîâè íà âèñîêîïîñòàâåí âèçàíòèñêè ÷èíîâíèê, ñå îä áóãàðñêî ïîòåêëî. Âèçàíòè¼à íå å ãð÷êà äðæàâà, à ìíîãóíàöèîíàëíà èìïåðè¼à è íåìà íèøòî ÷óäíî âî ôàêòîò, äåêà åäåí áóãàðèí ìîæåë äà èìà òàêâà ðàáîòà. Êàêî øòî å ïîçíàòî îä æèòèåòî íà Êèðèë, òî¼ âî åäåí ðàçãîâîð çà âðåìå íà ñâî¼àòà ìèñè¼à, êàæóâà äåêà äåäî ìó ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- „ÑÇ. Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè, ÑÂ. Áîëãàðñêè ïðîñâåòèòåëè" èêîíà îä Êè÷åâñêèîò ìàíàñòèð „Ñâ. Áîãîðîäèöà Ïðå÷èñòà", XIX âåê. Íàòïèñèòå ñå íà áóãàðñêè ¼àçèê. Áóãàðñêàòà àçáóêà å íàïèøàíà íà ïåðãàìåíò, êî¼ øòî ñâåòèòå áðàà ãî äðæàò âî ðàöå. Âî òàà àçáóêà íåäîñòèãààò ìíîãó áóêâè íà ñîâðåìåíàòà ìàêåäîíñêà àçáóêà, íî èìà è äðóãè, ïðåâçåìàíè îä àçáóêàòà íà ñðáèíîò Âóê ÊàðàŸè ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- áèë àðèñòîêðàò „áëèçîê ñî öàðîò" íî áèë ïðèíóäåí äà åìèãðèðà âî Âèçàíòè¼à. Âî òîà âðåìå ñëîâåíèòå /êðà¼îò íà VII âåê/ èìààò ñàìî åäíà äðæàâà - áóãàðñêàòà, òàêà øòî öàðñêèîò äâîð, êàäå øòî ñå îäâèâà íàñòàíîò, ìîæå äà áèäå ñàìî áóãàðñêè. Íà¼ïîñëå îäëè÷íîòî âëàäååœå íà ñëîâåíñêèîò ¼àçèê å ïîñëåäíèîò ñèëåí àðãóìåíò âî ïîëçà íà áóãàðñêîòî ïîòåêëî íà áðààòà. Ãðöèòå íèêàäå íå áè ìîæåëå äà íàó÷àò ñëîâåíñêè ¼àçèê äî òàêâà ñîâðøåíîñò - âî òîãàøíèòå øêîëñêè èíñòèòóöèè íåäîñòèãààò êàòåäðè ïî ñëîâåíñêà ôèëîëîãè¼à. Âåðçè¼àòà, äåêà äâà¼öà ãðöè ìîæàò äà íàó÷àò ñëîâåíñêè ¼àçèê îä ñåëàíèòå ïî ñîëóíñêèòå ïàçàðè /îêîëèíàòà íà Ñîëóí íàâèñòèíà áèëà íàñåëåíà ñî ñëîâåíñêî íàñåëåíèå/ íå ìîæå äà èçäðæè ñåðèîçíà êðèòèêà. Îä ñèðîìàøíèîò ôîíä íà çáîðîâè íà ñåëñêèîò ðå÷íèê, êî¼ øòî ìîæå äà ñå íàó÷è íà ïàçàðèòå, òåøêî ìîæå äà ñå ïðåâåäóâà êîìïëèöèðàíàòà ôèëîçîôñêà ìàòåðè¼à, íà ñâåòèòå õðèñòè¼àíñêè êíèãè. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Èêîíà íà Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè âî öðêâàòà Ñâ. Íåäåëà âî Áèòîëà. Íàòïèñîò ïîä íåà ãëàñè: Áúëãàðñêè ïðîñâåòèòåëè âú Ïðåñëàâú 1873. Íåñïîñîáíà áåçáîæíà ðàêà ãî èçáðèøàëà áóãàðñêè íî ãî îñòàâèëà Ïðåñëàâú. Î÷èãëåäíî áåçáîæíèîò ñðáîìàí íå çíàåë, äåêà Ïðåñëàâ å ïðåñòîëíèíà íà Áóãàðè¼à âî IÕ-Õ âåê ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ „Ñâ. Éîàí Âëàäèìèð Áúëãàðñêè", ôðåñêà îä Äåáàðñêèîò ìàíàñòèð „Ñâ. Èâàí Áèãîð" XIX âåê. Áåçáîæíà ðàêà ãî èçáðèøàëà „Áúëãàðñêè" è íàïèøàëà „Åëáàñàíñêè". Íàòïèñîò å íà áóãàðñêè ¼àçèê ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ïîòåêëîòî íà Êëèìåíò, Íàóì, Àíãåëàðè, Ñàâà, Ãîðàñò å ïî âåå îä ¼àñíî - òèå ñå ðîäåíè êàæóâààò íèâíèòå æèâîòîïèñöè /êîè ñå è íèâíè ó÷åíèöè/ âî Ìèçè¼à, äåíåøíà Áóãàðè¼à, îä áëàãîðîäíè ðîäèòåëè. Òîà å íîðìàëíî - òèå áèëå ìëàäè áóãàðñêè äðæàâíè ñëóæáåíèöè çàäîëæåíè ñî ìèñè¼àòà äà ãî èçó÷àò ñëîâåíñêîòî ïèñìî è áðîåâè âî Âåëèêîìîðàâè¼à è äà ãî ïðåíåñàò âî Áóãàðè¼à, à òîà è ãî ïðàâàò çèìàòà âî 886 ãîäèíà. Çà íèêàâà êàâãà ñî áóãàðñêèîò öàð Áîðèñ I íå ïèøóâààò íèâíèòå ñîâðåìåíè áèîãðàôè, ãîëåì äåë îò êîè ñå ñòðàíöè. Íàïðîòèâ òèå ñîîïøòóâààò äåêà Êëèìåíò å èç-ïðàòåí ñî ìèñè¼à âî Îõðèä ëè÷íî îò öàð Áîðèñ êî¼ ìó ïîäàðèë òðè áîë¼àðñêè êóè. Íî íåøòî ïîâåå, áóãàðñêèîò àäìèíèñòðàòèâåí óïðàâíèê íà îáëàñòà Êóòìè÷åâèöà, âî êî¼à áèë Îõðèä áèë ñìåíåò è íà íåãîâî ìåñòî ñî Êëèìåíò çàìèíàë íîâ ðåãèîíàëåí óïðàâíèê - Äîìåòà. Íåìó ìó áèëî ïîðà÷àíî äà ãî ñëóøà è äà ãî èñïîëíóâà ñåòî îíà øòî å ìó áèäå êàæàíî îä Êëèìåíò, êî¼ î÷èãëåäíî áèë íàãðàäåí íå ñàìî ñî öðêîâíà, à è ñî àäìèíèñòðàòèâíà âëàñò âî äåíåøíà Ìàêåäîíè¼à. Òàêà ëè ïîñòàïóâà åäåí öàð ñî äîñêîðî íåïîçíàò òóƒèíåö, ñî êîãî ïîñëå äâà-òðè ìåñåöà êîìóíèöèðàœå ñå ñêàðàë è òîà çà ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ñâ. Ñåäìî÷èñëåíèöè, ôðåñêà îä öðêâàòà „Ñâ. Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè" âî Ðåñåí, XIX âåê. Íàòïèñèòå ñå íà áóãàðñêè ¼àçèê ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ôóíäàìåíòàëíî ïðàøàœå - íà êàêâà ïèñìåíîñò äà ñå ïèøóâà âî äðæàâàòà? Âèñòèíàòà å ñîñåìà ïîèíàêâà. Êëèìåíò áèë çàäîëæåí ñî íîâà âàæíà ìèñè¼à - äà ïîäãîòâè òà¼íî îä ãð÷êèòå åïèñêîïè, êîè ïîñëå 870 ãîä. ïî ðåøåíèå íà Öàðèãðàäñêàòà óïðàâà ãè óïðàâóâààò áóãàðñêèòå öðêîâíè îáëàñòè, íåêîëêó èë¼àäè áóãàðñêè ñâåøòåíèöè êîè øòî ãî âëàäåàò ñëîâåíñêèîò ïèñìåí ¼àçèê è äà ãî îðãàíèçèðà ïðîèçâîäñòâî íà ñëîâåíñêè êíèãè çà áîãîñëóæáà. Ñåòî òîà ñî öåë, åäåí äåí ïîñëå íåêîëêó ãîäèíè äà ñå îòôðëè ãð÷êèîò ¼àçèê îä áîãîñëóæáèòå ïî èë¼àäíèöèòå áóãàðñêè öðêâè. Êàêî øòî å ïîçíàòî âî èçãðàäåíèîò îä Êëèìåíò ìàíàñòèð Ïàíòåëå¼ìîí âî Îõðèä ñî ïàðè íà öàð Áîðèñ I, Êëèìåíò çà ñåäóì ãîäèíè ïîäãîòâèë 3500 ñâåøòåíèöè. Íåêàäå âî Ñåâåðíà Áóãàðè¼à /äàëåêó îò ïðåñòîëíèíàòà Ïëèñêà - ñå ïðåòïîñòàâóâà âî ìàíàñòèðîò Ìóðôàòëàð âî Ðîìàíè¼à/ Íàóì èñòî òàêà ïîäãîòâèë èë¼àäíèöè ñâåøòåíèöè è êíèãè. Èñòîòî ãî ïðàâåëå è Ñàâà è Ãîðàñò âî ãðàä Áåðàò /êî¼ äåíåñ ñå íàîƒà âî Àëáàíè¼à/. Òîà ìó äîçâîëèëî íà öàð Áîðèñ I âî 893 ãîä. äà ñâèêà íàðîäåí ñîáèð êî¼ äîíåñîë ðåøåíèå áîãîñëóæáàòà âî Áóãàðè¼à äà áèäå íà ðîäåí ¼àçèê è ïèñìåíîñò. Êàêâà áèëà òàà ïèñìåíîñò? Ñå ðàçáèðà êèðèëèöà, ñîçäàäåíà îä Êëèìåíò âî Îõðèä ïîìåƒó 886 - 893 ãîäèíà, çà òîà èìà è ¼àñíè ïîäàòîöè âî íåãîâîòî æèòèå. Ñðåäíîâåêîâíèîò öðêîâåí áèîãðàô íà Êëèìåíò ¼àñíî ïèøóâà äåêà òî¼ ¼à íàïðàâèë òàà àçáóêà, çàòîà øòî âî ïðîöåñîò íà îáóêà çàáåëåæàë, äåêà êîìïëèöèðàíèòå ãðàôè÷êè ñòðóêòóðè íà ãëàãîëèöàòà òåøêî ñå óñâî¼óâààò îä ó÷åíèöèòå è ¼à ñîçäàë êèðèëèöàòà, êî¼à øòî èìà ïîïðîñò ãðàôè÷êè ñèñòåì. Äàëè êèðèëèöàòà å ìàêåäîíñêà àçáóêà? Ñåêî¼ ÷èòàòåë íà îâàà êíèãà ìîæå äà ñå óâåðè äàëè òîà å âèñòèíèòî êîãà å âëåçå âî öðêâà è å çàñòàíå ïðåä èêîíà èëè ôðåñêà íà Ñâ. Ñâ. Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè. Öðêîâíèòå êàíîíè áàðàëå òèå äà áèäàò ñî àçáóêàòà âî ðàöå. Êàêî âî íà¼ñòàðèòå òàêà è âî íà¼íîâèòå, âêëó÷óâà¼è ãî è íîâèîò êàòåäðàëåí õðàì /Ñâ. Êëèìåíò/ âî Ñêîï¼å, ÷èòàòåëîò ìîæå äà âèäè, êàêî äðæàò ñâèòêàí ïåðãàìåíò ñî àçáóêà ñî áóêâè êàêî „Ú, „Þ", „Ë" è äðóãè, êîè îòñóñòâóâààò âî ñîâðåìåíàòà ìàêåäîíñêà àçáóêà, íî ïðèñóñòâóâààò âî áóãàðñêàòà. Äà, çà æàë ñîâðåìåíèòå ìàêåäîíöè ïèøóâààò íà ñðïñêàòà àçáóêà, ñîçäàäåíà îä ñðïñêèîò ïðåðîäáåíèê Âóê ÊàðàŸè. À îíèå, øòî ïèøóâààò ñî àçáóêàòà íà Êèðèë, Ìåòîäè è Êëèìåíò ñå áóãàðèòå. Âïðî÷åì ðåäóì ñî ïîðòðåòèòå íà öàð Áîðèñ I âî Äåáàðñêèîò, Êè÷åâñêèîò, âî ìàíàñòèðîò „Ñâ. Íàóì" êàêî è âî ìíîãó öðêâè, ìàêåäîíñêèîò ïîñåòèòåë å âèäè êàêî ãè íàðåêóâàëå íàøèòå ïðàäåäîâöè Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè èëè „Ñâ. Ñåäìî÷èñëåíèöè". Âî èêîíè èëè ôðåñêè òèå ñå íàðå÷åíè „áîëãàðñêè ïðîñâåòèòåëè îä „Ïðåñëàâ", „áîëãàðñêè" èëè ñàìî „áîëãàðñêè ïðîñâåòèòåëè". Òàêà å âî öðêâèòå „Ñâ. Áîãîðîäèöà Êììåíè÷êà" âî Îõðèä, âî Êè÷åâñêèîò ìàíàñòèð, âî öðêâàòà, „Ñâ. îðƒè" âî Ðåñåí, âî öðêâàòà „Ñâ.Íåäåëà" âî Áèòîëà, âî öðêâàòà âî ñåëî Áåøèø÷à, Ìàðèîâñêî è ìíîãó äðóãè. Âïðî÷åì, äåêà Ñâåòè Êëèìåíò å áóãàðñêè äðæàâåí ñëóæáåíèê ñå ãëåäà îä ôàêòîò øòî âî 893ã. íå àðõèåïèñêîïîò, à öàð Áîðèñ I ãî íàçíà÷óâà çà „ïðâ åïèñêîï íà ñëîâåíñêèîò ¼àçèê" âî Ñòðóìèöà. Èñòî òàêà öàð Áîðèñ ãî íàçíà÷óâà Ñâ. Íàóì íà íåãîâîòî ìåñòî âî Îõðèäñêàòà øêîëà è ìó äàâà ïàðè äà ãî èçãðàäè ìàíàñòèðîò „Ñâ. Íàóì". Ïðåä öàð Ñèìåîí, Ñâ. Êëèìåíò ïîäíåë îñòàâêà íåêîëêó ìåñåöè ïðåä äà ïî÷èíå âî 916 ãîä., îòêàêî ïî÷óâñòâóâàë, äåêà ñèëèòå ãî íàïóøòààò, ñïîðåä ñðåäíîâåêîâíèòå àâòîðè. Òîà å âèñòèíàòà çà Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè è íèâíèòå ó÷åíèöè, êàêî è çà íèâíàòà àçáóêà. Áóãàðñêî äåëî, èçâðøåíî îä áóãàðè âî èìåòî íà áóãàðñêàòà äðæàâà è áóãàðñêèîò íàðîä. Âî ïî÷åòîêîò ìàêåäîíñêèòå ëàãè ãè íàðåêîâ „áåñðàìíè" íå ñëó÷à¼íî. Ïî îâà ïðàøàœå òèå ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Íàòïèñ íà áóãàðñêè ¼àçèê îä 1313 ã. çà èçãðàäáàòà íà öðêâàòà âî ñåëî Ñòàðî Íàãîð÷èíî, Êóìàíîâñêî ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ôàëñèôèêóâààò ñâåòè õðèñòè¼àíñêè òåêñòîâè, êàêâè øòî ñå æèòè¼àòà íà ñâåòöèòå /ñèòå ó÷åñíèöè âî ñîçäàâàœåòî íà àçáóêàòà ñå îá¼àâåíè çà ñâåòöè îä Ñâåòàòà ïðàâîñëàâíà öðêâà, à Êèðèë è Ìåòîäè è îä Êàòîëè÷êàòà öðêâà/ èëè ñå ïðàâàò, êàêî äà íå ïîñòî¼àò. Ôàëñèôèêóâàœåòî íà ñâåòè òåêñòîâè, èêîíè è ôðåñêè ñî ëèêîâè íà ñâåòöè å ìíîãó òåæîê ãðåâ è ïîâåêå îä ñèãóðíî å äåêà âî çàäãðîáíèîò æèâîò òèå èçìàìíèöè å âðè¼àò âî êàçàíèòå íà ïåêîëîò äî âòîðîòî ïðèøåñòâèå /âòîðî òî äîàƒàœå íà Õðèñòîñ/. À ìîæåáè è ïîñëå íåãî.
ProMKD	A tie glupaci od Sofija koj besramno se narekuvaat luge doagaat na Makedonski forumi i sirat propaganda. DALI MISLIS DEKA NEKOJ OD NAS GI CITA TVOJVE 200 LINII NA GLUPOSTI???