| Македонците со најстари гени на Балканот | |
| ZOTE | MAKEDONCITE SO NAJSTARI GENI NA BALKANOT Spored genetskite ispituvanja HLA genite se potvrda za makedonskata avtohotnost na balkanot. Nauchniot sorabotnik pri katedrata za imunologija, pri Medicinskiot fakultet vo Skopje d-r Kocho Dimitrovski i svetski poznatiot prof. d-r Antonio Arnaiz-Vellena od Shpanija vo bolnicata "12 Oktomvri" vo Madrid reliziraa ispituvanje na HLA genite kaj Makedoncite. Rezultatite bile objaveni vo danskoto spisanie "Tkivni antigeni" koe izleguva na angliski jazik i e najznachajno spisanie za ovaa problematika Pozitivno beshe shto edna nezavisna laboratorija gi napravi tie ispituvanja, zatoa shto dokolku se napravea ispituvanjata kaj nas, che imashe komentari dali e toa objektivno napraveno analizirano dodava d-r Dimitrovski. Od dobienite soznanija nie Makedoncite sme mnogu slichni so populacijata od Krit. Nasheto genetsko poteklo e mnogu blisku so narodite od Mediteranot, pred se so narodite od Korzika, Sicilija, Francija, Shpanija, Italija. Na Krit isto taka e napraveno ispituvanje na Kritskata populacija od strana na prof. d-r Arnaiz-Vellena. Spored rezultatite od tie ispituvanja dojdeno e do soznanie deka lugchetos shto ziveat na Krit se mnogi slichni so narodite od Sicilija, Sardinija, Korzika, od Mediteranskite ostrovi a se pomalku slichni so Grcite od kontinentot [Afrika] ili Kipar. Grcite za razlika od site ovie Mediteranski narodi drastichno se razlikuvaat po genetskata frekfencija.Spored genetskite ispituvanja se smeta deka tie poteknuvaat od nekoi predeli od pod Sahara potochno od sub-Saharskiot region. Tie imaat migrirano pokraj mediteranskiot istochen breg i go naselile ovoj region kade shto se sega, se soznanijata na d-r Arnaiz-Vellena. Nepobiten fakt e deka moze da se smeni ime, moze da se smeni jazik megchu toa genite ne mozat da se smenat. Genite se prenesuvaat od generacija na generacija se menuvaat samo edinkite koi gi nosat tie geni i dokolku nema golemi demografski promeni so odliv i priliv na narod togash genite postijano si opstojuvaat na edna teritorija i imaat odredena postojana frekvencija. Najtragicno e shto ova go doznav od edna internet stranica www.unitedmacedonians.org a bilo napishano na data 18.01.2002 a ispituvanjata bile pred tri godini od prdhodno navedenata data. Sega sakam da prasham neshto. Koj e kriv? Shto za ovoj nepobiten dokaz nashite novinari, istorichari mediumite, i dr. ne go uchat narodot za vistinata, za da moze da se bori so site lazni tezi na nashite sosedni drzavi. Zatoa shto oni imaat moch i vlast da go napravat toa, da go prosvetat narodot kako shto vo minatoto toa go pravele nashite heroi, pisateli, i site sveti lichnosti shto se rodile na ovie prostori. Pozdrav od Zote |
| ZOTE | Eve ushte eden interesn link na koj ima mnogu za Makedonskata istorija www.freewebs.com/infomak/ |
| Inkognito | quote:Zote ovie materijali jas gi imam od 2002 god. (gi dobiv od Shpancite) Vo toa vreme gi imashe informaciive po vesnicive, za zal samo na toa i ostana, no bitno e deka raspolagame so tie materijali, koga togash kje se iskoristat. Ps: sho neshto gi nema tatarive da gugnat neshto ovde [?] [8D] |
| ZOTE | Ima edna pogovorka shto glasi: "PRED FAKTITE I BOGOVITE MOLCHAT" Pozdrav do inkognito od Zote |
| OooOo | Go ima li ovoj tekst nekade na Angliski? |
| јузер | Slicno imase i negde vakva tema deka makedoncite se slicni so albancite i hrvatite, a so srbite i bugarite ne. Sto e vistinata? Ama vazno grcite poteknuvaat od Etiopija, na toa mi teknuva, a i tuka se potvrdi :) |
| toni_a | istava rabota za genite ja citav na eden bugarski forum.tamu imase edno "paste" za rabotava na angliski jazik.nisto ne napisaa,odnosno ne zelosno bese prikazana rabotata.imase za razlikata megu grcite i nas,eden diagram i tolku. posle toa imase 2-3komentari i nisto poveke. bugarite imaat isto napraveno test ama izgleda ne e objaven! neznam zasto [?] [:)] |
| silijeski | quote:procitaj [url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract"]ovde[/url] za nasite geni na angliski ako sakas |
| ProMKD | Toa jas go znaev odamna! Jas ziveam so tie stari geni :) MACEDONIA FOREVER |
| stan | quote:Here's the test :) [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12542743&query_hl=4[/url] The test is posted on the same site as "silijeski" link about macedonians :) In brief: quote: |
| Christian | voa tatarive ko pecurki niknuvaat na forumov. |
| ProMKD | stan sucks a lotta dick, la la la la |
| ink_patriot | Bravo stan! Ima edna pogovorka shto glasi: "PRED FAKTITE I BOGOVITE MOLCHAT" A az bih dobavil i taka narechenite MAKEDONCI-polu bogove!!! |
| ink_patriot | Chistian, ti se vazmoshtavash ot TATARITE vav Foruma a shto ne se ogledash na ulicata i v sasednata kashta?Tam sashto moje da ima TATARI!Pa moje i na kitaici da prilichat,de da znai chovek!Tetezi tatari s drapnatite ochi sa dosta razprostraneni iz balkanite!Nabrojavat kam 8 milona! |
| ZOTE | Golema e razlikata vo ispitivanjeto kako prvo site doktori se bugari, kako vtoro ispituvanjata se izvrsheni vo "Medicinski Univerzitet Sofija Bugarija" shto znachi deka toa ispituvanje ne e objektivno napraveno i analizirano. |
| stan | quote:Bulgarian Article M. Ivanova, A. Michailova, E. Naumova Central Laboratory of Clinical Immunology, Medical University, Sofia, Bulgaria E. Rozemuller,M. Tilanus Department of Pathology, Section Molecular and Immunopathology, University Hospital of Utrecht, Utrecht, the Netherlands Tyufekchiev Research Institute of Forensic Science and Criminology, Sofia, Bulgaria Macedonian Article A. Arnaiz-Villena, A. Pacho, J. Moscoso, E. Go'mez-Casado, C. Silvera-Redondo, P. Varela, J. Marti'nez-Laso Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain K. Dimitroski, M. Blagoevska, V. Zdravkovska Tissue Typing laboratory. Institute of Blood Transfusion, Skopje. Republic of Macedonia What's the difference? |
| stan | Note also that the Bulgarian article is written after the Macedonian, which means that in the Macedonaian may be they haven't information about the Bulgarian blood tests... Also note the headings: "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks." and "HLA polymorphism in Bulgarians defined by high-resolution typing methods in comparison with other populations." You can see that in Bulgarian test they make a "comparison with other populations" and the Macedonian is targeted mainly to comparision with Greeks, they do not say anything for Bulgarians. |
| Christian | abe bugari ili pisuvajte na makedonski ili na angliski ne moze covek da ve razbere, i dosta veke provocirajte i vregate.Ili idete ovde za zdravi diskusii ili krsete glava. posle ke placete koa ve baniraat. |
| toni_a | ...closely related to Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians... hmmmm, koj li bil tuka na balkanov,pred da dojdat nekoi drugi very strange |
| Duhot na Vovata | hmmmm, koj li bil tuka na balkanov,pred da dojdat nekoi drugi Trakite. |
| ProMKD | hmm.... jas bi rekol MAKEDONCITE |
| Duhot na Vovata | Ja pa ke rekam - Trakite. Konete na Res - Trakijski car koj e spomenat vo Iliada kako se pritekal na pomok na Trojancite. Najstaroro obraboteno zlato na svetot - najdeno kae Varna (makedonski grad, ;)) Vo tekot na osumdesete na danoto na Ahtopolskiot zaliv (grad vo denesna Bugarija na Crno more) megunarodnata arheolozka ekspedicija Kosmos pronajde kamena bradva (sekirce) datirana 5000 godini - sigurno nekoj makedonec ja zagubil tamu ;). Dokolku znam e vo arheolozkiot muzej vo Burgas - koj se ineresira moze da pobara i da vidi. |
| angomako | a zosto trakite demek porano od makedoncite? |
| ZOTE | [quote]Originally posted by Duhot na Vovata
Ja pa ke rekam - Trakite. Konete na Res - Trakijski car koj e spomenat vo Iliada kako se pritekal na pomok na Trojancite. Najstaroro obraboteno zlato na svetot - najdeno kae Varna (makedonski grad, ;)) Vo tekot na osumdesete na danoto na Ahtopolskiot zaliv (grad vo denesna Bugarija na Crno more) megunarodnata arheolozka ekspedicija Kosmos pronajde kamena bradva (sekirce) datirana 5000 godini - sigurno nekoj makedonec ja zagubil tamu ;). Dokolku znam e vo arheolozkiot muzej vo Burgas - koj se ineresira moze da pobara i da vidi. Makedonija bila naselena ushte od najranite vreminja. Najstariot poznat zitel {chovek} na Balkanskiot Poluostrov e pronajden vo Makedonija, imeno vo 1960 godina na Sveta Gora {na Makedonskiot poluostrov Halkidik} bil pronajden cherep za koj se smeta deka e star 270.000 godini. Vo istata peshtera bile otkrieni chovekovi aktivnosti stari barem polovina milion godini! {Kokkoros and Kanellis: Decouverte d'un crane d'homme paleolithique dans la peninsule chalcidique', L'Antropologie 64, 1960} Vo Makedonija e pronajdena i najranata dosega otkriena neolitska naselba. Ovaa naselba e datirana pomegchu 6300 do 5300 godini pred hrista. Pa sega vidi ti koj ziveel tuka so vekovi a koj doshol na gosti |
| dejan | sto mislite na ova?? http://www.unet.com.mk/ancient-macedonians-part2/spomenici-e.htm interesen sajt. mislam treba drug topic za antickiot makedonski jazik. |
| ZOTE | Dejan mnogu interesen sajt, poln so razlichni istoriski fakti, koi jas poslednive nekolku meseci gi sobiram od internet i si gi shtampam na ptinter zashto se ne mozesh da zapamtish. Pa koga che se javat razlichni provokatori so lazni tezi, che imam fakti i dokazi od najrazlichni temi na istorijata na Makedonija Pozdrav od Zote |
| mnik | quote:abe brakja chitajte, se crno na belo pishuva: http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf Makedonija na Makedoncite |
| Jakov | Ovoj tekst e prefrlen od temata "Kalash and Y chromosome"
quote: |
| Inkognito | quote:Naskoro kje go ima i na Makedonski :)momentalno go preveduvam i kje bide gotov nekade vtornik-sreda. Koj saka da go ima prevodot neka mi se obrati posle sreda. Eve samo eden mal del od tekstot: HLA – genite kaj Makedoncite i sub-Saharskoto poteklo na grcite Kratok pregled: HLA geni se odredeni kaj poedinci od Republika Makedonija so DNA prosleduvawe. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ geni pro{ireni haplotipovi za prv pat se odredeni i rezultatite se sporedeni so onie na drugite Mediteranski grupi, osobeno so nivnite sosedi grcite. Napraveni se potrebnite analizi na genetskite razliki i sli~nosti. Postignati se slednive zaklu~oci: 1) Makedoncite pripa|aat na “postariot” Mediteranski substratum, kako Iberijcite (vklu~uvaj}i gi Baskite), Severno Afrikancite, Italijancite, Francuzite, Evreite, Libancite, Turcite (Anadolcite), Armencite i Irancite. 2) Makedoncite ne se vo relacija so geografski bliskite Grci, koi ne pripa|aat na “postariot” Mediteranski substratum, 3) Grcite imaat cvrsta povrzanost so sub-Saharskoto (Etiopskoto) naselenie, koe gi odvojuva od drugite Mediteranski grupi. I Grcite i Etiopjanite delat zaedni~ki kvazi-specifi~ni DRB1 geni. Periodot koga se slu~ile ovie odnosi e anti~ki no ne e siguren i mo`e da e povrzan so premestuvaweto na Etiopjanite - Etiopjanite koi `iveele vo faraonskiot Egipet. Zaedni~kite geni na Grcite so sub-Saharskite Afrikanci Ispituvani se posebni DRB1 geni koi se prisutni kaj grcite a ne se prisutni kaj niedna druga Mediteranska populacija so cel da se ispita mo`noto poteklo na grcite koi ostanuvaat kako otcepeni me|u Mediterancite. Tabelata 5 poka`uva prisustvo na gr~ki geni glavno vo sub-Saharskite populacii od Etiopija (Amhara, Omoro), Sudan (Huba) i Zapadna Afrika. Nekoi od ovie geni se sporadi~no prisutni vo drugi populacii bez bilo kakvi relacii me|u niv. Od ovie podatoci se gleda deka sub-Saharskite Afrikanci i Grcite delat kvazi-specifi~ni HLA-DRB1 geni. Makedoncite Na{ite rezultati poka`uvaat deka Makedoncite se rodninski povrzani so drugite Mediteranci i ne poka`uvaat bliska povrzanost so drugite; od druga strana se vo srodstvo so Kritjanite. Ova ja potvrduva teorijata deka Makedoncite se eden od najstarite narodi koi postojat na Balkanskiot poluostrov, najverojatno mnogu podolgo pred da dojdat Mikenskite Grci okolu 2 000 god. p.n.e. Ova se samo mali izvadoci koi smetam deka se najvazhni od dosega prevedenoto. |
| Inkognito | Makedoncite Na{ite rezultati poka`uvaat deka Makedoncite se rodninski povrzani so drugite Mediteranci i ne poka`uvaat bliska povrzanost so drugite; od druga strana se vo srodstvo so Kritjanite. Ova ja potvrduva teorijata deka Makedoncite se eden od najstarite narodi koi postojat na Balkanskiot poluostrov, najverojatno mnogu podolgo pred da dojdat Mikenskite Grci okolu 2 000 god. p.n.e. Drugoto mo`no objasnuvawe e deka tie mo`ebi delele genetska osnova so grcite pred hipoteti~noto me{awe pome|u grcite i sub-Saharcite. So ovie rezultati e utvrden kulturniot, istoriskiot i genetskiot identitet na Makedoncite. Kako i da e, istori~arite od 19-ti vek ja fokusirale cela kultura kon grcija, ignoriraj}i gi site Mediteranski kulturi koi bile prisutni dolgo pred klasi~nite Grci. |
| Inkognito | Grcite Na na{e iznenaduvawe, pri~inata zo{to grcite ne poka`uvaat srodstvo so drugite Mediteranci e nivnata genetska povrzanost so sub-Saharskite etni~ki grupi, koi denes `iveat vo Etiopija, Sudan i Zapadna Afrika. Potekloto na Zapadno Afrikanskite crni etni~ki grupi (Fulani, Mosi i Rimaibe) e verojatno Etiopisko. Fulanite se polu-nomadski lovci i edni od nekolkute vo okolinata koi koristat kravjo mleko i mle~ni proizvodi za hrana i trgovija. Crncite Rimaibe bile robovi na Fulani narodot i se izme{ale so niv. Hubi narodot denes e rasprostranet niz Sudan, no se potomci na anti~kite Nubijci koi vladeele so Egipet pome|u 8-mi i 7-mi vek p.n.e., a podocna go utvrdile nivnoto kralstvo kaj Meroe, Severen Kargum. Dva vida na Nubijci se opi~ani vo antikata: Crveni i Crni Dvata narodi Oromo i Amari `iveat vo Etiopskite planini. Tie o~igledno imaat zaedni~ka genetska osnova so zapadno-Afrikanskite grupi spomnati prethodno. Lingvisti~ki, socijalni, tradicionalni i istoriski dokazi ja potvrduvaat teorijata za migracijata na lu|eto od istok kon zapad niz Sahal (Ju`na Sahara) iako ova e seu{te samo debata. |
| ZOTE | Jas pak che kazam deka ovoa ispituvanje na HLA genite e najgolem dokaz deka nie sme starosedelci. Ova e dokaz deka Grcite ni ja kradat isorijata a ne nie na niv. Zatoa oni ne sakaat da se doznae vistinata i ne sakaat da ne priznaat pod ustavno ime zashto che izgubat se {a u stvari toa nikogash ne bilo nivno}. Jas ovoj dokaz go imam ispechateno vo dvaesetina primeroci i mislam da go podelam na mnogu stranski drzavjani za da ja doznaat vistinata, isto taka mislam deka treba da se prikluchime site so rashiruvanje na ovoj dokument sekade po svetot kako po e-mail taka vo a-4 format, do site televizii, do site novinari iako mnogumina znaat za ova ama ne che e losho i da napravat nekoja emisija. Jas duri i na eden sajt za evrovizija go napishav ova reakcijata na grcite beshe ogromna, no i mnogu drugi stranci sigurno go prochitale ispituvanjeto. Za mene ovoj dokument e kako sveto pismo, a nie kako apostolite treba da go rashirime niz svetot za da se doznae vistinata. Isto taka ima mnogu Makedonci koi ne se svesni za svoeto minato a ove e nepobiten dokaz deka vistinata e na nasha strana. Shto da vi kazam iskopirajte go i dajte im go na shto poveche luche da go prochitaat, za da se izborime za nashata pravda prvo treba da ja doznae svetot vistinata pa da vidime togash na cija strana che zastane. |
| ZOTE | Eve ako sakate da ja vidite rekcijata na Grkot po moeto pishuvanje za HLA genite. Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum like: Italians, French, Creatans, Lebanese. Macedonians are not related with geographicalli close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum. Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan [Ethiopian] people, which separte them from other Mediterranenan groups. Ful text: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov" Sashko from FYR Macedonia "My dear shithead from SKOPJE....when ALEXANDER THE GREAT faught FOR GREECE you were still looking for your country on the map!!!!!!!So SHUT Up and put a vibrator in your ass!!!!!!!!!PALIO AGAMITI SKOPIANI POUSTARA!!!!!!! MACEDONIA IS GREEK!!!!!!!!!!!" Anonymous from Greece NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!RIDICULOUS CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!VOICELESS CHICKS!!!!!!!!!!!" Dimitris K. from Greece "I think it's crap..." Chris Zavos from Greece Kolku oni poveche navreduvaat znachi deka gi boli vistinata. Zatoa vie nemojte da navreduvate, nego samo so fakti i dokazi da ja branime vistinata za nashata drzava Makedonija |
| dejan | ahahahaha! gledaj, site upotrebuvat !!!!!!!!!....toa samo moze lud covek da stavi, koj znae deka ne e vo pravo. |
| mnik | read this [:D] http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/spasikov/elendzija.htm interesting point of view [:D] genetski, a i istrijski se podrzuva seto toa sho sme: isto i za makedonskoto sonce kako simbol na makedoncite poglednete: http://forums.vmacedonia.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10027&whichpage=1 realety is realety: you can not fight it. |
| dejan | tie se dobri linkovi, sve e dobro! samo sto ni treba nekoj od nadvor da go promorira toa sve! |
| mnik | this is what one man wrote to me: This is a very interesting article,since I've bene married whith mij Macedonian wife I'm interested in the Macedonian historie. I think the Macedonians feel the same like the Indiaans in Amerika and the Aboriginals in Australia "they took our land and we'ave nothing to say" Sometimes i'm in discussion whith Greek people about Alexander The Great about wy he spoke greek and wy his teacher was Aristotelis. I tell them it's obvious that his father invited Aristotelis to teach Alexander because he was Macedonian and knew the Macedonian language very well because he lived there (Macedonia) fore about 17 years before he went to Athena so it's much easyer fore Alexander to learn. But you allready know,they don't want anything to know about that! Well, I have the same point of view like you have, so just keep going on! The Best Regards Rob Gisbertz The Netherlands |
| dejan | covekot znae sto zbori! |
| dejan | citajte te! http://vesti.mt.net.mk/vest.asp?id=128536 |
| mnik | yeah and those people are geneticaly more close to us than to Greeks [:D][:D] |
| silijeski | www.historyofmacedonia.ogr ima se sto vi dusa saka |
| ZOTE | Pak so eden Grk se sudrivme na tema Makedonija i nejzinoto ime Macedonians named after Greek names AAALLLLLLLLLL the cities they built or renamed. Macedonians had found their name in Homers' lines, apparently becasue they read him fanatically as Alexander said. Macedonians spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World. What they did miss or forgot to do to prove that they were always Greeks? I mean what do you do to prove that you are SlavoSkopians? Livius said that Aetolians, Acarnanians and Macedonians are peoples of the same language ....So Macedonians spoke Greek. Jews said in Daniel's prophecy that Alexander was the King of Greeks. Pesrians called Macedonians as "yauna takabara" that is Greeks .... So all foreign peoples that knew Macedonians consoidered them as Greeks. Demosthenes, the most anti-Macedonian Athenian NOWHERE said that he couldn't understand Macedonian speech, despite he was in Pella at least twice !! Dear ethnic SlavoSkopians, what is Macedonian on you ?? Istor Macedonians were always Greeks Namerno gi postavuvam ovie izjavi zashto sekogash treba sa slushne i drugata strana i da se vidi kako oni razmisluvaat i koja im e strategijata za dokazuvanje na sporot so i okolu imeto Makedonija |
| marko_polog | Sto ima majmuni da ni raskazuvaat za Egejska Makedonija, kako prvo zena mi e poteklo od Buf, drugari imam stotini od toj kraj, pred edna nedela imavme 'Macedonian Festival' ovde vo Detroit, Ima preku 50,000 majmuni ovde, zosto nitu eden ne dojde od niv ako se Makedonci??? |
| mnik | ZOTE nema fajde da se kara chovek so niv, oni se taka doeni, isto kako i Bugarive do nas, a nemaat nishto vo raka. pokazi im go sonceto na nashite Manastiri, pa da videme kolku se oni golemi makedonci, site i Bugarite i Grcite trajat ko pichki ko toa ke im go pokazesh, ili pokazi im gi freskite kade shto lugje se potpishuvale so makedonec, ili dokumenti od rusija i ukraina kade shto ima nacija makedonska, i toa ne od 1945 dokumenti tuku mnogu poodamna, i na krajot pitaj gi a kade e toa deka vie grcite ste bile od sekogash makedonci, do fchera egejska makedonija beshe samo North Greece, a sega od denes za utre Makedonija, do fchera probuvaa da napravat toa ime da ne se izgovori, a od denes se lupat po gradi [}:)] idioti ama toa e, i nashta vlada treba malku poveke da se angazira, a ne samo da krade. |
| Inkognito | Kako shto vetiv :) HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks! Na Angliski http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf Na Makedonski http://www.negotinskikrug.net/GeniteMakedonski.doc |
| mnik | quote:good job |
| stan | quote:Why all the Macedonian articles on that topic did not mention about the Bulgarian genes and did not make comparison between Macedonian and Bulgarian genes? Did they try to hide somtething or what? Of course that you have different genes than greeks, and "very silmilar" to ... you know which one |
| dejan | No we don't know which one my Stan! :))))) |
| mnik | quote:to the Cretans, so it is writen there, isnt it [?][:)][:)] |
| mnik | and why should we compare with the Slav groups, it is also clear that they are also related to us. but the difference between our Genes and your Genes is that what your scientis write with very small letters, namely "Observation of Oriental alleles confirms the contribution of Asians to the genetic diversity of Bulgarians" sorry but in our Genes is no such contribution, you can carefuly read, and for the sufficiency of this observations have signed Spanish scientists. in other words, you can read here, http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bu.html#Intro and here stands that you Cluster more with the Greeks, who also Cluster more with the Turks, so your ass is mixed ass with the Asian Turk Tatar genes, and you are near to us , cause you have also Slav blood, but this doesnt matter: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/servlet/useragent?func=synergy&synergyAction=showAbstract&doi=10.1034/j.1399-0039.2000.560605.x&area=production&prevSearch=%2Ballfield%3Ahla%2B%2Ballfield%3Acretan thats the difference budd. |
| mnik | and here is about your proud name,Bolgar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgars http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:fDOUbPxb3u0J:www.answers.com/topic/turkic-peoples+The+Bulgars,+a+Central+Asian+Turkic+tribe&hl=de&ie=UTF-8 |
| ZOTE | Apel do site na forumot da ispratat e-mail na slednive adresi so baranje do novinarite da gi objavat ispituvanjata na HLA genite vo vesnicite ili da napravat emisija na nekoja od televiziite so kompetentni gosti. Jas so isprachanje na edna e-mail poraka ne mozam da napravam nishto. Zatoa se potrebni povechemina da go storat toa za da dobieme rezultat. Zoshto treba mojot Apel da se poslusha. Zatoa shto pochnuvajchi od mene samiot, jas za ova ispituvanje doznav od internet, a komjuterot go kupiv pred 5 meseci, nitu vo novina, nitu na televiziska emisija se kazalo neshto slichno za ova, a ispituvanjeto e napraveno vo 2001 februar mesec. Za mene ova ispituvanje beshe presuden dokaz deka sme direktni naslednici na Antichka MAkedonija. Kolku ima luche vo Makedonija shto nemaat od kade da se informiraat (nemaat komjuteri i pristap na internet) ili poubavo kazano novinarite ne si ja vrshat svojata rabota za koja imaat moch i vlast da go informiraat narodot a so toa i da ja zajajknuvaat nacionalnata svest i da go podignat patriotskiot duh koj e na mnogu nisko nivo mechu lucheto. So toa sho sme samostojni ne znachi deka borbata zavrshila, i deka ne treba da se doznae vistinata, naprotiv treba ushte poveche da se angazirame za da se osvesti ovoj narod za da ne go izgubime i ova malo parche zemja shto mnogu krv padnalo za nego. [email protected] www.utrinskivesnik.com.mk/ [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=125 Mojata poraka do mediumite sto ja isprativ e slednata (ako neshto sum propushtil ispravete me vie) Ne znam dali ste zapoznaeni so ova ispituvanje na HLA genite no jas bi sakal ako moze da gi objavite vo vashiot vesnik zatoa shto se najgolem dokaz deka nie sme starosedelci.Nepobiten fakt e deka moze da smenish vera, mozesh jazikot da go smesnish, no genite ne mozesh da gi smenish tie se prenesuvaat od generacija na generacija se menuvaat samo edinkite koi gi nosat tie geni i dokolku nema golemi demografski promeni so odliv i priliv na narod togash genite postojano si opstojuvaat na edna teritorija. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27. Click here to read HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martinez-Laso J. Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. [email protected] HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. PMID: 11260506 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov Nacional Libbrary of Medicine Se nadevam deka pozitivno che odgovorite na mojot Apel. |
| toni_a | http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/newspaper/jan02/genetika.html еве и тука имаш инфо. (инаку пратив нешто на веснициве,ајде да видиме дали ке успее) |
| Inkognito | ZOTE, se zboreshe na ovaa tema vo januari 2002-ra, nekoi novinari zavrshija rabota, no ochigledno deka samo mal del od izdavachkite kukji rabotea na taa tema. Temava ochigledno ne beshe vo interes na zaboravanjeto na nashata istorija, koja ja zagovaraa nekoi politichari vo Makedonija! Na ovaa tema znachi se govoreshe samo vo "Makedonsko Sonce". Vo sekoj sluchaj bi bilo ubavo i sega da se progovori za ova. http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2002/sonce411/Tekst16.htm (Ovoj tekst be{e ponuden vo spisanieto "Forum", no istiot e odbien za objavuvawe) http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/newspaper/jan02/genetika.html http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2002/sonce394/Sodr394.htm |
| ZOTE | (Ovoj tekst beshe ponuden vo spisanieto "Forum", no istiot e odbien za objavuvawe) Spisanieto Makedonsko sonce dali izleguva vo Makedonija? http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/newspaper/jan02/genetika.html Jas tokmu od ovaa internet strana ja doznav vistinata za Ispituvanjata na HLA genite. Jas mislam deka sekogash e momentot za da se izvrshi pritisok za objavuvanje na ispitivanjata na HLA genite. Ne mozeme nishto da izgubime so isprachanje na edna e-mail poraka, nego isto taka che pokazeme deka ima svesni Makedonci za svoeto postoenje i istorisko minato. Nie che bideme chisti na sovest, a novinarite nek mu ja mislat dali che objavat ili ne. Togash che se doznae dali ima vistinski patrioti vo ovaa zemja ili shpioni i kodoshi od site sosedni drzavi. |
| Antioch | Mnogu e jasno zasto ne se objavuvaat, ne soodvetstvuvaat so oficijalnata politika vo R. Makedonija, t.e. deka sme potomci na slovenski pleminja sto tuka dosle vo 5-6 vek. Ke treba novi ucebnici da se pisuvaat a toa se dodatni trosoci sto nie ne mozeme da si gi dozvolime... Podobro da si ostaneme mirni i da si traeme a na juznite sosedi da im prepustime da se zamaraat so taka nebitni raboti kako anticka istorija na eden narod koj sto stvoril 3 mokni drzavi. Nie si imame povazni raboti, kako odenje na koncerti (na primer na Sesa :-)), potoa odmor kaj juzniot sosed i najposle i da im ja glasame pesnata za evrovizija. Ima zamisleni navodnici vo del od porakata. |
| Inkognito | quote:Makedonsko Sonce izleguva vo Makedonija! No vo mal tirazh + e nedelnik (izleguva ednash nedelno). A mal zaradi toa kako shto veli Antioch "ne soodvetstvuvaat so oficijalnata politika vo R. Makedonija", nim povekje im lezhat golemite mochurishni pregazuvachi na evropskite rekichki (dunav) :) |
| ZOTE | Znachi li toa deka nema da me podrzite vo baranjeto do site mediumi pishani ili elektronski da gi objavat ispituvanjata na HLA genite? Dali znaete deka silata e vo narodot, deka ako toj e slozen nema sila shto moze da ne gi ispolni negovite baranja. No sam so goli gradi ne mozesh da pobedish, mora da ima sloga. |
| Antioch | Ne znaci :-) Sekoj od nas go pravi toa sto moze i misli deka treba. Jas licno reagirav (po mail)na eden dosta ugleden web site za edna stara civilizacija kade sto slucajno ne bea izbrisale od genetskoto ispituvanje, a sega sme prvi na spisokot narodi. Ne mora sekogas da se ceka na drugite ili pak javno da se zboruva. Ova e najdobronamerno kazano... |
| ozonce | quote:Koja e taa stranica? |
| Antioch | Najiskreni cestitki do site koi ja "izbutkaa" rabotata [:D][:D][:D] |
| mnik | quote:Imash pravo, te podrzuvam. samo problemo e vo toa sho nashata ebana vlada ne podrzuva, samo svoj interesi si tera. |
| mnik | Eve shto mi pisha vreme kako odgovor na mojo mail shto im go pishav: " Ne e problemot vo nas, tuku Vie ne citate vesnici. Za istrazuvanjata na spanskite naucnici e pisuvano i toa poprilicno mnogu pred poveke od edna godina. So pocit, "Vreme" " tochno e jas stvarno ne chitam vesnici. |
| Jakov | Epa ne se pletkaj so tie raboti. :) |
| ZOTE | quote:ZOTE Prvo da ti se zablagodaram na podrshkata. Jas na site e-mail adresi isprativ baranje za da go objavat ispituvanjeto na HLA genite. Odgovor od nieden medium nemam dobieno. A toa shto ti ukazale deka bilo objaveno, pa shto che gi chini ako po nashe baranje toa ispituvanje pak se objavi, pa dali se svesni deka mnogu luche ne znaat, a plus sega se krshi kopjeto okolu imeto na Makedonija. Grcija ne popushta mora ovoj narod da se osvesti, a kako ako ne so postojano pishuvanje vo vrska so potekloto i vistinskata istorija na Makedonskiot narod. No shto e tuka e shto bi rekol nashiot narodot zdravje Boze pa za drugoto che najdeme nekoe reshenie. |
| Inkognito | I jas naidov na slichni reakcii, so taa razlika shto jas lichno kontaktirav so novinarive i tie mi odgovorija deka imale pishuvano na taa tema, i dokolku e nova vest bez problemi bi ja objavile. Probav da im dadam ideja za aktuelizacija na temata (dobra mi beshe zamislata) ama sepak me odbija. |
| mnik | quote:zasho da ne, za proba najchesto ne se dava pari [:)] a stvarno e shteta zatoa oti ne go objavuvaat poftorno. jas na tatko mi go prativ, i chovekot se raduvashe, bidejki cel zivot mi go kazuva toa, a site istorichari vo shkoloto kade shto raboti kako nastavnik po matematika mu velat, gledaj si ja rabotata matematichar pa istorija ke tera. a sega zinale ko im go pokazal ova, zatoa oti svanale deka toa sho go uchat e nekoj vid gluposti. i taka. |
| Antioch | Eve ja originalnata web stranica so rezultatite. Nie sme prvi na spisok :-) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=11260506 |
| ZOTE | Nashite molitvi se uslisheni, povtorno im zablagodaruvam na site sho go podrzija Apelot vo vrska so objavuvanje na HLA genite. DNEVNIK Sreda 29 juni 2005 naslovna na Dnevnik: ГЕНЕТСКИ ИСТРАЖУВАЊА Македонците староседелци, Грците доселени од Африка Последните генетски истражувања на популацијата на Балканот уште еднаш го распламтија огнот под балканскиот котел и ги распалија националистичките страсти. На научните семинари, но и на многуте интернет-форуми, веќе неколку години се одвива полемична расправа за гените на балканските народи, практично уште од првото испитување на ХЛА-гените на Македонци, направено на крајот на минатиот век, кое покажа дека популацијата во Македонија има слични генетски фреквенции со жителите на медитеранските острови Крит, Корзика, Сицилија, Сардинија, а денешната грчка популација најголеми сличности има со жителите на супсахарска Африка. Авторите д-р Кочо Димитровски и д-р Антонио Арнаиз-Вилена се уште стојат зад резултатите од истражувањето и покрај тоа што се предмет на голема критика од грчката наука за ширење на таканаречениот бел национализам. Димитровски, кој сега е директор на Клиниката за трансфузиологија во Скопје, објаснува дека истражувањето било од чисто медицински цели и оти од него не треба да има се извлекуваат никакви политички тези. - Идејата беше да се испитаат ХЛА-гените, кои го одредуваат имунолошкиот систем на единката, за да може да се врши поуспешна трансплантација на органи. Ова особено е важно за трансплантацијата на коскена срцевина, клучна за лекување на луѓето заболени од леукемија. Колку е генетското совпаѓање на примачот и на дарителот поголемо, толку е поголема веројатноста организмот да ја прифати коскената срцевина. Бидејќи ХЛА-гените се пренесуваат со раѓање, а со оглед на тоа дека најголем број бракови се склучуваат меѓу припадници на ист етнос и на иста религија, во една популација ќе се среќава почесто една фреквенција на ХЛА-гени. Како резултат на тоа, направен е дендрограм, на кој може да се види генетската блискост на различни народи - вели Кочовски. Според дендрограмот, Македонците припаѓаат на постариот медитерански субстратум, како и Иберијците (вклучувајќи ги Баскијците), Северноафриканците, Италијанците, Французите, Евреите, Либанците, Турците (Анадолците), Ерменците и Иранците. Македонците не се поврзани со географски блиските Грци, кои живеат во поширокото подрачје на Атина, во егејскиот дел и на Кипар. Сличности има само меѓу Македонците и жителите на грчкиот остров Крит. Ова Арнаиз-Вилена го објаснувал со фактот дека до почетокот на 20 век Крит воопшто не бил грчки. Кочовски и Анаиз-Вилена се запознале пред шест години, токму на тој грчки остров, па се договориле да направат испитување на македонската популација, по што примероци на крв од 200 Македонци биле однесени во Мадрид, каде што биле истражени во независна лабораторија. Но, грчкиот истражувач Динекес Понтикос ги критикува Кочовски и Вилена и вели дека работат во функција на македонската пропаганда. "Факт е дека коавтори на студијата се неколкумина научници од ФИРОМ и дека таа е употребена за антигрчка пропаганда од националистичките сајтови. Но, дури и да го игнорираме овој факт, кој е Аранаиз-Вилена и во што верува тој? Тој припаѓа на луѓето што веруваат во теоријата дека старогрчката и староримската цивилизација настанале со мешање на Африканците и на Словените од средна и од источна Европа. Претпоставувам дека тој нема да се согласи дека неговата студија била политички мотивирана, нема да се согласи со експертското мислење на врвните научници кои ја критикуваат употребата на ХЛА-ДРБ 1 локусот за такви истражувања, тој ќе го негира дури и фактот дека е симпатизер на афроцентристичките теории, се со цел да докаже нешто што не може да се докаже на ниеден друг начин", пишува на својата веб-страница Понтикос. http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?pBroj=2797&stID=57926 Ova e dokaz deka koga Makedonskot narod e edinstven mnogu polesno moze da ja odbrani nashata mila Makedonija. |
| ZOTE | [IMG]http://tinypic.com/6hm4jn.jpg[/IMG] Eve ja naslovnata strana na deneshniot broj na DNEVNIK kade shto ubavo e napishano "Makedoncite starosedelci Grcite doseleni od Afrika" |
| toni_a | ne veruvav, ama ete uspea [img]http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/froehlich/a040.gif[/img] "...но и на многуте интернет-форуми..."[:D] |
| Inkognito | Novinarive sepak ja iskoristite mojata ideja :) Zabelezhete ja reakcijata na Dienekes Pontikos :) Но, грчкиот истражувач Динекес Понтикос ги критикува Кочовски и Вилена и вели дека работат во функција на македонската пропаганда. "Факт е дека коавтори на студијата се неколкумина научници од ФИРОМ и дека таа е употребена за антигрчка пропаганда од националистичките сајтови. Но, дури и да го игнорираме овој факт, кој е Аранаиз-Вилена и во што верува тој? Тој припаѓа на луѓето што веруваат во теоријата дека старогрчката и староримската цивилизација настанале со мешање на Африканците и на Словените од средна и од источна Европа. Претпоставувам дека тој нема да се согласи дека неговата студија била политички мотивирана, нема да се согласи со експертското мислење на врвните научници кои ја критикуваат употребата на ХЛА-ДРБ 1 локусот за такви истражувања, тој ќе го негира дури и фактот дека е симпатизер на афроцентристичките теории, се со цел да докаже нешто што не може да се докаже на ниеден друг начин", пишува на својата веб-страница Понтикос. Se utepal chovekot barajkji fakt da gi pobie rezultative i eve shto uspeal da najde :))) |
| mnik | [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] Stvarno e Keflijska Rabotava [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] Ke mu se fanat za ona na Vilena i ke vikaat Uzbuna[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] Gooooooooood Jooooob |
| f9 | Dienekes Pontikos and his HLA lies and deceit As the genetic evidence for racial mixing in Greece mounts up, Pontikos has resorted to ever increasing desperation and outright lies and deceit to try and shore up his criticism of 'March of the Titans.' A good example is Pontikos' comments on a study by a Spanish Spanish geneticist Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, which showed that a large number of Greek HLA alleles - those genes which are known to determine resistance to disease - cluster with Ethiopians and sub-Saharan Africans. Pontikos dismisses this study with the following comment: "This time, Arthur Kemp has used the writings of Spanish geneticist Antonio Arnaiz-Villena to support his theory that Greeks mixed with Sub-Saharan slaves. This is what world-leading geneticists Neil Risch from Stanford U., Alberto Piazza from the University of Torino and L. L. Cavalli-Sforza also from Stanford had to say on the interpretations of Arnaiz-Villena based on the HLA-DRB1 marker [1]: Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics. The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute." This is yet another example of Pontikos' outright deceit! This extract is from an article which appeared in the journal Nature The full article can be found here : www.nature.com/cgi-taf/Dy...15b_r.html (Subscription needed to access). The full article reads as follows ropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002) © Macmillan Publishers Ltd. Sir - Even though the controversial withdrawal of a paper on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews by the journal Human Immunology (see Nature 414, 382; 2001) is a minor episode compared with the tragedies caused by ethnic/religious conflicts over past decades, the issues involved are worth revisiting. The stated purpose of the paper by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. was to "examine the genetic relationships between the Palestinians and their neighbours (particularly the Jews) in order to: (1) discover the Palestinian origins, and (2) explain the historic basis of the present ... conflict between Palestinians and other Muslim countries with Israelite Jews". They conclude: "Jews and Palestinians share a very similar HLA genetic pool that supports a common ancient Canaanite origin. Therefore, the origin of the long-lasting Jewish-Palestinian hostility is the fight for land in ancient times." It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people. Our primary concern, however, is that the authors might be perceived to have been discriminated against for political, as opposed to legitimate scientific, reasons. Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics. The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute. We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit. Neil Risch Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA Alberto Piazza Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA It is important to note that the Arnaiz paper which deals with Macedonia and Greece is called "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks" and published in the magazine Tissue Antigens February 2001, vol. 57, no. 2, pp. 118-127. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entr...t=Abstract while the article from which Pontikos has extracted his quote refers to a completely separate article which appeared in Nature magazine, dealing with a debate about how Jews and Palestinians are closely related. So, what do we notice? 1. The quote Pontikos is using does not even refer to the Greek-Macedonian study, but instead another one dealing with genetic differences between Palestinians and Jews. It is therefore nothing less that a deliberate misrepresentation to project personal criticism of a report comparing Jews and Palestinians onto a separate report comparing Greeks and Macedonians, even if some of the data cross referenced. 2. Despite that deliberate misrepresentation on the part of Pontikos, let us have a look at what other people have to say about HLA genes and their usefulness in forensic genetics: and from this it is apparent that the opinions of the scientists Pontikos is quoting, reflect their own views only, and that there are many others who disagree with them: The highly polymorphic HLA system has been validated as useful for distinguishing and/or relating populations (and individuals) in many papers and in all the subsequent international workshops since the First International HLA Anthropology Workshop (Evian, 1970). HLA gene frequencies correlates with geographically related populations; the existence or absence of gene flow among neighbours may be assessed with the study of HLA frequencies and the corresponding genetic distances. (sources: Genetic relationships among various human populations indicated by MHC polymorphisms. In: Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 627-32; and Clayton J, Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype frequencies for HLA led in various ethnic groups In: Charron D, ed. Genetic diversily of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665-820.) The HLA system has been shown to be very polymorphic, able to be compared among ethnic groups and useful to distinguish populations (HLA allele and haplotype frequencies in Algerians. Relatedness to Spaniards and Basques. Hum Immunol 1995: 43: 259-68.) Here are but a few of the scientific articles which have all used HLA genes as forensic tools in tracking populations: - Imanishi T, Wakisaka A, Gojobori T. Genetic relationships among various human populations indicated by MHC polymorphisms. In: Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 627-32. - Clayton J, Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype frequencies for HLA led in various ethnic groups In: Charron D, ed. Genetic diversily of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665-820. - Izaabel H, Garchon HJ, Caillat-Zucman S et al. HLA class II DNA polyhiorphism in a Moroccan population from the Souss, Agadir area. Tissue Antigens 1998:51: 106-10, - Arguello R, Avakian H, Goldman JM, Madrigaij A. A novel method for simultaneous high resolution identification of HLA-A, HLA-B, and HLA-Cw alleles. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1996:93:10961-5. - Kimura A, Sasazuki T. Eleventh International Histocompatibility Workshop reference protocol for the HLA-DNA typing technique. In: Tauji K, Aizawa M Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 397-419. - Bignon JD, Fernandez-Vif MA. Protocols of the 12th International Histocompatibiity Workshop for typing of HLA class II alleles by DNA amplification by the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and hybridization with sequence-specific oligonucleotide probes (SSOP). In: Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol I. Paris: EDK, 1997: 584-95. - Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga K, Gojobori T. Estimation of allele and ha frequencies for HLA and complement loci. In: Tsuji K Aizawa M Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992: 76-9. - Imanishi T, Akaza T, Kimura A, Tokunaga K, Gojobori T. Allele and haplotype frequencies for HLA and complement loci in various ethnic groups. In: Tsuji K, Aizawa M, Sasazuki T, eds. HLA 1991. Vol 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992:1065-220. - Mehra MC, Rajalingam R, Kanga U et al. Genetic diversity of HLA in the populations of India, Sri Lanka and Iran. In: Charron D, ed. Genetic diversity of HLA, functional and medical implications. Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 314-20. - Roitberg-Tambur A, Witt CS, Friedmann A et al. Comparative analysis of HLA polymorphism at the serologic and molecular level in Moroccan and Ashkenazi Jews. Tissue Antigens 1995: 46: 104-10. - Martinez-Laso J, Gazit E, Gуmez-Casado E et al. HLA DR and DQ polymorphism in Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews: comparison with other Mediterraneans. Tissue Antigens 1996: 47:63-71. - Degas L Dausset J. Human migrations and linkage disequilibrium of HLA system. Inununogenetics 1974: 1: 195—210. In addition, Arnaiz-Villena himself, demonized by Pontikos because he does not like this particular HLA gene report, has previously published a huge number of articles, all dealing with HLA genes and their ability to track population – all without ever being challenged: - Arnaiz-Villena A, Benmamar D, Alvarez M et al. HLA allele and haplotype frequencies in Algerians. Relatedness to Spaniards and Basques. Hum Immunol 1995: 43: 259-68. - Arnaiz-Villena A, Timуn M, Corell A, Perez-Aciego P, Martin-Villa JM, Regueiro JR. Primary immunodeficiency caused by mutations in the gene encoding the CD3-y subunit of the T-lymphocyte receptor. N EngIf Med 1992: 327: 529-33. - Arnaiz-Villena A, Martinez-Laso J, Gуmez Casado E et al. Relatedness among Basques, Portuguese Spaniards, and Algerian studied by HLA allelic frequencies and haplotypes. Immunogenetics 1997: 47: 37—43. - Arnaiz-Villena A, Iliakis P, Gonzalez Hevilla M et al. The origin of Cretan population as determined by characterization of HLA alleles. Tissue Antigens 1999:53: 213—26. - Arnaiz-Villena A, Rodriguez de Cфrdoba 5, Vela F, Pascual JC, Cervero J, Bootello A. HLA antigens in a sample of the Spanish population: common features among Spaniards, Basques and Sardinians. Hum Genet 1981: 58: 344—8. - Martinez-Laso J, De Juan D, Martinez-Quiles N, Gomez-Casado E, Cuadrado E, Arnaiz Villena A. The contribution of the HLA-A, -B, -C and -DR, -DQ DNA typing to the study of the origins of Spaniards and Basques. Tissue Antigens 1995:45: 237—45. All of Arnaiz's reports, listed above, have been accepted by the scienitific community. When however he dares to publish a report pointing out how Jews and Palestinians are closely related, he gets reprimanded . . . Only a fool could not see the political agenda at work behind this sudden criticism of Arnaiz. In any event, it is of interest to look at exactly how the HLA genes grouped, and then we can see just how wrong Pontikos and his sources are: Here is a chart from the paper “HLA Genes in Moroccans” Gomez-Casadao, Arnaiz-Villena et. al) www.wafin.com/genes.pdf, which clearly maps out the differences: From this chart it is seen that it is UTTERLY SPURIOUS for Pontikos to claim that Arnaiz says there is actually a relationship between the Japanese and the Greeks. What Arnaiz-Villena ACTUALLY said about Greeks, Japanese and San (Southern African Bushmen) was the following: “Greeks are almost outliers together with Japanese and San (Bushmen).. . In fact, a gradient from Western (both African and European) to Middle Eastern Mediterraneans is observed, placing distinctly Greeks, Japanese and San (Bushmen) as outliers.” - (Gomez-Casadao, Arnaiz et. al. HLA Genes in Moroccans). To repeat that: all that Arnaiz-Villena’s work says is that Greeks, Japanese and San are all outliers compared to other Mediterranean populations. There is no reference to Arnaiz-Villena saying that Greeks, Japanese and San are actually related. HLA ALLELES ARE RACE SPECIFIC Central to Pontikos' criticism of Arnaiz is the assertion that HLA Alleles are not race specific. Unfortunately for Pontikos, they are, and the scientific evidence for this is overwhelming: Here are just a few of the vast numbers of studies which prove that HLA alleles are inherited and race specific: 1. www.centerspan.org/pubs/t...00285o.pdf “A Unique African HLA Haplotype May Identify a Population at Increased Risk for Kidney Graft Rejection” By Pauline C Creemers (immunology Department, UCT Medical School Cape Town, South Africa) and Delawir Khan (Nephrology Department, University of Cape Town Medical School) “Unique HLA alleles and MHC haplotypes have been identified in the Cape Colored and in the black South African populations. . . . Because HLA haplotypes are inherited ‘en-bloc’ as ancestral haplotypes that vary considerably between races.” (Source: Lee, TD, Lee A, Shi WX, HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ Antigens in black North Americans, Tissue Antigens, 1991, 37, 39; and Fraser PA, Moore B, Stein R, et al, Complotypes in individuals of African origin, frequencies and possible extended MHC haplotypes, Immunogenetics, 1990 – 31, 81 2. haem.nus.edu.sg/ishapd/2002/832.pdf “HLA Diversity: Detection and Impact on Unrelated Hematopoietic Stem Cell Donor Characterization and Selection” By Carlyn Katovich Hurley, Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington DC, USA, as published in the International Journal of Hematology, 76 (2002) Supplement II. “The alleles differ also in frequency in different populations. Thus, the search for a DRB1*0302 marched donor, for example, should be focused on populations of direct African origin since this allele is extremely rare in Caucasian or Oriental populations.” “These frequencies must be taken into account as patients are evaluated for unrelated donor transplantation in order to estimate their probability of finding an allele matched donor to design a search strategy.” 3. www.ebi.ac.uk/imgt/hla/he..._help.html The European Bioinformatics Institute has the following to say on race and HLA alleles: “The ethnic origins qualifier is used to describe the ethnic group and geographical location of the cell donor. The ethnic origin qualifier allows the user to query the ethnic group or geographical location of the cell donor. This can be used in population genetics studies of the HLA alleles. The origin of the cell donor can be used to infer which alleles are found in particular ethnic groups, and the geographical spread of HLA alleles.” The European Bioinformatics Institute has, on the site given above, a searchable HLA database where it is possible to look up specific HLA alleles and see in which racial groups they are dominant. 4. www.dalitstan.org/journal..._ocsv.html Here, the Indian based Dalistan Journal, discusses how HLA haplotypes were used to distinguish between Indo-European origin and non-Indo-European population elements in India:“Racial Origin of Caste System Vindicated” by Senthil Veliappa, Dalitstan Journal, Volume 2, Issue 6, Dec. 2000 “While all non-Dalit, non-Adivasi castes in North India are of Aryan descent, in South India only the Brahmins are Aryans. Here are two abstracts from two papers establishing that the South Indian Brahmins are of Caucasoid origin, in contrast to the Dravidians who are of Negroid stock [ Iyer ] [ Caste ] [ Ravi ] - Abstract - "Seventy-four randomly sampled Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu and preachers and followers of the Advaita philosophy, living in Madurai, were studied for their HLA-A, HLA-B, HLA-C, HLA-DR, HLA-DQ, C4A, C4B, and BF polymorphisms and compared with other populations. HLA alleles A1, A11.1, A24, A33, B35, B44, B51, B52, B57, Cw4, Cw6, Cw7, DR4, DR7, DR8, DR10, DR11, DR15, and DQ1 and C4A*3, C4A*4, C4A*6, C4A*Q0, C4B*1, and BF*S were represented in 15% of the samples studied. HLA alleles A25, A69, Cw3, Cw8, B45, B14, B39, B18, B50, and B56 were not identified. Various populations of Tamil Nadu were compared, but the Iyers of Madurai formed a separate cluster with Sourashtrans of Madurai and major group 4 (various Brahmin populations of Tamil Nadu); hill tribes (Irulas, Malayalis, and Badagas) and caste groups in the plains (Kallars and Nadars) formed distinct clusters. Comparison of the Iyers with other Indian and world populations revealed that Iyers form a distinct branch of the Indo-European and Central Asian tree. The Bhargavas of Lucknow, another Brahmin caste group from Uttar Pradesh, did not cluster with the Iyers but clustered with Central Asian populations. The Punjabis of Delhi clustered with European and Middle Eastern populations.” (Sources: [Caste] = ` HLA antigens in South India: II. Selected caste groups of Tamil Nadu', Rajasekar, R., Kakkanaiah, V. N. and Pitchappan, R. M., Department of Immunology, School of Biological Sciences, Madurai Kamaraj University, India; Tissue Antigens. 30(3):113-8, September 1987. [Iyer] = ` HLA affinities of Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu, South India.', Balakrishnan, K., Pitchappan, R. M., Suzuki, K., Kumar, U. S., Santhakumari, R. and Tokunaga, K., Unit of Immunogenetics, School of Biological Sciences, Madurai Kamaraj University, Madurai, India; Human Biology. 68 (4) pp. 523-37, August, 1996. 5. www.askemilyss.com/bites/...1/race.htm HCV Info and Support Monthly Magazine July 2001 “Race and HLA-II Alleles Combine to Influence Hepatitis C Persistence” “WESTPORT, CT (Reuters Health) Jul 26 - Race combines with class II human leukocyte antigens (HLAs) to determine whether hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection persists, according to a report in the July 1st issue of the Journal of Infectious Diseases. Vigorous CD4+ T-cell responses, mediated by class II HLAs, contribute to viral clearance in early HCV infection, the authors explain, and a previous association between viral clearance and the class II allele DQB1*0301 was shown in European individuals. Dr. Chloe L. Thio from the Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions in Baltimore and colleagues sought to determine whether other class II HLA alleles contributed to viral clearance and whether these contributions differed according to the race of the individual. Besides confirming the increased frequency of DQB1*0301 in subjects with viral clearance, the authors report a significantly increased frequency of DQB1*0501 and DRB1*0101, but only in whites. In combination, the DQB1*0501-DRB1*0101 haplotype was associated with HCV clearance in whites, but not in blacks, the report indicates. Similarly, DRB1*0301 and the haplotypes DQB1*0201-DRB1*0301 and DQA1*0501-DQB1*0201-DRB1*0301 were more strongly associated with viral persistence in whites than in blacks, the researchers note. "The genes associated with HCV outcomes are different based on ethnic groups," Dr. Thio told Reuters Health. "The hope is to find genes that are associated with HCV outcomes to help us understand HCV pathogenesis which could help us to find treatments. Such HLA findings can also be used in vaccine development." |
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